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On December 15 2011 16:30 Govou wrote:Show nested quote +On December 15 2011 16:20 HappyChris wrote:On December 15 2011 16:15 Govou wrote:On December 15 2011 16:03 m0ck wrote:On December 15 2011 15:36 JoeSchmoe wrote:On December 15 2011 15:28 m0ck wrote:On December 15 2011 15:21 JoeSchmoe wrote:On December 15 2011 15:14 m0ck wrote:On December 15 2011 15:07 JoeSchmoe wrote:On December 15 2011 14:57 m0ck wrote:
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Can you give me any sensible explanation for why GOM would wait from Providence and until the day after the naniwa vs nestea match before informaing anyone (including a player who was establishing himself in S Korea under the impression that he had a code S seed) of the fact that Naniwa did in fact not have a birth for code S? And why GOM themselves originally referred to what happened to naniwa as a ban, that tastosis referred to naniwa as having his qualification spot removed and that they didn't correct naniwa when he referred to his spot in code S in the blizzard cup media day interviews?
To take GOM at their word, they have deliberately misled, or for a month failed to correct, a player, a team, MLG and the whole western community about whether Providence would provide a code S spot. Do you want to believe that about GOM?
Do you not find it a tad more believable, that rather this is a story that is being spun in order to handle a controversial situation? most ridiculous argument ever. it's not GOM's obligation to find out what's happening in the western community. it's not even their first language anyways. this is like expecting MLG to frequent PlayXP and Thisisgame to find out how korean netizens are reacting. here's a better question. why did GOM never contact Naniwa to inform him about his code s seeding when they have done so for all the past participants in MLG who received one? here's an answer, because there was no code s seeding. No, this is like expecting MLG to react if their partner GOM announces on their homepage, that after having won GSL December, Jjakji gets an automatic seed into the winners bracket of the first coming MLG, yet that not being the case. I would certainly expect MLG to correct that misinformation. Why wouldn't they? But you think naniwa should have deduced that he in fact didn't have a birth for code S, since it was only the MLG site, admins at MLG and all major news sources that told him that he had received such a spot, and not infact GOM? except your comparison fails because GomTV.net is a english site. the equivalent comparison would be for expecting MLG to find out about the news on a korean site. funny you have the expectation that koreans should frequent english sites and keep up to date with the latest information in the western thing but not the other way around. that doesn't even make sense. why the hell would Gom contact Naniwa to tell him that he didn't have a code s spot if they didn't even know he thought he had a code s spot? You may not know this, but GOM.tv has several representatives that posts on Team Liquid. You may also not know that GOM.tv employs 5 english-speaking casters, as well as a translator. Maybe you've heard of them. Do you really want to argue that for a month, GOM was unaware that the whole western community was under the belief that naniwa had a code S seed that he won at Providence? An event at which two of their casters worked. GOM wouldn't necessarily contact Naniwa, though why wouldn't they, but certainly MLG and possibly TL and inform them that their information, that Naniwa has received a spot in code S, is in fact wrong. Do you not think that it is in GOMs interest to avoid misinformation? of course i know. but how often do they frequent this site? not often. do they look at every topic? obviously not and why should they? do MLGs have korean representatives frequenting korean websites? no. was naniwa's announcement to code S in big red letters at the top of the site? no. do you really want to argue that the reason why GOM never contacted Naniwa about his code S when they did for everyone else who got it is because they anticipated the moment that Naniwa would leave a game against Nestea thus forcing them to retract the fact that the code s spot was ever awarded? give me a break. don't you think it is in MLG's interest to avoid misinformation? see how easy I can turn that around? I'm sorry to ask, but where do you have the information of GOM contacting the previous qualifiers for code S through MLG? They were all Korean. What I'm arguing is that the reason that EVERYONE was under the impression that naniwa had a birth spot for code S, as stated by GOMs american partner and all major news sites after Providence, and the reason that NO ONE knew of GOMs change of plans until yesterday, is that it is based on GOM spinning a story. Afraid of the backlash of their decision, GOM tells a story about naniwa actually not receiving the spot in the first place. They made a decision, but they won't own up to it. To me, that seems a lot more reasonable than GOM being completely unaware of what their american partner and everyone involved in the western scene, including the casters working for them, took for granted. That Providence, like the previous MLG tournaments since Columbus, qualified one top 3 contender, not currently in Code S, for Code S. This is corroborated on several points, as pointed out in the quotes. I think it is necessary to take a massive leap of faith in order to make GOMs story make any sense. If you followed MLG providence and participated in LR thread, it was clearly stated mulitiple times that Providence was not involved with the league exchange program. However, people were speculating Naniwa would get the seed because.. well why not? it also seemed like a perfect fit as Naniwa already going there. Also there was a report Naniwa getting the invite the Korea, though I wasn't really paying attention so I wasnt sure if it was blizzcup or 2012 GSL. I followed MLG providence and participated in the LR thread you lying it was not stated multiple times that providence was not involved with the league exchange program. Plz provide evidence for you claim. Also another thing to note alot of korean players when they were being interviewed sayd they were here to try to win a code s spot.. I got no idea why you saying such noncence please, stop being emotional. I have read it couple times and I remember vividly how people were discussing whether Naniwa would get it. Why would I lie when people can search around to find the truth? I"m not that stupid. As for the proof, I'll try to find it.. but as you know, it is a massive thread that is the reason I didnt orignially include quotes from the thread. Though I will spend maybe 5-10 mintue searching around.
But Govou, that doesn't address the fact that all major news-sources, as well as MLG themselves, believed MLG Providence to qualify for a code S spot.
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I hope we can all agree that Nani did something that ended up being a big deal to a lot of people, which he probably didn't understand at the time, and it put many parties in a very tough position, where they cannot please everyone. I might not agree 100% with how everything was handled, but I try to be understanding considering the circumstances.
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On December 15 2011 16:22 Hemula wrote:+ Show Spoiler +On December 15 2011 15:55 GreenFaction wrote:
I would like to say that failure to communicate clearly (if this indeed a fault of GOM's in this situation) does not in anyway revoke GOM's right to take whatever action they deem necessary for the preservation of the competition they aim to provide. Naniwa's action was inexcusable. It was disrespectful. It was unprofessional. It was frankly revolting. It is an action that really does threaten to undermine the competitive standards for the GSL, as GOM has indicated. I've always been impressed by the way players continue to show the best games, and are committed to showing their best games for the viewers, even when they aren't playing for much. Setting a precedent to the contrary is a threat to this standard.
Imagine if an NFL team simply ran out the clock on every possession during a game that didn't matter. Or just forfeited the game. I'm not talking about putting in 2nd stringers. (It would be different if Naniwa had tried an unconventional, or risky strategy. His was not a strategy.) Think of all the people who showed up to that game, paid money for a ticket to that game, planned on watching that game, got invested in it emotionally...Could we reasonably expect the NFL to take no action?
It's an analogy, and it's not perfect. But let's remember that GOM is on our side here. They are doing what they are doing to provide us, the viewers, the best experience. And frankly, I appreciate it. I wouldn't mind if I never had occasion to root against Naniwa again. Not that I won't enjoy doing so in the future...
A last thing I'd like to say. Something I sense a lot across these forums-and I see it creeping in here as well-which I would like to take this opportunity to caution against, is an "us" vs. "them" attitude in regards to so-called "foreigner" and Korean events/players/attitudes/culture/teams/companies. I mentioned it above, that GOM is on our side. This isn't a "we're non-Korean and they are" site, this is an international site. Everybody gets worked up, and everybody has biases that take time to work through. This community and Starcraft in general provide amazing opportunities for lots of people to open themselves up to new cultures, especially (as history would have it) that of Korea. I'm just saying: don't make it an us vs. them issue, please (on whatever side of the Korean border you're on). There's a bigger "we" here--the starcraft lovers. Knew you were from the USA before I checked your location. No offence. To be honest, what blows my mind more than anything is their choice - Idra and Sen. Well, of course we never know how many foreigners they asked if they could come, but I am sure not many, because who would reject a Code S seed? (except for Stephano, of course) IdrA (MLG Orlando 4th, IEM Guangzhou) Sen (Blizzcon Battle.net Invitational 3rd) Are they really the best foreigners we could have had battling it in the Code S? I like both, but really? I am not stating, I am asking, because I don't know very well. Edit: Why not to hold a qualifier. Players don't stay at the top forever, some of them get better some of them on the contrary are not as good as they were. + Show Spoiler +
Sen has consistently placed top in many international tournaments, often only losing to the Koreans and tops any other foreigner (3rd NASL season 1 and season 2, 3rd at Blizzcon). Sen was also in Code S when he left GSL just like IdrA. He is most definitely one of the best foreigners that deserve an international seed invite.
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On December 15 2011 16:31 xBillehx wrote:
Why do people who bring up the league exchange thing always quote one side and completely ignore that the MLG side wasn't exactly fulfilled itself? MVP had to fight his way through the open bracket guys, this actually happened. Didn't the league exchange rules say Koreans would be seeded?
But if we are to believe that was has happened is that GOM didn't accept MLGs upholding of their end of the bargain, to seed four players in to the group-stage (well, there were none), how come they didn't contact MLG or anyone else involved to inform them, that Naniwa was in fact not qualified for a code S spot? To me that a major hole in that theory.
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On December 15 2011 16:28 farnham wrote:Show nested quote +On December 15 2011 16:25 babylon wrote:
Will Sen even take the Code S seed? He has a ton of obligations to his team for TeSL, and he has to play for them every weekend. (He basically carries his team.) he will probably decline who cares about gsl really when you can play tesl
Sen's team already announced that Sen will be playing in GSL.
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To me it sounds like GomTV wants to continue the MLG exchange program. But they don't want to have the foreigners come to play in their tournaments w/o qualifying all the way though? Why would Naniwa be slated for a 2012 code S slot when he placed second in 2011. It seems logical that you get what you win right? So if the exchange program is to work, GSL January 2012, should include the MLG code S slot winner. And the new format should start in Feb. Otherwise it makes the code S slot pointless for the mlg national championship. Unless I missed something in there that someone can point out to me.
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United States23455 Posts
I like Sen, but the argument for him is: 'He beats all the foreigners, but loses to the Koreans like Puma/Hero, etc. at the end.'
So he gets put into a tournament with the best Koreans in the world? Couldn't we have at least put them in Up-and-Downs and made them test themselves first before handing them free passes to the most prestigious tournament in the world?
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Naniwa did a stupid thing not expecting such a reaction. Than came GSL trumping Naniwas stupidity by revoking his Code S spot for not braking any rules. Way to go. And btw why was there no twitter storm after the CoCa incident? Is it me or are Koreans slightly biased?
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On December 15 2011 16:37 Fionn wrote:
I like Sen, but the argument for him is: 'He beats all the foreigners, but loses to the Koreans like Puma/Hero, etc. at the end.'
So he gets put into a tournament with the best Koreans in the world? Couldn't we have at least put them in Up-and-Downs and made them test themselves first before handing them free passes to the most prestigious tournament in the world?
This is because Sen qualified for Code S before but did not accept, and Idra was also in Code S when he left. At least I think that's their reasoning.
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On December 15 2011 16:32 m0ck wrote:Show nested quote +On December 15 2011 16:30 Govou wrote:On December 15 2011 16:20 HappyChris wrote:On December 15 2011 16:15 Govou wrote:On December 15 2011 16:03 m0ck wrote:On December 15 2011 15:36 JoeSchmoe wrote:On December 15 2011 15:28 m0ck wrote:On December 15 2011 15:21 JoeSchmoe wrote:On December 15 2011 15:14 m0ck wrote:On December 15 2011 15:07 JoeSchmoe wrote:
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most ridiculous argument ever. it's not GOM's obligation to find out what's happening in the western community. it's not even their first language anyways. this is like expecting MLG to frequent PlayXP and Thisisgame to find out how korean netizens are reacting. here's a better question. why did GOM never contact Naniwa to inform him about his code s seeding when they have done so for all the past participants in MLG who received one? here's an answer, because there was no code s seeding. No, this is like expecting MLG to react if their partner GOM announces on their homepage, that after having won GSL December, Jjakji gets an automatic seed into the winners bracket of the first coming MLG, yet that not being the case. I would certainly expect MLG to correct that misinformation. Why wouldn't they? But you think naniwa should have deduced that he in fact didn't have a birth for code S, since it was only the MLG site, admins at MLG and all major news sources that told him that he had received such a spot, and not infact GOM? except your comparison fails because GomTV.net is a english site. the equivalent comparison would be for expecting MLG to find out about the news on a korean site. funny you have the expectation that koreans should frequent english sites and keep up to date with the latest information in the western thing but not the other way around. that doesn't even make sense. why the hell would Gom contact Naniwa to tell him that he didn't have a code s spot if they didn't even know he thought he had a code s spot? You may not know this, but GOM.tv has several representatives that posts on Team Liquid. You may also not know that GOM.tv employs 5 english-speaking casters, as well as a translator. Maybe you've heard of them. Do you really want to argue that for a month, GOM was unaware that the whole western community was under the belief that naniwa had a code S seed that he won at Providence? An event at which two of their casters worked. GOM wouldn't necessarily contact Naniwa, though why wouldn't they, but certainly MLG and possibly TL and inform them that their information, that Naniwa has received a spot in code S, is in fact wrong. Do you not think that it is in GOMs interest to avoid misinformation? of course i know. but how often do they frequent this site? not often. do they look at every topic? obviously not and why should they? do MLGs have korean representatives frequenting korean websites? no. was naniwa's announcement to code S in big red letters at the top of the site? no. do you really want to argue that the reason why GOM never contacted Naniwa about his code S when they did for everyone else who got it is because they anticipated the moment that Naniwa would leave a game against Nestea thus forcing them to retract the fact that the code s spot was ever awarded? give me a break. don't you think it is in MLG's interest to avoid misinformation? see how easy I can turn that around? I'm sorry to ask, but where do you have the information of GOM contacting the previous qualifiers for code S through MLG? They were all Korean. What I'm arguing is that the reason that EVERYONE was under the impression that naniwa had a birth spot for code S, as stated by GOMs american partner and all major news sites after Providence, and the reason that NO ONE knew of GOMs change of plans until yesterday, is that it is based on GOM spinning a story. Afraid of the backlash of their decision, GOM tells a story about naniwa actually not receiving the spot in the first place. They made a decision, but they won't own up to it. To me, that seems a lot more reasonable than GOM being completely unaware of what their american partner and everyone involved in the western scene, including the casters working for them, took for granted. That Providence, like the previous MLG tournaments since Columbus, qualified one top 3 contender, not currently in Code S, for Code S. This is corroborated on several points, as pointed out in the quotes. I think it is necessary to take a massive leap of faith in order to make GOMs story make any sense. If you followed MLG providence and participated in LR thread, it was clearly stated mulitiple times that Providence was not involved with the league exchange program. However, people were speculating Naniwa would get the seed because.. well why not? it also seemed like a perfect fit as Naniwa already going there. Also there was a report Naniwa getting the invite the Korea, though I wasn't really paying attention so I wasnt sure if it was blizzcup or 2012 GSL. I followed MLG providence and participated in the LR thread you lying it was not stated multiple times that providence was not involved with the league exchange program. Plz provide evidence for you claim. Also another thing to note alot of korean players when they were being interviewed sayd they were here to try to win a code s spot.. I got no idea why you saying such noncence please, stop being emotional. I have read it couple times and I remember vividly how people were discussing whether Naniwa would get it. Why would I lie when people can search around to find the truth? I"m not that stupid. As for the proof, I'll try to find it.. but as you know, it is a massive thread that is the reason I didnt orignially include quotes from the thread. Though I will spend maybe 5-10 mintue searching around. But Govou, that doesn't address the fact that all major news-sources, as well as MLG themselves, believed MLG Providence to qualify for a code S spot.
well about that matter, I know just as much as anyone around here.
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I agree with GOMTV here.
Player doesn't have to break any actual rule. there is some common sense in sport that doesn't have to be put in to a rule.
One of that common sense is that you must try to win
If the game is meaningless then do a carier rush or mother ship rush. Do some half decent strategy and very likely you will get away with that. Trying to lose on purpose is to much.
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Would have liked to see GOM mention the unfortunate situation created by their format, or allowing participants to forfeit matches in such situations (and let the player deal with the sponsor/fan/team fallout)...
...but ultimately, Naniwa acted in a way that is indefensible for a paid professional, and GOM was right to punish him. If promises were made regarding the Code S seed they should be kept, otherwise I think their decision is fitting.
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On December 15 2011 16:35 m0ck wrote:Show nested quote +On December 15 2011 16:31 xBillehx wrote:
Why do people who bring up the league exchange thing always quote one side and completely ignore that the MLG side wasn't exactly fulfilled itself? MVP had to fight his way through the open bracket guys, this actually happened. Didn't the league exchange rules say Koreans would be seeded? But if we are to believe that was has happened is that GOM didn't accept MLGs upholding of their end of the bargain, to seed four players in to the group-stage (well, there were none), how come they didn't contact MLG or anyone else involved to inform them, that Naniwa was in fact not qualified for a code S spot? To me that a major hole in that theory.
I don't know if they didn't accept MLG's upholding of the exchange program, but a lot of things that were supposed to happen didn't, so it leads me to believe that the MLG-GSL exchange program was either not fully in effect (i.e with some changes, no korean seeds in MLG and winner/runner up being invited to Blizzard Cup instead) or didn't apply to the event at all.
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On December 15 2011 16:39 Fabozi wrote:
Naniwa did a stupid thing not expecting such a reaction. Than came GSL trumping Naniwas stupidity by revoking his Code S spot for not braking any rules. Way to go. And btw why was there no twitter storm after the CoCa incident? Is it me or are Koreans slightly biased?
CoCa was immediately kicked out of his team house and they forbade him from entering tournaments for an unspecified amount of time. Boxer said he was embarrassed for his team or something like that. Artosis and Tasteless talked for a long time in the GSL broadcast about how shameful what he did was, etc. Just because you didn't bother to be informed about it doesn't mean he didn't get an even worse punishment. As far as I can tell Nani gets to continue being in the Startale house and was able to enter the Code A qualifiers.
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It's been said before and I'll repeat it once again.
If you want the players to play their best don't give them meaningless matches. The format has to be correct, or players won't be motivated to show their best play... What non disguised version of what has happened often.
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I have to say, that to me what happened to Coca was way over the top as well. Clearly the players didn't think much of it, as they did their 'bargaining' in the open. I think the 'white collar crime' that the institutions surrounding the players commit are a much bigger deal.
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On December 15 2011 16:35 bobohobo wrote:Sen was also in Code S when he left GSL just like IdrA. He is most definitely one of the best foreigners that deserve an international seed invite.
He was never in Code S. The only GSL's he participated in were Open Season 3 and the World Championship, where he went out in ro32 and ro16 respectively.
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On December 15 2011 06:41 Hydrox911 wrote:
Im sorry, but I do like the stance gomtv has taken to this and am very disappointed. The thing you have to understand is that you have taken away Naniwa's code s spot. He was going to be in code s --> incidenent happens ----> No seed. For me at least, its gomtv who looks the worst out this occasion. You have to clearer what the rules are and , as has been discussed in other threads, not have these vague rules which gomtv seems to have used against naniwa. Be clear with your rules. Very disappointed and In my opinion, there is a large part of blame for having pointless games in the first place. You seem to purely have reacted according to Korean netizen reactions and not having clear rules, just making them up as you feel fitting.
Sorry Gom, but this is my opinion and don't feel like supporting gomtv right now. Thanks
Its pretty obvious that a match that is displayed on tv/streams is supposed to be played. Im not even pro and even I understand not to throw the game. And there is a rule(Might be a bit vague) that basically says not to make fun of your opponent during a game.
This is a tournament that has been getting alot of foreigner attention, and I find it to be the player/teams resposability to check rules.
Even if it is okay to throw a game you don't do that infront of a camera for your sponsors/fans to see. Its dumb. "Hi, I got sent here by Intel, but now that I'm out of the tournament I cant do whatever I want while wearing their logo."
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On December 15 2011 16:42 xBillehx wrote:Show nested quote +On December 15 2011 16:35 m0ck wrote:On December 15 2011 16:31 xBillehx wrote:
Why do people who bring up the league exchange thing always quote one side and completely ignore that the MLG side wasn't exactly fulfilled itself? MVP had to fight his way through the open bracket guys, this actually happened. Didn't the league exchange rules say Koreans would be seeded? But if we are to believe that was has happened is that GOM didn't accept MLGs upholding of their end of the bargain, to seed four players in to the group-stage (well, there were none), how come they didn't contact MLG or anyone else involved to inform them, that Naniwa was in fact not qualified for a code S spot? To me that a major hole in that theory. I don't know if they didn't accept MLG's upholding of the exchange program, but a lot of things that were supposed to happen didn't, so it leads me to believe that the MLG-GSL exchange program was either not fully in effect (i.e with some changes, no korean seeds in MLG and winner/runner up being invited to Blizzard Cup instead) or didn't apply to the event at all.
Well, MLG certainly wasn't aware.
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I'm from Korea and it's the first time I write in TL even though I visit here almost everyday.
It hurts to see people being divided like it's the end of E-Sport or something. I think calming down a bit is always good when you discuss something.
From my knowledge, most of Korean fans knew that Providence does not guarantee Code S spot. And I definitely remember that there was discussion about Providence Code S issue in TL before somewhere in LR thread I guess. So it was NOT a settled matter. But it's also true Naniwa was the first contender for the spot. Koreans thought like that too.
So why did GOM tell you about this explicitly? I thought they did in GSL tour 2012 plan. Code S have two sponsor tickets. It's not a MLG ticket or something as it used to be. So it's not like it came out of blue. You already knew GSL 2012 plan.
I think the reason GOM didn't tell that Naniwa wouldn't get Code S before is it might well be Naniwa through sponsorship ticket as they stated here.
Hope it will settle well.
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EPT
