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On December 15 2011 08:21 Denzil wrote:Show nested quote +On December 15 2011 08:18 LimitedSc2 wrote:On December 15 2011 06:41 Hydrox911 wrote:
Im sorry, but I do like the stance gomtv has taken to this and am very disappointed. The thing you have to understand is that you have taken away Naniwa's code s spot. He was going to be in code s --> incidenent happens ----> No seed. For me at least, its gomtv who looks the worst out this occasion. You have to clearer what the rules are and , as has been discussed in other threads, not have these vague rules which gomtv seems to have used against naniwa. Be clear with your rules. Very disappointed and In my opinion, there is a large part of blame for having pointless games in the first place. You seem to purely have reacted according to Korean netizen reactions and not having clear rules, just making them up as you feel fitting.
Sorry Gom, but this is my opinion and don't feel like supporting gomtv right now. Thanks
I don't understand why anyone would be against this. It is almost like an employer granting an applicant a job offer, but then the employer later found out that this applicant is not fit for the job or is simply not "professional," and then consequentially refused to honor that job offer to the applicant. In the professional business world, this is completely acceptable and practical, or at least in American standards. People need to realize that shit like this should not be taken for granted. It is not Naniwa's prerogative to compete in Code S. Instead it was simply a privilege for him contingent upon doing well in MLG Providence. No more, no less. Simple as that, but people always tend to exaggerate the situation. I think GOMTV did the right decision, and hopefully naniwa won't be so blunt in the future. What? What's wrong with that, If the applicant is not suitable for the job then I shouldn't have to give him a job. That's a rather bad analogy.
Maybe you misunderstood what i said, which i don't see how that is possible. In this case, i am siding with GOM. Think of GOM as the employer and naniwa as the employee who didn't hold up to his bargain, or wasn't professional enough
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Calgary25998 Posts
On December 15 2011 08:18 mechavoc wrote:
This makes me a bit more confused, I really thought the MLG 2nd place was a 100% lock for a code s spot.
It was. For IdrA and SEn.
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On December 15 2011 08:19 Paladia wrote:Show nested quote +On December 15 2011 06:33 GOMTV wrote:It seems like a lot of people have been under the impression that NaNiWa has received a Code S seed for taking 2nd place at MLG Providence. The truth however is that NaNiWa has received the right to compete in the Blizzard Cup for his 2nd place achievement at MLG Providence. Gom, why are you making this up? 1. Why were the two seeds called "INTERNATIONAL SEED" and the other one "MLG PROVIDENCE CODE S SEED" on your official website (which you in stealth changed today)? 2. Why did your own twitter comment say that you revoked his Code S seed (which you also, deleted today)? 3. Why was it announced on your official partners website that Naniwa has .. earned a seat in Code S? 4. And why does it still say on your official website when you announced the partner program still (not had time to change that one yet, had you?) say that: At every 2011 Pro Circuit Live Competition after MLG Columbus, GSL placement will occur as follows:
Code S status will be awarded to the highest placing player, regardless of country of origin, who doesn't already have Code S status.What you are doing right now is much much worse than what Naniwa could ever do or any player has ever done in the history of Starcraft 2. You are falsely removing the prize of a tournament several months after the tournament has happened and trying to delete all evidence of it. This is worse than those tournaments who don't pay the prize money, as at least they acknowledge the fact that there is a prize. I really expected that your so called "honor" would be more than this. Removing one of the major prizes of a tournament, lying, deleting threads, in secret altering your own statements, I think all GomTV has built up was just thrown down the drain and I honestly wish that no player would ever have anything more to do with you. I don't see how you dare talk about "honor" or professionalism.
It really is pretty ugly. Further proof:
On December 15 2011 08:09 illsick wrote:and something that is strange is also this: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=293877Nani: "Even if I win Blizzard Cup nothing will change. I think prestige is important but in my opinion Code S is the most prestigious tournament in the world. So I want to continue challenge myself in Code S." What was the interviewer thinking after a response like that? No one in the GOM studio cared to correct him by saying that he wasn't in code S yet but that he was in the running for a spot with other foreigners? I think that GOM was lying, they had opportunities to claim otherwise about the code S spot in question when all different types of media announced that nani had earned it, including one of the two parties involved with the exchange program (MLG). I think it was easier for them to say people had the wrong impression that naniwa got a code S spot (I mean how could someone have the right impression when all sorts of media stated otherwise?) than to say he was kicked out of code S.
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On December 15 2011 08:19 Clbull wrote:If the incident led to them revoking his Code S seed then to be frank, it is a direct punishment, no matter how differently GOMTV paints the picture. Show nested quote +It seems like a lot of people have been under the impression that NaNiWa has received a Code S seed for taking 2nd place at MLG Providence. The truth however is that NaNiWa has received the right to compete in the Blizzard Cup for his 2nd place achievement at MLG Providence. And arguing that the Blizzard Cup was the seed NaNiwa received from Providence just doesn't match the League Exchange Programme agenda, which clearly and bluntly stated the following: - The first place finisher would receive a spot in the following season's Code S. - The subsequent top three placing non Korean players would receive spots in the following season's Code A. Are people really going to buy GOMTV's bullshit on the issue? Because I am absolutely sure that a spot in the Blizzard Cup does not count as a "Code S seed" under the League Exchange Programme. It was already established beforehand that the 1st and 2nd place finishers at MLG Providence 2011 would receive spots in the Blizzard Cup. Besides, it seems like a pretty dickheaded move to state that the first ever non-Korean to actually become eligible for a Code S seed didn't actually earn that but an invitation to a crappy invitational tournament with nowhere near as much pestige, prize money or even a half-decent format. Bo1 group stages where only 20% of players can actually advance further in the tournament instantly makie for worthless games like the one we've just seen between NaNiwa and NesTea. And it still doesn't justify or even apologise for what Mr Chae rudely and angrily said about NaNiwa being an ameteur prize pool hunter. Based on common sense, I'd still boycott the GSL if I actually watched it.
I basically agree but the highest placed finisher who isn't already in Code S and 60%
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I understand why you did it and I totally disagree with it. Your competition and your rules, which also means your responsibility to make for a good setting that creates good games and promotes following a 'professional code'. You can't just put all the responsibility on the individual players and making a rewarding setting yourself is a much better solution to your percieved problem than relying on the players fearing your punishments.
Examples would be:
- Skipping games that are for nothing or making a setup where all games count.
- Having rules for things that will get you punished that you can know about before getting kicked out of code S.
- Communicating such rules to the players in a clear way.
I also don't the announcement like calling it something other than the punishment that it is by going in circles around how he was just 'considered'. De facto it's obvious from the situation and announcement that nani would have been in code S if not for this so called incident, and that he was in effect kicked out. You should just be honest about that.
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On December 15 2011 08:19 Truthful wrote:Show nested quote +On December 15 2011 07:34 Eppa! wrote:On December 15 2011 07:28 MiXyass wrote:
Anybody that says KESPA would've handled this situation better has no idea what they are talking about
KESPA was not only strict about what happened on their own tournaments but they were strict on what happened outside of tournaments so that the players can display the best games possible on television
If this happened under KESPA naniwa would be 100% banned forever in any korean tournament
KESPA would not punish someone for not breaking a rule. KESPA was hard on players but not close to as subjective as GomTV. Its like Singapore vs Pakistan. actually KeSPA would have banned nani for good. no need for statements afterwards. professional etiquette which includes implicit rules of sportsmanship and competition are a fucking given.
KeSPA would not ban someone for probe rushing. Ask Nal_Ra. It's none of their business what strategy a player uses.
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On December 15 2011 08:23 chadissilent wrote:Show nested quote +On December 15 2011 08:17 mango_destroyer wrote:On December 15 2011 08:16 AlexP wrote:On December 15 2011 08:12 iamthedave wrote:On December 15 2011 08:09 Starcraftmazter wrote:On December 15 2011 08:07 JoeSchmoe wrote:
i think you need to get your brain checked. This is exactly what I am talking about. Most people who are supporting GOM in this are little kids who resort to insults, and never stage any counter-arguments. How can you be expected to be taken seriously ? How do you explain the SlayersCoca incident, where a Korean - contrary to your claims - was banned from Code S AND brutally punished by his team for throwing a game? he never was banned from Code S/gom, but instead forfeited it by himself. Well Choya was banned from GSL for a season for doing rocks paper scissors on ladder. IdrA just did this on his stream vs SlayerSCella yesterday. He got the Code S invite today.
Gee, it's almost like they only act based on kneejerk community reactions and not actual professionalism!
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On December 15 2011 07:57 Hnnngg wrote:Show nested quote +On December 15 2011 07:54 zeru wrote:On December 15 2011 07:53 Hnnngg wrote:On December 15 2011 07:51 zeru wrote:On December 15 2011 07:50 lightsentry wrote:
i suppose since there was no gsl dec blizzard cup was more or less gsl december code s right? blizzard cup isnt comparable to code S. if they actually changed the providence prize to a blizzcup spot, they announced false prizes at mlg. Yeah no, it was always top 2 at Providence gets to go to BlizzCup. You think they get Code S and BlizzCup? Yeah right, good shit. blizzcup was for major tournament winners. providence prize was code S spot. Uh you should check the BlizzCup on liquidpedia. Top 3 GSL points, MLG Providence top 2, IEM NY winner, IPL3 winner, DH winter winner, Blizzcon winner, and WCG winner. So you think Naniwa should get to go to Code S AND be invited to BlizzCup? Hilarious.
It seems to me that it went down like this
1) Naniwa was given (or was planned to be given) his code S seed for his placement in MLG
2) He was invited to blizz cup because he was a prominent foreigner with good results
3) After what happened in blizz cup, GOM decided to say that his reward for MLG placement was blizz cup, when in reality he was invited to that not b/c of MLG. However since GOM gave that to him, they use it like a scapegoat.
It's almost like a bait and switch. Promise (or at least indicate) that you'll get one prize, then give another and say "you expect to get both?"
All being said though, the only problem I have with GOM in all of this, is how did they choose who got the Code S spots? Where was it indicated that they would choose the code S spots in this manner? There needs to be accountability for their choosing of code S spots to foreigners, as this is showing them to be inconsistent.
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Ok, so GOM already announced some time ago that the format of GSL was going to be changed and there would be 2 foreign invites to Code S(unless I'm totally wrong) called sponsor invites or something, maybe each season.
MLGs exchange program only lasts out 2011.
Now isn't it obvious that due to the format change that the 2012 seeds would have to be worked out differently from 2011 since the GSL seasons now are much longer? Is it just something I'm not seeing?
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On December 15 2011 08:13 Eppa! wrote:Show nested quote +On December 15 2011 08:12 DarkSider wrote:On December 15 2011 08:03 oBlade wrote:On December 15 2011 07:57 DarkSider wrote:
Some said manner mules are offensive. Ok go ahead and write a perfect valid rule that should outlaw manner mules when you think you've won the game.
Think how to differentiate dropping mules with the intent of showing to your opponent it's over or dropping them with the intent of repairing your army. Dropping them as accident instead scanning - Is 1 mule an accident ok ? 2 mules ok ? 3 ? Where do you draw the line when it's clear he was intentionally spamming mules and wasn't a finger shake from the emotion ?
Maybe if you drop them close to your army can be seen as a genuine attempt to repair your army ? Ok so let's make it at most 2 inches further from your farther unit on a 19 inch monitor it's allowed to drop mules.
Oh hey but when i intended to drop the mule that hellion was still alive and my mule was in the rules. I was slow, the animation was slow and when my mule dropped the hellion was dead leaving my mule in offside !! But why would you ever have a rule stipulating something about what happens inside the game mechanics to begin with? Because some said dropping mules it's offensive and should be a rule against it. Not everything that happens inside the game is allowed you know .. you need again common sense to know that you can't write DICK with pylons when playing in GSL. There is no explicit rule about it but i'm sure the player who'd do that would get a big kick in the ass. There are explicit rules about offending audience and other players. DICK with pylons seems to easily fit into this. Probe rushing not so much.
There is nothing explicit about that at all. It's again common sense to judge if that's offensive or not. What if somebody writes DOG ? Is it offensive ? For some it's offensive for others it's ohh so sweet he wrote Dog because he dedicated this game to a homeless dog he met 3 days ago. What if he write Yellow ? Again some will lol and some will find it racist and intolerable. There are many words that can give different reactions to different people but GOM will use their common sense and evaluate each case.
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On December 15 2011 08:20 Namu wrote:Show nested quote +On December 15 2011 08:19 Clbull wrote:If the incident led to them revoking his Code S seed then to be frank, it is a direct punishment, no matter how differently GOMTV paints the picture. It seems like a lot of people have been under the impression that NaNiWa has received a Code S seed for taking 2nd place at MLG Providence. The truth however is that NaNiWa has received the right to compete in the Blizzard Cup for his 2nd place achievement at MLG Providence. And arguing that the Blizzard Cup was the seed NaNiwa received from Providence just doesn't match the League Exchange Programme agenda, which clearly and bluntly stated the following: - The first place finisher would receive a spot in the following season's Code S. - The subsequent top three placing non Korean players would receive spots in the following season's Code A. Are people really going to buy GOMTV's bullshit on the issue? Because I am absolutely sure that a spot in the Blizzard Cup does not count as a "Code S seed" under the League Exchange Programme. It was already established beforehand that the 1st and 2nd place finishers at MLG Providence 2011 would receive spots in the Blizzard Cup. Besides, it seems like a pretty dickheaded move to state that the first ever non-Korean to actually become eligible for a Code S seed didn't actually earn that but an invitation to a crappy invitational tournament with nowhere near as much pestige, prize money or even a half-decent format. Bo1 group stages where only 20% of players can actually advance further in the tournament instantly makie for worthless games like the one we've just seen between NaNiwa and NesTea. And it still doesn't justify or even apologise for what Mr Chae rudely and angrily said about NaNiwa being an ameteur prize pool hunter. Based on common sense, I'd still boycott the GSL if I actually watched it. btw naniwa didn't place first place you know
When the first place finisher is already in Code S, it is offered to second place, if second place already has it or declines, it's offered to third place and so on.
Hence why CoCa, MMA, MC and DRG earned their seeds despite not actually winning their respective tournaments.
Technically, HuK would have been the first foreigner to be eligible in Orlando 2011, but he was there already.
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On December 15 2011 08:19 Paladia wrote:Show nested quote +On December 15 2011 06:33 GOMTV wrote:It seems like a lot of people have been under the impression that NaNiWa has received a Code S seed for taking 2nd place at MLG Providence. The truth however is that NaNiWa has received the right to compete in the Blizzard Cup for his 2nd place achievement at MLG Providence. Gom, why are you making this up? 1. Why were the two seeds called "INTERNATIONAL SEED" and the other one "MLG PROVIDENCE CODE S SEED" on your official website (which you in stealth changed today)? 2. Why did your own twitter comment say that you revoked his Code S seed (which you also, deleted today)? 3. Why was it announced on your official partners website that Naniwa has .. earned a seat in Code S? 4. And why does it still say on your official website when you announced the partner program still (not had time to change that one yet, had you?) say that: At every 2011 Pro Circuit Live Competition after MLG Columbus, GSL placement will occur as follows:
Code S status will be awarded to the highest placing player, regardless of country of origin, who doesn't already have Code S status.What you are doing right now is much much worse than what Naniwa could ever do or any player has ever done in the history of Starcraft 2. You are falsely removing the prize of a tournament several months after the tournament has happened and trying to delete all evidence of it. This is worse than those tournaments who don't pay the prize money, as at least they acknowledge the fact that there is a prize. I really expected that your so called "honor" would be more than this. Removing one of the major prizes of a tournament, lying, deleting threads, in secret altering your own statements, I think all GomTV has built up was just thrown down the drain and I honestly wish that no player would ever have anything more to do with you. I don't see how you dare talk about "honor" or professionalism.
What?
This is the only announcement gom ever made official:
![[image loading]](http://img.gomtv.net/img/n_net/gsl_format.jpg) in terms of their format, this has always been how it looked, there never was a "PROVIDENCE SEED" put on there. Stop spreading propoganda about GOM ninja'ing their own stuff, they never needed to make a change to this file. I have it on my desktop to try to create a better format of it to explain it when they first announced this back in october or whatever. They haven't changed shit. I don't recall their twitter stating they "banned" him either, it was a mistranslation... jeezus christ.
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GOMTV is going to take a hit from this. Also there being so many reports on Nani getting code S after MLG and no one at GOM ever said anything until now? Dont think the community is going to buy that either.
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I think I'm speaking for most people when I say I was under the impression ever since Nani finished 2nd in the last MLG he has had a guaranteed spot in the upcoming GSL in code S, how can you change something that effects the tournament this much just by changing the formats? And without making any major announcements? Seems to me part of this decision was based on fact that Korean pride was hurt by Naniwa during MLG when Nani defeated MVP and Nestea and Korean fans have been longing for a revenge match between these three players, and when it was Nestea turn to redeem himself Naniwa made it impossible for him to do so by not taking the game seriously,and this set off a huge flame of hatred towards Naniwa as a result, also the imo biased decisions that were made towards Naniwa.
Does GSL not stand for "Global Starcraft League"? shouldn't all players be treated equally? I love Korea as a nation, great people, great culture, but one thing I think most people who understand the Korean culture and people can agree on is their feeling of elitism, and honestly believing the Koreans are better than every other race.
Damage has been done, I'll still watch GSL because I love starcraft, but I lost a lot of respect towards the Korean esport scene, especially choya, his tweet was uncalled for.
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On December 15 2011 08:18 ssi.bal-listic wrote:
I think people have to realize that the contract between GSL and MLG was for 2011 (afaik). I dont think there was anything about giving highest seed in MLG a code S spot in 2012. But that doesn't make sense logically, with how the exchange program is explained in the announcement thread that Waxangel posted.
It explicitly states for every MLG event in 2011 after Columbus, one code S spot would be awarded. MLG Providence occurred in 2011, and thus a Code S spot for Providence should have been awarded.
It sounds more like GOM thinks that since they came up with a new format for 2012, that it voids the current arrangement/doesn't carry over into the next GSL. But I think many people here are agreeing that the code S spot for providence still should still be awarded to satisfy the original ruleset of "all MLGs in 2011, post-Columbus".
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On December 15 2011 08:23 oBlade wrote:Show nested quote +On December 15 2011 08:19 Truthful wrote:On December 15 2011 07:34 Eppa! wrote:On December 15 2011 07:28 MiXyass wrote:
Anybody that says KESPA would've handled this situation better has no idea what they are talking about
KESPA was not only strict about what happened on their own tournaments but they were strict on what happened outside of tournaments so that the players can display the best games possible on television
If this happened under KESPA naniwa would be 100% banned forever in any korean tournament
KESPA would not punish someone for not breaking a rule. KESPA was hard on players but not close to as subjective as GomTV. Its like Singapore vs Pakistan. actually KeSPA would have banned nani for good. no need for statements afterwards. professional etiquette which includes implicit rules of sportsmanship and competition are a fucking given. KeSPA would not ban someone for probe rushing. Ask Nal_Ra. It's none of their business what strategy a player uses.
What Naniwa did is not a probe rush. His intention is to lose, not to win.
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On December 15 2011 08:24 Taiki wrote:
Ok, so GOM already announced some time ago that the format of GSL was going to be changed and there would be 2 foreign invites to Code S(unless I'm totally wrong) called sponsor invites or something, maybe each season.
MLGs exchange program only lasts out 2011.
Now isn't it obvious that due to the format change that the 2012 seeds would have to be worked out differently from 2011 since the GSL seasons now are much longer? Is it just something I'm not seeing?
They "announced" that new change after this whole event.
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People were definitely overreacting in the other thread making it sound like Naniwa was banned from the GSL for life and they werent going to watch GSL anymore(cmon its the GSL :p)
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On December 15 2011 08:19 Paladia wrote:Show nested quote +On December 15 2011 06:33 GOMTV wrote:It seems like a lot of people have been under the impression that NaNiWa has received a Code S seed for taking 2nd place at MLG Providence. The truth however is that NaNiWa has received the right to compete in the Blizzard Cup for his 2nd place achievement at MLG Providence. Gom, why are you making this up? 1. Why were the two seeds called "INTERNATIONAL SEED" and the other one "MLG PROVIDENCE CODE S SEED" on your official website (which you in stealth changed today)? 2. Why did your own twitter comment say that you revoked his Code S seed (which you also, deleted today)? 3. Why was it announced on your official partners website that Naniwa has .. earned a seat in Code S? 4. And why does it still say on your official website when you announced the partner program still (not had time to change that one yet, had you?) say that: At every 2011 Pro Circuit Live Competition after MLG Columbus, GSL placement will occur as follows:
Code S status will be awarded to the highest placing player, regardless of country of origin, who doesn't already have Code S status.What you are doing right now is much much worse than what Naniwa could ever do or any player has ever done in the history of Starcraft 2. You are falsely removing the prize of a tournament several months after the tournament has happened and trying to delete all evidence of it. This is worse than those tournaments who don't pay the prize money, as at least they acknowledge the fact that there is a prize. I really expected that your so called "honor" would be more than this. Removing one of the major prizes of a tournament, lying, deleting threads, in secret altering your own statements, I think all GomTV has built up was just thrown down the drain and I honestly wish that no player would ever have anything more to do with you. I don't see how you dare talk about "honor" or professionalism.
Precisely. They claim that instead of the Code S invite he earned at MLG Providence by placing second, they instead invite him to the Blizzard Cup! Which is a Bo1 based tournament that is "meant to celebrate the year of 2011 e-sports with their best players." which subsequently =/= Code fucking S. How this was decided behind the scenes is without a doubt fraudulent behaviour, not only to Naniwa but also the MLG/GSL exchange program. GOMTV is undermining a public contract.
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On December 15 2011 08:24 Taiki wrote:
Ok, so GOM already announced some time ago that the format of GSL was going to be changed and there would be 2 foreign invites to Code S(unless I'm totally wrong) called sponsor invites or something, maybe each season.
MLGs exchange program only lasts out 2011.
Now isn't it obvious that due to the format change that the 2012 seeds would have to be worked out differently from 2011 since the GSL seasons now are much longer? Is it just something I'm not seeing?
If it's so obvious, surely they should've say.... told MLG that they were going back on the deal so MLG could not put 4 koreans in their pool, made a statement, done something rather than afterwards saying "lololo we are changing the system, surely you must've known about it, code s actually means blizzard cup!".
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EPT
