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GTPGlitch
5061 Posts
the execution vs decision making thing is what keeps making me bounce between T and P.... The thrill of the knife's-edge battles that (sometimes) happen with T is awesome, but losing because i can't really micro all that well is very discouraging... whereas, to me, P feels like the battles just kind of happen~and you either smash or get smashed, there's no close middle ground (Roaches vs blink stalkers excepted) @_@ | ||
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OxyFuel
Canada195 Posts
On December 02 2011 10:02 Fig wrote: This thread is looking from the wrong perspective. It's not a problem that Terran units are all very microable. The problem is that many toss and zerg units are NOT. Unfortunately this is because Blizzard seems intent on removing some micro from the game. One example of this is when they hugely nerfed the charged damage on voidrays, severely reducing the incentive to micro them carefully. The void ray used to be the perfect example of a unit that is like what terrans have. On the weak side without micro, and on the strong side when micro is applied. Blizzard noobified it to be better without micro, and worse with micro. Is this type of change really what terrans want for their own units? I don't think so. I know that for me, the void ray went from being my favorite unit to my second least favorite overnight. Well, maybe not overnight. The removal of fazing was also sad to see, from the standpoint of someone who likes the micro potential of units. What's my least favorite unit? The colossus. It used to require some micro when it had a high damage, high cooldown attack. Then Blizzard changed it to have lower damage, lower cooldown. This again reduced incentive to put apm into microing it. Everyone should want a game where each unit gets better if more micro is applied to control it. Right now only terrans have more of those units than the other races. Instead of making terran units more boring, what is needed is for units to increase in "microability" to make the game more interesting. This. I completely agree with everything you said. We don't need to make the game more "noob" friendly. I think that if Protoss and Zerg got some more units that NEEDED micro, it would really help the game. | ||
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vaderseven
United States2556 Posts
On December 02 2011 14:06 Active.815 wrote: vaderseven is the god of thread :D the execution vs decision making thing is what keeps making me bounce between T and P.... The thrill of the knife's-edge battles that (sometimes) happen with T is awesome, but losing because i can't really micro all that well is very discouraging... whereas, to me, P feels like the battles just kind of happen~and you either smash or get smashed, there's no close middle ground (Roaches vs blink stalkers excepted) @_@ lol. I just spent a shit ton of time thinking about the issue. At one point when my wrist was bad i began looking into progamers that had mouse hand issues and I came up with a list of i think it was 11. Every single one was a Terran player. That's when i started to think about the issue in a critical way. There is a reason that among MC, Nestea, and MVP only one has wrist issues (MVP). There is a reason that among Flash, Bisu, and Jeadong only one has wrist issues (Flash). There is a reason that among Thorzain, Huk/Naniwa, Idra that only one has wrist issues (Thorzain). TLO is the other I can recall off the top of my head. This is not a game design problem. The game can be balanced with these things in mind and it has been. People just don't see at first that because what is easy about your race is hard in another doesnt actually mean anything is easy for any race lol. They are relative terms. If you, as a Terran, don't know how to scout cheese and spot the mid game choices of your enemy you will never be a pro. If you, as a Protoss, can't micro properly to ensure that every ultra expensive unit does its proper use you will never be a pro. Being a winner at a high level is about abusing the strs of what you are given. Thats why Nestea appears to just be too smart to beat. He knows how to make decisions and has honed that to a razer's edge. MMA/MVP/Puma all have multitasking and macro/micro that is always just a thing of pure awe to watch if you appreciate it for what it is. Dont let some weird bias flavor your view towards a Race because it has a bit of an easier time with what you struggle and rage over. Ya terran's dont have to have nearly as much deviation or reaction preplanned into thier play. Cool. Zerg and Protoss aren't forced to split thier army and use it many places at once in order to maximize cost effectiviness. I am glad I played terran as my first race in sc2. Nothing can compare to the joy of doing multi drops while defending a run by all while taking a 4th base and adding 5 more rax and 2 factories while mass producing marines out of of you 12 active rax. Straight forward and hard helped me to learn how to focus in and refine timings to a fine point. I was never really meant to play that way though. Physically my mouse hand can't do it and I enjoy the theory side WAY too much. I don't feel like I am playing poorly nearly as often when I play toss, I just feel like I don't know what the right deviation is at every point. | ||
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courtpanda
866 Posts
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vaderseven
United States2556 Posts
If you were trying to FE as Terran into a long passive macro game where you defended and defended until you had the right army to go win then switch to Zerg you will prolly have a shit ton of success no matter the exp difference. The difference in mechanics at that level of play between the races is slim if any at all. Any zerg, terran, or toss can go from Plat to Diamond from either mass gaming the same 3 builds over and over for 40-50 hours a week for 2 weeks straight OR by having a professional player coach them on teh decision making in each matchup for 40-50 hours. Players that are at a sub GM level (honestly probably a sub mid pro level) always have enough gaps in every area of play that any large investment of time that has any focus (do the same builds over and over 40 hours a week will perfect execution to a new level for a Plat and having a pro teach you how to make decisions for 40 hours a week will make you really good at that compared to where you started). | ||
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vaderseven
United States2556 Posts
The lack of injuries in the P/Z pro player lists doesn't mean that they are really easier, it means that there is very little to be gained from playing with that kind of hand movements. At a pro level, fast mouse hand movements are a direct result of high multitasking based micro. There is nothing else in the game that should speed up the mouse hand like that. Goody is often touted as being a 'slow' terran that wins alot with his very refined mech play. He is the best example of someone that is playing terran in ways that are not similar at all to the common pro methods. His success is very often attributed to his amazingly smart decision making. You CAN play any race any way you want. The reason you aren't being paid to play video games for living isn't because you didn't or did join the Terran train early in the life of this game. Its because your multitasking, micro, macro, and decision making are not near good enough to compare to the refined play of a professional that is able and willing to practice his play for 40+ hours a week, every week. If you can't see and understand that then you are not ready to try to think about the concept of design goals in a game like sc2. This discussion should be over imo, the only things that will result are agreements with this or whining about A-Move race vs 0 micro unit vs OP ability vs cost effective unit X. Its pointless, illogical, and SMALL MINDED. If you feel like a race is better than yours then try race switching. I promise you that 95% or more of people that try to race switch either end up inactive as a player or go back to their 'underpowered' race cuz they can win more with them. The other 5% suck it up and suck for awhile then slowly get better. That 5% will get to a point and then if they play long enough surpass their old abilities with their old race. The only constant in this is playing and practicing make you better. Change disrupts that and then it falls right back into that same exact pattern. I never will understand how people can fool themselves into accepting anything other than honest and open self criticism in the face of losing a game vs another human playing the same game. The fact that there is a pro scene and that any pro is able to beat you just the same no matter your race or his race means guess what, the human that is playing the game is the one that wins, not the race he chooses. pce. | ||
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petro1987
Brazil374 Posts
On December 02 2011 14:51 vaderseven wrote: To be clear, If toss and zerg offered ways to excel at execution to the point that they could play their wrists off like terran players then you can bet your golden ass that players like MC and Nestea would be at the same level of risk for that kind of injury. The lack of injuries in the P/Z pro player lists doesn't mean that they are really easier, it means that there is very little to be gained from playing with that kind of hand movements. At a pro level, fast mouse hand movements are a direct result of high multitasking based micro. There is nothing else in the game that should speed up the mouse hand like that. Goody is often touted as being a 'slow' terran that wins alot with his very refined mech play. He is the best example of someone that is playing terran in ways that are not similar at all to the common pro methods. His success is very often attributed to his amazingly smart decision making. You CAN play any race any way you want. The reason you aren't being paid to play video games for living isn't because you didn't or did join the Terran train early in the life of this game. Its because your multitasking, micro, macro, and decision making are not near good enough to compare to the refined play of a professional that is able and willing to practice his play for 40+ hours a week, every week. If you can't see and understand that then you are not ready to try to think about the concept of design goals in a game like sc2. This discussion should be over imo, the only things that will result are agreements with this or whining about A-Move race vs 0 micro unit vs OP ability vs cost effective unit X. Its pointless, illogical, and SMALL MINDED. If you feel like a race is better than yours then try race switching. I promise you that 95% or more of people that try to race switch either end up inactive as a player or go back to their 'underpowered' race cuz they can win more with them. The other 5% suck it up and suck for awhile then slowly get better. That 5% will get to a point and then if they play long enough surpass their old abilities with their old race. The only constant in this is playing and practicing make you better. Change disrupts that and then it falls right back into that same exact pattern. I never will understand how people can fool themselves into accepting anything other than honest and open self criticism in the face of losing a game vs another human playing the same game. The fact that there is a pro scene and that any pro is able to beat you just the same no matter your race or his race means guess what, the human that is playing the game is the one that wins, not the race he chooses. pce. Your signature is quite informational. You're changing from T to P, right? I can obviously see why you have this opinion about all this discussion being pointless, illogical and small minded now. If you yourself changed races because P is "less mechanical demanding", then why wouldn't other players that don't even have 40 hrs a week to play wouldn't? Besides, the point of the OP doesn't have anything to do with balance. He just wants Z and P to be made "more mechanical demanding". The game itself would only benefit from it. | ||
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vaderseven
United States2556 Posts
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vaderseven
United States2556 Posts
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Mr Showtime
United States1353 Posts
On November 30 2011 13:18 Ruscour wrote: This always confuses the hell out of me. It's off topic, but I need to rant here. 0 degrees Celsius is melting point. 100 degrees Celsius is boiling point. Fahrenheit does its own thing. Small -> medium -> large, day -> month -> year. How does month -> day -> year make any sense at all? Gram -> kilogram -> tonne. 1, 1000, 1000000. Ounce -> pound -> stone. 1, 16, 224. The world doesn't use American measurements because they make no logical sense. So don't discriminate on others, Americans, for not using your flawed system. /rant Also off topic :/ I'm not going to argue that the American systems are better. They aren't. But don't be so ignorant that you think there's no logical basis. Measurement are not random. Celsius is based around Melting/Boiling points. 0-100 (melt - boil) Fahrenheit is based around standard living temperature. 0-100 (really cold - really hot) 1 pound = 16 ounces. No different than 1 kilogram = 1000 grams. Mind you base 10 is a bit easier. Nobody uses the stone. Don't know why you'd even bring that up. For extremely large measurements tons are used, but that's it. Everything is just in terms of pounds. The year is clearly is the least immediately important since it's such a long period of time it's kind of a given, so it's universally last. The most relevant should be the month, so it should go first. And then the date fits right into the middle. So this is also a matter of relevance similar to the temperature scale. A bit more subjective, so there isn't really an argument to be had in this case. Sure small to large makes sense when you say it that way. But the way we use the date has nothing to do with some order of small to large, but rather an identification of a moment in time. Not really related. /counterrant User was warned for this post | ||
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SpunXtain
Australia165 Posts
On December 02 2011 23:53 vaderseven wrote: That completely ignores the huge pluses you get for playing T in the form of the least demanding decision making skill set.Read the last post on page 35. I think I explain that in detail there. ??? I don't see how any race is more or less decision demanding except perhaps zerg to an extent with larva. Terran are punished if they make poor decisions on when to move out, when to upgrade, when to drop, where to place buildings, etc etc etc. I hardly think this completely balances the relative lack of micro oweness on the other two races. edit; sp | ||
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vaderseven
United States2556 Posts
On December 03 2011 07:23 SpunXtain wrote: ??? I don't see how any race is more or less decision demanding except perhaps zerg to an extent with larva. Terran are punished if they make more decisions on when to move out, when to upgrade, when to drop, where to place buildings, etc etc etc. I hardly thing this completely balances the relative lack of micro oweness on the other two races. Let me rephrase. The is a much higher skill cap built into the decision making of toss and zerg. | ||
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Palmar
Iceland22631 Posts
On December 03 2011 00:23 Mr Showtime wrote: Also off topic :/ I'm not going to argue that the American systems are better. They aren't. But don't be so ignorant that you think there's no logical basis. Measurement are not random. Celsius is based around Melting/Boiling points. 0-100 (melt - boil) Fahrenheit is based around standard living temperature. 0-100 (really cold - really hot) 1 pound = 16 ounces. No different than 1 kilogram = 1000 grams. Mind you base 10 is a bit easier. Nobody uses the stone. Don't know why you'd even bring that up. For extremely large measurements tons are used, but that's it. Everything is just in terms of pounds. The year is clearly is the least immediately important since it's such a long period of time it's kind of a given, so it's universally last. The most relevant should be the month, so it should go first. And then the date fits right into the middle. So this is also a matter of relevance similar to the temperature scale. A bit more subjective, so there isn't really an argument to be had in this case. Sure small to large makes sense when you say it that way. But the way we use the date has nothing to do with some order of small to large, but rather an identification of a moment in time. Not really related. /counterrant I don't agree, why is the month more important than the date? Now, I understand the argument that you generally say it in the m-d-y order, assuming you speak English. It's the other way around in Iceland though, and many other places around the world. But the main issue is of course that the american way of writing it down makes no sense because unlike almost any other format of numbers it doesn't go either from the smallest to the largest, or the other way around, but from the middle to the smallest to the largest. Now I'm gonna give you this though, I'm a system admin, and I name all log/version/anything files in a pretty clear format everyone understands. (YYYYMMDDHHMM), and that makes even more sense. But yeah, putting the month before the date makes no sense, because the date is the smallest, and thus the most precise variable. | ||
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T0fuuu
Australia2275 Posts
On December 02 2011 14:25 vaderseven wrote: That's when i started to think about the issue in a critical way. There is a reason that among MC, Nestea, and MVP only one has wrist issues (MVP). There is a reason that among Flash, Bisu, and Jeadong only one has wrist issues (Flash). There is a reason that among Thorzain, Huk/Naniwa, Idra that only one has wrist issues (Thorzain). TLO is the other I can recall off the top of my head. HOLY SHIT ! SC HAS A COLLAPSED LUNG! PLAYING TERRAN IS FUCKING DANGEROUS !!! Nah really... next you will be making absurd comments like zerg players are fat therefore their race requires the most visits to kfc out of all races. If this is your level of critical thinking then I am worried for you. | ||
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HolyArrow
United States7116 Posts
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Alexstrasas
302 Posts
On December 03 2011 07:25 vaderseven wrote: Let me rephrase. The is a much higher skill cap built into the decision making of toss and zerg. And you say this based on what? | ||
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Resistentialism
Canada688 Posts
+ Show Spoiler + JJakji managed to win the GSL November code S | ||
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vaderseven
United States2556 Posts
On December 03 2011 07:42 T0fuuu wrote: HOLY SHIT ! SC HAS A COLLAPSED LUNG! PLAYING TERRAN IS FUCKING DANGEROUS !!! Nah really... next you will be making absurd comments like zerg players are fat therefore their race requires the most visits to kfc out of all races. If this is your level of critical thinking then I am worried for you. You must have read the post in this thread within the alst page or two where I outlined a wrist injury I developed and then researched heavily. One of the areas I looked into was pro gamers that had developed wrist issues. If you disagree then don't post all caps hyperbole that isn't implied at all by my post and instead post evidence that clarify the issue. Insulting people by saying things that they did not say and then attributing them to them is not a valid way to bring evidence to the table. To be clear, if you know of other race's pro gamers that have mouse hand issues that have developed I would love to know because this IS something I am interested in for personal reasons. | ||
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vaderseven
United States2556 Posts
My own experience. Conversations with players I know such as nrgmonk. Watching a very large % of the pro games that are put into vods and a large amount of replays. The whole general attitude of Terran being the race that sets the pace of a game supports this as well. | ||
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vaderseven
United States2556 Posts
On December 03 2011 08:21 HolyArrow wrote: I'd like to add that HongUn (a Protoss player, for those not familiar with him) was/is considering retirement as a progamer due to wrist issues. Cherrypicking evidence is bad. Or if you didn't intend to cherrypick and simply didn't know, then now you know Thanks! I will be looking into that. I always am looking for more source info to see if a player of that level talks about how they deal with it and/or what caused the condition in their opinion. | ||
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