EPTTherefor a statement like this damages the legitimacy of GOM, I for once feel robbed. This is not professional at all, this is editing of information to fit thier agenda. Above all it's so damn unjust, I feel sad.
GOMTV Announcement regarding NaNiWa - Page 38
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SayTT
Sweden2158 Posts
Therefor a statement like this damages the legitimacy of GOM, I for once feel robbed. This is not professional at all, this is editing of information to fit thier agenda. Above all it's so damn unjust, I feel sad. | ||
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ffdestiny
United States773 Posts
“Not only progamers but professional athletes in every sport prove and showcase their skill through the game and by doing so entertain their fans.” This is a general statement, “X does this and it influences y in a positive way” because the fans are entertained. There are many sports where the players fight hand-to-hand, for example, where blood is drawn, where expletives are spoken… where the fans are at each others’ throats—hecklers and riots too. Are we not entertained? Are these things not politically correct? Why must you lump Starcraft in with every other sport to explain your argument? Because it makes you look superior, like you are the big sport’s man on campus... incredibly egotistical. “Since professional athletes do this for a living, competing in tournaments is a means to make money in order to sustain their livelihoods. While money is an essential factor in a professional athlete’s life, it is a sincere competitive spirit that enables a mere athlete to become a professional athlete. This spirit entails the will to improve, work hard and try one's best no matter what. It also encompasses a mutual respect between those who share the title of professional athlete, which consequently leads to a certain code of professional conduct. “ Thank you for the definition on what a professional athlete is, but it is patronizing. Why do you place important on money in the argument of your statement? We can agree that there are many reasons why, let us just call them Starcraft pros, play the game. NaNiWa, for example, has stated continually that he plays for what you would call the “competitive spirit.” Therefore, by your rule of measurement, he has (within him) a fierce drive to be the best and that makes him a true player. Is it not wrong to assume that he has a fierce, competitive spirit? It is entirely ridiculous to dance around that fact and cop out on “professional conduct.” We are talking about Starcraft, where Koreans for as far as I can remember, would throw games (Savior plus ten other players, anyone?), mock their opponents (Firebathero?), or lose games because they were frustrated in MSL/OSL. Yet, it is all Naniwa’s fault for probe rushing? Hello, do you remember Boxer? He invented rushing. “Korean e-sports fans generally share this understanding of the term 'professional athlete’ or in this case 'progamer', and might be less likely to tolerate a deviation from these core values compared to overseas communities.” Once again, this statement patronizes and ostracizes the very large audience that feeds Starcraft 2. It is obvious that this statement believes, or is under the assumption that there are different types of people, and that itself is strikingly perturbing. “A lot of people share the opinion that NaNiWa has not broken any rules and should therefore not receive any punishment.” If you read the Team Liquid thread, for example, benchmarking would indicate the sides are split on the matter… extremely overstated and generalized. “It is true that NaNiWa has not taken actions that break any explicit rules, like for example using a cheat to gain an unfair advantage. NaNiWa has however purposefully not tried his best and shown this in a disrespectful manner. This was not only disappointing for his opponent NesTea and the GSL, but also for the many fans who had anticipated a great match. This behavior does not match with the definition of a progamer as laid out in the paragraph above.” The statement begins by saying NaNiWa did not break any rules, so thank you for agreeing. I would also pay attention to Nestea’s horrible final match at Blizzcon where he threw away his enormous advantage in the game. We were upset at his lack of care in that game, but we did not publicly out him. In addition, it is obviously not NaNiWa’s fault for this tournament having rules that force uninteresting games like this, now is it? “We want to make clear that NaNiWa will not be banned from the GSL for his actions. We will however revoke his candidacy for a Code S seed, which means that he will have to requalify for the GSL.” This punishment is severely twisted. First, the statement claims NaNiWa did not break any rules. Second, there is no support to punish NaNi, absolutely none, other than some fans being upset. By using this evidence, can you also revoke most of the Korean’s Code-S spots, too, because I am awfully tired of watching Terran versus Terran, and I am offended. | ||
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Crisco
1170 Posts
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Wiseau
Canada17 Posts
On December 15 2011 06:33 GOMTV wrote: It is true that NaNiWa has not taken actions that break any explicit rules... We will however revoke his candidacy for a Code S seed... It seems like a lot of people have been under the impression that NaNiWa has received a Code S seed for taking 2nd place at MLG Providence. The truth however is that NaNiWa has received the right to compete in the Blizzard Cup for his 2nd place achievement at MLG Providence. Pro Circuit Players Competing in the GSL At MLG Columbus, the Top 3 non-Korean finishers will each be placed into GSL Code A. At every 2011 Pro Circuit Live Competition after MLG Columbus, GSL placement will occur as follows: Code S status will be awarded to the highest placing player, regardless of country of origin, who doesn't already have Code S status. Seems to me he broke no contractual obligations and was promised a seed by all of GOM's statements.. But he doesn't get a seed and is in shit for.. Not being allowed to forfeit a match? This simply baffles me here. | ||
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zeru
8156 Posts
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dAPhREAk
Nauru12397 Posts
On December 15 2011 08:33 TedJustice wrote: Some people don't seem to understand something. Earning a Code S seed is not a "prize" or a "right". It's a privilege. Whether they're lying about the providence seed or not, it's entirely within their right to remove him from the tournament despite his seed. It's not revoking a prize. The prize was him having the privilege of a code S seed, and he blew it. The privilege has been revoked. And of course, that's all assuming they're lying that his code S seed was meant for the Blizzard cup, which I doubt. They just never properly communicated that the Blizzard cup would count as "code S" for the purpose of providence's MLG seeds. But I don't doubt that was their intention all along. i guess receiving the prize money is a privilege as well, which they can revoke willy-nilly. give me a break. | ||
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Rannasha
Netherlands2398 Posts
On December 15 2011 08:27 kidd wrote: Get your mind right. GSL/MLG partnership IS for 2011. Final tournament of 2011, for GOM, is blizzcup instead of normal GSL then altering the deal between GOM and MLG at that point. If you want to complain about that change, complain about the blizzard cup tournament. GSL 2012 has a new format and they don't have to defend NOT announcing the changes for it before a stupid, unexpected incident happens. That's not what it said in the announcements on both the MLG and GSL websites though. It speaks of a reward for players that perform well at a 2011 MLG event. Nowhere does it state that the reward is only applicable for 2011 GSL tourneys. The Blizzard Cup seed is clearly inferior to a Code S seed for someone with the intention to stay and compete in Korea. And even with the new system, GOM could've fit in the MLG Providence Code S seed, after all, there's 2 seeds open. For the 2012 MLG events, they could've renegotiated the deal if they wanted too. GOM is just using the confusion regarding their new system to change the rules in a way that suits them best. They speak of honour and respect, but show very little of it themselves. | ||
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flagg
Sweden123 Posts
On December 15 2011 08:18 mechavoc wrote: This makes me a bit more confused, I really thought the MLG 2nd place was a 100% lock for a code s spot. It was until a couple of hours ago. It says so on GomTV, it says so on mlg, the teams thought so, GomTV:s casters thought so and Naniwa thought so. Apperently GomTV had no idea that everybody except them thought this, their partners mlg didn't understand/hadn't red the contract and they wrote a faulty explaination on their webpage... | ||
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Intricate1
169 Posts
He's doing business oversea's afterall. Naniwa may be one of the best Starcraft players in the world, but I think he needs to learn how to play the 'game' a little better if he wants wants to succeed. | ||
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Paladia
802 Posts
On December 15 2011 08:24 Kazeyonoma wrote: What? This is the only announcement gom ever made official: in terms of their format, this has always been how it looked, there never was a "PROVIDENCE SEED" put on there. Stop spreading propoganda about GOM ninja'ing their own stuff, they never needed to make a change to this file. I have it on my desktop to try to create a better format of it to explain it when they first announced this back in october or whatever. They haven't changed shit. I don't recall their twitter stating they "banned" him either, it was a mistranslation... jeezus christ. http://www.gomtv.net/2011gslsponsors3/news/65291 ? | ||
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ForJungSooYeon
Canada63 Posts
On December 15 2011 08:19 Paladia wrote: Gom, why are you making this up? 1. Why were the two seeds called "INTERNATIONAL SEED" and the other one "MLG PROVIDENCE CODE S SEED" on your official website (which you in stealth changed today)? 2. Why did your own twitter comment say that you revoked his Code S seed (which you also, deleted today)? 3. Why was it announced on your official partners website that Naniwa has .. earned a seat in Code S? 4. And why does it say on your official website when you announced the partner program still (not had time to change that one yet, had you?) say that: At every 2011 Pro Circuit Live Competition after MLG Columbus, GSL placement will occur as follows: Code S status will be awarded to the highest placing player, regardless of country of origin, who doesn't already have Code S status. What you are doing right now is much much worse than what Naniwa could ever do or any player has ever done in the history of Starcraft 2. You are falsely removing the prize of a tournament several months after the tournament has happened and trying to delete all evidence of it. This is worse than those tournaments who don't pay the prize money, as at least they acknowledge the fact that there is a prize. I really expected that your so called "honor" would be more than this. Removing one of the major prizes of a tournament, lying, deleting threads, in secret altering your own statements, I think all GomTV has built up was just thrown down the drain and I honestly wish that no player would ever have anything more to do with you. I don't see how you dare talk about "honor" or professionalism. THIS! I want an GOMTV official response to this post. Until then... OCCUPY GOMTV | ||
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farnham
1378 Posts
On December 15 2011 08:34 Wiseau wrote: Seems to me he broke no contractual obligations and was promised a seed by all of GOM's statements.. But he doesn't get a seed and is in shit for.. Not being allowed to forfeit a match? This simply baffles me here. he did breach contractual obligations | ||
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Too_MuchZerg
Finland2818 Posts
Let me give example: Backho GG incident against Firefist (OSL Ro36). Backho typed ggyo to chat which indicated he lost the game, but actually he was trying to predict firefist "gg" timing and be prepared for it. He got win anyways. But why is this important for players to have simple rules? Of course keeping fanbase and solid income for their progamer careers. Because KeSPA didn't have clear rule about "gg" (which they changed and Leta PP happened --> changed rules again later). KeSPA referees was getting responses from both players and what you would do here if you would be Firefist? Of course you can't get the win because fans (korean netizens) would be disappointed about that. What if KeSPA decided it based on rule, who gets blame now? KeSPA gets it. That brings us to income. Of course pay jump from Ro36 to RO16 is kinda small but let say it would have been bigger money RO4 -> Finals. Even losing he gets decent amount of money at finals. If there would have been rule about "gg" then decision would be different. Nobody blames players but referees (KeSPA) gets all blame. What does this do about this issue we have here? Well GOMTV should be taking actions about changing tournament rules (format too) and be ready to take the hit. By this way players feel more safe because they know rules and they trust GOM staff to follow those, no outside influence to ruling. Of course they would take the blame but people (fans, stream people, etc) do forget it in time and players wont be leaving tournament because they know rules are fair for all players. If rules are bad then you change it before next season starts but before that you have to follow current rules. | ||
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Executor1
1353 Posts
He could have easily been kicked off of his team and suspended or banned for a much longer amount of time. As seen by coca byun incident its usually the teams that try to take action first to avoid emberrassment in korea. Naniwa should consider himself lucky that he is on such an understanding foreign team. | ||
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Krymming
Sweden38 Posts
On December 15 2011 06:33 GOMTV wrote: Dear Teamliquid.net users, 1. GSL's stance toward the NaNiWa incident Not only progamers, but professional athletes in every sports prove and showcase their skill through the game and by doing so entertain their fans. Since professional athletes do this for a living, competing in tournaments is a means to make money in order to sustain themselves. While money is an essential factor in a professional athlete’s life, it is the sincere competitive spirit that enables a mere athlete to become a professional athlete. This spirit entails the will to improve, work hard and try one's best no matter what. It also encompasses a mutual respect between those who share the title of professional athlete, which consequently leads to a certain code of professional conduct. It is this underlying competitive spirit, which goes beyond and is unrelated to any amount of prize money, of every professional athlete that touches and entertains many fans. We believe that the reason why so many people are such avid fans of baseball, soccer or e-sports has next to nothing to do with money. Korean e-sports fans generally share this understanding of the term 'professional athlete’ or in this case 'progamer', and might be less likely to tolerate a deviation from these core values compared to overseas communities. A lot of people share the opinion that NaNiWa has not broken any rules and should therefore not receive any punishment. It is true that NaNiWa has not taken actions that break any explicit rules, like for example using a cheat to gain an unfair advantage. NaNiWa has however purposefully not tried his best and shown this in a disrespectful manner. This was not only disappointing for his opponent NesTea and the GSL, but also for the many fans who had anticipated a great match. This behavior does not match with the definition of a progamer as laid out in the paragraph above. We do however not doubt the sincerity of NaNiWa's competitive spirit. NaNiWa has come the long way to Korea just to compete in the GSL after all. We know very well how hard it is and the determination it takes to come to a foreign country and take the challenge to compete. We want to make clear that NaNiWa will not be banned from the GSL for his actions. We will however revoke his candidacy for a Code S seed, which means that he will have to requalify for the GSL. GomTV seems to have added a new rule along the lines of, we keep the right to punish players for behavior we deem not fit for gamers. | ||
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ElephantBaby
United States1365 Posts
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Clbull
United Kingdom1439 Posts
On December 15 2011 08:28 HandleTaken wrote: Actually I think MLG will try hard to sort this mess out. Not because they care about Naniwa. But because they want the players to be able to trust MLG in the future. (Before anyone puts words into my mouth I'm not saying MLG has done anything wrong) I agree with you, when MLG are actually investigating this themselves, you know they are going to consider a serious response on the issue. My prediction is that they're going to try and help NaNiwa get his seed back to try and ensure that he would get what he rightfully won under the terms of the League Exchange Programme. | ||
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m0ck
4194 Posts
On December 15 2011 08:27 kidd wrote: Get your mind right. GSL/MLG partnership IS for 2011. Final tournament of 2011, for GOM, is blizzcup instead of normal GSL then altering the deal between GOM and MLG at that point. If you want to complain about that change, complain about the blizzard cup tournament. GSL 2012 has a new format and they don't have to defend NOT announcing the changes for it before a stupid, unexpected incident happens. What GOM did is more than fine with me, I expected worse and feel they shouldn't even need to defend themselves. It's just unprofessional and people get fired for lack of professionalism. I understand where Naniwa is coming from not trying in an inconsequential game, but he knew what he was getting into and knew he'd have to play out regardless of results and GOM is just showing that's unacceptable to them. So, you see no problem in GOM not informing any of the parties involved (not the player naniwa, who is establishing himself in korea under the assumption that hes taking part in code S/not his team/not their business-partner/not the community) that the format has changed, and that naniwa no longer has a guaranteed spot in the GSL code S? You have to take such a leap of faith in order to make GOMs story make sense. And even if you do, GOM has acted incredibly careless, not informing anyone of their change of plans. | ||
520
United States2822 Posts
On December 15 2011 08:33 TedJustice wrote: Some people don't seem to understand something. Earning a Code S seed is not a "prize" or a "right". It's a privilege. Whether they're lying about the providence seed or not, it's entirely within their right to remove him from the tournament despite his seed. It's not revoking a prize. The prize was him having the privilege of a code S seed, and he blew it. The privilege has been revoked. And of course, that's all assuming they're lying that his code S seed was meant for the Blizzard cup, which I doubt. They just never properly communicated that the Blizzard cup would count as "code S" for the purpose of providence's MLG seeds. But I don't doubt that was their intention all along. People aren't mad at them revoking the seed anymore. People are mad that GomTV is lying not only to the community, but to their partner MLG. | ||
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getSome[703]
United States753 Posts
On December 15 2011 08:19 Paladia wrote: Gom, why are you making this up? 1. Why were the two seeds called "INTERNATIONAL SEED" and the other one "MLG PROVIDENCE CODE S SEED" on your official website (which you in stealth changed today)? 2. Why did your own twitter comment say that you revoked his Code S seed (which you also, deleted today)? 3. Why was it announced on your official partners website that Naniwa has .. earned a seat in Code S? 4. And why does it say on your official website when you announced the partner program still (not had time to change that one yet, had you?) say that: At every 2011 Pro Circuit Live Competition after MLG Columbus, GSL placement will occur as follows: Code S status will be awarded to the highest placing player, regardless of country of origin, who doesn't already have Code S status. What you are doing right now is much much worse than what Naniwa could ever do or any player has ever done in the history of Starcraft 2. You are falsely removing the prize of a tournament several months after the tournament has happened and trying to delete all evidence of it. This is worse than those tournaments who don't pay the prize money, as at least they acknowledge the fact that there is a prize. I really expected that your so called "honor" would be more than this. Removing one of the major prizes of a tournament, lying, deleting threads, in secret altering your own statements, I think all GomTV has built up was just thrown down the drain and I honestly wish that no player would ever have anything more to do with you. I don't see how you dare talk about "honor" or professionalism. I really hope this isn't true. Naniwa is clearly being shitted on. Not buying a GOM pass this season. | ||
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