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Please discuss IdrA and Sen in Code S January in this thread. |
On December 14 2011 19:12 Angelbelow wrote:Show nested quote +On December 14 2011 19:08 Talin wrote:On December 14 2011 19:04 Angelbelow wrote:On December 14 2011 19:03 Talin wrote:On December 14 2011 19:00 Gezz wrote:
A suspension was definitely the right choice. People are saying IdrA forfeits meaningless games regularly but I can never see him doing it for a planned BROADCASTED grudge match. Seeing as its broadcasted it matters to all the viewers and makes GOM look bad. 100% standing behind GOM on this one. Naniwa is under no obligation to make GOM look good, nor is it his business to care about how they will look. If GOM is going to pick players based on which players they like the most and which players make them look good and bring them more money then that is a show, not a legitimate competition. GOMTV has rules (albeit ambiguous) to argue that naniwa does have to make them look good. Recalling some of your posts in the past, its surprises me that you side with naniwa THIS heavily. GOM would still look good if they didn't make beginners' mistakes in designing their tournament format. Which posts specifically? As far as I remember, I always support the players over organizations (teams/tournaments). Whether I like their behaviour and decisions or not is another issue entirely, and I don't like Naniwa's attitude either in other circumstances, but that's not the point here. You have a lot of post so I cant recall them specifically, but my point is that I generally get a positive impression of your posts. Meaning that they are well thought out and not over/unreasonably biased. Its okay to support players over tournaments but there should be a limit. I like Naniwa a lot too and I honestly think him getting banned from code s is too harsh. However he fucked up with his behavior so I was expecting some kind of punishment. A lot of fans have argued that what he did was okay given the format or his emotion, but I havent seen any professional player, caster, management condone his behavior.. and thats something we should take into consideration here. They find it unacceptable for a big reason.
My opinion is really similar to Tyler's for this specific issue, so yeah in a way there are people involved with the scene that think the same thing. Even Idra tweeted the same thing (according to this thread, somebody mentioned it).
Naniwa came off as an ass far too many times, but this really wasn't an issue of behaviour - he didn't act maliciously towards anyone, he didn't directly offend anyone, it wasn't like when he typed "this tournament is a joke" at MLG. He just played out a game in a way that he found the most natural given his mindset and psychological state as a player in that moment. After losing 3 extremely close games against top opponents like that, you could even argue that playing it out like that WAS 100% (or near) of his ability at the time.
The most important thing in Starcraft is to respect the competitor's integrity, which is why I heavily support Naniwa in this specific incident - because that's really what the incident was all about - a competitor having to "fake" playing a meaningless game just for show (fans/viewers/sponsors) when he's not psychologically capable of playing a game. The moment the entertainment / business side takes priority because that's what generates money is the moment competitive Starcraft loses any meaning whatsoever. Players are not entertainers - to a player like Naniwa (and he's not the only one, but most others just cope with it), I think being treated like one and expected to be one is borderline insulting and triggers a lot of his negative actions.
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On December 14 2011 19:16 Hopelessnoob wrote:Show nested quote +On December 14 2011 19:15 Snowbear wrote:On December 14 2011 19:05 Jibba wrote:- GomTV can deny your participation if you are found unfit to be a gamer.
That is the most ridiculous rule ever. You are a mod from the teamliquid forums. You can deny the participation of someone in the forums if you found them to be unfit to be a forum poster. No... TL has rules and they ban them if they break it. Not whether they are fit or unfit to post...
The rules are ambiguous. LiKE THIS GOM rule. Some people get banned for balance whining, some people don't. Just look at all the protoss whine in those LR threads a few months ago.
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On December 14 2011 19:19 Grettin wrote:
"During a match, a player shall not offend the opponent or audience with abusive behaviours." - Wolf @ Twitter
I dont see probe rushes to be "abusive."
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I think there are a few separate issues here ...
1) Sen is, imho, the best foreigner not currently in GSL that would want that spot. I think, maybe, you could argue that a few others are on his level, but I don't think you could argue that there are a lot (any) that are consistently better. Stephano has said that he doesn't want it, so he is out. Huk is there. Idra is getting a spot. Who else would get a foreign seed?
2) Idra was one of the best players in the GSL when he left. And he left on good terms, while he was still in Code S. He is also one of the best foreigners out there. You could easily argue that he is not 'the' best, but you'd be hard pressed to argue that there are many better foreigners out there. Giving him the second foreigner invite spot - even though he has clearly stated he is not there to stay, makes sense on many levels, and I can't see many reasons why he shouldn't be given that spot.
3) Naniwa was banned for 1 season for behaving childishly and unprofessional in a tournament by GOMTV. They didn't ban him for something he did in someone elses tournament. They banned him from doing something stupid in their own tournament. He has previously been banned and given penalty points, which most players avoid, in other tournaments as well. It makes sense that when you do something wrong, you are punished for it. Too strict of a penalty? Why? He clearly hasn't learned from any of his previous mistakes / controversies, so maybe he will learn from this.
But I don't see a clear correlation between 1 & 2 and 3 ... they seem to me to be separate issues. One being who to invite as 2 foreigner seeds, and one being punishing someone who breaks your rules.
It's GOMTV's right and choice how to deal with childish and stupid behavior by professional gamers participating in their tournaments, and they have chosen correctly in my view ... but I don't see how that influence who they chose to invite as foreigner seeds much.
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United States22883 Posts
On December 14 2011 19:19 dtz wrote:Show nested quote +On December 14 2011 19:15 Jibba wrote:On December 14 2011 19:07 dtz wrote:On December 14 2011 19:05 Jibba wrote:- GomTV can deny your participation if you are found unfit to be a gamer.
That is the most ridiculous rule ever. Hm care to explain why? I think this rule was intentionally put there to prevent Saviour , Luxury , and Co from joining GSL. Don't you agree that these people who has lost all sense of sportmanship should not be allowed to join GSL even if it is not under KESPA? Not saying what Naniwa did is anything close to the matchfixers. But the rule by itself is appropriate imo. Naniwa just happen to catch the lower spectrum of the rule probably. It's not worded to explicitly ban those people. It's worded to ban anyone they feel like banning. It's like the difference between "Your driver's license will be suspended, if you are found driving under the influence of alcohol" vs. "Your driver's license will be suspended, if an officer finds you unfit to drive." Discretionary laws should be avoided for this reason. I think that is because it will be so hard to list all the bannable offenses that constitute the intended consequences. It of course assumes competency and fairness from the organizer/authority side. That's what every sport has, though. The rule books for all the major leagues is quite extensive.
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#1 rule of viewership; You may judge a Starcraft 2 Tournament unfit to receive your Esport dollars. Naniwa earns Code S by placing 2nd in one of the most competitive Sc2 tournaments all year and its taken away by not trying in a worthless game? Sorry but either viewers teach GOM a lesson that bullshit is bad or they are going to do this again and again and we may find our beloved sport more like WWE and much less like Chess.
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On December 14 2011 19:20 Serpico wrote:Show nested quote +On December 14 2011 19:19 Grettin wrote:
"During a match, a player shall not offend the opponent or audience with abusive behaviours." - Wolf @ Twitter I dont see probe rushes to be "abusive."
A fair amount of people would disagree ... or understand that it would be seen that way, especially in Korea with that culture.
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This is like getting suspended from school for something you did outside of school -.-
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On December 14 2011 19:19 Fionn wrote:Show nested quote +On December 14 2011 19:17 Whiteman103 wrote:On December 14 2011 19:15 Psi-Kick wrote:
I'm personally not a fan of all the seeds Gom gives out, I'd much rather see people who earn it in those spots. Will have to see how they perform. well idra NEVER really did leave code S he just left korea while he was still Code S He did leave Code S. He gave away his spot in the GSL to go back to America due to the NASL was about to hit.
that what i said.....He never lost his way out of code S just moved to US
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On December 14 2011 19:03 Ace.Xile wrote:Show nested quote +On December 14 2011 19:01 Keeler wrote:On December 14 2011 18:58 dtz wrote:I think technically, GOM has the right to ban Naniwa. From the original GSL thread http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=141496
Eligibility
- You must be at least 12 years old.
- You must have your own Battle.net account.
- You must fill out the registration form on the website.
- You must be able to participate in the offline preliminaries.
- GomTV can deny your participation if you are found unfit to be a gamer.
So i guess GOM has deemed someone who do not give their best in all games to be unfit to be a gamer. This is also the rule that prevent Saviour and co from joining GSL. And non-meaningful games exists all the time in many competitions. Last weeks of NBA , NFL, EPL, MLB regular seasons? Between teams who cannot go to playoffs, who can't qualify for European Leagues but too high to get relegated? You don't see the 12th and 13th team in the EPL who met during the last week stage a mass afternoon nap session in the field don't you? They still play for the fans. Of course they can save/rest their players and try less hard. But they still show up and present some semblance of a game to their fans and to respect the competition. Boom, game over. How is that boom game over, naniwa offered some semblance of the game, just a short one. He could have just as easily 4 gated and noone would be saying shit, which is stupid.
It's not stupid. It's like the difference between a proffesional sports team sending out a reserve team with weaker players to a meaningless game so the fans have something to watch and them just getting on the field and sitting there.
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On December 14 2011 19:20 Serpico wrote:Show nested quote +On December 14 2011 19:19 Grettin wrote:
"During a match, a player shall not offend the opponent or audience with abusive behaviours." - Wolf @ Twitter I dont see probe rushes to be "abusive."
He didn't even bother to micro his probes.
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On December 14 2011 19:01 Redox wrote:
It is just sad how much more important image is than actual gameplay. Image even gives respectively looses a player a code S spot. A sad day for competetive gaming imo.
I agree! Today esports feels more like WWE than an actual sport
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This is complete and utter bullshit. He forfeited his code S, not paused it. This is unfair.
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On December 14 2011 19:20 Serpico wrote:Show nested quote +On December 14 2011 19:19 Grettin wrote:
"During a match, a player shall not offend the opponent or audience with abusive behaviours." - Wolf @ Twitter I dont see probe rushes to be "abusive."
Please elaborate. Because, using a tactic which will never work in GSL, is offensive towards the player and the audience.
Your opponent might have practiced hard as hell for this match and/or audience turned to see the game. When you use a tactic like "probe rush" is just like destroying your own nexus with them or quitting instantly.
That is how i see it.
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On December 14 2011 19:20 aebriol wrote:
I think there are a few separate issues here ...
1) Sen is, imho, the best foreigner not currently in GSL that would want that spot. I think, maybe, you could argue that a few others are on his level, but I don't think you could argue that there are a lot (any) that are consistently better. Stephano has said that he doesn't want it, so he is out. Huk is there. Idra is getting a spot. Who else would get a foreign seed?
2) Idra was one of the best players in the GSL when he left. And he left on good terms, while he was still in Code S. He is also one of the best foreigners out there. You could easily argue that he is not 'the' best, but you'd be hard pressed to argue that there are many better foreigners out there. Giving him the second foreigner invite spot - even though he has clearly stated he is not there to stay, makes sense on many levels, and I can't see many reasons why he shouldn't be given that spot.
3) Naniwa was banned for 1 season for behaving childishly and unprofessional in a tournament by GOMTV. They didn't ban him for something he did in someone elses tournament. They banned him from doing something stupid in their own tournament. He has previously been banned and given penalty points, which most players avoid, in other tournaments as well. It makes sense that when you do something wrong, you are punished for it. Too strict of a penalty? Why? He clearly hasn't learned from any of his previous mistakes / controversies, so maybe he will learn from this.
But I don't see a clear correlation between 1 & 2 and 3 ... they seem to me to be separate issues. One being who to invite as 2 foreigner seeds, and one being punishing someone who breaks your rules.
It's GOMTV's right and choice how to deal with childish and stupid behavior by professional gamers participating in their tournaments, and they have chosen correctly in my view ... but I don't see how that influence who they chose to invite as foreigner seeds much.
So why focus so much on giving foreigner seeds when the foreigners are not better? It should be based on merit imo. At least Idra can claim that he used to be code S and made some pretty good runs there. What does Sen have? Many foreign tourney placements where he looked a class lower compared to players like hero/puma. Both of whom are not code S.
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Seeker
Where dat snitch at?37025 Posts
On December 14 2011 19:21 Ysellian wrote:Show nested quote +On December 14 2011 19:20 Serpico wrote:On December 14 2011 19:19 Grettin wrote:
"During a match, a player shall not offend the opponent or audience with abusive behaviours." - Wolf @ Twitter I dont see probe rushes to be "abusive." He didn't even bother to micro his probes.
We need GOM's definition of "abusive" in order to fully understand this rule
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United States23455 Posts
On December 14 2011 19:21 Whiteman103 wrote:Show nested quote +On December 14 2011 19:19 Fionn wrote:On December 14 2011 19:17 Whiteman103 wrote:On December 14 2011 19:15 Psi-Kick wrote:
I'm personally not a fan of all the seeds Gom gives out, I'd much rather see people who earn it in those spots. Will have to see how they perform. well idra NEVER really did leave code S he just left korea while he was still Code S He did leave Code S. He gave away his spot in the GSL to go back to America due to the NASL was about to hit. that what i said.....He never lost his way out of code S just moved to US
That's still losing your spot. He "lost" 0-2 in his Code S group and fell out of Code S/A due to not being there. If Idra is invited back, then GOM should also ask Rain/LiveForever if they want to come back and get a free Code S spot, too.
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On December 14 2011 19:20 poorcloud wrote:Show nested quote +On December 14 2011 19:16 Hopelessnoob wrote:On December 14 2011 19:15 Snowbear wrote:On December 14 2011 19:05 Jibba wrote:- GomTV can deny your participation if you are found unfit to be a gamer.
That is the most ridiculous rule ever. You are a mod from the teamliquid forums. You can deny the participation of someone in the forums if you found them to be unfit to be a forum poster. No... TL has rules and they ban them if they break it. Not whether they are fit or unfit to post... The rules are ambiguous. LiKE THIS GOM rule. Some people get banned for balance whining, some people don't. Just look at all the protoss whine in those LR threads a few months ago.
Unambiguous rules are often times bad. Look at the tax codes because it is so specific there are so many loopholes you can get through, when you have so many clearly defined rules it's easy to find something you can do that's not explicitly stated that you can't do
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On December 14 2011 19:20 Serpico wrote:Show nested quote +On December 14 2011 19:19 Grettin wrote:
"During a match, a player shall not offend the opponent or audience with abusive behaviours." - Wolf @ Twitter I dont see probe rushes to be "abusive."
And I see you as a selfish egotist that will probably bring about armageddon single-handedly. That doesn't make it so. There was a huge backlash, both in Korea and the foreigner scene. Your single opinion doesn't negate that fact.
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EPT
