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DarkPlasmaBall
United States44300 Posts
On November 30 2011 13:58 ThePlayer33 wrote: whats the fundamental problem????????? that there isn't a good foreign terran? That there isn't a Terran in the top five of the foreign TLPD for this specific month. lol. Definitely thread-worthy. Thorzain, DeMuslim, Goody, Empire players, blah blah blah. And the vast majority of top Koreans >.> | ||
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Steel
Japan2283 Posts
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bustanut
United States76 Posts
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AxionSteel
United States7754 Posts
On November 30 2011 14:56 DemigodcelpH wrote: Code S Koreans are generally in the same tier of skill. Terran is just more rewarding for (extreme) amounts of skill, and less rewarding when not micro'd. I know, was being sarcastic. It's obvious that what the OP and Beastyqt say are pretty much on the money. It's laughable that people can just put it down to foreign terrans being bad, it just takes a hell of a lot of skill, micro and multitasking to get the most out of the terran race, more so than the other races. People can choose to ignore it or deny it, but that's fact. In the hands of the absolute best of the best Koreans, then it begins to shine. | ||
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Tishe
Singapore17 Posts
On November 30 2011 15:01 Steel wrote: I agree that at the mid masters terran is harder than other races but then again ANYTHING BUT GM protoss is easier than anything else while below masters zerg is essentially 25% WR ratio because you are learning to read your opponent [(which pros can barely do) (don't give me just ovie scout it doesn't work that way)] ...so I don't think the fact that an isolated group of terrans have a 'hard time' (I don't think you can claim that terran is impossibly hard to play at this level, but it is very difficult to play 100% standard; especially considering you might got to that point doing quite a few gimmicky builds) that there is a fundamental problem with terran. Just get over your wall like every other zerg had to. This. Every race has their own issues at different levels. | ||
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vileChAnCe
Canada525 Posts
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Lavi
Bangladesh793 Posts
Regardless I don't see Blizzard addressing any major balancing concerns until HOTS is released. And tbh i'm very excited about all of the new units - only thing I find disappointing is that the new 'retro goliath' has no recoil animation. :p edit: Accidentally typed out "koreans" instead of "terran" lol a testament of their mastery over the race. | ||
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Orracle
United States314 Posts
On November 30 2011 14:06 Plansix wrote: I see little to no evidence in the OP post that makes any solid argument that terran is under powered in any way. Terran has enjoy the highest win ratio all of the races since launch and solid stats and evidence has been provided on a monthly basis to back this up. The OP only provides a limit sample of tournaments that serve to make his point, while omiting any referance to a tournament where a terran won. He also completely omits the GSL because, in his argument, "terran is harder except at the highest level of play". This appears to be the new argument for terrans who feel that their race is being over nerfed. Since terrans still dominate the GSL, there is no way to state that terrans are doing poorly. The new argument is that terran is strong if you have a high skill level, but at the lower leagues, zerg and protoss are simply strong due to "easier to play at that skill level". This creates a nearly unwinable argument for anyone attempting to argue balance. The fundamentals of the argument are based on so many abstract, unfounded theories and claims that no solid argument can be made to counter them. No specific proof or reasoning is provided that terran is more difficult or easier at a specific skill level. Only a bunch of random tournament results where terrans did not win. Even when terrans did post solid results, those are to be ignored because they are Korean and are playing at the highest level. So the argument is: Terran did not win these tournaments. They also did not post solid results in the top four. Except in the tournaments where they did post solid results in the top four. But those results are invalid because the players were Korean. The results of these finding: Terran is to difficult at my skill level, which is not the highest level. This is a problem with terran and I feel it should be corrected. I have now added to the discussion in a long winded fashion by saying that the OP evidence is BS and his argument lacks any substance to prove his point. I'm not sure what you consider to be "dominate" the GSL. As a matter of fact, as far as 1v1s go, Nestea has more points than any other player. Are you talking about the vast amount of undeserving Terran players in the GSL brackets? Yes, but that isn't a balance issue, that is a GSL design issue. As a matter of fact, GSL recognized that, and they have now changed the structure. Across the board, every single race has multiple wins in the GSL, and I think we all know, Leenock will be taking this one. The thread starter is saying that at a top KR level, Terran is perfectly fine as the players can utilize their units to their full potential. Now you scale it down to lets say, GM NA level, and you can see 8 Terrans in the top 50. | ||
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Twistacles
Canada1327 Posts
On November 30 2011 15:05 Whomp wrote: Fundamental problem with terran? Mules on gold, bam solved this thread!!! lock it up boys I lol'd Thank you sir you figured it out | ||
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pikagrue
79 Posts
On November 30 2011 15:05 Whomp wrote: Fundamental problem with terran? Mules on gold, bam solved this thread!!! lock it up boys What if... we could MULE MULES o____O Use MULES to mine MULES to calldown more MULES | ||
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DemigodcelpH
1138 Posts
On November 30 2011 14:14 ZorBa.G wrote: OK, so to summarise everything up. Terran has the highest skill cap due to micro capabilities. In order to reach a level of micro that is effective whilst being on par with your macro, you need to put in at least 30 games p/day (Code S Terrans). If you cannot play such a large amount of games and put in that much practice, Protoss and Zerg is much more rewarding in the short term. So from now on when I see those threads that state "Which race should I choose?" I will ask such questions first; - How much time can you put into the game? 30 games p/day? Give Terran a go, they will be the most rewarding in the next 3 years when your micro is perfect. Also keep in mind when spending that 200 - 300 apm on micro, you still need to be on par with your macro. 25 games p/day? You like massing shit and setting up ambushes and prefer macro games? Play Zerg, still a very challenging yet rewarding race to play. However, you will reap the benifits of your hard work within about 2 - 3 years. This largely depends on how your game sense is as well. Very much a reactionary race. Can only play 1 - 5 games per day and only interested in getting to masters within the next couple of months? Play Protoss. I'm actually considering switching to Protoss since I can't spend 24/7 trying to perfect my micro with Terran. I'm not even joking here. Yes, at the upmost highest levels of SC2, Terran is a force to be reckoned with. But I don't see why Blizzard needs to set limitations on those who aren't pros. If anything, blizzard needs to stop nerfing Terran and look at the god damn units Protoss has. DO SOMETHING WITH THE MICRO MECHANICS OF PROTOSS. Make them weaker and make it so they require micro to be effective as well. The more Blizzard nerfs Terran, the more they put this race out of reach for those players in the lower leagues. As for Zerg, I don't really see much wrong with their race. I'm not going to elaborate on it, but I respect the skill involved to playing that race. Very well said. | ||
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theBizness
United States696 Posts
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Glockateer
United States254 Posts
Also, the "terran is harder to play" is a silly excuse. It was the most mechanically difficult race in BW, too. No one knows the strongest SC2 race but I've said zerg is for a long time, even when zerg tears were rampant. Look at them now... pretty scary potential. Larvae inject is insane. It is hard to say what the balance is and HotS will bring on a whole new playing field. | ||
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TheDraken
United States640 Posts
On November 30 2011 13:21 Crisium wrote: Although I tend to agree, it's based on how we verbally express the day. It is November 30th, 2011. 11/30/2011. Saying it is "The 30th of November, 2011" is really much more formal and makes us think of our former tea-sipping overlords in Britain. true that. besides, most days i don't even know what day it is. i just care about what month we're in. so it makes sense that we give the month its rightful place up front. in most situations involving the date it's really only the month that's important (finance, exams, major news). as far as the OP is concerned, i 100% agree with his analysis. for a long time i've had the impression that terran is just a better designed race. every unit really has a lot of thought put into it, and they are all dynamic for use in different situations. take something like the corruptor or the colossus and compare the amount of versatility one has compared to any terran unit and it's clear why really good players are usually terran. it's just more rewarding for extremely polished mechanics. players that are incredible that play toss or zerg just don't have the capability of putting their skills to use in any efficient manner. as a simple comparison, a good terran player is often defined by how well he splits marines or manages multiple drops. a good zerg player is often defined by how well he stays on top of injects. it's not because zerg players aren't capable of splitting, kiting, and multi drops, it's that the race doesn't reward that kind of play the same way terran does. everyone can see kiting and splitting zerglings is largely pointless. 6 zerglings just don't have the utility 6 marines do. so basically the only efficient way for good zerg players to really put apm and mechanics to optimal use is to be really good about larva... a mundane task you must do every 40 seconds. it's just not rewarding. | ||
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GTPGlitch
5061 Posts
On November 30 2011 15:27 theBizness wrote: Terran is the most forgiving and flexible race when it comes to unit composition and transitions... by design makes it more accessible for newer players. What? You have MMM(VG) in TvP, Marine Tank or mech in TvZ, and TvT is just... odd. But terran is the least forgiving for tech switches, unless you build a bunch of tech structures that will eat into your current production and take a lot of time to even get the first unit out. As opposed to building one structure and having all production available to build as that, or using chronoboost on research/production... On topic, i wholeheartedly agree with Beastyqt and Zorba.g wrote-Blizzard is punishing the larger audience because koreans have higher apm than all the rest. | ||
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RavenLoud
Canada1100 Posts
Seems irrelevant, zerg was "out of reach" to gold and below players for a long time, they didn't exactly die out. In SC1 terran was the most fragile and micro intensive race when the game came out, you'd find people playing terran just for the pride of playing a harder race. Even though toss was the best at 1a2a3a, they became quite the underdog at the highest levels. Terran was by far the most dominant race in the history of BW. It'll balance itself out. What's weird to me is people here whining about how the game takes effort to win, as if there's something fundamentally wrong with that... | ||
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freetgy
1720 Posts
"i suck so terran is up" may be you only just suck, and terran is ok? As far as i am concerned all lower level terrans do is pull out hard 1 base timing attacks, which are way easier to execute than to defend. (which contradicts everything your pull here as a fact) your whole argument is flawed, because every player tries to utilize the strengh of their races, which is perfectly ok. Just because your not good enough doesn't have jack shit to say about balance. Each race needs more micro capabilities, not less. User was temp banned for this post. | ||
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DemigodcelpH
1138 Posts
On November 30 2011 15:35 RavenLoud wrote: It'll balance itself out. What's weird to me is people here whining about how the game takes effort to win, as if there's something fundamentally wrong with that... Strawman. OP's crutch, and the general consensus, is that Terran is harder to balance because it's units are unusually micro intensive resulting in a higher skill cap. Fundamentally this can be okay, but as OP says it's hard to balance things when a race has a higher skill cap. Code S Terrans are a force to be reckoned with, as they have the ability to micro units at 200-300 apm and still macro with 95% efficiency at home (Code S Z/P also have this skill; those races don't benefit as much from it), but foreign Terrans are getting utterly destroyed across the board as OP's insightful statistics show — an after-effect of the discrepancies in required skill. | ||
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ixi.genocide
United States981 Posts
Edit: On November 30 2011 15:40 DemigodcelpH wrote: Strawman. OP's crutch, and the general consensus, is that Terran is harder to balance because it's units are unusually micro intensive resulting in a higher skill cap. Fundamentally this can be okay, but as OP says it's hard to balance things when a race has a higher skill cap. Code S Terrans are a force to be reckoned with, as they have the ability to micro units at 200-300 apm and still macro with 95% efficiency at home (Code S Z/P also have this skill; those races don't benefit as much from it), but foreign Terrans are getting utterly destroyed across the board as OP's insightful statistics show — an after-effect of the discrepancies in required skill. You should look at the top 32 of tournaments that are big and the op left out the asus tournament and the one that goody placed 2nd in. A lot of terrans were knocked out by other terrans and if you look at the games I can practically guarantee that the games that terrans lost were not because of balance but because of being outplayed in a best of 3 (which is ez to lose). | ||
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freetgy
1720 Posts
On November 30 2011 15:40 DemigodcelpH wrote: Strawman. OP's crutch, and the general consensus, is that Terran is harder to balance because it's units are unusually micro intensive resulting in a higher skill cap. Fundamentally this can be okay, but as OP says it's hard to balance things when a race has a higher skill cap. Code S Terrans are a force to be reckoned with, as they have the ability to micro units at 200-300 apm and still macro with 95% efficiency at home, but foreign Terrans are getting utterly destroyed across the board as OP's insightful statistics show — an after-effect of the discrepancies in required skill. Terran has to be and will always be more microintensive as long as they have superior DPS per Supply then the units of the other races. How else could this game be balanced. The races are different, play fundamentally different and that is what makes this game so interesting. What the OP implies is that Terran needs less DPS and more durable units so you don't need to micro as much. But is that really what terran players want? (they are getting some with the Battle Hellion) Less potential at the highest level of play for making the game easier at the lower leagues. | ||
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