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Please discuss IdrA and Sen in Code S January in this thread. |
On December 14 2011 19:23 nam nam wrote:Show nested quote +On December 14 2011 19:21 Ysellian wrote:On December 14 2011 19:20 Serpico wrote:On December 14 2011 19:19 Grettin wrote:
"During a match, a player shall not offend the opponent or audience with abusive behaviours." - Wolf @ Twitter I dont see probe rushes to be "abusive." He didn't even bother to micro his probes. I don't think abusive is the right word for that.
Probably right on that, but even microing his probes would have saved Naniwa trouble.
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Well it's clear one of the spots was Naniwa, right or wrong, but...who is the other that's dropping out?
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On December 14 2011 19:25 Goldfish wrote:Show nested quote +On December 14 2011 19:15 Angelbelow wrote:On December 14 2011 19:12 Goldfish wrote:On December 14 2011 19:08 Angelbelow wrote:On December 14 2011 19:05 Jibba wrote:- GomTV can deny your participation if you are found unfit to be a gamer.
That is the most ridiculous rule ever. It might sound that way to us gamers, but its in just about every sport. Many examples can be found where athletes do something detrimental enough to be suspended or fined (basically some form of punishment) from their respective leagues. Except this case wasn't all that "detrimental". When people compare this to other sports or other games remember that this game had nothing at stake. No points, no money, nothing. It's playing playing a Bo7 where the opponent has already won 4 matches (why play the last 3 games when the opponent already won)? I'm not saying what Naniwa did was right but this is no where as bad as people are making it out to be IMO. He should get a warning or something else rather than an outright ban and his Code S spot taken away. I though it was detrimental because it lacked professionalism and respect but I agree that the punishment is too harsh. And you want to take about tournament formatting - Naniwa was the one who accepted the tournament invite, he shouldnt revolt in the middle of it. If hes going to accept and invitational to a prestigious tournament like the Blizzard Cup, he should try to finish gracefully. I agree but not that it was "detrimental" as people are making it out to be. I do agree that GOM has the right and what Naniwa did was not sportsmanlike. What I meant to say that his view is reasonable considering both players were 0-3 (the match had no real meaning) but yet people are comparing this to something worse (for example match fixing in BW). The difference between this and other examples is that it doesn't change the outcome of the tournament and it was only one "show match game". Again I just think the punishment was too harsh especially without warning or an "explicit" rule stating it (being unfit for a gamer is vague; they should give examples for it and detail penalties for not following it).
Agreed 100% on the punishment. But I think its arguably detrimental depending on who you ask. If you asked me, I would say that its disrespectful and inappropriate (which to a degree, is detrimental IMO). I honestly thought the punishment would have been a verbal slap on the wrist by GomTV lol. But they went overboard on punishing coca so I guess theyre atleast consistent -_-
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On December 14 2011 19:25 Goldfish wrote:Show nested quote +On December 14 2011 19:15 Angelbelow wrote:On December 14 2011 19:12 Goldfish wrote:On December 14 2011 19:08 Angelbelow wrote:On December 14 2011 19:05 Jibba wrote:- GomTV can deny your participation if you are found unfit to be a gamer.
That is the most ridiculous rule ever. It might sound that way to us gamers, but its in just about every sport. Many examples can be found where athletes do something detrimental enough to be suspended or fined (basically some form of punishment) from their respective leagues. Except this case wasn't all that "detrimental". When people compare this to other sports or other games remember that this game had nothing at stake. No points, no money, nothing. It's playing playing a Bo7 where the opponent has already won 4 matches (why play the last 3 games when the opponent already won)? I'm not saying what Naniwa did was right but this is no where as bad as people are making it out to be IMO. He should get a warning or something else rather than an outright ban and his Code S spot taken away. I though it was detrimental because it lacked professionalism and respect but I agree that the punishment is too harsh. And you want to take about tournament formatting - Naniwa was the one who accepted the tournament invite, he shouldnt revolt in the middle of it. If hes going to accept and invitational to a prestigious tournament like the Blizzard Cup, he should try to finish gracefully. I agree but not that it was "detrimental" as people are making it out to be. I do agree that GOM has the right and what Naniwa did was not sportsmanlike. What I meant to say that his view is reasonable considering both players were 0-3 (the match had no real meaning) but yet people are comparing this to something worse (for example match fixing in BW). The difference between this and other examples is that it doesn't change the outcome of the tournament and it was only one "show match game". Again I just think the punishment was too harsh especially without warning or an "explicit" rule stating it (being unfit for a gamer is vague; they should give examples for it and detail penalties for not following it).
What possible penalties do they have?
- Ban a player for the remainder of the tournament (not possible he was out)
- Ban a player from their next tournament (done)
... what?
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wow great news for idra. But i feel Naniwa's punishment is way to harsh. And I think it was only cuz he flamed nestea
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On December 14 2011 19:23 zestzorb wrote:Show nested quote +On December 14 2011 19:15 Ace.Xile wrote:On December 14 2011 19:11 zestzorb wrote:On December 14 2011 19:07 Ace.Xile wrote:On December 14 2011 19:03 zestzorb wrote:On December 14 2011 19:02 Hopelessnoob wrote:On December 14 2011 18:54 HOTSLocusT wrote:On December 14 2011 18:33 Hopelessnoob wrote:
Gom giving out free code S without a competition
players like Hero/Puma/sase have to qualify while sen which has 0 acheivements at MLG or GSL gets in code S without a reason.
A small case can be made for Idra as he did well in MLG
And Naniwa which qualified and just due to a probe rush has lost his GSL spot... In the future no cannon rush/4gate/6pool can be done as it is inappropriate and has too low chance of winning?? WTF GOM...
Koreans take their SC as a very serious sport/entertainment. Nani pretty much spat in their face. We still view it differently cause its not as serious a sport to us yet. Different culters \(-.-)/ Lets say a scenario whereby in the old GOM format whereby there could be a match for 1st and 2nd seeds for the group. If you win you play MVP if you lose you play me (a scrub). Then you 7 pool against Nestea because you feel you can never win unless you get an advantage. You wtill lose because Nestea is a god and then GSL tells you hey you threw that match, you are disqualified) is that deserved? This could happen because GOM shows they can ban anyone. In many competitions such as in WCG (according to SOTG), there were people throwing games to choose their opponents and they are not eliminated. NaNi threw the game and there was NO gain for him but he was banned. Your rebuttal may be that it is not in the rules but in the GSL rules, HERE throwing matches are also not in the rules. Hence i feel that banning NaNi is a very bad choice Eligibility ... - GomTV can deny your participation if you are found unfit to be a gamer. The rule is pretty clear-cut to me Yes Gom can do w.e. they want, that's not the argument. The bigger question is why does naniwa get banned and his spot taken away for not trying his hardest in a game that didn't matter, when people like byun, coca, choya, who either cheat or match fix, are only dealt with by slaps on the wrist (gstl ban) or team action and not Gom action. Gom could have banned all 3 of them from GSL just because, but they didn't and for some reason Naniwa for an arguably much lesser offense. I agree with you that Coca, Byun, and Choya should have been banned as well. But their misconduct happened outside GOM tournaments. Maybe that's why GOM didn't do anything about them. Their misconduct happened outside of GOM that had implications in the GSL further reaching than Nanis "offense" ever possibly could have. GOM pretty much reserves the right to ban someone for whatever they want, period. Even if you go out and say well Nani clearly didn't care who won in his game with Nestea, he used some shitty strat, he still didn't match fix or cheat, and those who did didn't get banned from GSL. I find it hard to understand their logic other than the fact that apparently not trying your hardest in a 100% pointless match, is worse than cheating or match fixing. I think their logic is that Nani directly screwed their tournament, others didn't. Not about the severity.
Their tournament setting was what screwed their tournament, if they're banking their tournament greatness on a chance meeting in an entirely pointless game, they need to revisit their business model.
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Remember that time Idra just left the game without even trying anything the minute Jinro started building a bunker outside his expansion in the GSL ro8? Hell, he didn't even try to a-move his workers.
Edit: Wait, rewatched it, he did kinda a-moved his workers and 2 lings, but then left. And it was his ramp, my bad.
I think he should get banned for that if we're going to ban for shit like this.
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On December 14 2011 19:26 Blardy wrote:Show nested quote +On December 14 2011 19:22 Grettin wrote:On December 14 2011 19:20 Serpico wrote:On December 14 2011 19:19 Grettin wrote:
"During a match, a player shall not offend the opponent or audience with abusive behaviours." - Wolf @ Twitter I dont see probe rushes to be "abusive." Please elaborate. Because, using a tactic which will never work in GSL, is offensive towards the player and the audience. Your opponent might have practiced hard as hell for this match and/or audience turned to see the game. When you use a tactic like "probe rush" is just like destroying your own nexus with them or quitting instantly. That is how i see it. If that's the case then I see <10 pools and 4 gates as offensive cuz i turned in hoping for a good match.
Agreed. In fact, the probe rush was in a way more amusing than yet another 4-gate simply due to the "WTF?" factor...
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United Kingdom14464 Posts
GOM, I've always supported you, but this (+ the Nani thing) seems ridiculous. You've kicked out one player who hasn't technically broken any rules, and you are bringing in 2 players seemingly exclusively to attract viewers. That's not how a tournament should work, the spirit of the competition is that there are no invites, you have to earn your place.
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On December 14 2011 19:26 Blardy wrote:Show nested quote +On December 14 2011 19:22 Grettin wrote:On December 14 2011 19:20 Serpico wrote:On December 14 2011 19:19 Grettin wrote:
"During a match, a player shall not offend the opponent or audience with abusive behaviours." - Wolf @ Twitter I dont see probe rushes to be "abusive." Please elaborate. Because, using a tactic which will never work in GSL, is offensive towards the player and the audience. Your opponent might have practiced hard as hell for this match and/or audience turned to see the game. When you use a tactic like "probe rush" is just like destroying your own nexus with them or quitting instantly. That is how i see it. If that's the case then I see <10 pools and 4 gates as offensive cuz i turned in hoping for a good match.
That's not the point.
These strategies are about winning, while Naniwa wanted to loose as fast as possible (he didn't even micro his probes)
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On December 14 2011 19:26 BloodThirsty wrote:Show nested quote +On December 14 2011 19:05 Blardy wrote:On December 14 2011 18:56 Confuse wrote:
To all the people announcing you won't pay for GSL anymore: There are probably more viewers who were offended enough by what Nani did to say the same thing if he was still invited. It was probably a correct business decision. With that said, strict professionalism in BW (as ridiculous as it was) worked, I'm sure some discipline won't hurt the SC2 community. I just can't comprehend how someone could be offended by the Naniwa vs Nestea game. because you don't care enough about the sc2 esports growing potential is why you dont understand, if you did you would be offended. He needs to grow up and when invited to one of the biggest tournaments of the year. YOU PLAY YOUR HEART OUT NO MATTER WHAT. If hes not punished then he possibly could do it again in something to do with code s if he goes down 1-0 he just throws the match because he wants to go home and cry
There are numerous examples of people NOT playing their heart out no matter what in high profile tournemants. This includes Idra btw, who has just been invited for unclear reasons into code S.
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On December 14 2011 19:27 Angelbelow wrote:Show nested quote +On December 14 2011 19:25 Goldfish wrote:On December 14 2011 19:15 Angelbelow wrote:On December 14 2011 19:12 Goldfish wrote:On December 14 2011 19:08 Angelbelow wrote:On December 14 2011 19:05 Jibba wrote:- GomTV can deny your participation if you are found unfit to be a gamer.
That is the most ridiculous rule ever. It might sound that way to us gamers, but its in just about every sport. Many examples can be found where athletes do something detrimental enough to be suspended or fined (basically some form of punishment) from their respective leagues. Except this case wasn't all that "detrimental". When people compare this to other sports or other games remember that this game had nothing at stake. No points, no money, nothing. It's playing playing a Bo7 where the opponent has already won 4 matches (why play the last 3 games when the opponent already won)? I'm not saying what Naniwa did was right but this is no where as bad as people are making it out to be IMO. He should get a warning or something else rather than an outright ban and his Code S spot taken away. I though it was detrimental because it lacked professionalism and respect but I agree that the punishment is too harsh. And you want to take about tournament formatting - Naniwa was the one who accepted the tournament invite, he shouldnt revolt in the middle of it. If hes going to accept and invitational to a prestigious tournament like the Blizzard Cup, he should try to finish gracefully. I agree but not that it was "detrimental" as people are making it out to be. I do agree that GOM has the right and what Naniwa did was not sportsmanlike. What I meant to say that his view is reasonable considering both players were 0-3 (the match had no real meaning) but yet people are comparing this to something worse (for example match fixing in BW). The difference between this and other examples is that it doesn't change the outcome of the tournament and it was only one "show match game". Again I just think the punishment was too harsh especially without warning or an "explicit" rule stating it (being unfit for a gamer is vague; they should give examples for it and detail penalties for not following it). Agreed 100%. I honestly thought the punishment would have been a verbal slap on the wrist by GomTV lol. But they went overboard on punishing coca so I guess theyre atleast consistent -_-
GOM didn't punish Coca. SlayerS (his team) made him forfeit the Code S spot. It's possible that GOM would've done the same had they been given the opportunity, but there's no way to tell. And judging by the way they handled the Choya situation, it seems unlikely.
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On December 14 2011 19:26 Blardy wrote:Show nested quote +On December 14 2011 19:22 Grettin wrote:On December 14 2011 19:20 Serpico wrote:On December 14 2011 19:19 Grettin wrote:
"During a match, a player shall not offend the opponent or audience with abusive behaviours." - Wolf @ Twitter I dont see probe rushes to be "abusive." Please elaborate. Because, using a tactic which will never work in GSL, is offensive towards the player and the audience. Your opponent might have practiced hard as hell for this match and/or audience turned to see the game. When you use a tactic like "probe rush" is just like destroying your own nexus with them or quitting instantly. That is how i see it. If that's the case then I see <10 pools and 4 gates as offensive cuz i turned in hoping for a good match.
That is also true, but at least you put some EFFORT there. When you probe rush with one hand on your cheek and "microing" your units with the other hand, that is way more offensive than 4-10pooling or 4gating.
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On December 14 2011 19:26 Ace.Xile wrote:Show nested quote +On December 14 2011 19:23 Ghanburighan wrote:On December 14 2011 19:20 Serpico wrote:On December 14 2011 19:19 Grettin wrote:
"During a match, a player shall not offend the opponent or audience with abusive behaviours." - Wolf @ Twitter I dont see probe rushes to be "abusive." And I see you as a selfish egotist that will probably bring about armageddon single-handedly. That doesn't make it so. There was a huge backlash, both in Korea and the foreigner scene. Your single opinion doesn't negate that fact. I'm kind of curious, do people like you expect players to just start putting on shows, and instead of being actual professionals becoming purely entertainers. Common sense would say that there was really nothing to gain from the game with nestea, so people essentially are pissed because Naniwa didn't see the point as just trying to go out and act like the game mattered, at what point are people going to realize they're just treading the line before playing a game professionally to compete, and playing a game to just entertain people despite it's lack of significance.
People like me.. I wonder what that means.
I've written about this before here, but it's simple. We don't accept the Nestea v Naniwa games as meaningless. There was a storyline in play, it determined the loser of the group, it contributed to ELO/GSL points that determines future tournament invites and there were tons of people tuning in to watch that scheduled match. They should have played their hearts out, rather than saved strategies to get more money.
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On December 14 2011 19:28 tribulator wrote:
Remember that time Idra just left the game without even trying anything the minute Jinro started building a bunker outside his expansion in the GSL ro8? Hell, he didn't even try to a-move his workers.
I think he should get banned for that if we're going to ban for shit like this.
GOM just set a bad precedent and there's a slippery slope to all of this, are they going to allow people to /dance and embarrass other players before a game is even over?
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On December 14 2011 19:26 Ace.Xile wrote:Show nested quote +On December 14 2011 19:23 Ghanburighan wrote:On December 14 2011 19:20 Serpico wrote:On December 14 2011 19:19 Grettin wrote:
"During a match, a player shall not offend the opponent or audience with abusive behaviours." - Wolf @ Twitter I dont see probe rushes to be "abusive." And I see you as a selfish egotist that will probably bring about armageddon single-handedly. That doesn't make it so. There was a huge backlash, both in Korea and the foreigner scene. Your single opinion doesn't negate that fact. I'm kind of curious, do people like you expect players to just start putting on shows, and instead of being actual professionals becoming purely entertainers. Common sense would say that there was really nothing to gain from the game with nestea, so people essentially are pissed because Naniwa didn't see the point as just trying to go out and act like the game mattered, at what point are people going to realize they're just treading the line before playing a game professionally to compete, and playing a game to just entertain people despite it's lack of significance.
Nani is making a living because us people watch him.... I wanted to see a good game between two great players. You only find enjoyment is super important matches? I just wanted to see a good game.
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On December 14 2011 19:23 Seeker wrote:Show nested quote +On December 14 2011 19:21 Ysellian wrote:On December 14 2011 19:20 Serpico wrote:On December 14 2011 19:19 Grettin wrote:
"During a match, a player shall not offend the opponent or audience with abusive behaviours." - Wolf @ Twitter I dont see probe rushes to be "abusive." He didn't even bother to micro his probes. We need GOM's definition of "abusive" in order to fully understand this rule
I guess they want it to be pretty vague, so they can slam someone for doing something like the worker pull.
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On December 14 2011 19:29 Serpico wrote:Show nested quote +On December 14 2011 19:28 tribulator wrote:
Remember that time Idra just left the game without even trying anything the minute Jinro started building a bunker outside his expansion in the GSL ro8? Hell, he didn't even try to a-move his workers.
I think he should get banned for that if we're going to ban for shit like this. GOM just set a bad precedent and there's a slippery slope to all of this, are they going to allow people to /dance and embaress other players before a game is even over?
Difference between unprofessionalism and playful entertainment.
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On December 14 2011 19:29 Rannasha wrote:Show nested quote +On December 14 2011 19:27 Angelbelow wrote:On December 14 2011 19:25 Goldfish wrote:On December 14 2011 19:15 Angelbelow wrote:On December 14 2011 19:12 Goldfish wrote:On December 14 2011 19:08 Angelbelow wrote:On December 14 2011 19:05 Jibba wrote:- GomTV can deny your participation if you are found unfit to be a gamer.
That is the most ridiculous rule ever. It might sound that way to us gamers, but its in just about every sport. Many examples can be found where athletes do something detrimental enough to be suspended or fined (basically some form of punishment) from their respective leagues. Except this case wasn't all that "detrimental". When people compare this to other sports or other games remember that this game had nothing at stake. No points, no money, nothing. It's playing playing a Bo7 where the opponent has already won 4 matches (why play the last 3 games when the opponent already won)? I'm not saying what Naniwa did was right but this is no where as bad as people are making it out to be IMO. He should get a warning or something else rather than an outright ban and his Code S spot taken away. I though it was detrimental because it lacked professionalism and respect but I agree that the punishment is too harsh. And you want to take about tournament formatting - Naniwa was the one who accepted the tournament invite, he shouldnt revolt in the middle of it. If hes going to accept and invitational to a prestigious tournament like the Blizzard Cup, he should try to finish gracefully. I agree but not that it was "detrimental" as people are making it out to be. I do agree that GOM has the right and what Naniwa did was not sportsmanlike. What I meant to say that his view is reasonable considering both players were 0-3 (the match had no real meaning) but yet people are comparing this to something worse (for example match fixing in BW). The difference between this and other examples is that it doesn't change the outcome of the tournament and it was only one "show match game". Again I just think the punishment was too harsh especially without warning or an "explicit" rule stating it (being unfit for a gamer is vague; they should give examples for it and detail penalties for not following it). Agreed 100%. I honestly thought the punishment would have been a verbal slap on the wrist by GomTV lol. But they went overboard on punishing coca so I guess theyre atleast consistent -_- GOM didn't punish Coca. SlayerS (his team) made him forfeit the Code S spot. It's possible that GOM would've done the same had they been given the opportunity, but there's no way to tell. And judging by the way they handled the Choya situation, it seems unlikely.
Thanks for the clarification, what was the Choya situation? I dont know what happened with him.
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Either way, about Naniwa, I just think he is immature. He doesn't understand that even if you disagree about a rule, you should follow it unless you want to show blatant disrespect for those making said rule. And deal with the consequences.
Or as a writer I like once wrote in a book: "[they] don't understand that choosing not to give offense is also a choice" (when someone argues that they didn't mean to be offensive).
It's like ... sure ... it's fine ... but then deal with it.
He had to know, having lived in Korea for a while, that it would NOT be looked at as okay, but he didn't give a fuck, because he didn't agree with the rule.
To make a comparison: Idra don't like some rules, he will be vocal and direct about it ... but he will follow them. Because it's in his interest (making money) to do so. And he is professional about that.
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EPT
