EPTTerran as a race has very little glaring weaknesses compared to the other 2 at this point. I think it's just that most diamond and below terrans won easily with MMM every game so they have a hard time adjusting in low masters.
[D] Fundamental problems with Terran - Page 3
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RavenLoud
Canada1100 Posts
Terran as a race has very little glaring weaknesses compared to the other 2 at this point. I think it's just that most diamond and below terrans won easily with MMM every game so they have a hard time adjusting in low masters. | ||
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Ksi
357 Posts
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SolidMoose
United States1240 Posts
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Darpa
Canada4413 Posts
On November 30 2011 14:06 Plansix wrote: I see little to no evidence in the OP post that makes any solid argument that terran is under powered in any way. Terran has enjoy the highest win ratio all of the races since launch and solid stats and evidence has been provided on a monthly basis to back this up. The OP only provides a limit sample of tournaments that serve to make his point, while omiting any referance to a tournament where a terran won. He also completely omits the GSL because, in his argument, "terran is harder except at the highest level of play". This appears to be the new argument for terrans who feel that their race is being over nerfed. Since terrans still dominate the GSL, there is no way to state that terrans are doing poorly. The new argument is that terran is strong if you have a high skill level, but at the lower leagues, zerg and protoss are simply strong due to "easier to play at that skill level". This creates a nearly unwinable argument for anyone attempting to argue balance. The fundamentals of the argument are based on so many abstract, unfounded theories and claims that no solid argument can be made to counter them. No specific proof or reasoning is provided that terran is more difficult or easier at a specific skill level. Only a bunch of random tournament results where terrans did not win. Even when terrans did post solid results, those are to be ignored because they are Korean and are playing at the highest level. So the argument is: Terran did not win these tournaments. They also did not post solid results in the top four. Except in the tournaments where they did post solid results in the top four. But those results are invalid because the players were Korean. The results of these finding: Terran is to difficult at my skill level, which is not the highest level. This is a problem with terran and I feel it should be corrected. I have now added to the discussion in a long winded fashion by saying that the OP evidence is BS and his argument lacks any substance to prove his point. I dont really want to argue with you because you seem to start throwing around insults when people disagree with you, but terrans didnt dominate the last GSL. The OP never even mentioned balance changes, he talked about design differences between the races. Why you get so heated is beyond me. | ||
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ZorBa.G
Australia279 Posts
Terran has the highest skill cap due to micro capabilities. In order to reach a level of micro that is effective whilst being on par with your macro, you need to put in at least 30 games p/day (Code S Terrans). If you cannot play such a large amount of games and put in that much practice, Protoss and Zerg is much more rewarding in the short term. So from now on when I see those threads that state "Which race should I choose?" I will ask such questions first; - How much time can you put into the game? 30 games p/day? Give Terran a go, they will be the most rewarding in the next 3 years when your micro is perfect. Also keep in mind when spending that 200 - 300 apm on micro, you still need to be on par with your macro. 25 games p/day? You like massing shit and setting up ambushes and prefer macro games? Play Zerg, still a very challenging yet rewarding race to play. However, you will reap the benifits of your hard work within about 2 - 3 years. This largely depends on how your game sense is as well. Very much a reactionary race. Can only play 1 - 5 games per day and only interested in getting to masters within the next couple of months? Play Protoss. I'm actually considering switching to Protoss since I can't spend 24/7 trying to perfect my micro with Terran. I'm not even joking here. Yes, at the upmost highest levels of SC2, Terran is a force to be reckoned with. But I don't see why Blizzard needs to set limitations on those who aren't pros. If anything, blizzard needs to stop nerfing Terran and look at the god damn units Protoss has. DO SOMETHING WITH THE MICRO MECHANICS OF PROTOSS. Make them weaker and make it so they require micro to be effective as well. The more Blizzard nerfs Terran, the more they put this race out of reach for those players in the lower leagues. As for Zerg, I don't really see much wrong with their race. I'm not going to elaborate on it, but I respect the skill involved to playing that race. | ||
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AcrosstheSky
United States237 Posts
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ZorBa.G
Australia279 Posts
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Beastyqt
Serbia516 Posts
Examples are marines vs zerglings vs zealots or stalkers vs marauders vs roaches. Marines and stalkers become much powerful with very good micro, while other 4 unit types dont need to be micro'd very good on low level to be successful. Another example is mutas - void rays - banshees, while void rays are "OP" on low levels, mutas and cloakless banshees probably "suck" because they require much more micro to use their full potential. Like someone mentioned already, terran as a race is made micro oriented while other 2 races are played different (not saying they dont require micro on top level but on low level its much harder for terran players to win their games) which results in terran % of players globally decreasing each season while zerg race players % has been increasing (read this on TL). All this nerfing to terran race, even tho it was needed on the GSL code S level, it is killing the lower leagues and players who are playing the game casually would rather switch races than spend more time on the game itself, because...they play game for fun and fun = winning most of the time. Not sure if Polt said it 1-2 GSL's ago that once patch hits "all the bad terrans will drop out from GSL because of this" + Show Spoiler + and now he's out of GSL My personal opinion on the whole balance thing - yes koreans were dominating GSL but if the race was overpowered terrans would dominate foreigner tournaments as well - which wasnt the case. Blizzard is balancing the game based on GSL obviously and even if slight nerf was needed I think blizzard overdid it and that we will see zergs and protoss dominate much more very soon. And for those who will probably be "go play other race if u think yours is shit" - you got it wrong, terran is very good race, but reaching top level or even low level play is much more time consuming than other 2 races if you want to win, which is reason why people complain on terran race atm. | ||
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Nothingtosay
United States875 Posts
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Nenyim
France110 Posts
Might be even more true with terran because as it was said units need more baby-sitting, however they can harass pretty esay and defending vs harass at lower level can be pretty damn hard too. | ||
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ZorBa.G
Australia279 Posts
On November 30 2011 14:20 Nothingtosay wrote: So lets say we accept your OP is true. You're saying that having to micro is a design flaw? Being forced to micro when your opponent doesn't need to is a design flaw. | ||
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Resistentialism
Canada688 Posts
What they are going to suggest, instead is the contrapositive: give the other races more room for showcasing player skill. | ||
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Plansix
United States60190 Posts
On November 30 2011 14:13 Darpa wrote: I dont really want to argue with you because you seem to start throwing around insults when people disagree with you, but terrans didnt dominate the last GSL. The OP never even mentioned balance changes, he talked about design differences between the races. Why you get so heated is beyond me. There is not a single insult in the post above and I am not heated at all. I will say that the argument of the OP lacks any valid point and simply states that he would like the game to be easier for him. Below is a sample of the the argument provided by the OP: Because this makes Terran units theoretically 'stronger' than the other races, Blizzard has implemented many nerfs to the Terran race to compensate for this micro potential. The way Blizzard appears to view the race is that, in head on battles, Terrans will always lose the fights to storms/colossus/fungals/banelings, etc. However, with good micro, Terran is able to win fights that it theoretically should lose based on raw battle power. The reason that Terran were able to dominate so well for so long in the GSL is that players at this level were able to exploit the micro potential of the Terran units and use them much more effectively than other races. In response, Blizzard has attempted to balance the Terran race based on top-level Korean players, and nerfed reapers, hellions, ghosts etc. accordingly. The problem with this response is that at lower levels, where players are not at the same level as the Korean scene and do not have the same micro/multitask potential, Terran is fundamentally going to be a weaker race. Many may dispute this fact, but the results even of top Foreign players show that this statement is true. Is there anything in this statement that we did not know or does not hold true for all three races? Good mirco can allow a player to win a fight that he would normally lose. That players who are able to micro well and exploit all the strengths of a specific unit will do better and win games. That the game is harder if you do not have these skills. None of the information above is ground breaking or anything that the community at large did not know. The argument of "I am not as good as a Pro Korean, so I cannot win with terran" hold little weight. | ||
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canikizu
4860 Posts
On November 30 2011 14:15 AcrosstheSky wrote: So basically your saying Terran requires you to play better than the other races.Somehow i think your crying imbalance despite your disclaimer. Whenever you think Starcraft 2 is imbalanced go play the race you think is easy and you'll see it has its limitations. No, what he meant is, the way Terran is designed, and the metagames for all the MU right now require Terran to go with a handful of strategies that requires to have better micro in order to win against the opponent. And yes, I just switched to Protoss after watching HerO's games at Dreamhack, I won 3 out of 5 games vs diamond/low master Terran despite only knowing 1 build which is 1 gate expand and having no previous experience playing toss other than the campaign. My friend also just switched to zerg and he used to be one of those who always says Terran is the strongest, but after he amoved his way to platium league, he said Terran is just a sad race. And yes, we are lower league, that's what this topic is about. | ||
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Techno
1900 Posts
On November 30 2011 14:06 Plansix wrote: I see little to no evidence in the OP post that makes any solid argument that terran is under powered in any way. Terran has enjoy the highest win ratio all of the races since launch and solid stats and evidence has been provided on a monthly basis to back this up. The OP only provides a limit sample of tournaments that serve to make his point, while omiting any referance to a tournament where a terran won. He also completely omits the GSL because, in his argument, "terran is harder except at the highest level of play". This appears to be the new argument for terrans who feel that their race is being over nerfed. Since terrans still dominate the GSL, there is no way to state that terrans are doing poorly. The new argument is that terran is strong if you have a high skill level, but at the lower leagues, zerg and protoss are simply strong due to "easier to play at that skill level". This creates a nearly unwinable argument for anyone attempting to argue balance. The fundamentals of the argument are based on so many abstract, unfounded theories and claims that no solid argument can be made to counter them. No specific proof or reasoning is provided that terran is more difficult or easier at a specific skill level. Only a bunch of random tournament results where terrans did not win. Even when terrans did post solid results, those are to be ignored because they are Korean and are playing at the highest level. So the argument is: Terran did not win these tournaments. They also did not post solid results in the top four. Except in the tournaments where they did post solid results in the top four. But those results are invalid because the players were Korean. The results of these finding: Terran is to difficult at my skill level, which is not the highest level. This is a problem with terran and I feel it should be corrected. I have now added to the discussion in a long winded fashion by saying that the OP evidence is BS and his argument lacks any substance to prove his point. Almost every single person in this thread, especially you, are taking some sort of knee-jerk TL;DR of the OPs post and then spewing out garbage at this straw troll they've imagined. EDIT: To everyone else, this man (OP) is right and if you disagree with him you are wrong. I will argue this* as far as I can if someone wants to PM me about it. *Terran's amatuer to Grandmaster learning curve is a much higher and longer road then it is for Protoss and Zerg. | ||
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BEARDiaguz
Australia2362 Posts
Korean Terrans can do it. Why can't they? You've also forgotten SelCT getting 2nd place in the ASUS stars ROG invitational. | ||
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sunman1g
United States334 Posts
On November 30 2011 13:16 Crisium wrote: I think many Zerg would claim that they need hella good Micro to beat a Terran or Protoss death ball. you gotta be joking right ? zerg is all about flanking and position, when they attack into a sieged line with rines, tanks and thors they literally A move and shift click mutas "hella good micro" good one. i agree with many things that the OP has stated. blizzard is digging an hole because to "balance" for 10 korean terrans the game is ruined for everyone who isn't a korean pro gamer with 500apm and the sickest multi tasking. the balance of TvX is already horrible at master, below master is a joke and in fact i am not surprised by the stats at blizzcon that showed how P was winning 60%+ of their games vs terran. i personally stopped playing several months ago. i used to be a mid/high master terran player but i got so pissed because of what they are doing with the balance that i eventually quit. the game became too much stress and no fun for me, and i feel lots of terran players in every division are in the same boat. the "terran racism" from the community does not help either. now i am just a (happy) watcher that does not play anymore. yeeeey. | ||
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zhurai
United States5660 Posts
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Plansix
United States60190 Posts
On November 30 2011 14:31 Techno wrote: Almost every single person in this thread, especially you, are taking some sort of knee-jerk TL;DR of the OPs post and then spewing out garbage at this straw troll they've imagined. I am sorry you feel that way. I truly feel that the OP post and his evidence are garbage. Every race has it's own issues and asking for yours to be made easier is silly. Starcraft 2 is hard and no one wants it to be any easier. | ||
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Twistacles
Canada1327 Posts
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