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Please discuss IdrA and Sen in Code S January in this thread. |
On December 14 2011 19:15 Ace.Xile wrote:Show nested quote +On December 14 2011 19:11 zestzorb wrote:On December 14 2011 19:07 Ace.Xile wrote:On December 14 2011 19:03 zestzorb wrote:On December 14 2011 19:02 Hopelessnoob wrote:On December 14 2011 18:54 HOTSLocusT wrote:On December 14 2011 18:33 Hopelessnoob wrote:
Gom giving out free code S without a competition
players like Hero/Puma/sase have to qualify while sen which has 0 acheivements at MLG or GSL gets in code S without a reason.
A small case can be made for Idra as he did well in MLG
And Naniwa which qualified and just due to a probe rush has lost his GSL spot... In the future no cannon rush/4gate/6pool can be done as it is inappropriate and has too low chance of winning?? WTF GOM...
Koreans take their SC as a very serious sport/entertainment. Nani pretty much spat in their face. We still view it differently cause its not as serious a sport to us yet. Different culters \(-.-)/ Lets say a scenario whereby in the old GOM format whereby there could be a match for 1st and 2nd seeds for the group. If you win you play MVP if you lose you play me (a scrub). Then you 7 pool against Nestea because you feel you can never win unless you get an advantage. You wtill lose because Nestea is a god and then GSL tells you hey you threw that match, you are disqualified) is that deserved? This could happen because GOM shows they can ban anyone. In many competitions such as in WCG (according to SOTG), there were people throwing games to choose their opponents and they are not eliminated. NaNi threw the game and there was NO gain for him but he was banned. Your rebuttal may be that it is not in the rules but in the GSL rules, HERE throwing matches are also not in the rules. Hence i feel that banning NaNi is a very bad choice Eligibility ... - GomTV can deny your participation if you are found unfit to be a gamer. The rule is pretty clear-cut to me Yes Gom can do w.e. they want, that's not the argument. The bigger question is why does naniwa get banned and his spot taken away for not trying his hardest in a game that didn't matter, when people like byun, coca, choya, who either cheat or match fix, are only dealt with by slaps on the wrist (gstl ban) or team action and not Gom action. Gom could have banned all 3 of them from GSL just because, but they didn't and for some reason Naniwa for an arguably much lesser offense. I agree with you that Coca, Byun, and Choya should have been banned as well. But their misconduct happened outside GOM tournaments. Maybe that's why GOM didn't do anything about them. Their misconduct happened outside of GOM that had implications in the GSL further reaching than Nanis "offense" ever possibly could have. GOM pretty much reserves the right to ban someone for whatever they want, period. Even if you go out and say well Nani clearly didn't care who won in his game with Nestea, he used some shitty strat, he still didn't match fix or cheat, and those who did didn't get banned from GSL. I find it hard to understand their logic other than the fact that apparently not trying your hardest in a 100% pointless match, is worse than cheating or match fixing.
I think their logic is that Nani directly screwed their tournament, others didn't. Not about the severity.
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On December 14 2011 19:21 Ysellian wrote:Show nested quote +On December 14 2011 19:20 Serpico wrote:On December 14 2011 19:19 Grettin wrote:
"During a match, a player shall not offend the opponent or audience with abusive behaviours." - Wolf @ Twitter I dont see probe rushes to be "abusive." He didn't even bother to micro his probes.
I don't think abusive is the right word for that.
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On December 14 2011 19:21 VTPerfect wrote:
#1 rule of viewership; You may judge a Starcraft 2 Tournament unfit to receive your Esport dollars. Naniwa earns Code S by placing 2nd in one of the most competitive Sc2 tournaments all year and its taken away by not trying in a worthless game? Sorry but either viewers teach GOM a lesson that bullshit is bad or they are going to do this again and again and we may find our beloved sport more like WWE and much less like Chess.
Bullshit is bad. They agree. They aren't putting up with it either.
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On December 14 2011 19:20 poorcloud wrote:Show nested quote +On December 14 2011 19:16 Hopelessnoob wrote:On December 14 2011 19:15 Snowbear wrote:On December 14 2011 19:05 Jibba wrote:- GomTV can deny your participation if you are found unfit to be a gamer.
That is the most ridiculous rule ever. You are a mod from the teamliquid forums. You can deny the participation of someone in the forums if you found them to be unfit to be a forum poster. No... TL has rules and they ban them if they break it. Not whether they are fit or unfit to post... The rules are ambiguous. LiKE THIS GOM rule. Some people get banned for balance whining, some people don't. Just look at all the protoss whine in those LR threads a few months ago.
aer you comparing getting banned in a FORUM, to not being allowed to do the thing take is your job?
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On December 14 2011 19:21 aebriol wrote:Show nested quote +On December 14 2011 19:20 Serpico wrote:On December 14 2011 19:19 Grettin wrote:
"During a match, a player shall not offend the opponent or audience with abusive behaviours." - Wolf @ Twitter I dont see probe rushes to be "abusive." A fair amount of people would disagree ... or understand that it would be seen that way, especially in Korea with that culture.
I doubt "korean culture" means changing the definition of a word. Abusive does not mean throwing games.
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On December 14 2011 19:20 poorcloud wrote:Show nested quote +On December 14 2011 19:16 Hopelessnoob wrote:On December 14 2011 19:15 Snowbear wrote:On December 14 2011 19:05 Jibba wrote:- GomTV can deny your participation if you are found unfit to be a gamer.
That is the most ridiculous rule ever. You are a mod from the teamliquid forums. You can deny the participation of someone in the forums if you found them to be unfit to be a forum poster. No... TL has rules and they ban them if they break it. Not whether they are fit or unfit to post... The rules are ambiguous. LiKE THIS GOM rule. Some people get banned for balance whining, some people don't. Just look at all the protoss whine in those LR threads a few months ago.
all rules are ambiguous... But some are very vague. such as what is an "unfit gamer"?
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On December 14 2011 19:19 Talin wrote:Show nested quote +On December 14 2011 19:12 Angelbelow wrote:On December 14 2011 19:08 Talin wrote:On December 14 2011 19:04 Angelbelow wrote:On December 14 2011 19:03 Talin wrote:On December 14 2011 19:00 Gezz wrote:
A suspension was definitely the right choice. People are saying IdrA forfeits meaningless games regularly but I can never see him doing it for a planned BROADCASTED grudge match. Seeing as its broadcasted it matters to all the viewers and makes GOM look bad. 100% standing behind GOM on this one. Naniwa is under no obligation to make GOM look good, nor is it his business to care about how they will look. If GOM is going to pick players based on which players they like the most and which players make them look good and bring them more money then that is a show, not a legitimate competition. GOMTV has rules (albeit ambiguous) to argue that naniwa does have to make them look good. Recalling some of your posts in the past, its surprises me that you side with naniwa THIS heavily. GOM would still look good if they didn't make beginners' mistakes in designing their tournament format. Which posts specifically? As far as I remember, I always support the players over organizations (teams/tournaments). Whether I like their behaviour and decisions or not is another issue entirely, and I don't like Naniwa's attitude either in other circumstances, but that's not the point here. You have a lot of post so I cant recall them specifically, but my point is that I generally get a positive impression of your posts. Meaning that they are well thought out and not over/unreasonably biased. Its okay to support players over tournaments but there should be a limit. I like Naniwa a lot too and I honestly think him getting banned from code s is too harsh. However he fucked up with his behavior so I was expecting some kind of punishment. A lot of fans have argued that what he did was okay given the format or his emotion, but I havent seen any professional player, caster, management condone his behavior.. and thats something we should take into consideration here. They find it unacceptable for a big reason. My opinion is really similar to Tyler's for this specific issue, so yeah in a way there are people involved with the scene that think the same thing. Even Idra tweeted the same thing (according to this thread, somebody mentioned it). Naniwa came off as an ass far too many times, but this really wasn't an issue of behaviour - he didn't act maliciously towards anyone, he didn't directly offend anyone, it wasn't like when he typed "this tournament is a joke" at MLG. He just played out a game in a way that he found the most natural given his mindset and psychological state as a player in that moment. The most important thing in Starcraft is to respect the competitor's integrity, which is why I heavily support Naniwa in this specific incident - because that's really what the incident was all about - a competitor having to "fake" playing a meaningless game just for show (fans/viewers/sponsors) when he's not psychologically capable of playing a game. The moment the entertainment / business side takes priority because that's what generates money is the moment competitive Starcraft loses any meaning whatsoever.
Agreed on Tyler, i thought his opinion was the best response to the situation. I don't feel like he should have been suspended from Jan. But Tyler also said that he wouldn't condone what Naniwa did.
But I actually think what Naniwa did goes against a competitors integrity. In this department, I thought incontrol had solid points as well. This is not the best way for naniwa to dispute the tournament format and what he did was detrimental to his reputation.
Business entertainment side is taking over if you want SC2 to be sustainable. Whether you like it or not, progamers do what they do BECAUSE a business and entertainment aspect exists. Your point of view is a very honorable and idealistic approach to sc2, which makes me even more curious why youre supporting naniwas disrespectful behavior.
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i dont understand how sen got invited. at least idra was in gsl before and left voluntarily and had a code s spot and he is in up and down.
while sen?
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On December 14 2011 19:15 Angelbelow wrote:Show nested quote +On December 14 2011 19:12 Goldfish wrote:On December 14 2011 19:08 Angelbelow wrote:On December 14 2011 19:05 Jibba wrote:- GomTV can deny your participation if you are found unfit to be a gamer.
That is the most ridiculous rule ever. It might sound that way to us gamers, but its in just about every sport. Many examples can be found where athletes do something detrimental enough to be suspended or fined (basically some form of punishment) from their respective leagues. Except this case wasn't all that "detrimental". When people compare this to other sports or other games remember that this game had nothing at stake. No points, no money, nothing. It's playing playing a Bo7 where the opponent has already won 4 matches (why play the last 3 games when the opponent already won)? I'm not saying what Naniwa did was right but this is no where as bad as people are making it out to be IMO. He should get a warning or something else rather than an outright ban and his Code S spot taken away. I though it was detrimental because it lacked professionalism and respect but I agree that the punishment is too harsh. And you want to take about tournament formatting - Naniwa was the one who accepted the tournament invite, he shouldnt revolt in the middle of it. If hes going to accept and invitational to a prestigious tournament like the Blizzard Cup, he should try to finish gracefully.
I agree but not that it was "detrimental" as people are making it out to be.
I do agree that GOM has the right and what Naniwa did was not sportsmanlike. What I meant to say that his view is reasonable considering both players were 0-3 (the match had no real meaning) but yet people are comparing this to something worse (for example match fixing in BW). The difference between this and other examples is that it doesn't change the outcome of the tournament and it was only one "show match game".
Again I just think the punishment was too harsh especially without warning or an "explicit" rule stating it (being unfit for a gamer is vague; they should give examples for it and detail penalties for not following it).
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i saw this coming. since they are good at making small thing to a drama to bigger drama. they should add Best Drama award in Blizzcup since most of the drama came from them..
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On December 14 2011 19:21 Blardy wrote:
This is like getting suspended from school for something you did outside of school -.-
Happened plenty at my school. There was even a rule, a pupil will always uphold the image of the school. Smoking on the street would get you suspended, for example. Perfectly standard, actually. At least in schools with a high reputation.
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On December 14 2011 19:22 poorcloud wrote:
So why focus so much on giving foreigner seeds when the foreigners are not better? It should be based on merit imo. At least Idra can claim that he used to be code S and made some pretty good runs there. What does Sen have? Many foreign tourney placements where he looked a class lower compared to players like hero/puma. Both of whom are not code S.
I don't think Hero and Puma classify as 'foreigners' but if they do, I would agree that they could easily have been invited.
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Omg that must be joke. If this is really true im not gonna support gom any longer. guess ill watch the free stream in the future....
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You know, as much as I hate the Naniwa decision, Sen is a player I can support getting into the GSL. He always seems like he's a Korean away from winning everything, and while I would have much preferred he get a Code A seed first, I won't pitch a fit over him getting in. Sen fighting!
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On December 14 2011 19:23 Ghanburighan wrote:Show nested quote +On December 14 2011 19:20 Serpico wrote:On December 14 2011 19:19 Grettin wrote:
"During a match, a player shall not offend the opponent or audience with abusive behaviours." - Wolf @ Twitter I dont see probe rushes to be "abusive." And I see you as a selfish egotist that will probably bring about armageddon single-handedly. That doesn't make it so. There was a huge backlash, both in Korea and the foreigner scene. Your single opinion doesn't negate that fact.
I'm kind of curious, do people like you expect players to just start putting on shows, and instead of being actual professionals becoming purely entertainers. Common sense would say that there was really nothing to gain from the game with nestea, so people essentially are pissed because Naniwa didn't see the point as just trying to go out and act like the game mattered, at what point are people going to realize they're just treading the line before playing a game professionally to compete, and playing a game to just entertain people despite it's lack of significance.
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On December 14 2011 19:22 Grettin wrote:Show nested quote +On December 14 2011 19:20 Serpico wrote:On December 14 2011 19:19 Grettin wrote:
"During a match, a player shall not offend the opponent or audience with abusive behaviours." - Wolf @ Twitter I dont see probe rushes to be "abusive." Please elaborate. Because, using a tactic which will never work in GSL, is offensive towards the player and the audience. Your opponent might have practiced hard as hell for this match and/or audience turned to see the game. When you use a tactic like "probe rush" is just like destroying your own nexus with them or quitting instantly. That is how i see it.
If that's the case then I see <10 pools and 4 gates as offensive cuz i turned in hoping for a good match.
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On December 14 2011 19:05 Blardy wrote:Show nested quote +On December 14 2011 18:56 Confuse wrote:
To all the people announcing you won't pay for GSL anymore: There are probably more viewers who were offended enough by what Nani did to say the same thing if he was still invited. It was probably a correct business decision. With that said, strict professionalism in BW (as ridiculous as it was) worked, I'm sure some discipline won't hurt the SC2 community. I just can't comprehend how someone could be offended by the Naniwa vs Nestea game.
because you don't care enough about the sc2 esports growing potential is why you dont understand, if you did you would be offended. He needs to grow up and when invited to one of the biggest tournaments of the year. YOU PLAY YOUR HEART OUT NO MATTER WHAT. If hes not punished then he possibly could do it again in something to do with code s if he goes down 1-0 he just throws the match because he wants to go home and cry
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On December 14 2011 19:21 Jibba wrote:Show nested quote +On December 14 2011 19:19 dtz wrote:On December 14 2011 19:15 Jibba wrote:On December 14 2011 19:07 dtz wrote:On December 14 2011 19:05 Jibba wrote:- GomTV can deny your participation if you are found unfit to be a gamer.
That is the most ridiculous rule ever. Hm care to explain why? I think this rule was intentionally put there to prevent Saviour , Luxury , and Co from joining GSL. Don't you agree that these people who has lost all sense of sportmanship should not be allowed to join GSL even if it is not under KESPA? Not saying what Naniwa did is anything close to the matchfixers. But the rule by itself is appropriate imo. Naniwa just happen to catch the lower spectrum of the rule probably. It's not worded to explicitly ban those people. It's worded to ban anyone they feel like banning. It's like the difference between "Your driver's license will be suspended, if you are found driving under the influence of alcohol" vs. "Your driver's license will be suspended, if an officer finds you unfit to drive." Discretionary laws should be avoided for this reason. I think that is because it will be so hard to list all the bannable offenses that constitute the intended consequences. It of course assumes competency and fairness from the organizer/authority side. That's what every sport has, though. The rule books for all the major leagues is quite extensive.
And still after all those extensive rules, there are still the catch-all phrases.
The organizer reserve the right to implement the rules in the "spirit of the game" - fairly ambiguous wouldn't you say.
The player might be charged for bringing the game into disrepute - really ambigiuous
I'm sure there are many more examples in many sport. Point being, even with all the extensive can/can't do list, the organizers still want to have the final say in everything because they believe that it is impossible to cover all situations with certainty. They also put themselves in an objective/fair position to analyse the players.
GOM might need to make the rules more extensive. But I do think by no means that the statement by itself is wrong.
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On December 14 2011 19:23 aderum wrote:Show nested quote +On December 14 2011 19:20 poorcloud wrote:On December 14 2011 19:16 Hopelessnoob wrote:On December 14 2011 19:15 Snowbear wrote:On December 14 2011 19:05 Jibba wrote:- GomTV can deny your participation if you are found unfit to be a gamer.
That is the most ridiculous rule ever. You are a mod from the teamliquid forums. You can deny the participation of someone in the forums if you found them to be unfit to be a forum poster. No... TL has rules and they ban them if they break it. Not whether they are fit or unfit to post... The rules are ambiguous. LiKE THIS GOM rule. Some people get banned for balance whining, some people don't. Just look at all the protoss whine in those LR threads a few months ago. aer you comparing getting banned in a FORUM, to not being allowed to do the thing take is your job?
I'm not comparing. Just clarifying something other posters said.
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EPT
