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On December 15 2011 08:27 diophan wrote:Show nested quote +On December 15 2011 08:25 Nexic wrote:On December 15 2011 08:18 ssi.bal-listic wrote:
I think people have to realize that the contract between GSL and MLG was for 2011 (afaik). I dont think there was anything about giving highest seed in MLG a code S spot in 2012. But that doesn't make sense logically, with how the exchange program is explained in the announcement thread that Waxangel posted. It explicitly states for every MLG event in 2011 after Columbus, one code S spot would be awarded. MLG Providence occurred in 2011, and thus a Code S spot for Providence should have been awarded. It sounds more like GOM thinks that since they came up with a new format for 2012, that it voids the current arrangement/doesn't carry over into the next GSL. But I think many people here are agreeing that the code S spot for providence still should still be awarded to satisfy the original ruleset of "all MLGs in 2011, post-Columbus". It says CIRCUIT event in what he posted. I don't know what MLG's buzzwords mean, but perhaps the finals aren't considered a circuit tournament, cause the circuit is leading up to the finals? That's at least a possibility... things get translated back and forth multiple times so it's at least possible there's some legitimate confusion and not some grand scheme to dupe everyone.
This is indeed a possibility that's why I am anticipating the MLG statement full of hope. It has to be said, though, that almost every person in the SC community has, these last weeks, taken for granted that naniwa now has code S status and GOM never cleared up the confusion. It was even announced formally by their partners, MLG. That's why many, including me, seriously doubt that everything was done according to the rules.
I have to say almost nobody says there was a grand scheme. Most of us (us = people disliking GOM's statement) are bothered by the fact that GOM are trying to sell the story of "deciding to not offer naniwa a code S spot", while clearly they decided to take away his code S spot. I disliked what naniwa did, so if GOM had at least taken full responsibility for directly punishing naniwa, I would at leas respect the decision, although I think that either way it's too harsh.
But unfortunately, it seems to be much worse than just a harsh decision.
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Gom really making it clear here that when Korean and western cultural standards and expectations disagree, they will choose the Korean side. I guess we should have expected that. But all of that stuff about honor and codes of conduct are completely alien to me. Professional athletes are some of the most spoiled and dishonorable people in the world. We watch them because of their skill, not because they want to please us.
Oh, also it sounds like what I've been saying for a while is true - gom just unilaterally canceled the mlg exchange program. I hope mlg shows an equal leek of "respect" to the gsl and stops inviting Koreans straight I to group play. Or at least stops letting directly invited Koreans earn rank points without playing through the open racket like everyone else.
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i think he meant an announcement that naniwa specifically had received code s. not a general announcement of how the system would work. there is ambiguity whether the general announcement was intended to continue in 2012 and if it was intended to continue if GOM changed its system. this, i am hoping for a statement from MLG on.
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Really, people don't seem to get what GOM is saying.
The Blizzard Cup spot Naniwa got IS the Code S spot he won. They are one in the same. He DID get a Code S spot from providence, and it was the Blizzard cup. It's basically Code S.
It's a tournament of the best of the best, hosted by GOMTV in korea, heavily intertwined with Code S (the top 3 code S points got seeded into it). It's just not technically called Code S. But it's all a part of the same GSL league. The winner of the Blizzard Cup still gets GSL points I believe.
For all intents and purposes, Naniwa did get his code S spot.
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On December 15 2011 08:37 dp wrote:
I find it funny so many people say GOMTV is lying. Any of you people care to show a single announcement from GOMTV that nani was being given a code S spot? Anyone at all? Don't worry, I will wait..
Another user posted this:
On December 15 2011 08:19 Paladia wrote:Show nested quote +On December 15 2011 06:33 GOMTV wrote:It seems like a lot of people have been under the impression that NaNiWa has received a Code S seed for taking 2nd place at MLG Providence. The truth however is that NaNiWa has received the right to compete in the Blizzard Cup for his 2nd place achievement at MLG Providence. Gom, why are you making this up? 1. Why were the two seeds called "INTERNATIONAL SEED" and the other one "MLG PROVIDENCE CODE S SEED" on your official website (which you in stealth changed today)? 2. Why did your own twitter comment say that you revoked his Code S seed (which you also, deleted today)? 3. Why was it announced on your official partners website that Naniwa has .. earned a seat in Code S? 4. And why does it say on your official website when you announced the partner program still (not had time to change that one yet, had you?) say that: At every 2011 Pro Circuit Live Competition after MLG Columbus, GSL placement will occur as follows:
Code S status will be awarded to the highest placing player, regardless of country of origin, who doesn't already have Code S status.What you are doing right now is much much worse than what Naniwa could ever do or any player has ever done in the history of Starcraft 2. You are falsely removing the prize of a tournament several months after the tournament has happened and trying to delete all evidence of it. This is worse than those tournaments who don't pay the prize money, as at least they acknowledge the fact that there is a prize. I really expected that your so called "honor" would be more than this. Removing one of the major prizes of a tournament, lying, deleting threads, in secret altering your own statements, I think all GomTV has built up was just thrown down the drain and I honestly wish that no player would ever have anything more to do with you. I don't see how you dare talk about "honor" or professionalism.
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Why not give the player a warning? It's GOM that was wrong in not having a rule saying you must do you're best in a worthless game
Edit: after reading this thread I feel this announcement made things worse for GOM with the confusion around wether code s spot was earned at mlg or not
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On December 15 2011 08:39 TedJustice wrote:Show nested quote +On December 15 2011 08:36 scintilliaSD wrote:On December 15 2011 08:33 TedJustice wrote:
Some people don't seem to understand something.
Earning a Code S seed is not a "prize" or a "right".
It's a privilege. Whether they're lying about the providence seed or not, it's entirely within their right to remove him from the tournament despite his seed.
It's not revoking a prize. The prize was him having the privilege of a code S seed, and he blew it. The privilege has been revoked.
And of course, that's all assuming they're lying that his code S seed was meant for the Blizzard cup, which I doubt.
They just never properly communicated that the Blizzard cup would count as "code S" for the purpose of providence's MLG seeds. But I don't doubt that was their intention all along. People aren't mad at them revoking the seed anymore. People are mad that GomTV is lying not only to the community, but to their partner MLG. Like I said, I don't think it's lying. Just miscommunication. When designing the blizzard cup, they probably said "and we'll use the seed from Providence for this" but they never really made that clear to anyone else.
So instead of admitting that they are wrong, they are letting Naniwa take the fall for their mistake. Yeah, that seems real professional.
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On December 15 2011 08:41 TedJustice wrote:
Really, people don't seem to get what GOM is saying.
The Blizzard Cup spot Naniwa got IS the Code S spot he won. They are one in the same. He DID get a Code S spot from providence, and it was the Blizzard cup. It's basically Code S.
It's a tournament of the best of the best, hosted by GOMTV in korea, heavily intertwined with Code S (the top 3 code S points got seeded into it). It's just not technically called Code S. But it's all a part of the same GSL league.
There are no Code S or Code A spots in the Blizzard Cup. Stephano was not given a Code S spot for his IPL 3 victory, he was given a spot in the Blizzard Cup.
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On December 15 2011 08:42 eYeball wrote:Show nested quote +On December 15 2011 08:37 dp wrote:
I find it funny so many people say GOMTV is lying. Any of you people care to show a single announcement from GOMTV that nani was being given a code S spot? Anyone at all? Don't worry, I will wait.. Another user posted this: Show nested quote +On December 15 2011 08:19 Paladia wrote:On December 15 2011 06:33 GOMTV wrote:It seems like a lot of people have been under the impression that NaNiWa has received a Code S seed for taking 2nd place at MLG Providence. The truth however is that NaNiWa has received the right to compete in the Blizzard Cup for his 2nd place achievement at MLG Providence. Gom, why are you making this up? 1. Why were the two seeds called "INTERNATIONAL SEED" and the other one "MLG PROVIDENCE CODE S SEED" on your official website (which you in stealth changed today)? 2. Why did your own twitter comment say that you revoked his Code S seed (which you also, deleted today)? 3. Why was it announced on your official partners website that Naniwa has .. earned a seat in Code S? 4. And why does it say on your official website when you announced the partner program still (not had time to change that one yet, had you?) say that: At every 2011 Pro Circuit Live Competition after MLG Columbus, GSL placement will occur as follows:
Code S status will be awarded to the highest placing player, regardless of country of origin, who doesn't already have Code S status.What you are doing right now is much much worse than what Naniwa could ever do or any player has ever done in the history of Starcraft 2. You are falsely removing the prize of a tournament several months after the tournament has happened and trying to delete all evidence of it. This is worse than those tournaments who don't pay the prize money, as at least they acknowledge the fact that there is a prize. I really expected that your so called "honor" would be more than this. Removing one of the major prizes of a tournament, lying, deleting threads, in secret altering your own statements, I think all GomTV has built up was just thrown down the drain and I honestly wish that no player would ever have anything more to do with you. I don't see how you dare talk about "honor" or professionalism.
It could be that MLG misunderstood GOMTV's statements regarding the Seeds.
Wait until MLG's statement regarding this.
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That's a very self-serving and offensive post. It kind of just furthers my attitude that you are all incapable of being a professional organization, and that your demands for professionalism are laughable at best.
What has become apparent is that you only care about receiving your "due"; and that you believe that you can threaten and coerce people into compliance. This is not only horribly unprofessional, it is despicable.
I sincerely hope that your organization fails. I highly doubt that it will any time soon, but when it does, I will gladly dance on your metaphorical grave.
Peace.
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On December 15 2011 08:19 Paladia wrote:Show nested quote +On December 15 2011 06:33 GOMTV wrote:It seems like a lot of people have been under the impression that NaNiWa has received a Code S seed for taking 2nd place at MLG Providence. The truth however is that NaNiWa has received the right to compete in the Blizzard Cup for his 2nd place achievement at MLG Providence. Gom, why are you making this up? 1. Why were the two seeds called "INTERNATIONAL SEED" and the other one "MLG PROVIDENCE CODE S SEED" on your official website (which you in stealth changed today)? 2. Why did your own twitter comment say that you revoked his Code S seed (which you also, deleted today)? 3. Why was it announced on your official partners website that Naniwa has .. earned a seat in Code S? 4. And why does it say on your official website when you announced the partner program still (not had time to change that one yet, had you?) say that: At every 2011 Pro Circuit Live Competition after MLG Columbus, GSL placement will occur as follows:
Code S status will be awarded to the highest placing player, regardless of country of origin, who doesn't already have Code S status.What you are doing right now is much much worse than what Naniwa could ever do or any player has ever done in the history of Starcraft 2. You are falsely removing the prize of a tournament several months after the tournament has happened and trying to delete all evidence of it. This is worse than those tournaments who don't pay the prize money, as at least they acknowledge the fact that there is a prize. I really expected that your so called "honor" would be more than this. Removing one of the major prizes of a tournament, lying, deleting threads, in secret altering your own statements, I think all GomTV has built up was just thrown down the drain and I honestly wish that no player would ever have anything more to do with you. I don't see how you dare talk about "honor" or professionalism.
Best post =) Thank you, this all has been extremely fishy so it's nice that you have collected all the things that don't make sense into this post.
Luckily I've never supported GomTV with a cent so it's easy for me to keep doing so. No regrets.
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On December 15 2011 08:34 dAPhREAk wrote:Show nested quote +On December 15 2011 08:33 TedJustice wrote:
Some people don't seem to understand something.
Earning a Code S seed is not a "prize" or a "right".
It's a privilege. Whether they're lying about the providence seed or not, it's entirely within their right to remove him from the tournament despite his seed.
It's not revoking a prize. The prize was him having the privilege of a code S seed, and he blew it. The privilege has been revoked.
And of course, that's all assuming they're lying that his code S seed was meant for the Blizzard cup, which I doubt.
They just never properly communicated that the Blizzard cup would count as "code S" for the purpose of providence's MLG seeds. But I don't doubt that was their intention all along. i guess receiving the prize money is a privilege as well, which they can revoke willy-nilly. give me a break.
you're wrong
prize money is one of the terms in the legally bounding contract between 2 parties
naniwa did his part of the contract and if gomtv failed to give him the prize money, then they would be committing a felony
a code s seed is also one of the terms but of a contract that has NOT YET been executed and not this contract
GOMtv wasn't very satisfied with the results of a previous contract that happened betweem them and naniwa (blizzcup) and thus have voided a contract which was going to happen but never did
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I personally think there was a huge misunderstanding from everyone on both sides about the MLG Providence seed. If we recall, the GSL-MLG exchange program is only for the 2011 season. Not 2012, not 2010, only the 2011 season. I believe the upper echelons of GOM knew what the changes were, but the lower levels were not briefed as well. Because the top non code S guy in MLG always got the code S seed, everyone, including GOM, MLG, the players, the teams, etc, assumed that Naniwa was going to be code S next season. Instead, the supposed code S seed was actually a seed in the final GOM tournament of 2011, the Blizzard Cup.
I think it was just both sides got way too used to the format, and made statements that they did not understand. I felt as though the new format made it clear that there were changes, I mean, where would there be multiple code S seeds, code a seeds, and up and down seeds? The GSL-MLG exchange program does not address these changes at all. that is at least six seeds given out compared to the four from before. I was under the impression from the beginning that the MLG Providence Seed went to blizzcup and a new format would properly start next year. They are already getting two international seeds for the GSL November up and down matches after all. Naniwa i thought was out of the running for the seeds
So then why did everyone think Naniwa got Code S seed for next year? I think before the incident, GOM had already decided that Naniwa was going to get one of the seeds, similar to how we project bowl games. They are not always cemented, but its obvious who's gonna go where. This is because Naniwa was the highest placed person that wasn't in Code S. There would be no disputes, no questions asked. You can't argue with results. No one can really say he isn't worthy. There wasn't any controversy when they picked people for MVP's other two seeds because it was logical. Naniwa was the logical decision, and everyone was still guessing the other seed. Naniwa was not 100% in, but was pretty much 99% into the GSL code S, but this incident was the 1% thing that could happen. Just my two cents.
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On December 15 2011 08:39 TedJustice wrote:Show nested quote +On December 15 2011 08:36 scintilliaSD wrote:On December 15 2011 08:33 TedJustice wrote:
Some people don't seem to understand something.
Earning a Code S seed is not a "prize" or a "right".
It's a privilege. Whether they're lying about the providence seed or not, it's entirely within their right to remove him from the tournament despite his seed.
It's not revoking a prize. The prize was him having the privilege of a code S seed, and he blew it. The privilege has been revoked.
And of course, that's all assuming they're lying that his code S seed was meant for the Blizzard cup, which I doubt.
They just never properly communicated that the Blizzard cup would count as "code S" for the purpose of providence's MLG seeds. But I don't doubt that was their intention all along. People aren't mad at them revoking the seed anymore. People are mad that GomTV is lying not only to the community, but to their partner MLG. Like I said, I don't think it's lying. Just miscommunication. When designing the blizzard cup, they probably said "and we'll use the seed from Providence for this" but they never really made that clear to anyone else.
This is serious stuff though and they should be careful. Forgetting to inform us about such a radical change and such an exception to a previous agreement might even be worse than lying for some people.
I don't think this happened though. I think they decided overnight that they will justify their decision by selling this story.
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On December 15 2011 08:42 eYeball wrote:Show nested quote +On December 15 2011 08:37 dp wrote:
I find it funny so many people say GOMTV is lying. Any of you people care to show a single announcement from GOMTV that nani was being given a code S spot? Anyone at all? Don't worry, I will wait.. Another user posted this: Show nested quote +On December 15 2011 08:19 Paladia wrote:On December 15 2011 06:33 GOMTV wrote:It seems like a lot of people have been under the impression that NaNiWa has received a Code S seed for taking 2nd place at MLG Providence. The truth however is that NaNiWa has received the right to compete in the Blizzard Cup for his 2nd place achievement at MLG Providence. Gom, why are you making this up? 1. Why were the two seeds called "INTERNATIONAL SEED" and the other one "MLG PROVIDENCE CODE S SEED" on your official website (which you in stealth changed today)? 2. Why did your own twitter comment say that you revoked his Code S seed (which you also, deleted today)? 3. Why was it announced on your official partners website that Naniwa has .. earned a seat in Code S? 4. And why does it say on your official website when you announced the partner program still (not had time to change that one yet, had you?) say that: At every 2011 Pro Circuit Live Competition after MLG Columbus, GSL placement will occur as follows:
Code S status will be awarded to the highest placing player, regardless of country of origin, who doesn't already have Code S status.What you are doing right now is much much worse than what Naniwa could ever do or any player has ever done in the history of Starcraft 2. You are falsely removing the prize of a tournament several months after the tournament has happened and trying to delete all evidence of it. This is worse than those tournaments who don't pay the prize money, as at least they acknowledge the fact that there is a prize. I really expected that your so called "honor" would be more than this. Removing one of the major prizes of a tournament, lying, deleting threads, in secret altering your own statements, I think all GomTV has built up was just thrown down the drain and I honestly wish that no player would ever have anything more to do with you. I don't see how you dare talk about "honor" or professionalism.
people keep quoting this, but the statement makes two references to material that were allegedly modified today (and in stealth). i would love to see the actual modifications rather than some random poster saying it on this website.
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On December 15 2011 08:41 strongandbig wrote:
Oh, also it sounds like what I've been saying for a while is true - gom just unilaterally canceled the mlg exchange program. I hope mlg shows an equal leek of "respect" to the gsl and stops inviting Koreans straight I to group play. Or at least stops letting directly invited Koreans earn rank points without playing through the open racket like everyone else.
I think this would be about the dumbest thing MLG could do from a business perspective. It (to many) delegitimizes their entire tournament if they don't have good Koreans there.
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On December 15 2011 08:43 JiPrime wrote:Show nested quote +On December 15 2011 08:42 eYeball wrote:On December 15 2011 08:37 dp wrote:
I find it funny so many people say GOMTV is lying. Any of you people care to show a single announcement from GOMTV that nani was being given a code S spot? Anyone at all? Don't worry, I will wait.. Another user posted this: On December 15 2011 08:19 Paladia wrote:On December 15 2011 06:33 GOMTV wrote:It seems like a lot of people have been under the impression that NaNiWa has received a Code S seed for taking 2nd place at MLG Providence. The truth however is that NaNiWa has received the right to compete in the Blizzard Cup for his 2nd place achievement at MLG Providence. Gom, why are you making this up? 1. Why were the two seeds called "INTERNATIONAL SEED" and the other one "MLG PROVIDENCE CODE S SEED" on your official website (which you in stealth changed today)? 2. Why did your own twitter comment say that you revoked his Code S seed (which you also, deleted today)? 3. Why was it announced on your official partners website that Naniwa has .. earned a seat in Code S? 4. And why does it say on your official website when you announced the partner program still (not had time to change that one yet, had you?) say that: At every 2011 Pro Circuit Live Competition after MLG Columbus, GSL placement will occur as follows:
Code S status will be awarded to the highest placing player, regardless of country of origin, who doesn't already have Code S status.What you are doing right now is much much worse than what Naniwa could ever do or any player has ever done in the history of Starcraft 2. You are falsely removing the prize of a tournament several months after the tournament has happened and trying to delete all evidence of it. This is worse than those tournaments who don't pay the prize money, as at least they acknowledge the fact that there is a prize. I really expected that your so called "honor" would be more than this. Removing one of the major prizes of a tournament, lying, deleting threads, in secret altering your own statements, I think all GomTV has built up was just thrown down the drain and I honestly wish that no player would ever have anything more to do with you. I don't see how you dare talk about "honor" or professionalism. It could be that MLG misunderstood GOMTV's statements regarding the Seeds. Wait until MLG's statement regarding this.
This is something big, something they talked a lot about, in writing and contracts.
There was no miscommunication.
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EPT
