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On December 08 2011 16:40 Tingles wrote:Show nested quote +On December 08 2011 16:14 ZorBa.G wrote:On December 08 2011 15:03 kofman wrote:On December 08 2011 14:56 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:On December 08 2011 14:54 kofman wrote:On December 08 2011 14:43 Skyda wrote:
Terran having a skill gap between players who have good micro and those who don't doesn't make the race fundamentally incorrect? How have you managed to come to this conclusion that because it requires one aspect of the game more than the other that it is broken? Its not really that Terran is broken in that Terrans have to micro, its broken that the other races don't have to micro. People still think that the other races don't have to micro? not compared to terran. and also terran's units scale a lot better with micro (and get a lot worse without) than the other races. thats a problem. I agree with this, if talking in regards to the T v Z mu. But in T v P, Terran needs to micro in order to "keep up" with toss. And so you fucking should when you have teir 1 units as the balls of your army. You have an entire half an army that never gets used because MMMGV is so fucking good, why would you need to go it? Mech is starting to get used a little bit. And mech basically has almost no micro ... it's all about the strategy and positioning. You have to micro more cause of the unit composition you choose, NOT because of your race. EDIT: Also don't want to get into a "HERP DERP MECH ISNT VIABLE THATS WHY HERP DERP" ... dont' give a shit. Just wanted to point it out.
This is just the problem, MMMVG is not "so fucking good" once you get into late game. By then, our only choice is to micro our asses off against a Toss who has literally headbutted his keyboard into the a move (Chargelot/Archon). While the Terran player has his whole fucking family at the keyboard looking after 1 control group each trying to micro. Yes, it gets crowded at my desk......
And I agree, we do have to micro because of our unit composition, I wish mech was viable and believe me...SOOOOO many other Terrans do as well. At least we would be able to a move headbutt our armies into each other!........
I'm getting sick of having my whole family in the room, believe me! Fix this Blizzard!
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I guess this is just the best place to ask:
Why do you never see terran compositions using non-seiged tanks, in big or small numbers?
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On December 08 2011 19:19 Angel_ wrote:
I guess this is just the best place to ask:
Why do you never see terran compositions using non-seiged tanks, in big or small numbers?
You do see them frequently in TvZ and sometimes in TvT and TvP to create an uncommon timing attack. Furthermore the unsieged DPS is higher, so you always see unsieged tanks vs Ultralisks or in a brute force bust in TvT.
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Even BW is not balanced in lowest of the low levels. Lurkers always kill marines regardless of whether the user knows what he's doing or not and sending DTs to opponent's main to kill drones and snipe tech is a lot easier than getting rid of the DT without taking damage. But when you move out of the "purple keyboard and mouse" level, stimming away marines while lurkers are burrowing happens more frequently than walking the entire army into a lurker meatgrinder.
Those fundamental problems OP is talking about exists in all games. Not just SC2. Answer lies in getting better.
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On December 08 2011 19:06 ZorBa.G wrote:Show nested quote +On December 08 2011 16:40 Tingles wrote:On December 08 2011 16:14 ZorBa.G wrote:On December 08 2011 15:03 kofman wrote:On December 08 2011 14:56 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:On December 08 2011 14:54 kofman wrote:On December 08 2011 14:43 Skyda wrote:
Terran having a skill gap between players who have good micro and those who don't doesn't make the race fundamentally incorrect? How have you managed to come to this conclusion that because it requires one aspect of the game more than the other that it is broken? Its not really that Terran is broken in that Terrans have to micro, its broken that the other races don't have to micro. People still think that the other races don't have to micro? not compared to terran. and also terran's units scale a lot better with micro (and get a lot worse without) than the other races. thats a problem. I agree with this, if talking in regards to the T v Z mu. But in T v P, Terran needs to micro in order to "keep up" with toss. And so you fucking should when you have teir 1 units as the balls of your army. You have an entire half an army that never gets used because MMMGV is so fucking good, why would you need to go it? Mech is starting to get used a little bit. And mech basically has almost no micro ... it's all about the strategy and positioning. You have to micro more cause of the unit composition you choose, NOT because of your race. EDIT: Also don't want to get into a "HERP DERP MECH ISNT VIABLE THATS WHY HERP DERP" ... dont' give a shit. Just wanted to point it out. This is just the problem, MMMVG is not "so fucking good" once you get into late game. By then, our only choice is to micro our asses off against a Toss who has literally headbutted his keyboard into the a move (Chargelot/Archon). While the Terran player has his whole fucking family at the keyboard looking after 1 control group each trying to micro. Yes, it gets crowded at my desk...... And I agree, we do have to micro because of our unit composition, I wish mech was viable and believe me...SOOOOO many other Terrans do as well. At least we would be able to a move headbutt our armies into each other!........ I'm getting sick of having my whole family in the room, believe me! Fix this Blizzard!
erm ... once agian back the ignorant argument of "terran has the most micro, toss has to do noting! it's so easy!"
And at no point did i say Terran micro is easy btw, it's hard. All 3 races are.
But you are living in a fantasy world if you think that it's like a surgeon preforming heart surgery for Terran to fight, and Toss is the lazy supervisor eating a bagel occasionally checking on the progress of the open wound.
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On December 08 2011 21:34 Tingles wrote:Show nested quote +On December 08 2011 19:06 ZorBa.G wrote:On December 08 2011 16:40 Tingles wrote:On December 08 2011 16:14 ZorBa.G wrote:On December 08 2011 15:03 kofman wrote:On December 08 2011 14:56 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:On December 08 2011 14:54 kofman wrote:On December 08 2011 14:43 Skyda wrote:
Terran having a skill gap between players who have good micro and those who don't doesn't make the race fundamentally incorrect? How have you managed to come to this conclusion that because it requires one aspect of the game more than the other that it is broken? Its not really that Terran is broken in that Terrans have to micro, its broken that the other races don't have to micro. People still think that the other races don't have to micro? not compared to terran. and also terran's units scale a lot better with micro (and get a lot worse without) than the other races. thats a problem. I agree with this, if talking in regards to the T v Z mu. But in T v P, Terran needs to micro in order to "keep up" with toss. And so you fucking should when you have teir 1 units as the balls of your army. You have an entire half an army that never gets used because MMMGV is so fucking good, why would you need to go it? Mech is starting to get used a little bit. And mech basically has almost no micro ... it's all about the strategy and positioning. You have to micro more cause of the unit composition you choose, NOT because of your race. EDIT: Also don't want to get into a "HERP DERP MECH ISNT VIABLE THATS WHY HERP DERP" ... dont' give a shit. Just wanted to point it out. This is just the problem, MMMVG is not "so fucking good" once you get into late game. By then, our only choice is to micro our asses off against a Toss who has literally headbutted his keyboard into the a move (Chargelot/Archon). While the Terran player has his whole fucking family at the keyboard looking after 1 control group each trying to micro. Yes, it gets crowded at my desk...... And I agree, we do have to micro because of our unit composition, I wish mech was viable and believe me...SOOOOO many other Terrans do as well. At least we would be able to a move headbutt our armies into each other!........ I'm getting sick of having my whole family in the room, believe me! Fix this Blizzard! erm ... once agian back the ignorant argument of "terran has the most micro, toss has to do noting! it's so easy!" And at no point did i say Terran micro is easy btw, it's hard. All 3 races are. But you are living in a fantasy world if you think that it's like a surgeon preforming heart surgery for Terran to fight, and Toss is the lazy supervisor eating a bagel occasionally checking on the progress of the open wound.
Can you please detail what is so hard about Protoss micro? Sorry if I'm ignorant, but it just seems piss easy... f shift spam click. t shift spam click. box all army a move click. lean back and drink a soda 
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The main problem I find with Terran is they have no late game composition vZ or vP.
Really all you get is a mid game push. Then when that's killed, you build the same units, over and over and over.
Marine Maruader Medi Viking Ghost, verse protoss.
Marine Tank Medi Ghost/Viking, verse zerg..... I guess you could maybe count thor, but to be honest, I don't find them effective, and defenitely not cost efficient.
At least in TvT you can tech up to Battlecruiser. Something to look forward to.
If it weren't for the intensity of the micro Terran has to do, I think it would be a pretty stale race to play. Sure everyone talks about the diversity of the Terran units, but really, we are forced into those 1 unit composition per matchup, again and again TvT seems to be the only real area for experimentation IMO.
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On December 09 2011 00:05 Qibla wrote:Show nested quote +On December 08 2011 21:34 Tingles wrote:On December 08 2011 19:06 ZorBa.G wrote:On December 08 2011 16:40 Tingles wrote:On December 08 2011 16:14 ZorBa.G wrote:On December 08 2011 15:03 kofman wrote:On December 08 2011 14:56 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:On December 08 2011 14:54 kofman wrote:On December 08 2011 14:43 Skyda wrote:
Terran having a skill gap between players who have good micro and those who don't doesn't make the race fundamentally incorrect? How have you managed to come to this conclusion that because it requires one aspect of the game more than the other that it is broken? Its not really that Terran is broken in that Terrans have to micro, its broken that the other races don't have to micro. People still think that the other races don't have to micro? not compared to terran. and also terran's units scale a lot better with micro (and get a lot worse without) than the other races. thats a problem. I agree with this, if talking in regards to the T v Z mu. But in T v P, Terran needs to micro in order to "keep up" with toss. And so you fucking should when you have teir 1 units as the balls of your army. You have an entire half an army that never gets used because MMMGV is so fucking good, why would you need to go it? Mech is starting to get used a little bit. And mech basically has almost no micro ... it's all about the strategy and positioning. You have to micro more cause of the unit composition you choose, NOT because of your race. EDIT: Also don't want to get into a "HERP DERP MECH ISNT VIABLE THATS WHY HERP DERP" ... dont' give a shit. Just wanted to point it out. This is just the problem, MMMVG is not "so fucking good" once you get into late game. By then, our only choice is to micro our asses off against a Toss who has literally headbutted his keyboard into the a move (Chargelot/Archon). While the Terran player has his whole fucking family at the keyboard looking after 1 control group each trying to micro. Yes, it gets crowded at my desk...... And I agree, we do have to micro because of our unit composition, I wish mech was viable and believe me...SOOOOO many other Terrans do as well. At least we would be able to a move headbutt our armies into each other!........ I'm getting sick of having my whole family in the room, believe me! Fix this Blizzard! erm ... once agian back the ignorant argument of "terran has the most micro, toss has to do noting! it's so easy!" And at no point did i say Terran micro is easy btw, it's hard. All 3 races are. But you are living in a fantasy world if you think that it's like a surgeon preforming heart surgery for Terran to fight, and Toss is the lazy supervisor eating a bagel occasionally checking on the progress of the open wound. Can you please detail what is so hard about Protoss micro? Sorry if I'm ignorant, but it just seems piss easy... f shift spam click. t shift spam click. box all army a move click. lean back and drink a soda
I like to imagine my Protoss opponents 1a'ing across the map, getting up and grabbing a snack from the kitchen, and coming back to collect their ladder points after a few minutes.
Really though, there's no other viable late-game strategy in TvP other than bio... But by that point, it's all down to the little micro.. Unless you just say screw it and stim and attack the protoss. It's all about spreading units and staying back til you snipe some colossi with Vikings or get some good EMP's on the High Templar.. And on the Protoss side you need to worry about being EMP'd and keeping your Colossi back behind your stalkers.
I think TvP would be so much more enjoyable if you could just attack your opponent and not get your army melted in a few seconds. Nope, instead it's all about ~30 supply of your army, until the important units are killed (for either side).
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On December 09 2011 00:10 Qibla wrote:
The main problem I find with Terran is they have no late game composition vZ or vP.
Really all you get is a mid game push. Then when that's killed, you build the same units, over and over and over.
Marine Maruader Medi Viking Ghost, verse protoss.
Marine Tank Medi Ghost/Viking, verse zerg..... I guess you could maybe count thor, but to be honest, I don't find them effective, and defenitely not cost efficient.
At least in TvT you can tech up to Battlecruiser. Something to look forward to.
If it weren't for the intensity of the micro Terran has to do, I think it would be a pretty stale race to play. Sure everyone talks about the diversity of the Terran units, but really, we are forced into those 1 unit composition per matchup, again and again TvT seems to be the only real area for experimentation IMO.
You may have a point about TvP, but in a typical lategame TvZ you end up using every single unit except for Starport+techlab units and hellions. How is that not diverse? Protoss almost never use Stargate units in a typical PvT, but you seem to think they have diverse unit comps in that matchup.
On a related note, this whole thread feels really strange to me. It's essentially Terrans saying "our race is well-designed, but we're bad, so please make it so that we can a-move to victory like Protoss". If anything, you should be asking for Protoss and Zerg to receive more opportunities to micro and show off their multitasking. Then the game would actually be hard for everyone, which is a great thing.
And if you want to win on the ladder so bad, just 1 base all-in all the way, they're still very good, and you can usually at least force the opponent to coinflip.
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JUST GOING TO SAY... I don't think anything matters if your not the top 1 percent of skill in this game. Otherwise practice more. If there are issues MVP and the other best terrans in the world are having, David Kim and friends i'm sure are looking into them, they HAVE to make this game good and totally balanced and playable for the next 10 years through multiple expansions and constant buff/nerfs. There is too big of a community in the world around this game. Anything we deal with on the ladder, we lost because we needed to play better, and we didn't. Only if 2 players are playing a perfect, or near perfect game can true imbalance really be seen. Otherwise, stop wasting time, practice more. Balance is not in our control to change, so let those in control of it figure it out. We are here to figure out the best way to expoit everything we can about the game engine and mechancis. That is the goal of gamers, to figure out how the game is suppose to be played, and then break all the rules and exploit it.
All races have differences in them thay may come out as imbalanced at anything lower than the top of the pro scene. Burrowed banelings can seem imbalanced if you never scan while pushing or have a raven. Zerg seems imbalanced when you can't properly keep them in control with harass and timing pushes. Protoss seems overpowered when you engadge 3/3 zealots/col with no corrupters or hive tech. Terran seems overpowered when 2 BFH get dropped into your base because you had shitty overlord spread and kills 40 workers. In short, everything can be imbalanced when we aren't reacting, or dealing with it perfectly. And until we are, there isn't a need to think anything other than I need to practice more.
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While stutter stepping may be time consuming, it is not hard to do. Alternating between emps and ghosts is certainly more challenging, but i would argue that it is no more challenging than doing everything a protoss needs to do in a regular battle PLUS dealing with HT in a warp prism.
This form of micromanagement may require a lot of attention for the short duration that you are doing it. This is compensated by the fact that every unit you would want to build can be done with hotkeys (no going to a pylon to warp in units, or going to a hatch to inject).
You can hotkey produce anything you want and rally them wherever you want right from the screen you are stutter stepping.
Mules stack, so that is just something you can deal with once you have my time at your disposal.
Contrary to what many of you beleive, protoss and zerg players are certainly not goign for a snack during the battle...
Both of those races are very difficult to deal with as well.
Zerg involves more macro along with their microing (screen jumping), unless they need to focus on their infestors.
Protoss has a little bit more screen jumping (Warp-in), but usually it is focus firing with the colosus, pulling back colosus that are being focused, targeting vikings, making sure zealots dont get too far ahead, and making sure proper FF and guardian sheild coverage.
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People in this thread need to stop getting defensive about the OP's assertions. He's clearly not saying anything about other races not having to micro or Terran being harder than the other races. A lot of people have just read the first post and immediately jumped into "MUST DEFEND MY RACE" mode. Of course every race requires high APM and precise micro to play optimally.
What's he's saying is that Terran benefits the most from outstanding micro. This is objectively true, considering that Terran can even counter unit counters with micro. After all, it's theoretically possible for marines to take no damage from banelings or storms, two things that are supposed to hard counter them. Meanwhile, every other races counters are unavoidable. Because of this the better professionals get at Terran micro the more cost effective and dominant they will will become. This is why Terran has been doing so well at the highest levels of play. However, if Blizzard balances around this, then most players below very high masters will be underpowered.
I agree with what many other people have said in this thread. Terran is designed how the other races should be, with units that benefit from greatly from superior micro. Unfortunately none of the HotS units seem like they are going to give Protoss and Zerg similar playstyles, so I think we're going to have this problem for the foreseeable future.
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On December 09 2011 01:23 Roxy wrote:
While stutter stepping may be time consuming, it is not hard to do. Alternating between emps and ghosts is certainly more challenging, but i would argue that it is no more challenging than doing everything a protoss needs to do in a regular battle PLUS dealing with HT in a warp prism.
This form of micromanagement may require a lot of attention for the short duration that you are doing it. This is compensated by the fact that every unit you would want to build can be done with hotkeys (no going to a pylon to warp in units, or going to a hatch to inject).
You can hotkey produce anything you want and rally them wherever you want right from the screen you are stutter stepping.
Mules stack, so that is just something you can deal with once you have my time at your disposal.
Contrary to what many of you beleive, protoss and zerg players are certainly not goign for a snack during the battle...
Both of those races are very difficult to deal with as well.
Zerg involves more macro along with their microing (screen jumping), unless they need to focus on their infestors.
Protoss has a little bit more screen jumping (Warp-in), but usually it is focus firing with the colosus, pulling back colosus that are being focused, targeting vikings, making sure zealots dont get too far ahead, and making sure proper FF and guardian sheild coverage.
Exactly... totally agree. I sense a lot of these discussions just comes down to a lot of confusion over not liking 1 races strength. Terran's is obviously holding certain positions very well, and your cost-effectivness is mainly determined by your micro. COOL! Just as zerg strength is speed and ability to reinforce. I don't know how many times as a Zerg player my banelings attacks that normally work on Terran, are destroyed when playing a Master level terran over lower league terrans. Focus firing banelings with tanks, marine spread = winning the fight most of the time. not doing these things, then sure, banelings roll into them and tear it apart. So that to me is you not exploiting the strength of your race properly. Just as if a protoss 1a's with no FF's or micro and gets mad when they lose. But if they have templar in warp prisms, dropping, storming, and picking up. Microing Col. and everything you mentioned, then the fight turns out differently... totally differently.
People hate Terran when they have good micro. People hate protoss when they are smart about how they engadge. People hate zerg when there on top of their injects/macro. Just because a race benefits from something a bit more than others doesn't mean it's imbalanced. Micro may benefit terran more in the cost-effective department more than the other races. Toss benefits from having units in a ball more than the other races. Does that make it imbalanced? Zerg benefits from having more hatches more than the other 2 benefit from having more CC/nexi, does that make it imbalanced? Truly, truly, any imbalances should be talked about only if you have specific examples of 2 players playing XvX perfectly. Otherwise nothing is imbalanced, it's only you not knowing fully how to deal with something..
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On December 09 2011 00:59 Xaga wrote:Show nested quote +On December 09 2011 00:05 Qibla wrote:On December 08 2011 21:34 Tingles wrote:On December 08 2011 19:06 ZorBa.G wrote:On December 08 2011 16:40 Tingles wrote:On December 08 2011 16:14 ZorBa.G wrote:On December 08 2011 15:03 kofman wrote:On December 08 2011 14:56 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:On December 08 2011 14:54 kofman wrote:On December 08 2011 14:43 Skyda wrote:
Terran having a skill gap between players who have good micro and those who don't doesn't make the race fundamentally incorrect? How have you managed to come to this conclusion that because it requires one aspect of the game more than the other that it is broken? Its not really that Terran is broken in that Terrans have to micro, its broken that the other races don't have to micro. People still think that the other races don't have to micro? not compared to terran. and also terran's units scale a lot better with micro (and get a lot worse without) than the other races. thats a problem. I agree with this, if talking in regards to the T v Z mu. But in T v P, Terran needs to micro in order to "keep up" with toss. And so you fucking should when you have teir 1 units as the balls of your army. You have an entire half an army that never gets used because MMMGV is so fucking good, why would you need to go it? Mech is starting to get used a little bit. And mech basically has almost no micro ... it's all about the strategy and positioning. You have to micro more cause of the unit composition you choose, NOT because of your race. EDIT: Also don't want to get into a "HERP DERP MECH ISNT VIABLE THATS WHY HERP DERP" ... dont' give a shit. Just wanted to point it out. This is just the problem, MMMVG is not "so fucking good" once you get into late game. By then, our only choice is to micro our asses off against a Toss who has literally headbutted his keyboard into the a move (Chargelot/Archon). While the Terran player has his whole fucking family at the keyboard looking after 1 control group each trying to micro. Yes, it gets crowded at my desk...... And I agree, we do have to micro because of our unit composition, I wish mech was viable and believe me...SOOOOO many other Terrans do as well. At least we would be able to a move headbutt our armies into each other!........ I'm getting sick of having my whole family in the room, believe me! Fix this Blizzard! erm ... once agian back the ignorant argument of "terran has the most micro, toss has to do noting! it's so easy!" And at no point did i say Terran micro is easy btw, it's hard. All 3 races are. But you are living in a fantasy world if you think that it's like a surgeon preforming heart surgery for Terran to fight, and Toss is the lazy supervisor eating a bagel occasionally checking on the progress of the open wound. Can you please detail what is so hard about Protoss micro? Sorry if I'm ignorant, but it just seems piss easy... f shift spam click. t shift spam click. box all army a move click. lean back and drink a soda I like to imagine my Protoss opponents 1a'ing across the map, getting up and grabbing a snack from the kitchen, and coming back to collect their ladder points after a few minutes. Really though, there's no other viable late-game strategy in TvP other than bio... But by that point, it's all down to the little micro.. Unless you just say screw it and stim and attack the protoss. It's all about spreading units and staying back til you snipe some colossi with Vikings or get some good EMP's on the High Templar.. And on the Protoss side you need to worry about being EMP'd and keeping your Colossi back behind your stalkers. I think TvP would be so much more enjoyable if you could just attack your opponent and not get your army melted in a few seconds. Nope, instead it's all about ~30 supply of your army, until the important units are killed (for either side).
Same here. I like to think of my Terran opponents as 1aing, hitting stim and then right clicking on a colossi with a few units. Once they win, they turn and say "Look mom, I like MVP!"
Seriously, any Terran or Protoss who claims that either side take no micro is just silly. Fully upgraded protoss armies have storm, blink, g-shield and ff to worry about. Terran have stim, wandering medivacs, emp, snipe, scans, picking up if trapped by ffs.
The set up for the battle is where most of the work is done. Once the battle starts, it's mostly keeping the efficiency going.
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On December 09 2011 02:09 Plansix wrote:Show nested quote +On December 09 2011 00:59 Xaga wrote:On December 09 2011 00:05 Qibla wrote:On December 08 2011 21:34 Tingles wrote:On December 08 2011 19:06 ZorBa.G wrote:On December 08 2011 16:40 Tingles wrote:On December 08 2011 16:14 ZorBa.G wrote:On December 08 2011 15:03 kofman wrote:On December 08 2011 14:56 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:On December 08 2011 14:54 kofman wrote:
[quote]
Its not really that Terran is broken in that Terrans have to micro, its broken that the other races don't have to micro. People still think that the other races don't have to micro? not compared to terran. and also terran's units scale a lot better with micro (and get a lot worse without) than the other races. thats a problem. I agree with this, if talking in regards to the T v Z mu. But in T v P, Terran needs to micro in order to "keep up" with toss. And so you fucking should when you have teir 1 units as the balls of your army. You have an entire half an army that never gets used because MMMGV is so fucking good, why would you need to go it? Mech is starting to get used a little bit. And mech basically has almost no micro ... it's all about the strategy and positioning. You have to micro more cause of the unit composition you choose, NOT because of your race. EDIT: Also don't want to get into a "HERP DERP MECH ISNT VIABLE THATS WHY HERP DERP" ... dont' give a shit. Just wanted to point it out. This is just the problem, MMMVG is not "so fucking good" once you get into late game. By then, our only choice is to micro our asses off against a Toss who has literally headbutted his keyboard into the a move (Chargelot/Archon). While the Terran player has his whole fucking family at the keyboard looking after 1 control group each trying to micro. Yes, it gets crowded at my desk...... And I agree, we do have to micro because of our unit composition, I wish mech was viable and believe me...SOOOOO many other Terrans do as well. At least we would be able to a move headbutt our armies into each other!........ I'm getting sick of having my whole family in the room, believe me! Fix this Blizzard! erm ... once agian back the ignorant argument of "terran has the most micro, toss has to do noting! it's so easy!" And at no point did i say Terran micro is easy btw, it's hard. All 3 races are. But you are living in a fantasy world if you think that it's like a surgeon preforming heart surgery for Terran to fight, and Toss is the lazy supervisor eating a bagel occasionally checking on the progress of the open wound. Can you please detail what is so hard about Protoss micro? Sorry if I'm ignorant, but it just seems piss easy... f shift spam click. t shift spam click. box all army a move click. lean back and drink a soda I like to imagine my Protoss opponents 1a'ing across the map, getting up and grabbing a snack from the kitchen, and coming back to collect their ladder points after a few minutes. Really though, there's no other viable late-game strategy in TvP other than bio... But by that point, it's all down to the little micro.. Unless you just say screw it and stim and attack the protoss. It's all about spreading units and staying back til you snipe some colossi with Vikings or get some good EMP's on the High Templar.. And on the Protoss side you need to worry about being EMP'd and keeping your Colossi back behind your stalkers. I think TvP would be so much more enjoyable if you could just attack your opponent and not get your army melted in a few seconds. Nope, instead it's all about ~30 supply of your army, until the important units are killed (for either side). The set up for the battle is where most of the work is done. Once the battle starts, it's mostly keeping the efficiency going.
This is true for protoss. But for terran it's the exact opposite, terran has to micro the entire time in a big engagament, protoss on the other hand has to set up their army pre-fight and can then sit back, cast a few forcefields and storms and well... a move the rest of the army.
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what you are saying is that the game is not balanced for terran at lower levels, and you use statistics from high level play to prove that ?
makes no sense to me \_(^^)_/ (thats a horrible slayersDragoon smileything)
besides, it is completely irelevant how hard terran is to play at lower levels, when they do just as well at the other races in gm and in tournaments.
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This is just my opinion, and I hope it gets read because I really think it is a valid and understated point, even on page 39 or 40.
Yes, each race has their unique strengths and skill requirements.
Terran needs perfect micro
Zerg needs perfect injects
Protoss needs perfect something, forgive me
However, when a Terran screws up his micro and loses a major engagement, his opponent can sprint for his production facilities, and once they're camped in his production line, it is complete GG.
No other race has this problem. Yes, a Zerg can have one or two hatches cut off, but a pro Zerg will just not reproduce their army from those larvae and move on (note, when I say pro, even most pro's don't have the presence of mind to do this.. sad). A Protoss might have that problem with their Robo, but their warpgates can warp in an army anywhere, so trying to camp a Protoss production is nearly impossible.
Now, combine this with the super mobility of Protoss/Zerg reinforcements, and the super immobility of Terran reinforcements, and the problem compounds itself. Once a Zerg or Protoss is in a Terran production line, their ability to reinforce their battleworn armies is superior. Proxy warp-ins/superspeed zerg units allow them to bolster their camping party, while denying any hope of retaliation.
So not only can Terran not camp Protoss or Zerg production efficiently once they've taken advantage after a battle, they can't even reinforce their troops in a timely manner.
All of what I've just stated relates back to the original topic, in that the ramifications for a Terran messing up their most difficult task is far worse than the other races.
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On December 09 2011 02:23 spbelky wrote:
This is just my opinion, and I hope it gets read because I really think it is a valid and understated point, even on page 39 or 40.
Yes, each race has their unique strengths and skill requirements.
Terran needs perfect micro
Zerg needs perfect injects
Protoss needs perfect something, forgive me
However, when a Terran screws up his micro and loses a major engagement, his opponent can sprint for his production facilities, and once they're camped in his production line, it is complete GG.
No other race has this problem. Yes, a Zerg can have one or two hatches cut off, but a pro Zerg will just not reproduce their army from those larvae and move on (note, when I say pro, even most pro's don't have the presence of mind to do this.. sad). A Protoss might have that problem with their Robo, but their warpgates can warp in an army anywhere, so trying to camp a Protoss production is nearly impossible.
Now, combine this with the super mobility of Protoss/Zerg reinforcements, and the super immobility of Terran reinforcements, and the problem compounds itself. Once a Zerg or Protoss is in a Terran production line, their ability to reinforce their battleworn armies is superior. Proxy warp-ins/superspeed zerg units allow them to bolster their camping party, while denying any hope of retaliation.
So not only can Terran not camp Protoss or Zerg production efficiently once they've taken advantage after a battle, they can't even reinforce their troops in a timely manner.
All of what I've just stated relates back to the original topic, in that the ramifications for a Terran messing up their most difficult task is far worse than the other races.
You almost make it sound as if different races have different strengths and weaknesses ^_^
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heard it all before, seems like people are slow the party
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It's definitely true that a terran can get checkmated more easily by units sitting on their production compared to the other two races, but they also have a handful of effective and inexpensive racial perks to stall small enemy armies from getting into their base. Protoss can often lose outright if their army gets smashed by a bad engagement in the middle of the map, since stim will put a bio army on their doorstep very quickly and a single reinforcement of gateway units tends to do poorly versus terran bio. Cannons are quite bad against stimmed marauder medivac, as well.
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EPT
