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[D] Fundamental problems with Terran - Page 37

Forum Index > SC2 General
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vaderseven
Profile Joined September 2008
United States2556 Posts
December 05 2011 00:06 GMT
#721
Actually can you post a source for that, I can't find such information. (about HongUn)
HeavenResign
Profile Joined April 2011
United States702 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-12-05 00:50:47
December 05 2011 00:42 GMT
#722
I don't buy that Terran is imbalanced for foreigners at all, with people citing that Naniwa, HuK, and Idra don't play Terran and do exceptionally well. Those players aren't just considered really good foreigners, they are very often cited as some of the best players in the world in their respective races - period. Just in the Nov Code S finals Tasteless talks about how he thinks Naniwa is the best protoss in the world. There is just no foreign Terran player yet that is at the level of their Korean counterparts yet. When Protoss and Zerg players were whining about T being overpowered in Korea , the response was simply that Korean Terrans are simply that much better than everyone else - and that still holds true for Korean v Foreigner Terrans. Lots of Terran foreigners don't play at as many tournaments lately - like Thorzain or Major, but they do have impressive results. Thorzain winning TSL3 and doing very well in the NASL finals is of course ignored in these discussions. I just think if you're looking to make a point you can make up any number of reasons that you believe are direct proof, but it doesn't mean there's actually truth in what someone is saying.

Also, in terms of carpal tunnel and wrist disorders, it's really silly to blame that on the race. There are lots of things that factor into having wrist nerve damage, such as genetic susceptibility and just having poor posture that are not related in any way to what race someone chooses in Starcraft 2, it is truly grasping straws and very likely is coincidental. Thousands of people suffer from these disorders without playing any RTS video game of any sort along with not being on the computer as much in general as many many pro gamers.

Oh yeah I notice I don't mention Terran design, that's because this is a whine thread with a [D] tag and thus I'm addressing the whine with my opinion. Terran is beautifully designed, if anything the other races are not as well designed.
Strategos
Profile Joined June 2010
Canada132 Posts
December 05 2011 00:43 GMT
#723
On November 30 2011 13:02 SpunXtain wrote:
Let me start with a disclaimer: this is not so much a specific balance thread as it is simply making arguments about fundamental problems I believe exist in the structure of the Terran race, and why it is fundamentally difficult for Blizzard to balance the race.

Strategy games that involve multiple races are always going to face challenges balancing races. This was true in Starcraft, Warcraft III, and many other RTS's out there. However, in Starcraft 2, there are a number of mechanics that make the game fundamentally difficult to balance - particularly across different skill levels.

Terran units, in general, have the ability to exponentially increase in effectiveness with effective micro ability. Banshees are able to perma-kite nonstimmed marines; ghosts in theory outrange infestors and templar with snipe/emp, and stimmed marines can theoretically kite their "hard counters" such as banelings, zealots and ultralisks. Harassment with banshees, hellions, and reapers becomes infinitely more effective with correct micro of these units.

Because this makes Terran units theoretically 'stronger' than the other races, Blizzard has implemented many nerfs to the Terran race to compensate for this micro potential. The way Blizzard appears to view the race is that, in head on battles, Terrans will always lose the fights to storms/colossus/fungals/banelings, etc. However, with good micro, Terran is able to win fights that it theoretically should lose based on raw battle power.

The reason that Terran were able to dominate so well for so long in the GSL is that players at this level were able to exploit the micro potential of the Terran units and use them much more effectively than other races. In response, Blizzard has attempted to balance the Terran race based on top-level Korean players, and nerfed reapers, hellions, ghosts etc. accordingly.

The problem with this response is that at lower levels, where players are not at the same level as the Korean scene and do not have the same micro/multitask potential, Terran is fundamentally going to be a weaker race. Many may dispute this fact, but the results even of top Foreign players show that this statement is true.

Please acknoweldge this data as just an example that this phenomena seems to be occuring based on recent results. As we know, Blizzard does not release its matchup statistics for the wider public to view. As at 30/11/2011, the top 6 foreigners in TLPD are all zerg and protoss. Only two terrans are in the top 10 - Major at 7th, and Kas at 10th.

Furthermore, results from recent tournaments have been very heavily dominated by zergs and protosses from the foreign point of view. These are the top foreign scores from some recent tournaments (gaps are filled by Korean players)

Blizzcon invitational: Sen (Z) 3rd, Naniwa (P) 4th

MLG Orlando: Huk (P) 1st, Idra (Z) 4th

Esports World Cup: Stephano (Z) 1st, Mana (P) 2nd

IEM New York: Gatored (P) 4th, TT1 (P) 5th-8th, Elfi (P) 5th-8th

IEM Guangzhou: Idra (Z) 1st, Elfi (P) 2nd, Hasuobs (P) 4th

IPL 3: Stephano (Z) 1st, Ret (Z) 5th-8th, Idra (Z) 5th-8th

MLG Providence: Naniwa (P) 2nd, Huk (P) 5th, Haypro (Z) 7th, Idra (Z) 8th, Kiwikaki (P) 9th, Ret (Z) 10th-11th, Slush (Z) 10th-11th

The only notable achievements by any Terran foreign players in recent months was Goody's 2nd place behind Nerchio in Battle of Berlin, and Selects 2nd behind Idra in ASUS ROG.

Let me know what you think about this topic, to me it seems like Blizzard have dug themselves into a bit of a hole in terms of balancing the game across the board. Do you think that Heart of the Swarm will fix this issue to some degree? Do others agree that this is a problem with the game?

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
EDIT:

Apparently this thread has created a lot of confusion and argument within the community, so to better summarize myself and the points I'm trying to make:

1. My argument is not that Terran is underpowered, it is that fundamentally it is difficult to balance the game for different levels of play. The mechanics of the game are such that different levels of players are rewarded more or less by different races - because there are different 'thresholds' of skill levels where races seem to be more or less powerful, there is a fundamental flaw in trying to balance the game in this way.

2. No, this has nothing to do with my own personal play-styles, it is a comment on the way the game is played at multiple levels. I use foreign top players and data as an example to compare against Korean top gamers: I have not omitted Koreans because I'm ignoring them, I've omitted them because I'm comparing against them.

3. This flaw is not necessarily on the Terran's side. It could be, as some pointed out, that the other races have design flaws. If Terran is the 'solid' race and the other 2 races are balanced to compensate for their shortcomings at the top level of play, Terran necessarily appears to be weaker at levels where players cannot fully exploit their full functionality.

4. I did not deliberately omit any recent results, I simply took them from the first page of the Liquipedia calendar of major events.

5. People who say 'so you need to be good to play terran' are completely missing the point of this post. The argument is not that the other races don't require skill, its that Terran has different skill thresholds that make balancing the race difficult across multiple levels.

6. I'm not discussing bronze-platinum level players etc. As you'll note, the only direct references I've made have been to top level tournaments around the world. I don't think Blizzard mind if bronze-masters is not perfectly balanced, but I would argue that one of their objectives is to have a fairly level playing field across both the GSL as well as these higher level tournaments that foreign progamers compete in.


The underlying logic of this post is true; if different races require more multitasking/micro or punish lack of multitasking/micro harder than others, then balancing the game for multiple skill levels has a fundamental flaw. In broodwar I would argue that multitasking owness (during battles or otherwise) was fairly evenly spread between the races, but in its current state this is not necessarily true for SC2. The fact that it is Terran that appears to be 'the micro race' is coincidental; if units were different it could easily be Protoss or Zerg. I realise that this is a difficult concept to confer to people and I probably haven't done the best job of it but hopefully this clears things up a bit.

Perhaps this means that simple buffs/nerfs to individual units is not the correct way for Blizzard to be balancing the game, but instead, trying to rework some of the units themselves. Hopefully HOTS will rectify this problem a bit, and I'm sure its something the Blizzard team have been considering for a while. + Show Spoiler +


Lol. Good try


User was warned for this post
"Good news MLG fans, WE HAVE CHAIRS THIS YEAR!"
mindwave1sg
Profile Joined June 2011
Taiwan18 Posts
December 05 2011 00:45 GMT
#724
On November 30 2011 14:03 canikizu wrote:
Show nested quote +
On November 30 2011 13:58 ThePlayer33 wrote:
whats the fundamental problem?????????

that there isn't a good foreign terran?

Terran got punished for bad micro.


like how toss needs to forcefield at the right time and position? or zerg spliting lings banelings and make sure mutas dont die?
Happylime
Profile Joined August 2011
United States133 Posts
December 05 2011 00:53 GMT
#725
I think guys that the issue is currently terran armies, when we aren't able to manipulate terrain to bolster our micro, are simply too fragile right now. Protoss and Zerg armies simply squash terran forces in large battles, and this has been progressing since release, terran drops and harassment has to do extreme damage, or terran early game has to win us games.

Basically we need more big meaty units, and harassment units (specifically banshees) need to be more frail than they currently are.
Get busy living, or get busy dying.
statikg
Profile Joined May 2010
Canada930 Posts
December 05 2011 01:36 GMT
#726
On December 05 2011 09:02 vaderseven wrote:
Show nested quote +
On December 03 2011 08:22 Alexstrasas wrote:
On December 03 2011 07:25 vaderseven wrote:
On December 03 2011 07:23 SpunXtain wrote:
On December 02 2011 23:53 vaderseven wrote:
That completely ignores the huge pluses you get for playing T in the form of the least demanding decision making skill set.Read the last post on page 35. I think I explain that in detail there.


??? I don't see how any race is more or less decision demanding except perhaps zerg to an extent with larva. Terran are punished if they make more decisions on when to move out, when to upgrade, when to drop, where to place buildings, etc etc etc.

I hardly thing this completely balances the relative lack of micro oweness on the other two races.


Let me rephrase. The is a much higher skill cap built into the decision making of toss and zerg.


And you say this based on what?


My own experience. Conversations with players I know such as nrgmonk. Watching a very large % of the pro games that are put into vods and a large amount of replays.

The whole general attitude of Terran being the race that sets the pace of a game supports this as well.


What? Setting the pace of the game = easy decision making? By defintiion being reactive means that you are not making decisions but simply reacting. Your logic = fail. Zerg for example can make poor decisions and easily recover from them due to their speed. Protoss can recover from a poor decision by throwing down a FF wall. A terran who moves out at the wrong time into a poor position, typically can't retreat easily.
GungraveHero2
Profile Joined October 2011
57 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-12-05 02:48:06
December 05 2011 02:25 GMT
#727
edit : noticed that im kinda whining and maybe off topic a litle ,but im fealing this show what someone not pro gamer but considered good think but if any mods feal that not ok , you can remove if this dont help this topic or that not right to say that .

first i want to say that im korean so my english not realy good but plz read .

the op realy say my fealing with terran since some months

im not a pro gamer but im at 1k master and play vs mostly grandmaster and good high master .

and honestly im doing worst each months since 3-4 months , all the nerf to terran dont help me either .

the ghost nerf realy got me hard , since i realy needed them for get the chance to win , now i alway get 2-3 storm in because im not good like the 1 % pro gamer korean who can still snipe and emp the templar good . i just got owned .

and for the people who say you see more and more terran doing all in and early attack , that because the mid and late game with terran realy realy hard to play right now vs good zerg and protoss .

matchup work like that now :
p v t , protoss got many good all in that can kill the terran before late game , but most of the protoss now fast nexus
and good protoss can hold any kind of baract all in now because mostly of the 5 sec baract nerf
( that was for fix t v z 2 rax but this changed the pvt matchup too )
after fast nexus they rush to colosus

what this mean ? terran need viking now for do any kind of attack other that dropship harass and that usualy very early in the game so by the time the terran got enough viking for do anything the protoss got zealot leg speed ( crazy dps )
storm/ archon , here that very hard for the terran to win unless you got perfect unit control that only the 1 % korean can do.

yes you can still win t v p here but you usualy need to be more skilled that the protoss for the same result
( or he failed in early game all in you so you kinda got a advantage )

t v z realy not the same but still very hard to play too , but in this matchup terran got MANY good all in and build order .
mostly what zerg need to do for win here = hold the all in and get the game into the mid/late game , if they do that and dont loss to many drone in the early game they usualy win ( unless we talk here again about the 1 % korean )

basicaly they make 50-60 drone and got eco advantage , take third and make muta , when they got muta out they will harass the whole game with them keeping the terran on the defense side , at the same time you usualy see better food count , that not strange for exemple to see 90 terran vs 110 zerg at some point , after 110 terran and 160 zerg because of queen inject system ( same problem for z v p btw , but here that worst )

anyway good zerg will rally all unit in the midle of the map and mass zergling/roach/infestor and when terran move out they morf baneling and will A move terran army ( with some micro required but not the same level required on the terran part )

because that the terran who need to do something in this matchup , if the terran loss any big fight in mid/late game that game over , and the control for everything realy more hard on the terran side .

that what someone with 1k master feal like about the current game and metagame curently . of course im biased for terran but im sure they are some true in what i have write .

good topic and i hope this add something , thx for read .
gondolin
Profile Blog Joined September 2007
France332 Posts
December 05 2011 02:57 GMT
#728
Well a lot of high Terran players have been complaining about protoss lately from the stream I have been watching: Jinro, Cloud, Beasty, Kas, Illusion; and Rainbow right now is playing protoss instead of terran... But honestly at my level the 111 all in is still easier to do than it is for the protoss to defend, so i can't complain, i can always revert to it if I went to win. And it's nice than in macro play you have to outplay the P as T, it's a great way of learning!
Sajaki
Profile Joined June 2011
Canada1135 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-12-05 03:11:40
December 05 2011 03:08 GMT
#729
My quick opinions on the subject, as I play both races. . . .

As Protoss, I feel that the micro is more clutch, as in with FF, if you screw up your forcefields (especially in the early-mid game) It can very well cost you the game. Good micro and bad micro can mean life and death in that regard.

As terran, I feel you are allowed to make more mistakes with your micro and not get punished horribly, however i feel that (to make up for this) you have to micro MORE.

Early game, Toss requires more micro then Terran in order to survive (2 rax, 1-1-1, etc). Midgame and lategame, however, I would say that the Terran player has to micro more in order to come out ahead in a fight. There is no way anyone can argue that chargelot archon is more micro intensive the MMMG, Chargelot archon is the epitome of A-Move. The micro intensive part is with casting feedback and storm, which is matched in difficulty with EMP + snipe. But the terran has to stutter step (for his life btw), and whilst stutter stepping in itself isn't very complicated, it requires a lot more time effort and attention then, say, forcefields.

So, to satisfy both sides (?) I would say that Protoss micro is Quality over Quantity, screwing up can be very costly, especially early/mid game. And Terran is Quantity over Quality, in that screwing up wont end the game (usually), but it requires much more time as you have to micro hard over long durations.
Inno pls...
Kharnage
Profile Joined September 2011
Australia920 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-12-05 03:14:49
December 05 2011 03:12 GMT
#730
On December 05 2011 12:08 Sajaki wrote:
My quick opinions on the subject, as I play both races. . . .

As Protoss, I feel that the micro is more clutch, as in with FF, if you screw up your forcefields (especially in the early-mid game) It can very well cost you the game. Good micro and bad micro can mean life and death in that regard.

As terran, I feel you are allowed to make more mistakes with your micro and not get punished horribly, however i feel that (to make up for this) you have to micro MORE.

Early game, Toss requires more micro then Terran in order to survive (2 rax, 1-1-1, etc). Midgame and lategame, however, I would say that the Terran player has to micro more in order to come out ahead in a fight. There is no way anyone can argue that chargelot archon is more micro intensive the MMMG, Chargelot archon is the epitome of A-Move. The micro intensive part is with casting feedback and storm, which is matched in difficulty with EMP + snipe. But the terran has to stutter step (for his life btw), and whilst stutter stepping in itself isn't very complicated, it requires a lot more time effort and attention then, say, forcefields.

So, to satisfy both sides (?) I would say that Protoss micro is Quality over Quantity, screwing up can be very costly, especially early/mid game. And Terran is Quantity over Quality, in that screwing up wont end the game (usually), but it requires much more time as you have to micro hard over long durations.


This guy is smart. My feelings on it exactly.

Good example is Protoss early FF on the ramp is slightly off, protoss lose.
Terran miss a stutter step and take a bit of extra damage then continue stuttering(?) to do almost exactly the same amount of damage.
Note, i'm not saying stutter step vs not stutter stepping, just if you stutter step poorly you're still "ok" but if you FF poorly you lose int he early game.
Toadvine
Profile Joined November 2010
Poland2234 Posts
December 05 2011 03:13 GMT
#731
Honestly, it's the relative success of foreigner Zerg players that surprises me more than the failure of the Terrans.

I mean, look at all these "foreigner" Protosses tearing it up: HuK, Naniwa and Sase have all been staying in Korea for a good amount of time now, and they have no plans of leaving anytime soon. I mean, literally, nearly every foreigner to commit seriously to practicing there plays Protoss. So yeah, it's not exactly surprising when they fly over to an MLG and do well.

If you exclude these guys, the actual foreigner Protosses (players practicing on NA and EU servers) do about as well as the Terrans. The only real anomaly here is Stephano, although he didn't look that hot during Dreamhack.
"There are always some Eskimos ready to instruct the Congolese on how to cope with heat waves." - S.J.Lec
Zombo Joe
Profile Joined May 2010
Canada850 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-12-05 07:06:09
December 05 2011 07:05 GMT
#732
I feel like the biggest problem with Terran is the lack of map control due to how every unit is mega slow with the exception of Hellions which are terrible against anything but Zealots Marines and Zerglings. The only map control Terran can get is drops and banshees, both are denied in the same fashion. I feel like spidermines would be enough and maybe a tank buff to make them not horrible against Toss.
It seems really silly for Terran to go Bio, a style based around mobility when Bio is slower than everything Zerg and Toss have. And no stimming across the map is a dumb idea. However Bio is pretty legit in TvT.

Other than Thorzain, are there any other foreigner Terrans that can consistently beat koreans?
I am Terranfying.
Beece
Profile Joined May 2010
United States62 Posts
December 05 2011 07:06 GMT
#733
fundamental problem with Terran.....Marines
A man chooses! A slave obeys!
Spicy_Curry
Profile Blog Joined March 2011
United States10573 Posts
December 05 2011 07:11 GMT
#734
On December 05 2011 16:05 Zombo Joe wrote:
I feel like the biggest problem with Terran is the lack of map control due to how every unit is mega slow with the exception of Hellions which are terrible against anything but Zealots Marines and Zerglings. The only map control Terran can get is drops and banshees, both are denied in the same fashion. I feel like spidermines would be enough and maybe a tank buff to make them not horrible against Toss.
It seems really silly for Terran to go Bio, a style based around mobility when Bio is slower than everything Zerg and Toss have. And no stimming across the map is a dumb idea. However Bio is pretty legit in TvT.

Other than Thorzain, are there any other foreigner Terrans that can consistently beat koreans?



Hellions are pretty good against workers
High Risk Low Reward
Lavi
Profile Joined November 2011
Bangladesh793 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-12-05 07:51:56
December 05 2011 07:39 GMT
#735
On December 05 2011 16:05 Zombo Joe wrote:
I feel like the biggest problem with Terran is the lack of map control due to how every unit is mega slow with the exception of Hellions which are terrible against anything but Zealots Marines and Zerglings. The only map control Terran can get is drops and banshees, both are denied in the same fashion. I feel like spidermines would be enough and maybe a tank buff to make them not horrible against Toss.
It seems really silly for Terran to go Bio, a style based around mobility when Bio is slower than everything Zerg and Toss have. And no stimming across the map is a dumb idea. However Bio is pretty legit in TvT.

Other than Thorzain, are there any other foreigner Terrans that can consistently beat koreans?


To be fair... bio is faster than protoss ball because their main aoe colossus and templar are slow, so it naturally slows down the army, and getting in the wrong position will get them picked off from a good terran with faster viking and ghosts...

Watch puma vs hero nasl 2 game 6 to see my point... but of course puma is puma, and it takes a ton of multitasking and apm to constantly move your units around, do side distractions, etc. to pull the protoss ball around so that the slower units get into bad positions and are able to be picked off by your ghost /vikings... definitely something not every terran can do but the game should be balanced around pro level anyways ...

Resistentialism
Profile Blog Joined October 2010
Canada688 Posts
December 05 2011 07:56 GMT
#736
You don't need to constantly stim your bio across the map to have map control with them, but you seem to think that harass options are your only form of map control, so what do I know about what you mean.
.Sic.
Profile Joined February 2011
Korea (South)497 Posts
December 05 2011 07:59 GMT
#737
I love how this guy blatantly leaves out the fact that a terran won the last two GSLs. Stop beating a dead horse by talking about all this design flaw crap. Go play some games and get better instead.
Clan MvP Member | http://sc2ranks.com/kr/3273340/SicMvP
HellionDrop
Profile Blog Joined June 2011
281 Posts
December 05 2011 07:59 GMT
#738
On December 05 2011 16:39 Lavi wrote:
Show nested quote +
On December 05 2011 16:05 Zombo Joe wrote:
I feel like the biggest problem with Terran is the lack of map control due to how every unit is mega slow with the exception of Hellions which are terrible against anything but Zealots Marines and Zerglings. The only map control Terran can get is drops and banshees, both are denied in the same fashion. I feel like spidermines would be enough and maybe a tank buff to make them not horrible against Toss.
It seems really silly for Terran to go Bio, a style based around mobility when Bio is slower than everything Zerg and Toss have. And no stimming across the map is a dumb idea. However Bio is pretty legit in TvT.

Other than Thorzain, are there any other foreigner Terrans that can consistently beat koreans?


To be fair... bio is faster than protoss ball because their main aoe colossus and templar are slow, so it naturally slows down the army, and getting in the wrong position will get them picked off from a good terran with faster viking and ghosts...

Watch puma vs hero nasl 2 game 6 to see my point... but of course puma is puma, and it takes a ton of multitasking and apm to constantly move your units around, do side distractions, etc. to pull the protoss ball around so that the slower units get into bad positions and are able to be picked off by your ghost /vikings... definitely something not every terran can do but the game should be balanced around pro level anyways ...



bio have the same speed as colossus......what are you talking about. you can stim yes, but that doesn't give you map control. and your medivac would be lagging behind
DarK[A]
Profile Blog Joined October 2011
United States217 Posts
December 05 2011 18:50 GMT
#739
On December 05 2011 09:42 DrowSwordsman wrote:
Also, in terms of carpal tunnel and wrist disorders, it's really silly to blame that on the race. There are lots of things that factor into having wrist nerve damage, such as genetic susceptibility and just having poor posture...


I can confirm this. When I first started playing Counter-Strike it was on my family's computer on a desk at a weird position and I developed intense pain in my wrist after playing for a while. Once I got my own computer that was able to run it (lol 1.6) and got things set up more comfortably, there was no more pain, despite getting into some competitive leagues and playing even longer hours.
Blizzard_torments_me
Profile Joined February 2010
Romania199 Posts
December 08 2011 05:03 GMT
#740
On December 05 2011 16:06 Beece wrote:
fundamental problem with Terran.....Marines


Fundamental problem with you, you suck at the game and don't know wtf you're talking about.

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