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On December 02 2011 04:41 Iamyournoob wrote:
In SC2 I have the feeling the micro-bility of the races' units differ a lot.
It actually gets to the point where the micro of one race can completely negate any micro efforts from the other races.
Examples:
- Terran/Zerg engages a Protoss early game. Protoss lands very good force fields. The battle will end in the Protoss' favour
and the T/Z can't do anything about it.
- Terran has 6 ghosts, scans ahead and sees aToss army. T cloaks the ghosts and EMPs the whole Toss army, then stims runs in and kills the Protoss. No matter how good you are as Protoss, this "mistake" costs you the game, you can't win the engagement since you can hardly run from a Terran army.
And this is plainly bad. If a good Terran lands good EMPs it is most of the time GG. You can't micro against it. You can't micro against FF, nore Fungal.
On top of this different units benefit differently from micro. Look at the difference between a microed and unmicroed marine/marauder: These units become so much stronger in the hands of a good player.
Why is a Banshee able to kite marines, but Stalker's not? Look at how pathetic Stalkers look when trying to kite Marines.
Due to animation issues microing Stalkers is a farce.
Good point here. The power of spell casters and the way armies clump up in SC2 make engagements very black and white depending on who lands the FF, Storm, EMPs first.
Playing as Terran I've had times where I pre-empt my opponent with EMPs (post patch size) and proceed to crush him. Why? Because 2,000 dmg worth of shields in addition to Energy loss is irrecoverable. Conversely, playing as Toss, some money Storms and FF's crush a Terran army.
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On December 02 2011 05:01 RavenLoud wrote:Show nested quote +On December 02 2011 04:57 superstartran wrote:On December 02 2011 02:48 aTnClouD wrote:On December 02 2011 02:44 superstartran wrote:On December 01 2011 09:53 aTnClouD wrote:On December 01 2011 09:34 ZenithM wrote:On December 01 2011 09:21 aTnClouD wrote:On December 01 2011 08:55 ZenithM wrote:On December 01 2011 08:24 XRaDiiX wrote:On December 01 2011 07:02 aTnClouD wrote:
Well terran is by an huge amount the hardest race in the game, no doubt. I am not sure if the game is balanced at the current korean highest level but I can see for sure the level of knowledge and mechanics protoss and zerg require is incomparably inferior. Especially protoss. Zerg can be hard aswell but to a very good and experienced mechanical player from scbw there's not much else to learn. This is the reason foreign terrans do bad. They simply don't have a structure and practice with good enough players to keep up with korean terrans so they just lose to the easier to play races. I agree with your post 100% i have a hard time respecting Protoss players as much (at my level) because of how easier IMO personal opinion the Race is . I agree with you that Terran is probably the Hardest Race at the High Level (Top Master, GM) I play ZvT and i love it i feel its balanced and all really well ---PvZ (I don't feel its balanced at my level (Mid Master). I really think Protoss is the Strongest Race at Certain levels (maybe the Strongest possibly at levels a little lower than Nestea,MVP) Although Naniwa has proven this wrong in the Latest MLG. (He beat the two best Players(Beating Nestea Twice in a B03) in world with Protoss) Which actually reinforces your Argument. So with that happening at MLG i really think it brings into attention how strong Protoss really is in terms of balance. (Hero won Dreamhack Winter too (Not to take anything away from that He's an amazing player) Yeah, let's shit on every Protoss player regardless of their actual skill. What you don't understand is that your master gameplay is not comparable to ClouD's gameplay. And I would go as far as to say that ClouD's gameplay is not comparable to Nestea, MVP, and Naniwa (yeah, deal with it, Naniwa is a good player). Goddammit man, these three are training non stop in Korea while ClouD takes his time posting balance whine (twice!) on a trash thread on TL. Who do you think will win the most?? Protoss...obviously. You know top players don't spend every single second of their life practicing. If I post here just because I am used to do so for years and state protoss is way easier to play than terran it doesn't mean I am less dedicated than any of the other players you consider better than me. Actually I've talked to Naniwa recently and he told me he takes his time to do what he likes to do just as much or more than I do. Thing is you don't have to try to shit on my image just because I said a race takes considerably less skill and effort to be played at a foreign high level, because it doesn't change the reality of what I'm saying or the fact every foreign tournament result completely proves my point. Yeah, sorry, I admit I went out of line there. Wasn't trying to imply that you're not good or anything. So what do you propose? Wait for HotS? Straight up buff Terran? Terran still seems pretty strong at the GSL (in Code A today for example, no Protoss won). I don't think we're at a level of imbalance where a much worse player than you can beat you if he plays Protoss (http://sc2ranks.com/ranks/eu you don't lose much btw, gj ;D), so I don't really understand why you complain. And in my book you got a pretty decent run at DH where you beat Naniwa, a protoss. Is it just the feeling when you're playing? That you must do much more than the other guy to win? I say it doesn't matter if you still win, it's that much more satisfying. It's just weird that you, a good player with 76% winrate in EU GM, want to have your race made easier to play. But I mean, I kinda understand in a way, your livelihood depends on it, not mine. I think this game was made wrong for a tons of reasons and I am just frustrated cause I ended up getting the shortest end of the stick. When I see players like Seiplo who can't even explain why they do what they do randomly beating players 10 times better than them at DH and a monster like Kas playing all day long the best players in Europe losing in the groupstage like he did then I can't help but thinking this game is bad and unfair. Of course there are really good protoss players and they get the merit they deserve, but in Europe there's so many joke all in protoss players who just randomly take risks and can win because the race just requires no mechanics (bling or elfi being other good examples) and can be played with overall very poor understanding of RTS. I mean look at Titan he's actually a really good and skilled protoss player, he picked up the game very late and it took him very little time to compete at the highest level in Europe. There's nothing to do right now, this game has been fucked up by the bad pathing that makes units clump too much, the smart casting system and super smart AI a-move units. Also warpgate mechanic is ridicolous and makes me wonder if blizzard balance team has any clue about how RTS games work since the distance between production buildings and where you want to have your units is one of the biggest things a player has to consider in order to perform well. So I'm assuming you raged alot in BW when Protoss players were doing 1a move with 2 base Carrier on every map that they could right? I love how in BW people just simply accepted the fact that Terran players had to work harder for their wins, and yet over here despite the fact that Terran players have dominated both the foreign and international scene in terms of overall tournament wins, that they can't accept the fact that Protoss players might have finally figured out how to actually win for once after getting NUMEROUS amounts of nerfs. I was protoss in brood war and while I always admitted it was a bit easier it still took insane skill, multitasking macro and micro to play protoss at high level while the skill ceiling for protoss in sc2 is just so low even really bad players can touch some of it. It's not fair even for the good protoss players who get to face bad players in their broken mirror and lose to them cause the game is flawed. Is this some kind of a joke? You could beat a FAR significantly better Terran player just by running dumb shit like bulldog reaver drop styles or just simply a-moving when he makes a crucial positional mistake with his Tanks. It took infinitely more skill to ever play Terran than it did to play Protoss in BW, it's just not even anywhere close. Lol calm down with the hyperbole. From what I understand, Cloud is just saying that the skill ceiling for protoss is much lower in SC2 than Sc1, that's all.
It is, I agree. However, the skill ceiling for all the races have been lowered in an effort to make the game more mainstream. The influx of more players has brought life to a lifeless community for quite some time (lifeless as in very small population). I understand the frustrations for a pro player to lose to a supposedly inferior player, however, that happened in BW ALOT, particularly in TvP where just doing silly stuff like fast shuttle drops and DT timings could end the game right then and there for a Terran player.
On December 02 2011 05:02 synkronized wrote:Show nested quote +On December 02 2011 04:41 Iamyournoob wrote:
In SC2 I have the feeling the micro-bility of the races' units differ a lot.
It actually gets to the point where the micro of one race can completely negate any micro efforts from the other races.
Examples:
- Terran/Zerg engages a Protoss early game. Protoss lands very good force fields. The battle will end in the Protoss' favour
and the T/Z can't do anything about it.
- Terran has 6 ghosts, scans ahead and sees aToss army. T cloaks the ghosts and EMPs the whole Toss army, then stims runs in and kills the Protoss. No matter how good you are as Protoss, this "mistake" costs you the game, you can't win the engagement since you can hardly run from a Terran army.
And this is plainly bad. If a good Terran lands good EMPs it is most of the time GG. You can't micro against it. You can't micro against FF, nore Fungal.
On top of this different units benefit differently from micro. Look at the difference between a microed and unmicroed marine/marauder: These units become so much stronger in the hands of a good player.
Why is a Banshee able to kite marines, but Stalker's not? Look at how pathetic Stalkers look when trying to kite Marines.
Due to animation issues microing Stalkers is a farce.
Good point here. The power of spell casters and the way armies clump up in SC2 make engagements very black and white depending on who lands the FF, Storm, EMPs first. Playing as Terran I've had times where I pre-empt my opponent with EMPs (post patch size) and proceed to crush him. Why? Because 2,000 dmg worth of shields in addition to Energy loss is irrecoverable. Conversely, playing as Toss, some money Storms and FF's crush a Terran army.
That's what happens when you make a game more explosive. More exciting to watch at times, although very silly to play.
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Like many others said before, i really dont think there is a fundamental problem with terran. It should be hard but rewarding to play on a high level. I think its safe to assume that protoss pros (Hero/Huk/Naniwa) are equally skilled as terran pros, so effectivness of units should scale in a similiar way with both races. I think this can be done by
- add some macro mechanic to warp gates. i cant imagine blizz will ever remove it, as it is deeply rooted in the race. but why not add a macro function to it, so that good macro will make a bigger difference.
- give protoss units they can micro that are NOT spellcasters. Best example would be the colossus, it is easy to use and deals a ton of damage. So to balance it blizz made it very expensive and vulnerable alone, which forces deathballs. So make the colossus cheaper/more durable/less damage and rewarding to micro. Obviously thats not easy, but with moving speed/move-shoot or else it maybe can be done. Blizzard wont change pathfinding or ai, so i think changing the way certain units behave will be the way to go.
If you look at HotS though, it seems they really didnt get it. They just add more spellcasters, when everybody and their mother tells them that is the last thing toss needed.
Protoss is by no means ezpz now, and there certainly is room for some additional macro mechanics/mirco with terran aswell.
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It sounds like BW. Terran was impossible to play unless you were grandmasters level. There is not a problem with having disparity between difficulty of each race and balance. Just because terran is a more "micro" oriented race, doesn't mean there are any fundamental problems with the race itself. If you ask me the difference in levels of difficulty is not that big of a gap to consider revision. It seems at the pro levels this gap tightens as players from all races have to refine their skills.
If you ask me it is more enjoyable to play a difficult race in diamond/masters level because there is not that many terrans left on these platforms making TvT a rare occurrence than what it was 10 months ago where almost everything was TvT.
The one thing I hate the most is the community bashing on Terrans if not anything. People should give terran players more respect and acknowledgement then following the Artosis fan wagon. Sure Artosis is a great guy, but he is bias as hell and we all know that.
Terran really is a more complete race, players of higher skill caliburs become attracted to this race because of its versatility in every aspect. Thats why we see so many Korean terrans and not as much foreign representation. Its a race that makes you feel great after practicing because you get to do crazy stuff like multiple drop harasses and picking apart players from every angle.
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OMG!
OP, THIS AS A SARCASTIC RESPONSE TO the Protoss myth about having the weakest units, isn't it, ISN'T IT?
Your words,
"Because <micro> makes Terran units theoretically 'stronger' than the other races, Blizzard has implemented many nerfs to the Terran race to compensate for this micro potential."
are in essence exact replicas of words I have seen in a thread on TL or Battle.net about Protoss having weaker units due to the warp in mechanics negating defenders advantage (and thus P being the weaker race and in need of buffs, etc, etc).
Again: ISN'T IT?
('cause it would be so cool if it were. I wonder when zerg will get their fabled Achilles heel)
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On December 02 2011 03:56 Alexstrasas wrote:
I completely agree with what OP said.
The same happens in TvP.
Lets see how much "defensive micro" do you have to do.
- Try to emp the HT so you dont eat storms left and right.
- Kite zealots with marauders
- Dodge storms
- Micro vikings away from the stalkers if they get focused.
- Try to minimize colossus effect.
Failure in any of these will result in a lose right there, emp doesnt land, HT now have enough storm to cover everything, dont kite zealots efficiently ? marauders get wiped, fail do dodge a storm ? All units get in the red, lose too many vikings? Not enough dps on the colossus, colossus burn everything on the ground.
What does the protoss has to do if not aiming for maximum efficiency ? Put zealots in the front, a-move the ball and just focus microing the HT.
Interesting. From a P perspective, we have to
- Split HTs to avoid Snipes (which outrange feedback) and EMPS
- Control observers at multiple points around the battle because Ghosts are cloaking spellcasters
- Spread our units in a wide arc to avoid devastating EMPs on clusters of units
- Position Stalkers so that they can take out Vikings before they are concussed to death by marauders
- Place storms properly: given how easily they are moved out of, Ghosts, and the lack of Khaydarin, each miss is huge
- Micro Colossus away from Vikings if they are getting focused
- Make sure that our flank is covered, because a small Marauder hit squad stimming into undefended Colossi = GG
- Carefully manage our Zealot count and back off when the count is too low
Failure in any of these will probably result in a loss. Have all your HTs EMP'd? GG. Have your stalkers taken out before the Viking count goes down? Free reign on your Colossi. And so on.
It's all about perspective.
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On December 02 2011 06:58 Snaphoo wrote:Show nested quote +On December 02 2011 03:56 Alexstrasas wrote:
I completely agree with what OP said.
The same happens in TvP.
Lets see how much "defensive micro" do you have to do.
- Try to emp the HT so you dont eat storms left and right.
- Kite zealots with marauders
- Dodge storms
- Micro vikings away from the stalkers if they get focused.
- Try to minimize colossus effect.
Failure in any of these will result in a lose right there, emp doesnt land, HT now have enough storm to cover everything, dont kite zealots efficiently ? marauders get wiped, fail do dodge a storm ? All units get in the red, lose too many vikings? Not enough dps on the colossus, colossus burn everything on the ground.
What does the protoss has to do if not aiming for maximum efficiency ? Put zealots in the front, a-move the ball and just focus microing the HT.
Interesting. From a P perspective, we have to - Split HTs to avoid Snipes (which outrange feedback) and EMPS - Control observers at multiple points around the battle because Ghosts are cloaking spellcasters - Spread our units in a wide arc to avoid devastating EMPs on clusters of units - Position Stalkers so that they can take out Vikings before they are concussed to death by marauders - Place storms properly: given how easily they are moved out of, Ghosts, and the lack of Khaydarin, each miss is huge - Micro Colossus away from Vikings if they are getting focused - Make sure that our flank is covered, because a small Marauder hit squad stimming into undefended Colossi = GG - Carefully manage our Zealot count and back off when the count is too low Failure in any of these will probably result in a loss. Have all your HTs EMP'd? GG. Have your stalkers taken out before the Viking count goes down? Free reign on your Colossi. And so on. It's all about perspective.
1. How can your HTs get sniped if they are either behind your army or if you have a spotter obs in front of your army.(which you should always have anyway..I'd rather get EMP'd and storm/colossus laser the bio ball because you will be able to out produce the T)
2.If your spending alot of time microing obs, your playing wrong, again if you have a spotter obs this should be real easy.
3.Terran has to do this as well against storm and colossus, in your case you may still be able to save some units, in our case we die.
4.FF T army pick off vikings, if they dont micro vikings and army then they will take some loses they most likely cant afford.
5.Refer to 4, plus run Colossus back and kite vikings closer to stalkers again if Terran doesnt micro you'll most likely clean up with your colossus and storms.
6.FF helps, and also your obs should give you enough field of vision in the battle.
7.Not sure this is micro more than it is smart decision making. Or just warp some in to the battle?
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On December 02 2011 07:08 Superneenja wrote:Show nested quote +On December 02 2011 06:58 Snaphoo wrote:On December 02 2011 03:56 Alexstrasas wrote:
I completely agree with what OP said.
The same happens in TvP.
Lets see how much "defensive micro" do you have to do.
- Try to emp the HT so you dont eat storms left and right.
- Kite zealots with marauders
- Dodge storms
- Micro vikings away from the stalkers if they get focused.
- Try to minimize colossus effect.
Failure in any of these will result in a lose right there, emp doesnt land, HT now have enough storm to cover everything, dont kite zealots efficiently ? marauders get wiped, fail do dodge a storm ? All units get in the red, lose too many vikings? Not enough dps on the colossus, colossus burn everything on the ground.
What does the protoss has to do if not aiming for maximum efficiency ? Put zealots in the front, a-move the ball and just focus microing the HT.
Interesting. From a P perspective, we have to - Split HTs to avoid Snipes (which outrange feedback) and EMPS - Control observers at multiple points around the battle because Ghosts are cloaking spellcasters - Spread our units in a wide arc to avoid devastating EMPs on clusters of units - Position Stalkers so that they can take out Vikings before they are concussed to death by marauders - Place storms properly: given how easily they are moved out of, Ghosts, and the lack of Khaydarin, each miss is huge - Micro Colossus away from Vikings if they are getting focused - Make sure that our flank is covered, because a small Marauder hit squad stimming into undefended Colossi = GG - Carefully manage our Zealot count and back off when the count is too low Failure in any of these will probably result in a loss. Have all your HTs EMP'd? GG. Have your stalkers taken out before the Viking count goes down? Free reign on your Colossi. And so on. It's all about perspective. 1. How can your HTs get sniped if they are either behind your army or if you have a spotter obs in front of your army.(which you should always have anyway..I'd rather get EMP'd and storm/colossus laser the bio ball because you will be able to out produce the T) 2.If your spending alot of time microing obs, your playing wrong, again if you have a spotter obs this should be real easy. 3.Terran has to do this as well against storm and colossus, in your case you may still be able to save some units, in our case we die. 4.FF T army pick off vikings, if they dont micro vikings and army then they will take some loses they most likely cant afford. 5.Refer to 4, plus run Colossus back and kite vikings closer to stalkers again if Terran doesnt micro you'll most likely clean up with your colossus and storms. 6.FF helps, and also your obs should give you enough field of vision in the battle. 7.Not sure this is micro more than it is smart decision making. Or just warp some in to the battle?
Wait, so every counter... HAS IT'S OWN COUNTER? INCONCEIVABLE!
We could keep going around in circles all day on this without getting anywhere. If every point has a counter point, that sounds, what's the word... balanced?
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Please dont turn this into a 'wah wah i have to do SO much or i lose' thread. Listing stuff to do and making them sound difficult while implicitly offending the other races aren't helping the discussion one bit. The talking point was: does the huge gain from near perfect micro of terran units, and the continuous nerfs suffered from this, hurt us mere mortals playing Terran when we combat other mere mortals who happen to play other races..
If you bring the discussion of snipe having longer range than FB and FB having no animation and being way easier to target, i dont think you understand the subject.
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Saw Goody laddering as protoss today.
Not sure if it's just for fun, someone else playing, or if he's actually considering switching races.
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On December 02 2011 07:17 TrickyGilligan wrote:Show nested quote +On December 02 2011 07:08 Superneenja wrote:On December 02 2011 06:58 Snaphoo wrote:On December 02 2011 03:56 Alexstrasas wrote:
I completely agree with what OP said.
The same happens in TvP.
Lets see how much "defensive micro" do you have to do.
- Try to emp the HT so you dont eat storms left and right.
- Kite zealots with marauders
- Dodge storms
- Micro vikings away from the stalkers if they get focused.
- Try to minimize colossus effect.
Failure in any of these will result in a lose right there, emp doesnt land, HT now have enough storm to cover everything, dont kite zealots efficiently ? marauders get wiped, fail do dodge a storm ? All units get in the red, lose too many vikings? Not enough dps on the colossus, colossus burn everything on the ground.
What does the protoss has to do if not aiming for maximum efficiency ? Put zealots in the front, a-move the ball and just focus microing the HT.
Interesting. From a P perspective, we have to - Split HTs to avoid Snipes (which outrange feedback) and EMPS - Control observers at multiple points around the battle because Ghosts are cloaking spellcasters - Spread our units in a wide arc to avoid devastating EMPs on clusters of units - Position Stalkers so that they can take out Vikings before they are concussed to death by marauders - Place storms properly: given how easily they are moved out of, Ghosts, and the lack of Khaydarin, each miss is huge - Micro Colossus away from Vikings if they are getting focused - Make sure that our flank is covered, because a small Marauder hit squad stimming into undefended Colossi = GG - Carefully manage our Zealot count and back off when the count is too low Failure in any of these will probably result in a loss. Have all your HTs EMP'd? GG. Have your stalkers taken out before the Viking count goes down? Free reign on your Colossi. And so on. It's all about perspective. 1. How can your HTs get sniped if they are either behind your army or if you have a spotter obs in front of your army.(which you should always have anyway..I'd rather get EMP'd and storm/colossus laser the bio ball because you will be able to out produce the T) 2.If your spending alot of time microing obs, your playing wrong, again if you have a spotter obs this should be real easy. 3.Terran has to do this as well against storm and colossus, in your case you may still be able to save some units, in our case we die. 4.FF T army pick off vikings, if they dont micro vikings and army then they will take some loses they most likely cant afford. 5.Refer to 4, plus run Colossus back and kite vikings closer to stalkers again if Terran doesnt micro you'll most likely clean up with your colossus and storms. 6.FF helps, and also your obs should give you enough field of vision in the battle. 7.Not sure this is micro more than it is smart decision making. Or just warp some in to the battle? Wait, so every counter... HAS IT'S OWN COUNTER? INCONCEIVABLE! We could keep going around in circles all day on this without getting anywhere. If every point has a counter point, that sounds, what's the word... balanced?
Not sure if your sarcasm is using "counter" in the right context here, but just for giggles give me some counter points to the micro issues T have brought up here.
For example whats the counter point to focus firing banelings with tanks while splitting marines?
Interested to hear.
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On December 02 2011 07:32 Superneenja wrote:Show nested quote +On December 02 2011 07:17 TrickyGilligan wrote:On December 02 2011 07:08 Superneenja wrote:On December 02 2011 06:58 Snaphoo wrote:On December 02 2011 03:56 Alexstrasas wrote:
I completely agree with what OP said.
The same happens in TvP.
Lets see how much "defensive micro" do you have to do.
- Try to emp the HT so you dont eat storms left and right.
- Kite zealots with marauders
- Dodge storms
- Micro vikings away from the stalkers if they get focused.
- Try to minimize colossus effect.
Failure in any of these will result in a lose right there, emp doesnt land, HT now have enough storm to cover everything, dont kite zealots efficiently ? marauders get wiped, fail do dodge a storm ? All units get in the red, lose too many vikings? Not enough dps on the colossus, colossus burn everything on the ground.
What does the protoss has to do if not aiming for maximum efficiency ? Put zealots in the front, a-move the ball and just focus microing the HT.
Interesting. From a P perspective, we have to - Split HTs to avoid Snipes (which outrange feedback) and EMPS - Control observers at multiple points around the battle because Ghosts are cloaking spellcasters - Spread our units in a wide arc to avoid devastating EMPs on clusters of units - Position Stalkers so that they can take out Vikings before they are concussed to death by marauders - Place storms properly: given how easily they are moved out of, Ghosts, and the lack of Khaydarin, each miss is huge - Micro Colossus away from Vikings if they are getting focused - Make sure that our flank is covered, because a small Marauder hit squad stimming into undefended Colossi = GG - Carefully manage our Zealot count and back off when the count is too low Failure in any of these will probably result in a loss. Have all your HTs EMP'd? GG. Have your stalkers taken out before the Viking count goes down? Free reign on your Colossi. And so on. It's all about perspective. 1. How can your HTs get sniped if they are either behind your army or if you have a spotter obs in front of your army.(which you should always have anyway..I'd rather get EMP'd and storm/colossus laser the bio ball because you will be able to out produce the T) 2.If your spending alot of time microing obs, your playing wrong, again if you have a spotter obs this should be real easy. 3.Terran has to do this as well against storm and colossus, in your case you may still be able to save some units, in our case we die. 4.FF T army pick off vikings, if they dont micro vikings and army then they will take some loses they most likely cant afford. 5.Refer to 4, plus run Colossus back and kite vikings closer to stalkers again if Terran doesnt micro you'll most likely clean up with your colossus and storms. 6.FF helps, and also your obs should give you enough field of vision in the battle. 7.Not sure this is micro more than it is smart decision making. Or just warp some in to the battle? Wait, so every counter... HAS IT'S OWN COUNTER? INCONCEIVABLE! We could keep going around in circles all day on this without getting anywhere. If every point has a counter point, that sounds, what's the word... balanced? Not sure if your sarcasm is using "counter" in the right context here, but just for giggles give me some counter points to the micro issues T have brought up here. For example whats the counter point to focus firing banelings with tanks while splitting marines? Interested to hear.
Attack on creep and don't mindlessly roll banelings into tank lines? Baneling drops while poking with zerglings to get tanks to hit their own marines? Medivac sniping?
I've said before many times that pointing out random micro things is a pointless argument. Creep spread is the most essential and neglected part of Zerg micro.
If you want to make a point STOP POSTING RANDOM MICRO TACTICS and start posting stats that indicate that gold-diamond terrans are struggling compared to masters terrans compared to grandmasters terrans compared to pro terrans.
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Attack on creep and don't mindlessly roll banelings into tank lines? Baneling drops while poking with zerglings to get tanks to hit their own marines? Medivac sniping?
I've said before many times that pointing out random micro things is a pointless argument. Creep spread is the most essential and neglected part of Zerg micro.
If you want to make a point STOP POSTING RANDOM MICRO TACTICS and start posting stats that indicate that gold-diamond terrans are struggling compared to masters terrans compared to grandmasters terrans compared to pro terrans.
I don't think anyone really cares that the lower leagues are struggling. Why is there low league Terran QQ all of a sudden?
Consider that the same thing happened to zerg a year ago when everyone was complaining how hard it was for zerg to keep up with all the zerggy mechanics: inject/creep spread. To this day, lower league zergs still have trouble hitting inject timing and spreading creep, while the upper echelons don't have any trouble.
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On December 02 2011 08:07 cLutZ wrote:Show nested quote +On December 02 2011 07:32 Superneenja wrote:On December 02 2011 07:17 TrickyGilligan wrote:On December 02 2011 07:08 Superneenja wrote:On December 02 2011 06:58 Snaphoo wrote:On December 02 2011 03:56 Alexstrasas wrote:
I completely agree with what OP said.
The same happens in TvP.
Lets see how much "defensive micro" do you have to do.
- Try to emp the HT so you dont eat storms left and right.
- Kite zealots with marauders
- Dodge storms
- Micro vikings away from the stalkers if they get focused.
- Try to minimize colossus effect.
Failure in any of these will result in a lose right there, emp doesnt land, HT now have enough storm to cover everything, dont kite zealots efficiently ? marauders get wiped, fail do dodge a storm ? All units get in the red, lose too many vikings? Not enough dps on the colossus, colossus burn everything on the ground.
What does the protoss has to do if not aiming for maximum efficiency ? Put zealots in the front, a-move the ball and just focus microing the HT.
Interesting. From a P perspective, we have to - Split HTs to avoid Snipes (which outrange feedback) and EMPS - Control observers at multiple points around the battle because Ghosts are cloaking spellcasters - Spread our units in a wide arc to avoid devastating EMPs on clusters of units - Position Stalkers so that they can take out Vikings before they are concussed to death by marauders - Place storms properly: given how easily they are moved out of, Ghosts, and the lack of Khaydarin, each miss is huge - Micro Colossus away from Vikings if they are getting focused - Make sure that our flank is covered, because a small Marauder hit squad stimming into undefended Colossi = GG - Carefully manage our Zealot count and back off when the count is too low Failure in any of these will probably result in a loss. Have all your HTs EMP'd? GG. Have your stalkers taken out before the Viking count goes down? Free reign on your Colossi. And so on. It's all about perspective. 1. How can your HTs get sniped if they are either behind your army or if you have a spotter obs in front of your army.(which you should always have anyway..I'd rather get EMP'd and storm/colossus laser the bio ball because you will be able to out produce the T) 2.If your spending alot of time microing obs, your playing wrong, again if you have a spotter obs this should be real easy. 3.Terran has to do this as well against storm and colossus, in your case you may still be able to save some units, in our case we die. 4.FF T army pick off vikings, if they dont micro vikings and army then they will take some loses they most likely cant afford. 5.Refer to 4, plus run Colossus back and kite vikings closer to stalkers again if Terran doesnt micro you'll most likely clean up with your colossus and storms. 6.FF helps, and also your obs should give you enough field of vision in the battle. 7.Not sure this is micro more than it is smart decision making. Or just warp some in to the battle? Wait, so every counter... HAS IT'S OWN COUNTER? INCONCEIVABLE! We could keep going around in circles all day on this without getting anywhere. If every point has a counter point, that sounds, what's the word... balanced? Not sure if your sarcasm is using "counter" in the right context here, but just for giggles give me some counter points to the micro issues T have brought up here. For example whats the counter point to focus firing banelings with tanks while splitting marines? Interested to hear. Attack on creep and don't mindlessly roll banelings into tank lines? Baneling drops while poking with zerglings to get tanks to hit their own marines? Medivac sniping? I've said before many times that pointing out random micro things is a pointless argument. Creep spread is the most essential and neglected part of Zerg micro. If you want to make a point STOP POSTING RANDOM MICRO TACTICS and start posting stats that indicate that gold-diamond terrans are struggling compared to masters terrans compared to grandmasters terrans compared to pro terrans.
Maybe you should read the perspective I was speaking about (As terran what's the alternative to what i stated above). Also I really don't care what you say so you can keep saying it over and over if you wish. Third, bold means your serious Oooo... and i'm really not sure where to get the stats, but the fact that terran is the least race played in these leagues maybe a good indicator(Not sure on this but i think it was mentioned before on this post)
Also not sure if anyone knows, but have any pro Z or P players switched to T in SC2? Just curious.
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Its interesting that some people compare this problem to Broodwar and say it was the same. I never played BW competitively, but I did watch some pro games.
I don't know why people say "It was like this in BW so it doesnt matter if its like this in SC2". This is perhaps one of the most important shortcomings of broodwar... wouldn't we want to theoretically improve on the shortcomings of the previous game, not exacerbate it? SC2 is a much more global game than BW, which necessitates that Blizzard should put more emphasis into trying to balance the game at multiple skill levels than Broodwar.
Also, I noticed someone made an interesting post comparing SC2 with BW and WC3, arguing that SC2's macro is easier than BW but harder than WC3. This means that inherently players should have more time to focus on microing in SC2 than in SC1 - but this thread argues that it is not evenly spread. Furthermore, the micro of WC3 is in no means attainable in SC2 because in the late game you're faced with battles of up to a hundred units, whereas in WC3 battles usually had 20-30 units in major engagements.
I do feel like Blizzard tried to find a middleground between the macro intensity of BW and the micro intensity of WC3. I'm not saying SC2 shouldn't be a whole new game - in my mind it should - but it definitely seems to be what they're punting for. However, by adopting a much larger audience in SC2 they need to try and balance the game at more levels, and currently I don't believe that is happening. Yes, the game should be balanced primarly around the top players, but it seems pointless to argue noone else matters - especially when this is the lions share of players. Even foreign pro-gamers seem to be experiencing this problem, as Cloud and Beastyqt have testified to in this thread.
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I agree quite a lot with the point the OP is making, terran seems to benefit a lot more from excellent micro than Protoss or Zerg, which led to nerfs (which were justified) and made the game a lot harder for non Korean GM terrans.
That said, I really think that the OP is looking at the problem in the wrong way. Terran is fine. It's more that Protoss and Zerg should scale better on unit control and have more micro options.
The thing is that micro can be divided in two categories, unit control (Stutterstepping, splitting units etc.) and spellcasting (storm/emp/fungal). Zerg and protoss micro is essentially spellcasting, and with the addition of smartcasting it has become pretty easy.The huge strength of terran comes from the fact that bio units benefit a LOT from unit-control micro, while Protoss and Zerg unit cant do much more than amove. This is the thing that needs to be changed, Protoss and Zerg units need to reward good control more and punish bad control more.
Making terran easier at low levels and nerfing scaling on unit-control (for example by increasing the shoot animation time of marines) of Terran units would be really bad for the game, since a competitive game has to reward skill as much as possible.
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Terran has the hardest execution and the easiest decision making. Execution is where skill ceiling arises from.
A related piece of evidence is to look at pro gamers who develope wrist issues. The is a MUCH higher rate of players that have wrist issues that play terran. I can name TLO, Thorzain, and MVP as ones that INSTANTLY come to mind as having wrist issues.
Terran micro and macro is very straight forward yet requires a few more clicks to accomplish. Marine spitting, sending SCVs back after making buildings, the constant production nature of terran vs the powering nature of toss/zerg, all lead to a few more clicks per gameflow cycle.
This is why in korea we see Terran as the dominate race and in the rest of the world we see toss/zerg do so much better than in korea.
When one race has the its best unit as its most basic unit, and that unit is its best unit because of how much micro can increase the cost effectiveness of it, you are going to have a race that has less decisions to make but much more execution built in (t1 builds fast so faster macro cycles and the apm you can put into marines is almost the highest amount in the game AND it makes them more and more cost effective).
This is all extremely relative to where you play skill wise though. If people do not have near perfect decision making or near perfect execution at the level you play at then this does not matter.
This is also not a 100% bad thing, it leads to the extremely different feels and mindsets that the different races have. I love that part of sc2.
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On December 02 2011 06:58 Snaphoo wrote:Show nested quote +On December 02 2011 03:56 Alexstrasas wrote:
I completely agree with what OP said.
The same happens in TvP.
Lets see how much "defensive micro" do you have to do.
- Try to emp the HT so you dont eat storms left and right.
- Kite zealots with marauders
- Dodge storms
- Micro vikings away from the stalkers if they get focused.
- Try to minimize colossus effect.
Failure in any of these will result in a lose right there, emp doesnt land, HT now have enough storm to cover everything, dont kite zealots efficiently ? marauders get wiped, fail do dodge a storm ? All units get in the red, lose too many vikings? Not enough dps on the colossus, colossus burn everything on the ground.
What does the protoss has to do if not aiming for maximum efficiency ? Put zealots in the front, a-move the ball and just focus microing the HT.
Interesting. From a P perspective, we have to - Split HTs to avoid Snipes (which outrange feedback) and EMPS - Control observers at multiple points around the battle because Ghosts are cloaking spellcasters - Spread our units in a wide arc to avoid devastating EMPs on clusters of units - Position Stalkers so that they can take out Vikings before they are concussed to death by marauders- Place storms properly: given how easily they are moved out of, Ghosts, and the lack of Khaydarin, each miss is huge - Micro Colossus away from Vikings if they are getting focused - Make sure that our flank is covered, because a small Marauder hit squad stimming into undefended Colossi = GG - Carefully manage our Zealot count and back off when the count is too low Failure in any of these will probably result in a loss. Have all your HTs EMP'd? GG. Have your stalkers taken out before the Viking count goes down? Free reign on your Colossi. And so on. It's all about perspective.
I never quite understood that. Lore-wise and gameplay-wise, Stalkers are machines, non-bio. They are, essentially, dead things. How come they suffer the effect of concussive shells? O_o'
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On December 02 2011 08:44 Avan wrote:Show nested quote +On December 02 2011 06:58 Snaphoo wrote:On December 02 2011 03:56 Alexstrasas wrote:
I completely agree with what OP said.
The same happens in TvP.
Lets see how much "defensive micro" do you have to do.
- Try to emp the HT so you dont eat storms left and right.
- Kite zealots with marauders
- Dodge storms
- Micro vikings away from the stalkers if they get focused.
- Try to minimize colossus effect.
Failure in any of these will result in a lose right there, emp doesnt land, HT now have enough storm to cover everything, dont kite zealots efficiently ? marauders get wiped, fail do dodge a storm ? All units get in the red, lose too many vikings? Not enough dps on the colossus, colossus burn everything on the ground.
What does the protoss has to do if not aiming for maximum efficiency ? Put zealots in the front, a-move the ball and just focus microing the HT.
Interesting. From a P perspective, we have to - Split HTs to avoid Snipes (which outrange feedback) and EMPS - Control observers at multiple points around the battle because Ghosts are cloaking spellcasters - Spread our units in a wide arc to avoid devastating EMPs on clusters of units - Position Stalkers so that they can take out Vikings before they are concussed to death by marauders- Place storms properly: given how easily they are moved out of, Ghosts, and the lack of Khaydarin, each miss is huge - Micro Colossus away from Vikings if they are getting focused - Make sure that our flank is covered, because a small Marauder hit squad stimming into undefended Colossi = GG - Carefully manage our Zealot count and back off when the count is too low Failure in any of these will probably result in a loss. Have all your HTs EMP'd? GG. Have your stalkers taken out before the Viking count goes down? Free reign on your Colossi. And so on. It's all about perspective. I never quite understood that. Lore-wise and gameplay-wise, Stalkers are machines, non-bio. They are, essentially, dead things. How come they suffer the effect of concussive shells? O_o'
They are resurrected (salvaged? xD) warriors using a robotic body, like dragoons.
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What really gets on my nerves is that poeple used to (and occasionally still do) call Terran the "ez race", when it is just the opposite. You have to be aggresive as Terran; the ball is in your court. I'm not saying that Protoss and Zerg are ez, but calling Terran the "amove race" is just plain ignorant because Terran is the most micro-intensive.
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EPT
