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On December 15 2011 15:15 Gin-san wrote:Show nested quote +On December 15 2011 15:10 bobohobo wrote:On December 15 2011 15:04 Stringy wrote:
I really don't like that they're trying to say that Naniwa didn't earn his spot through MLG even though in the agreement with MLG they have on their own site it clearly shows Naniwa earned his Code S status... :/ It appears MLG misunderstood the agreement and hyped it up themselves. MLG Providence did not have 4 Korean invites. 3 of them were seeded based on their MLG rank (past performance) and MVP fought his way through the open bracket. Clearly, the GSL-MLG exchange program was not applicable to MLG Providence. I don't know why MLG would think that the top placed foreigner would get a GSL code S seed. Both GOM and MLG owes us an explanation on this matter. There seems to be huge miscommunication between the two parties. But anyways, Naniwa has nothing to do with this anymore, that matter has been settled and justice delivered. Now the focus is on where did the communication go wrong and why wasn't it addressed earlier? http://pro.majorleaguegaming.com/news/mc-mma-bomber-and-mvp-to-mlg-providenceThe TOP4 koreans did get their flights paid. On this matter the GSL-MLG exchange didnt change. GOM are just being dickheards for bending their rules like they want.
Getting their flights paid doesn't mean they were there because of the GSL-MLG exchange program. If you go here:
http://wiki.teamliquid.net/starcraft2/2011_MLG_Pro_Circuit/Providence/Format
Top 16 Ranked players will be seeded directly into the Championship Winners' Bracket (no Group Stage).
Top 4 players from the Open Bracket will also be seeded into the Championship Winners' Bracket (these players are seeded #17-#20).
The final 12 players from the Open Losers' Bracket will be seeded into the Championship Losers' Bracket (these players are seeded #21-#32).
It makes no mention of direct seeding of players due to the GSL-MLG exchange program. Then if you go here:
http://wiki.teamliquid.net/starcraft2/2011_MLG_Pro_Circuit/Rankings
You can see that before MLG Providence, MC, MMA, Bomber and MVP were ranked in top16 already and that's how they were able to participate in Providence. Their participation was not due to the GSL-MLG exchange program. In other words, the GSL-MLG exchange program was not in effect for MLG Providence. So there shouldn't be any expectation that the top placed non code S player would get a GSL code S seed either. MLG hyped it up themselves, there's all there be said.
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On December 15 2011 15:22 Stringy wrote:Show nested quote +On December 15 2011 14:58 Lobo2me wrote:
If what GOMTV says is true and has been true all along, they still owe a huge apology to MLG, because MLG seemed to think all along that Providence top 3 was a qualification for Code S as it had been.
It makes me think of when Sony announced the Play Station as a joint project with Nintendo at CES 1991. The day after, Nintendo announced "We're actually not working with Sony any more, we're working with Phillips instead". That ended up with Sony finishing the Playstation on their own, and getting the Final Fantasy series which used to be Nintendo.
MLG now looks silly for saying 5 times that Naniwa earned a spot at Code S, when GOMTV pretty much ended up saying "We've altered the deal. Pray we do not alter it further". They were contractually obligated to provide Code S status to the highest placed finisher who didn't already have the status at all of the 2011 MLG Pro Circuit events, if what GOM says is true it shouldn't effect anything that happened in 2011.. Its not any sort of a deal if you alter your terms and don't tell the other party about it lol...
going by what we know, mlg was also contractually obligated to fly in 4 korean players directly into mlg providence seeding, which they didn't.
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On December 15 2011 06:39 ProxyKnoxy wrote:
Even MLG was under the impression that NaNiwa had his Code S spot earned through MLG Providence... I don't know why you would suddenly change it for the last event.
Maybe I'm not seeing something
I think this is relatively spot on, literally everyone assumed and believed that Naniwa was going to code s. Mlg, Professional players, casters, the community on both sides of the world. It just seems almost like GOM is trying to attempt to cleverly make up some BS excuse.
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If GOM was seriously looking for loopholes in the agreement then some sort of trust between organizations had to have been broken right? And the fact that GOM states that it was only for the 2011 season just implies that they don't plan to work with MLG again unless a new agreement is drafted. Whatever the case, I don't like it. I think the arrangements made in 2011 were absolutely perfect for the players and for both leagues.
Also, the wording of MLG's statement regarding the exchange program for Providence implies that it was still going on.
As the last Korean player standing in Orlando, MC has earned a League Exchange Invitation to Providence. Our four highest Korean finishers this year (three of whom were MLG Champions) will have their trips to the National Championships covered. Their bracket seeds will be based on the points they've earned in competitions this Season. Congratulations to MMA, MVP, Bomber, and MC. http://pro.majorleaguegaming.com/news/mc-mma-bomber-and-mvp-to-mlg-providence
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http://www.majorleaguegaming.com/news/mc-mma-bomber-and-mvp-to-mlg-providence
As the last Korean player standing in Orlando, MC has earned a League Exchange Invitation to Providence. Our four highest Korean finishers this year (three of whom were MLG Champions) will have their trips to the National Championships covered. Their bracket seeds will be based on the points they've earned in competitions this Season. Congratulations to MMA, MVP, Bomber, and MC on their accomplishments and we will see each of them in Providence fighting it out for the $50,000 first prize.
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On December 15 2011 08:46 Kieofire wrote:But GOM says the 2011 season. The next Code S is in 2012, so yeah.
No. GOM says Code is awarded from all MLG in 2011, it says nothing about the GSL having to be the same year.
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On December 15 2011 15:21 JoeSchmoe wrote:Show nested quote +On December 15 2011 15:14 m0ck wrote:On December 15 2011 15:07 JoeSchmoe wrote:On December 15 2011 14:57 m0ck wrote:On December 15 2011 14:43 diophan wrote:On December 15 2011 14:39 m0ck wrote:On December 15 2011 14:35 akalarry wrote:On December 15 2011 14:29 Bogeyman wrote:
Wait what?
I was just starting to think it was all good the way it was, but now they say they changed the way they invite players and that Naniwa didn't get a code S spot in MLG Providence.
What I want to know is who the hell was informed about this up until just now? Was there anyone at MLG who knew this at Providence? I sincerely hope you're not taking this the wrong way and ban me or something, but as I realize what this all entails I'm getting pretty pissed, and I've even been calm throughout this whole debacle up until now.
So you silently let all the players at MLG Providence and all the viewers rooting for our favorite players think they would get a Code S seed so long as they were the top player in the top 3 that wasn't already in Code S. You silently let all of us get our hopes up seeing our favorite players win match after match, getting that much closer to their dreams and the hopes of their fans.
This isn't even about Naniwa anymore. Screw that, I don't care about that anymore. You didn't inform a living soul as you changed the rules so that the struggles (towards getting that Code S seed, I'm not talking about the prize money for MLG Providence) of all those players would mean absolutely nothing, giving yourselves the power to pick whoever you saw fit among the top players around the world. That is utterly disrespectful towards the players and the fans.
So please, I implore you, tell me that isn't the case. Show us that you had communicated this to the players or their teams or the MLG Staff! Someone, step up and say "I knew about this all along, Naniwa never actually had a seed"! Show us the announcement where you explained how the new deal would work for MLG Providence and forward! Or maybe it never actually was a "deal" per se but rather a "buddy agreement" or something that you can change without notice?
Please someone explain to me what I'm missing here, or to me at least this whole controversy just exploded. if naniwa gets code s seed from the mlg-gsl exchange program, did MLG pay and send 4 players and seed them directly into that tournaments championship bracket? What you're doing is akin to sticking your fingers in your ears and going *LA LA LA LA LA*. Yes, let's ignore that it was everyones belief that naniwa had qualified for code S. Him, his team, MLG and the foreign community as a whole. And that GOM never took any steps to correct this belief, until the day after the match between naniwa and nestea took place. And that 1) GOM originally called it a ban on twitter (until later removed), 2) according to some it was stated on their homepage (until later removed) 3) it was referred to as such by Tastosis 4) the rules for their cooperation with MLG implies it 5) Naniwa uncorrected referred to his spot on the media day at the blizzard cup. And that MLG themselves refer to the league exchange program for Providence: http://www.majorleaguegaming.com/news/mc-mma-bomber-and-mvp-to-mlg-providenceAre you being serious? Yes and what you link to is completely untruthful. Bomber, MC, and MMA were placed in the champion bracket because of their past performance. MLG did NOT pay for MVP to travel, that was QxG, as you can confirm by looking in the thread announcing the partnership on TL. Further the exchange program said they were be seeded, which MVP was not. So you're just trusting MLG over GOM, which I suppose you're entitled to do. It appears to me that they both terminated the agreement for Providence, or it wasn't applicable for some reason, and for some suspicious reason this wasn't communicated, perhaps because it was assumed GOM would be willing to give one of its foreigner seeds out to the winner of Providence, so it wouldn't actually matter. Can you give me any sensible explanation for why GOM would wait from Providence and until the day after the naniwa vs nestea match before informaing anyone (including a player who was establishing himself in S Korea under the impression that he had a code S seed) of the fact that Naniwa did in fact not have a birth for code S? And why GOM themselves originally referred to what happened to naniwa as a ban, that tastosis referred to naniwa as having his qualification spot removed and that they didn't correct naniwa when he referred to his spot in code S in the blizzard cup media day interviews? To take GOM at their word, they have deliberately misled, or for a month failed to correct, a player, a team, MLG and the whole western community about whether Providence would provide a code S spot. Do you want to believe that about GOM? Do you not find it a tad more believable, that rather this is a story that is being spun in order to handle a controversial situation? most ridiculous argument ever. it's not GOM's obligation to find out what's happening in the western community. it's not even their first language anyways. this is like expecting MLG to frequent PlayXP and Thisisgame to find out how korean netizens are reacting. here's a better question. why did GOM never contact Naniwa to inform him about his code s seeding when they have done so for all the past participants in MLG who received one? here's an answer, because there was no code s seeding. No, this is like expecting MLG to react if their partner GOM announces on their homepage, that after having won GSL December, Jjakji gets an automatic seed into the winners bracket of the first coming MLG, yet that not being the case. I would certainly expect MLG to correct that misinformation. Why wouldn't they? But you think naniwa should have deduced that he in fact didn't have a birth for code S, since it was only the MLG site, admins at MLG and all major news sources that told him that he had received such a spot, and not infact GOM? except your comparison fails because GomTV.net is a english site. the equivalent comparison would be for expecting MLG to find out about the news on a korean site. funny you have the expectation that koreans should frequent english sites and keep up to date with the latest information in the western thing but not the other way around. that doesn't even make sense. why the hell would Gom contact Naniwa to tell him that he didn't have a code s spot if they didn't even know he thought he had a code s spot?
You may not know this, but GOM.tv has several representatives that posts on Team Liquid. You may also not know that GOM.tv employs 5 english-speaking casters, as well as a translator. Maybe you've heard of them. Do you really want to argue that for a month, GOM was unaware that the whole western community was under the belief that naniwa had a code S seed that he won at Providence? An event at which two of their casters worked.
GOM wouldn't necessarily contact Naniwa, though why wouldn't they, but certainly MLG and possibly TL and inform them that their information, that Naniwa has received a spot in code S, is in fact wrong. Do you not think that it is in GOMs interest to avoid misinformation?
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Ok Look. It was Naniwa's right to do whatever he wants to do in a game (almost), and you promised him that Code S spot and than you saw him do something that you didn't like. Without arguing the merits of what he did, let's just talk about you GOM.tv
Usually a player does something stupid and the community gives him shit. This is usually more than enough to correct the problem or at least draw enough attention to it to set a precedent for everyone else. But you saw an opportunity to be large and in charge and use your power to be a kind of blade of justice, and set your blade upon the guy whom the SC2 community was not appreciating for his actions.
This was probably a PR move. You probably thought, hey, everyone is beating up on Naniwa, we didn't like what he did either, especially because he disrespected a Korean player, let's use our ability to beat up on him some more. You probably thought Everyone would be kissing your feet for this, for being the Superman Police Officer of the community.
But you are not the superman of the community, you are not the cops. The community is the supermen and the cops and the hippies and the trolls and the players. The community praises and rejects players FAR FAR FAR FAR stronger than you EVER could.
I think what people are mostly annoyed with is that you wanted to present yourselves as the ban-hammer on the community. Gom.tv you are not the only SC2 enthusiasts, not the only Sc2 organization, and not the only SC2 tournament. The community as a whole are the powerful ones, bear that in mind before you dig yourselves a deeper hole.
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On December 15 2011 15:28 m0ck wrote:Show nested quote +On December 15 2011 15:21 JoeSchmoe wrote:On December 15 2011 15:14 m0ck wrote:On December 15 2011 15:07 JoeSchmoe wrote:On December 15 2011 14:57 m0ck wrote:On December 15 2011 14:43 diophan wrote:On December 15 2011 14:39 m0ck wrote:On December 15 2011 14:35 akalarry wrote:On December 15 2011 14:29 Bogeyman wrote:
Wait what?
I was just starting to think it was all good the way it was, but now they say they changed the way they invite players and that Naniwa didn't get a code S spot in MLG Providence.
What I want to know is who the hell was informed about this up until just now? Was there anyone at MLG who knew this at Providence? I sincerely hope you're not taking this the wrong way and ban me or something, but as I realize what this all entails I'm getting pretty pissed, and I've even been calm throughout this whole debacle up until now.
So you silently let all the players at MLG Providence and all the viewers rooting for our favorite players think they would get a Code S seed so long as they were the top player in the top 3 that wasn't already in Code S. You silently let all of us get our hopes up seeing our favorite players win match after match, getting that much closer to their dreams and the hopes of their fans.
This isn't even about Naniwa anymore. Screw that, I don't care about that anymore. You didn't inform a living soul as you changed the rules so that the struggles (towards getting that Code S seed, I'm not talking about the prize money for MLG Providence) of all those players would mean absolutely nothing, giving yourselves the power to pick whoever you saw fit among the top players around the world. That is utterly disrespectful towards the players and the fans.
So please, I implore you, tell me that isn't the case. Show us that you had communicated this to the players or their teams or the MLG Staff! Someone, step up and say "I knew about this all along, Naniwa never actually had a seed"! Show us the announcement where you explained how the new deal would work for MLG Providence and forward! Or maybe it never actually was a "deal" per se but rather a "buddy agreement" or something that you can change without notice?
Please someone explain to me what I'm missing here, or to me at least this whole controversy just exploded. if naniwa gets code s seed from the mlg-gsl exchange program, did MLG pay and send 4 players and seed them directly into that tournaments championship bracket? What you're doing is akin to sticking your fingers in your ears and going *LA LA LA LA LA*. Yes, let's ignore that it was everyones belief that naniwa had qualified for code S. Him, his team, MLG and the foreign community as a whole. And that GOM never took any steps to correct this belief, until the day after the match between naniwa and nestea took place. And that 1) GOM originally called it a ban on twitter (until later removed), 2) according to some it was stated on their homepage (until later removed) 3) it was referred to as such by Tastosis 4) the rules for their cooperation with MLG implies it 5) Naniwa uncorrected referred to his spot on the media day at the blizzard cup. And that MLG themselves refer to the league exchange program for Providence: http://www.majorleaguegaming.com/news/mc-mma-bomber-and-mvp-to-mlg-providenceAre you being serious? Yes and what you link to is completely untruthful. Bomber, MC, and MMA were placed in the champion bracket because of their past performance. MLG did NOT pay for MVP to travel, that was QxG, as you can confirm by looking in the thread announcing the partnership on TL. Further the exchange program said they were be seeded, which MVP was not. So you're just trusting MLG over GOM, which I suppose you're entitled to do. It appears to me that they both terminated the agreement for Providence, or it wasn't applicable for some reason, and for some suspicious reason this wasn't communicated, perhaps because it was assumed GOM would be willing to give one of its foreigner seeds out to the winner of Providence, so it wouldn't actually matter. Can you give me any sensible explanation for why GOM would wait from Providence and until the day after the naniwa vs nestea match before informaing anyone (including a player who was establishing himself in S Korea under the impression that he had a code S seed) of the fact that Naniwa did in fact not have a birth for code S? And why GOM themselves originally referred to what happened to naniwa as a ban, that tastosis referred to naniwa as having his qualification spot removed and that they didn't correct naniwa when he referred to his spot in code S in the blizzard cup media day interviews? To take GOM at their word, they have deliberately misled, or for a month failed to correct, a player, a team, MLG and the whole western community about whether Providence would provide a code S spot. Do you want to believe that about GOM? Do you not find it a tad more believable, that rather this is a story that is being spun in order to handle a controversial situation? most ridiculous argument ever. it's not GOM's obligation to find out what's happening in the western community. it's not even their first language anyways. this is like expecting MLG to frequent PlayXP and Thisisgame to find out how korean netizens are reacting. here's a better question. why did GOM never contact Naniwa to inform him about his code s seeding when they have done so for all the past participants in MLG who received one? here's an answer, because there was no code s seeding. No, this is like expecting MLG to react if their partner GOM announces on their homepage, that after having won GSL December, Jjakji gets an automatic seed into the winners bracket of the first coming MLG, yet that not being the case. I would certainly expect MLG to correct that misinformation. Why wouldn't they? But you think naniwa should have deduced that he in fact didn't have a birth for code S, since it was only the MLG site, admins at MLG and all major news sources that told him that he had received such a spot, and not infact GOM? except your comparison fails because GomTV.net is a english site. the equivalent comparison would be for expecting MLG to find out about the news on a korean site. funny you have the expectation that koreans should frequent english sites and keep up to date with the latest information in the western thing but not the other way around. that doesn't even make sense. why the hell would Gom contact Naniwa to tell him that he didn't have a code s spot if they didn't even know he thought he had a code s spot? You may not know this, but GOM.tv has several representatives that posts on Team Liquid. You may also not know that GOM.tv employs 5 english-speaking casters, as well as a translator. Maybe you've heard of them. Do you really want to argue that for a month, GOM was unaware that the whole western community was under the belief that naniwa had a code S seed that he won at Providence? An event at which two of their casters worked. GOM wouldn't necessarily contact Naniwa, though why wouldn't they, but certainly MLG and possibly TL and inform them that their information, that Naniwa has received a spot in code S, is in fact wrong. Do you not think that it is in GOMs interest to avoid misinformation?
of course i know. but how often do they frequent this site? not often. do they look at every topic? obviously not and why should they? do MLGs have korean representatives frequenting korean websites? no. was naniwa's announcement to code S in big red letters at the top of the site? no. do you really want to argue that the reason why GOM never contacted Naniwa about his code S when they did for everyone else who got it is because they anticipated the moment that Naniwa would leave a game against Nestea thus forcing them to retract the fact that the code s spot was ever awarded? give me a break. don't you think it is in MLG's interest to avoid misinformation? see how easy I can turn that around?
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On December 15 2011 15:30 Newb_Chronicles wrote:
Ok Look. It was Naniwa's right to do whatever he wants to do in a game (almost), and you promised him that Code S spot and than you saw him do something that you didn't like. Without arguing the merits of what he did, let's just talk about you GOM.tv
Usually a player does something stupid and the community gives him shit. This is usually more than enough to correct the problem or at least draw enough attention to it to set a precedent for everyone else. But you saw an opportunity to be large and in charge and use your power to be a kind of blade of justice, and set your blade upon the guy whom the SC2 community was not appreciating for his actions.
This was probably a PR move. You probably thought, hey, everyone is beating up on Naniwa, we didn't like what he did either, especially because he disrespected a Korean player, let's use our ability to beat up on him some more. You probably thought Everyone would be kissing your feet for this, for being the Superman Police Officer of the community.
But you are not the superman of the community, you are not the cops. The community is the supermen and the cops and the hippies and the trolls and the players. The community praises and rejects players FAR FAR FAR FAR stronger than you EVER could.
I think what people are mostly annoyed with is that you wanted to present yourselves as the ban-hammer on the community. Gom.tv you are not the only SC2 enthusiasts, not the only Sc2 organization, and not the only SC2 tournament. The community as a whole are the powerful ones, bear that in mind before you dig yourselves a deeper hole.
Well,i think there is a miscommunication between MLG and GSL.It COULD be that GOM bend the rules but we need to have someone from MLG or GOM to clarify the situation.
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On December 15 2011 15:36 JoeSchmoe wrote:Show nested quote +On December 15 2011 15:28 m0ck wrote:On December 15 2011 15:21 JoeSchmoe wrote:On December 15 2011 15:14 m0ck wrote:On December 15 2011 15:07 JoeSchmoe wrote:On December 15 2011 14:57 m0ck wrote:On December 15 2011 14:43 diophan wrote:On December 15 2011 14:39 m0ck wrote:On December 15 2011 14:35 akalarry wrote:On December 15 2011 14:29 Bogeyman wrote:
Wait what?
I was just starting to think it was all good the way it was, but now they say they changed the way they invite players and that Naniwa didn't get a code S spot in MLG Providence.
What I want to know is who the hell was informed about this up until just now? Was there anyone at MLG who knew this at Providence? I sincerely hope you're not taking this the wrong way and ban me or something, but as I realize what this all entails I'm getting pretty pissed, and I've even been calm throughout this whole debacle up until now.
So you silently let all the players at MLG Providence and all the viewers rooting for our favorite players think they would get a Code S seed so long as they were the top player in the top 3 that wasn't already in Code S. You silently let all of us get our hopes up seeing our favorite players win match after match, getting that much closer to their dreams and the hopes of their fans.
This isn't even about Naniwa anymore. Screw that, I don't care about that anymore. You didn't inform a living soul as you changed the rules so that the struggles (towards getting that Code S seed, I'm not talking about the prize money for MLG Providence) of all those players would mean absolutely nothing, giving yourselves the power to pick whoever you saw fit among the top players around the world. That is utterly disrespectful towards the players and the fans.
So please, I implore you, tell me that isn't the case. Show us that you had communicated this to the players or their teams or the MLG Staff! Someone, step up and say "I knew about this all along, Naniwa never actually had a seed"! Show us the announcement where you explained how the new deal would work for MLG Providence and forward! Or maybe it never actually was a "deal" per se but rather a "buddy agreement" or something that you can change without notice?
Please someone explain to me what I'm missing here, or to me at least this whole controversy just exploded. if naniwa gets code s seed from the mlg-gsl exchange program, did MLG pay and send 4 players and seed them directly into that tournaments championship bracket? What you're doing is akin to sticking your fingers in your ears and going *LA LA LA LA LA*. Yes, let's ignore that it was everyones belief that naniwa had qualified for code S. Him, his team, MLG and the foreign community as a whole. And that GOM never took any steps to correct this belief, until the day after the match between naniwa and nestea took place. And that 1) GOM originally called it a ban on twitter (until later removed), 2) according to some it was stated on their homepage (until later removed) 3) it was referred to as such by Tastosis 4) the rules for their cooperation with MLG implies it 5) Naniwa uncorrected referred to his spot on the media day at the blizzard cup. And that MLG themselves refer to the league exchange program for Providence: http://www.majorleaguegaming.com/news/mc-mma-bomber-and-mvp-to-mlg-providenceAre you being serious? Yes and what you link to is completely untruthful. Bomber, MC, and MMA were placed in the champion bracket because of their past performance. MLG did NOT pay for MVP to travel, that was QxG, as you can confirm by looking in the thread announcing the partnership on TL. Further the exchange program said they were be seeded, which MVP was not. So you're just trusting MLG over GOM, which I suppose you're entitled to do. It appears to me that they both terminated the agreement for Providence, or it wasn't applicable for some reason, and for some suspicious reason this wasn't communicated, perhaps because it was assumed GOM would be willing to give one of its foreigner seeds out to the winner of Providence, so it wouldn't actually matter. Can you give me any sensible explanation for why GOM would wait from Providence and until the day after the naniwa vs nestea match before informaing anyone (including a player who was establishing himself in S Korea under the impression that he had a code S seed) of the fact that Naniwa did in fact not have a birth for code S? And why GOM themselves originally referred to what happened to naniwa as a ban, that tastosis referred to naniwa as having his qualification spot removed and that they didn't correct naniwa when he referred to his spot in code S in the blizzard cup media day interviews? To take GOM at their word, they have deliberately misled, or for a month failed to correct, a player, a team, MLG and the whole western community about whether Providence would provide a code S spot. Do you want to believe that about GOM? Do you not find it a tad more believable, that rather this is a story that is being spun in order to handle a controversial situation? most ridiculous argument ever. it's not GOM's obligation to find out what's happening in the western community. it's not even their first language anyways. this is like expecting MLG to frequent PlayXP and Thisisgame to find out how korean netizens are reacting. here's a better question. why did GOM never contact Naniwa to inform him about his code s seeding when they have done so for all the past participants in MLG who received one? here's an answer, because there was no code s seeding. No, this is like expecting MLG to react if their partner GOM announces on their homepage, that after having won GSL December, Jjakji gets an automatic seed into the winners bracket of the first coming MLG, yet that not being the case. I would certainly expect MLG to correct that misinformation. Why wouldn't they? But you think naniwa should have deduced that he in fact didn't have a birth for code S, since it was only the MLG site, admins at MLG and all major news sources that told him that he had received such a spot, and not infact GOM? except your comparison fails because GomTV.net is a english site. the equivalent comparison would be for expecting MLG to find out about the news on a korean site. funny you have the expectation that koreans should frequent english sites and keep up to date with the latest information in the western thing but not the other way around. that doesn't even make sense. why the hell would Gom contact Naniwa to tell him that he didn't have a code s spot if they didn't even know he thought he had a code s spot? You may not know this, but GOM.tv has several representatives that posts on Team Liquid. You may also not know that GOM.tv employs 5 english-speaking casters, as well as a translator. Maybe you've heard of them. Do you really want to argue that for a month, GOM was unaware that the whole western community was under the belief that naniwa had a code S seed that he won at Providence? An event at which two of their casters worked. GOM wouldn't necessarily contact Naniwa, though why wouldn't they, but certainly MLG and possibly TL and inform them that their information, that Naniwa has received a spot in code S, is in fact wrong. Do you not think that it is in GOMs interest to avoid misinformation? of course i know. but how often do they frequent this site? not often. do they look at every topic? obviously not and why should they? do MLGs have korean representatives frequenting korean websites? no. was naniwa's announcement to code S in big red letters at the top of the site? no. do you really want to argue that the reason why GOM never contacted Naniwa about his code S when they did for everyone else who got it is because they anticipated the moment that Naniwa would leave a game against Nestea thus forcing them to retract the fact that the code s spot was ever awarded? give me a break. don't you think it is in MLG's interest to avoid misinformation? see how easy I can turn that around?
They don't need to frequent any site, that's not the issue here. They partnered up with MLG, a business. They are therefore obligated contractually to tell MLG what's up regarding the whole affair of Code S seeding. MLG then tells us, and if Gom feels nice, they tell us as well. But the fact is they didn't tell MLG (the organization) anything. They don't need to frequent these sites but they do need to inform their business partners.
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On December 15 2011 15:28 m0ck wrote:Show nested quote +On December 15 2011 15:21 JoeSchmoe wrote:On December 15 2011 15:14 m0ck wrote:On December 15 2011 15:07 JoeSchmoe wrote:On December 15 2011 14:57 m0ck wrote:On December 15 2011 14:43 diophan wrote:On December 15 2011 14:39 m0ck wrote:On December 15 2011 14:35 akalarry wrote:On December 15 2011 14:29 Bogeyman wrote:
Wait what?
I was just starting to think it was all good the way it was, but now they say they changed the way they invite players and that Naniwa didn't get a code S spot in MLG Providence.
What I want to know is who the hell was informed about this up until just now? Was there anyone at MLG who knew this at Providence? I sincerely hope you're not taking this the wrong way and ban me or something, but as I realize what this all entails I'm getting pretty pissed, and I've even been calm throughout this whole debacle up until now.
So you silently let all the players at MLG Providence and all the viewers rooting for our favorite players think they would get a Code S seed so long as they were the top player in the top 3 that wasn't already in Code S. You silently let all of us get our hopes up seeing our favorite players win match after match, getting that much closer to their dreams and the hopes of their fans.
This isn't even about Naniwa anymore. Screw that, I don't care about that anymore. You didn't inform a living soul as you changed the rules so that the struggles (towards getting that Code S seed, I'm not talking about the prize money for MLG Providence) of all those players would mean absolutely nothing, giving yourselves the power to pick whoever you saw fit among the top players around the world. That is utterly disrespectful towards the players and the fans.
So please, I implore you, tell me that isn't the case. Show us that you had communicated this to the players or their teams or the MLG Staff! Someone, step up and say "I knew about this all along, Naniwa never actually had a seed"! Show us the announcement where you explained how the new deal would work for MLG Providence and forward! Or maybe it never actually was a "deal" per se but rather a "buddy agreement" or something that you can change without notice?
Please someone explain to me what I'm missing here, or to me at least this whole controversy just exploded. if naniwa gets code s seed from the mlg-gsl exchange program, did MLG pay and send 4 players and seed them directly into that tournaments championship bracket? What you're doing is akin to sticking your fingers in your ears and going *LA LA LA LA LA*. Yes, let's ignore that it was everyones belief that naniwa had qualified for code S. Him, his team, MLG and the foreign community as a whole. And that GOM never took any steps to correct this belief, until the day after the match between naniwa and nestea took place. And that 1) GOM originally called it a ban on twitter (until later removed), 2) according to some it was stated on their homepage (until later removed) 3) it was referred to as such by Tastosis 4) the rules for their cooperation with MLG implies it 5) Naniwa uncorrected referred to his spot on the media day at the blizzard cup. And that MLG themselves refer to the league exchange program for Providence: http://www.majorleaguegaming.com/news/mc-mma-bomber-and-mvp-to-mlg-providenceAre you being serious? Yes and what you link to is completely untruthful. Bomber, MC, and MMA were placed in the champion bracket because of their past performance. MLG did NOT pay for MVP to travel, that was QxG, as you can confirm by looking in the thread announcing the partnership on TL. Further the exchange program said they were be seeded, which MVP was not. So you're just trusting MLG over GOM, which I suppose you're entitled to do. It appears to me that they both terminated the agreement for Providence, or it wasn't applicable for some reason, and for some suspicious reason this wasn't communicated, perhaps because it was assumed GOM would be willing to give one of its foreigner seeds out to the winner of Providence, so it wouldn't actually matter. Can you give me any sensible explanation for why GOM would wait from Providence and until the day after the naniwa vs nestea match before informaing anyone (including a player who was establishing himself in S Korea under the impression that he had a code S seed) of the fact that Naniwa did in fact not have a birth for code S? And why GOM themselves originally referred to what happened to naniwa as a ban, that tastosis referred to naniwa as having his qualification spot removed and that they didn't correct naniwa when he referred to his spot in code S in the blizzard cup media day interviews? To take GOM at their word, they have deliberately misled, or for a month failed to correct, a player, a team, MLG and the whole western community about whether Providence would provide a code S spot. Do you want to believe that about GOM? Do you not find it a tad more believable, that rather this is a story that is being spun in order to handle a controversial situation? most ridiculous argument ever. it's not GOM's obligation to find out what's happening in the western community. it's not even their first language anyways. this is like expecting MLG to frequent PlayXP and Thisisgame to find out how korean netizens are reacting. here's a better question. why did GOM never contact Naniwa to inform him about his code s seeding when they have done so for all the past participants in MLG who received one? here's an answer, because there was no code s seeding. No, this is like expecting MLG to react if their partner GOM announces on their homepage, that after having won GSL December, Jjakji gets an automatic seed into the winners bracket of the first coming MLG, yet that not being the case. I would certainly expect MLG to correct that misinformation. Why wouldn't they? But you think naniwa should have deduced that he in fact didn't have a birth for code S, since it was only the MLG site, admins at MLG and all major news sources that told him that he had received such a spot, and not infact GOM? except your comparison fails because GomTV.net is a english site. the equivalent comparison would be for expecting MLG to find out about the news on a korean site. funny you have the expectation that koreans should frequent english sites and keep up to date with the latest information in the western thing but not the other way around. that doesn't even make sense. why the hell would Gom contact Naniwa to tell him that he didn't have a code s spot if they didn't even know he thought he had a code s spot? You may not know this, but GOM.tv has several representatives that posts on Team Liquid. You may also not know that GOM.tv employs 5 english-speaking casters, as well as a translator. Maybe you've heard of them. Do you really want to argue that for a month, GOM was unaware that the whole western community was under the belief that naniwa had a code S seed that he won at Providence? An event at which two of their casters worked. GOM wouldn't necessarily contact Naniwa, though why wouldn't they, but certainly MLG and possibly TL and inform them that their information, that Naniwa has received a spot in code S, is in fact wrong. Do you not think that it is in GOMs interest to avoid misinformation?
you may think SC2 revolves around western scene and teamliquid but korea has totally separate thing going on themselves.
Sure they could have been clearer regarding various facts but you seem little obsessed on finding faults on GOM on every little new info.
Purposely misled? I dont think so.
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On December 15 2011 15:43 JinnAxel wrote:Show nested quote +On December 15 2011 15:36 JoeSchmoe wrote:On December 15 2011 15:28 m0ck wrote:On December 15 2011 15:21 JoeSchmoe wrote:On December 15 2011 15:14 m0ck wrote:On December 15 2011 15:07 JoeSchmoe wrote:On December 15 2011 14:57 m0ck wrote:On December 15 2011 14:43 diophan wrote:On December 15 2011 14:39 m0ck wrote:On December 15 2011 14:35 akalarry wrote:
[quote]
if naniwa gets code s seed from the mlg-gsl exchange program, did MLG pay and send 4 players and seed them directly into that tournaments championship bracket? What you're doing is akin to sticking your fingers in your ears and going *LA LA LA LA LA*. Yes, let's ignore that it was everyones belief that naniwa had qualified for code S. Him, his team, MLG and the foreign community as a whole. And that GOM never took any steps to correct this belief, until the day after the match between naniwa and nestea took place. And that 1) GOM originally called it a ban on twitter (until later removed), 2) according to some it was stated on their homepage (until later removed) 3) it was referred to as such by Tastosis 4) the rules for their cooperation with MLG implies it 5) Naniwa uncorrected referred to his spot on the media day at the blizzard cup. And that MLG themselves refer to the league exchange program for Providence: http://www.majorleaguegaming.com/news/mc-mma-bomber-and-mvp-to-mlg-providenceAre you being serious? Yes and what you link to is completely untruthful. Bomber, MC, and MMA were placed in the champion bracket because of their past performance. MLG did NOT pay for MVP to travel, that was QxG, as you can confirm by looking in the thread announcing the partnership on TL. Further the exchange program said they were be seeded, which MVP was not. So you're just trusting MLG over GOM, which I suppose you're entitled to do. It appears to me that they both terminated the agreement for Providence, or it wasn't applicable for some reason, and for some suspicious reason this wasn't communicated, perhaps because it was assumed GOM would be willing to give one of its foreigner seeds out to the winner of Providence, so it wouldn't actually matter. Can you give me any sensible explanation for why GOM would wait from Providence and until the day after the naniwa vs nestea match before informaing anyone (including a player who was establishing himself in S Korea under the impression that he had a code S seed) of the fact that Naniwa did in fact not have a birth for code S? And why GOM themselves originally referred to what happened to naniwa as a ban, that tastosis referred to naniwa as having his qualification spot removed and that they didn't correct naniwa when he referred to his spot in code S in the blizzard cup media day interviews? To take GOM at their word, they have deliberately misled, or for a month failed to correct, a player, a team, MLG and the whole western community about whether Providence would provide a code S spot. Do you want to believe that about GOM? Do you not find it a tad more believable, that rather this is a story that is being spun in order to handle a controversial situation? most ridiculous argument ever. it's not GOM's obligation to find out what's happening in the western community. it's not even their first language anyways. this is like expecting MLG to frequent PlayXP and Thisisgame to find out how korean netizens are reacting. here's a better question. why did GOM never contact Naniwa to inform him about his code s seeding when they have done so for all the past participants in MLG who received one? here's an answer, because there was no code s seeding. No, this is like expecting MLG to react if their partner GOM announces on their homepage, that after having won GSL December, Jjakji gets an automatic seed into the winners bracket of the first coming MLG, yet that not being the case. I would certainly expect MLG to correct that misinformation. Why wouldn't they? But you think naniwa should have deduced that he in fact didn't have a birth for code S, since it was only the MLG site, admins at MLG and all major news sources that told him that he had received such a spot, and not infact GOM? except your comparison fails because GomTV.net is a english site. the equivalent comparison would be for expecting MLG to find out about the news on a korean site. funny you have the expectation that koreans should frequent english sites and keep up to date with the latest information in the western thing but not the other way around. that doesn't even make sense. why the hell would Gom contact Naniwa to tell him that he didn't have a code s spot if they didn't even know he thought he had a code s spot? You may not know this, but GOM.tv has several representatives that posts on Team Liquid. You may also not know that GOM.tv employs 5 english-speaking casters, as well as a translator. Maybe you've heard of them. Do you really want to argue that for a month, GOM was unaware that the whole western community was under the belief that naniwa had a code S seed that he won at Providence? An event at which two of their casters worked. GOM wouldn't necessarily contact Naniwa, though why wouldn't they, but certainly MLG and possibly TL and inform them that their information, that Naniwa has received a spot in code S, is in fact wrong. Do you not think that it is in GOMs interest to avoid misinformation? of course i know. but how often do they frequent this site? not often. do they look at every topic? obviously not and why should they? do MLGs have korean representatives frequenting korean websites? no. was naniwa's announcement to code S in big red letters at the top of the site? no. do you really want to argue that the reason why GOM never contacted Naniwa about his code S when they did for everyone else who got it is because they anticipated the moment that Naniwa would leave a game against Nestea thus forcing them to retract the fact that the code s spot was ever awarded? give me a break. don't you think it is in MLG's interest to avoid misinformation? see how easy I can turn that around? They don't need to frequent any site, that's not the issue here. They partnered up with MLG, a business. They are therefore obligated contractually to tell MLG what's up regarding the whole affair of Code S seeding. MLG then tells us, and if Gom feels nice, they tell us as well. But the fact is they didn't tell MLG (the organization) anything. They don't need to frequent these sites but they do need to inform their business partners.
actually you're just making assumptions that correspond with your bias because you have no idea what happened between Gom and MLG. what makes you think GOM didn't tell MLG and that they simply misunderstood or missed something? what makes you think there wasn't a miscommunication error?
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As I said before, I really hope MLG apologize to NaNiwa for lying about his Code S spot. If this statement is true then it's MLG who tricked NaNi, and all the fans.
I also want to say to everyone, because it seems like nobody realize - GOM chose to broadcast that match. They knew that he pulled probes, they knew how upset the koreans would be. Still the chose to put it up on the screen, instead of saying there was a delay, pause the game and go and tell nani that either he plays the game seriously, or gtfo.
It's all GOM who wanted this publicity, and their fault the koreans feel what they feel.
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On December 15 2011 15:48 Ninjahoe wrote:
As I said before, I really hope MLG apologize to NaNiwa for lying about his Code S spot. If this statement is true then it's MLG who tricked NaNi, and all the fans.
I also want to say to everyone, because it seems like nobody realize - GOM chose to broadcast that match. They knew that he pulled probes, they knew how upset the koreans would be. Still the chose to put it up on the screen, instead of saying there was a delay, pause the game and go and tell nani that either he plays the game seriously, or gtfo.
It's all GOM who wanted this publicity, and their fault the koreans feel what they feel.
How were they supposed to know before Naniwa probe rushed that he was going to probe rush?
You really think they could see the probe, pause the game, and explain to everyone watching live that what they saw just didn't happen?
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On December 15 2011 15:48 Ninjahoe wrote:
As I said before, I really hope MLG apologize to NaNiwa for lying about his Code S spot. If this statement is true then it's MLG who tricked NaNi, and all the fans.
I also want to say to everyone, because it seems like nobody realize - GOM chose to broadcast that match. They knew that he pulled probes, they knew how upset the koreans would be. Still the chose to put it up on the screen, instead of saying there was a delay, pause the game and go and tell nani that either he plays the game seriously, or gtfo.
It's all GOM who wanted this publicity, and their fault the koreans feel what they feel.
i'm pretty sure no one deliberately tried to trick anyone. there was probably a miscommunication somewhere in between which is why people should stop making assumptions about who's at fault and wait for MLG to make an announcement about this matter.
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On December 15 2011 15:07 TheEconomist wrote:I understand the great concern for e-sports to be taken legitimately as a sport by the global audience. What I am battling to understand is why e-sports are being held to a higher standard than the rest of the world's sports? Japanese Sumo wrestlers have been accused, with interesting evidence (in Freakonomics book 1) of throwing ranking matches to make sure all receive favourable rankings; Tiger Woods gets paid MORE than the Australian Open's 1st place prize (if not the whole pool) to simply ATTEND the event; Numerous team games do not send out their best players/formations to play against weaker teams in games that aren't seen as important. Manchester United the week before a big derby day, Manchester United when they tour South Africa (Our best team beat them in a 3-team tournament 3 years ago, iirc), not to mention the teams mentioned in http://www.teamliquid.net/blogs/viewblog.php?topic_id=294342I also understand the comments that are being made to an extent from both sides. I do feel that to call Naniwa "money-grubbing amateur" is a bit much when MVP recently came out in an interview to say that the switch to SC2 was largely motivated by money. There have been rumours (that my journalistic soul is crying, as I have not tried to confirm them) that Fruitdealer was the same. There was a National Geographic documentary on the WCG 2006 (I think), where money was ALSO the main reason for that player to compete. With respect to Naniwa's situation, to be upset over his stance that he wants to win for money seems a bit hypocritical. Especially when the very same tournament invited Stephano, who has oft been quoted as saying that he is in it solely for the money, and will only stay if that remains to be good. However, Naniwa, in all the interviews I have come across seems to desire the so-called bonjwa title more than any money. This, coupled with his perceived social awkwardness at events has given him a bad reputation, or as far as I am aware. This event can probably be seen as the straw that broke the camel’s back, but to review some interesting occurrences almost immediately predating this event. 1) There were a series of show matches just before the first Arena of Legends, I think it was (sorry, time constraints again), where various players played far below their peak. I am not just mentioning the Huk Nestea game, where Huk was accused of taking it "too seriously" by Nestea, but also the MKP vs MMA game, where MMA had MKP dead to rights, pulled back, and lost to MKP's overpowered Protoss.... Yes, Protoss. Now, I don't know what was on the line for those matches, I would assume that the winner would receive some form of compensation, however on a well-respected foreigner talk show, it was highlighted that Korean's don't respect show matches as they would a real game. There was no money on the line. There was no international ranking on the line. All that was in this was the entertainment value for the fans... 2) This format, where those who were already eliminated were forced to play was out of the established norm for a GomTV tournament. In GSL Pool play, as soon as a player loses two games, they are no longer required to play. Likewise, in the most recent up & down's, when two players had no chance of advancing, I remember them as not having to play either. Why was this specific tournament different? By the time Naniwa vs Nestea had arrived, there was no difference in prize money. There was no chance of either advancing. This can be simplified down to a glorified show match between two people with an interesting rivalry. The result was an organizer's dream result. Not only do these two players have a great, recent history, they were about to meet up in a Best of One to see who has improved the most. "Does Naniwa have what it takes to keep down the God of Zerg? Will Nestea take revenge for the Swarm? No! Naniwa does the unthinkable. He almost shouted it from the rooftops that the rematch will not be today. Not in this place. He will take the grudge further, and show that Nestea is not worth his time... for now. With both of these players in the up & coming GSL season 1 2012 Code S, it's only a matter of time until these players meet up for revenge." Instead, this did not happen. Instead, GSL revoked a seed with a spot ruling, and have since been trying to legitimize it. I did not see one announcement or correction concerning Naniwa's Code S seed from MLG since Providence. It was expected that he had won the right to compete in the GSL at MLG. He had earned the right to be at the Blizzard Cup, in all of his ignominious glory by placing 2nd at the same MLG. Yet it seems that he broke a misunderstood rule that according to some reports (once again I apologize for the tabloid journalism) was not even fully explained. More than that, due to the GSL changing formats again in as many events, he has had his seed revoked. This November season went through a substantial overhaul, and almost straight away, before the season is complete after showing some amazing games throughout, and the best finals by popular vote so far, it is being changed again. Not only is it being changed again, apparently these rules have been drawn up, and are already in effect for the next season. However, as I understand it, they have not been released to the public. In summation, I am not surprised at how Naniwa acted. If I had paid to watch that game, I would have been excited to see Classic Naniwa, reinventing BM in his own awkward style. I would have thought to myself "A best of one doesn’t mean anything anyway". I would have been ecstatic for the chance at a rematch between these two great players, and probably the most consistently performing foreigner (It's been a long time since TSL 3 yet Naniwa is still up there), And yet, I, and I am not alone, I am left with a feeling that GomTV messed up in handling a situation that could have been easily spun to their benefit. If this was as big a thing in Korean culture as many foreigners are saying, this would have sold MORE tickets, not less. This would have made the GSL more talked about, not less. This is the type of controversy that would make a company huge, even get GSL trending as Tastosis desperately try. I just cannot help feel they made this decision badly.
Nice long post with lots of points. I think a number of them are arguable. 1) Throwing matches in Sumo is statistically inferred but each match individually cannot be proven to have been thrown or not. So if Naniwa did the same, it would've been okay like the sumo wrestlers, but he blatently threw the game. If the Sumo wrestlers did that, I'm sure there would've been consequences.
2) Teams do not send out their best players to weak teams because of few reasons: first could be to minimize injuries of their important players; second could be to give more experience to new ones; a third could be to see how a new player does. There could be more, but they don't play to lose and they just take a risk. As someone said, it would be more like Naniwa not using his best strategies, instead of just throwing the game.
3) Again and again, GOM did not state that Naniwa is a "money grubbing amatuer". Besides, to my knowledge, GOM never said money is not important. This is just taking their statement to an extreme and blowing it out of proportion. From what I read they are saying being a pro also means having standards.
4) All the players were given money for participating (minimum prize for lowest ones) from what I remember. I might be wrong on this one. But if so, they were paid to participate and play the games, thus I would assume, unlike other tournaments, that they actually play the game.
Also, from what I understand, the change in general GSL format was already released during the event. The main reason for the change in non-korean seeding is because now that the GSL leagues are more spaced out they don't coincide well 1 on 1 with the MLG events.
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I would like to say that failure to communicate clearly (if this indeed a fault of GOM's in this situation) does not in anyway revoke GOM's right to take whatever action they deem necessary for the preservation of the competition they aim to provide. Naniwa's action was inexcusable. It was disrespectful. It was unprofessional. It was frankly revolting. It is an action that really does threaten to undermine the competitive standards for the GSL, as GOM has indicated. I've always been impressed by the way players continue to show the best games, and are committed to showing their best games for the viewers, even when they aren't playing for much. Setting a precedent to the contrary is a threat to this standard.
Imagine if an NFL team simply ran out the clock on every possession during a game that didn't matter. Or just forfeited the game. I'm not talking about putting in 2nd stringers. (It would be different if Naniwa had tried an unconventional, or risky strategy. His was not a strategy.) Think of all the people who showed up to that game, paid money for a ticket to that game, planned on watching that game, got invested in it emotionally...Could we reasonably expect the NFL to take no action?
It's an analogy, and it's not perfect. But let's remember that GOM is on our side here. They are doing what they are doing to provide us, the viewers, the best experience. And frankly, I appreciate it. I wouldn't mind if I never had occasion to root against Naniwa again. Not that I won't enjoy doing so in the future...
A last thing I'd like to say. Something I sense a lot across these forums-and I see it creeping in here as well-which I would like to take this opportunity to caution against, is an "us" vs. "them" attitude in regards to so-called "foreigner" and Korean events/players/attitudes/culture/teams/companies. I mentioned it above, that GOM is on our side. This isn't a "we're non-Korean and they are" site, this is an international site. Everybody gets worked up, and everybody has biases that take time to work through. This community and Starcraft in general provide amazing opportunities for lots of people to open themselves up to new cultures, especially (as history would have it) that of Korea. I'm just saying: don't make it an us vs. them issue, please (on whatever side of the Korean border you're on). There's a bigger "we" here--the starcraft lovers.
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I would also think there has been much mistranslation/misinterpretation and misunderstanding between parties regarding announcements, specifics, postings etc. After all the first language of people at GOM is Korean and not many are so fluent in English. (which means that their ability to moniter non-Korean communities and news and release are limited)
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Because it seems harsh to you doesn't mean they are on power trip or trying to fuck you over.
It just means they are taking it more seriously than you do.
Some people have been reading too many comic books.
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EPT
