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On December 02 2011 01:46 red4ce wrote:
I can't help but wonder why people are so adamant in their belief that the game is balanced and foreigner terrans are just worse than their zerg and protoss counterparts, rather than considering the possibility of Korean terrans being better than Korean zergs and protoss. After all, Koreans came into the game biased towards Terran thanks to the legacy of Boxer, Nada, Oov and Flash. Foreigners went into SC2 as a blank slate so their talent distribution into the 3 races should have been more random and equal. I'm not advocating one position over the other and there's probably no way to ever tell which is true. I'm just noting that whenever someone posts or makes a thread suggesting Korean terrans are better the response is a quick 'no' but when threads like this one happen people respond 'learn to play the game bro.'
Well, we have learned that when Korean Terrans dominate is because of imba, nothing to do with skill. When "foreigner" Terrans underachieve is because of skill, nothing to do with balance.
We have also learned that Terrans world wide, including ex BW legends, are stupid and should just play mech in TvP.
Balance discussions work in mysterious ways 
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On December 02 2011 02:03 cLutZ wrote:Show nested quote +On December 02 2011 01:28 Umpteen wrote:
Just for fun...
Based on the Wiki data (which is obviously quite coarse, so pinches of salt all around):
T plays 0.91 x average games per hour
P plays 1.15 x average games per hour
Z plays 0.96 x average games per hour
What might this mean?
Well, in general, fewer, longer games mean less repetition within the same practice time, and could result in slower improvement.
Consider some scenarios:
Foreign players A and B play terran and protoss respectively for the same time per day. B manages 5 games, A only 4.
Korean players X and Y practice for much longer each day. Y manages 10 games, X only 8.
Factoring in diminishing returns, Y's two extra games could lead to less of a skill gap with Z than exists between A and B.
If the Korean players actively try to keep up in games - if Terrans practice for longer to compensate - the gap would close further.
Now suppose the Terran strategies employed in Korea are not the same as elsewhere. Suppose TvX is more aggressive and short-lived, such that the differences in average game length outside the GSL are even more pronounced than the data we have (which a very nice post above me suggests). That would retard the practice of foreign Terrans still further.
TL;DR: There are potential contributing factors the OP overlooks, preferring to attribute the entire Korean/Foreign Terran discrepancy (such as it is) to a single cause: the advantages of microing Terran units. Given that there is hardly ever just one reason for anything, I don't think his hypothesis is well supported. Isn't that just likely because it is nearly impossible for a Terran to be cheesed, and most terran early pushes are more harrassing than game ending? Terran strategy is turtle>harass>leverage into victory. That is just the dynamic that terran creates. Protoss is different and Zerg is different, both are easier to cheese for a crippling blow, both have cheeses that will end with a GG. Plus, games played isn't very valuable because the first 5 minutes of each game is usually wasted doing the same thing. Longer games = better practice.
Not necessarily. The game changes as it goes on. Longer games are undoubtedly the best practice for long games, but possibly not for middling or short games, because there's more for the brain to absorb. If I play twenty half-hour games and you execute the same cheese twenty times, who'll be finished quicker and who'll have crisper execution?
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On December 02 2011 02:14 Umpteen wrote:Show nested quote +On December 02 2011 02:03 cLutZ wrote:On December 02 2011 01:28 Umpteen wrote:
Just for fun...
Based on the Wiki data (which is obviously quite coarse, so pinches of salt all around):
T plays 0.91 x average games per hour
P plays 1.15 x average games per hour
Z plays 0.96 x average games per hour
What might this mean?
Well, in general, fewer, longer games mean less repetition within the same practice time, and could result in slower improvement.
Consider some scenarios:
Foreign players A and B play terran and protoss respectively for the same time per day. B manages 5 games, A only 4.
Korean players X and Y practice for much longer each day. Y manages 10 games, X only 8.
Factoring in diminishing returns, Y's two extra games could lead to less of a skill gap with Z than exists between A and B.
If the Korean players actively try to keep up in games - if Terrans practice for longer to compensate - the gap would close further.
Now suppose the Terran strategies employed in Korea are not the same as elsewhere. Suppose TvX is more aggressive and short-lived, such that the differences in average game length outside the GSL are even more pronounced than the data we have (which a very nice post above me suggests). That would retard the practice of foreign Terrans still further.
TL;DR: There are potential contributing factors the OP overlooks, preferring to attribute the entire Korean/Foreign Terran discrepancy (such as it is) to a single cause: the advantages of microing Terran units. Given that there is hardly ever just one reason for anything, I don't think his hypothesis is well supported. Isn't that just likely because it is nearly impossible for a Terran to be cheesed, and most terran early pushes are more harrassing than game ending? Terran strategy is turtle>harass>leverage into victory. That is just the dynamic that terran creates. Protoss is different and Zerg is different, both are easier to cheese for a crippling blow, both have cheeses that will end with a GG. Plus, games played isn't very valuable because the first 5 minutes of each game is usually wasted doing the same thing. Longer games = better practice. Not necessarily. The game changes as it goes on. Longer games are undoubtedly the best practice for long games, but possibly not for middling or short games, because there's more for the brain to absorb. If I play twenty half-hour games and you execute the same cheese twenty times, who'll be finished quicker and who'll have crisper execution?
Very true, but mechanics break down so often in long games that most Players (even I would say most pros) would probably be able to win 20-30% more games just by keeping macro and unit spacing at 80% of their early game level.
There was a 40+ min game I just watched, TVZ, it was Happy vs. X. The terran was clearly dominating the game the first 25 mins, but couldn't break through. He won several battles that should have been decisive with sick ghost micro , but didn't remax fast enough or with the right comp and eventually got starved out because the zerg had mediocre creep spread (it wasn't even good, just adequate enough to be mobile). If the T's macro was operating at 80% (probably even 60%) at the 30 min mark he would have won, and won handily.
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OP is completely right on the threshold thing.
Races require different player skill levels at different game skill levels.
It was like this in Brood War, and it is like this in StarCraft 2. I understand the OP's concern, but the only way to balance the game without taking anything away from the depth of it - is to balance at top level.
This is just the way it is, and always will be.
Threshold examples:
An example from BW is that Protoss is the easiest race to play for a good while from the bottom, but the closer you get to the top, the more it flattens out.
These levels are far from layed out in SC2 because the game is still so young and it changes rapidly all the time (with patch changes). It would seem Zerg is the hardest race a distance from the bottom, close to the top Zerg and Protoss seems to be stronger than Terran, and at the very top it would seem the races are somewhat balanced.
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On December 01 2011 15:30 tomatriedes wrote:Show nested quote +On December 01 2011 07:28 aTnClouD wrote:On December 01 2011 07:09 Roxy wrote:On December 01 2011 07:02 aTnClouD wrote:
Well terran is by an huge amount the hardest race in the game, no doubt. I am not sure if the game is balanced at the current korean highest level but I can see for sure the level of knowledge and mechanics protoss and zerg require is incomparably inferior. Especially protoss. Zerg can be hard aswell but to a very good and experienced mechanical player from scbw there's not much else to learn. This is the reason foreign terrans do bad. They simply don't have a structure and practice with good enough players to keep up with korean terrans so they just lose to the easier to play races. Ya, god forbid admitting to the possibility that you are just bad. User was temp banned for this post. I know I shouldn't answer to this taunt but even if I was really just bad there's no other explaination to the decline of the terran race outside korea. I've tried playing protoss multiple times in the past (in the only matchup I know for SC2 protoss, PvT) and I could easily beat some of the top terrans in Europe by just camping, chronoboosting my upgrades and waiting on 3 bases. That's basically what every protoss does now and the amount of skill and multitasking it takes is so ridicolously low I feel like crying whenever I think I could have just kept playing protoss when SC2 started. If warpgate was not in the game it would be much different, not having to deal with walking distances and smartcasting makes everything way way WAY easier. It's not too late, seriously. Morrow changed races relatively late and has done well and TLO has just switched. If protoss is really that much easier then please prove it to everyone by switching and winning some top tournaments. I'm seriously not taunting you- I would love to see a pro actually have the balls to do that. I think we would be able to settle this debate once and for all if that happened.
I was thinking about it, but it would take around 2-3 weeks to get to the level I am with terran and I will probably try to switch when I have less tournaments and I am at top form so I wouldn't lose my form from not playing terran 2-3 weeks.
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On December 02 2011 02:32 sonnert wrote:
OP is completely right on the threshold thing.
Races require different player skill levels at different game skill levels.
It was like this in Brood War, and it is like this in StarCraft 2. I understand the OP's concern, but the only way to balance the game without taking anything away from the depth of it - is to balance at top level.
This is just the way it is, and always will be.
Threshold examples:
An example from BW is that Protoss is the easiest race to play for a good while from the bottom, but the closer you get to the top, the more it flattens out.
These levels are far from layed out in SC2 because the game is still so young and it changes rapidly all the time (with patch changes). It would seem Zerg is the hardest race a distance from the bottom, close to the top Zerg and Protoss seems to be stronger than Terran, and at the very top it would seem the races are somewhat balanced.
We know it was like that in Brood War. In my opinion, though, the difference was smaller in BW. Yes, Terran was harder from the bottom in BW, but not as much as it is harder in SC2 (just to throw around some numbers in order to make my point - in BW it was like T 100 and P 85 and in SC2 is more like T 100 and P 70). Mainly, because of how the skill ceiling has dropped for P. Besides, just because it was so in BW, it doesn't mean it also has to be this way in SC2. That's why we are here, because we want it to level up more in HotS.
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On December 02 2011 01:58 Kwanny wrote:Show nested quote +On December 02 2011 01:43 BBQSAC wrote:
@ WaSa
I agree with what you are saying, Terran are definitely single player oriented and they are kinda the crutch of the fluff (or should i say lore as this isn't a GW game) which is why I think they are a jack of all trades. The expansions hopefully will sort out supply call-downs and just how good marines are all game long, but mostly I think some tweaks and changes to toss and zerg to increase their stylistic options will be better over all for the game. I know, not a balance thread, but terran economically, supply depots firstly cost more than overlords or pylons, and they take longer to build, aswell. Another note, all terran buildings basically cost 200 minerals + some gas (and longer to build), compared to 150 for each gateway. That's probably why there are still supply drops, and mules.
It doesn't seem right to say that Terran buildings cost more because of lost SCV mining time seeing as Zerg lose the drone forever and need to replace it which means more larvae need to be spent on drones. It isn't as though Terran CC's are unable to build SCVs while barracks are building. By your logic a spawning pool costs a minimum of infinity + two zerglings. Terran also have mules which add to mineral gathering much more than build time detracts from it, therefore I would have to say there is no disadvantage with regards to fundamental economic mechanisms. As for marines, especially with stim + combat shield, WTF? Which would you prefer 10 chargelots, 20 marines or 40 cracklings? The marine, I think, needs to be a little less incredible as the OP has a point in that controlled marines devastate most of the stuff that's supposed to kill them and it doesn't need to be gosu control by any means. I have a friend that is as bronze as you can get and has been since season one and he very competently deals with banes and zealots and the like against much higher level opponents because the micro is not hard.
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On December 01 2011 09:53 aTnClouD wrote:Show nested quote +On December 01 2011 09:34 ZenithM wrote:On December 01 2011 09:21 aTnClouD wrote:On December 01 2011 08:55 ZenithM wrote:On December 01 2011 08:24 XRaDiiX wrote:On December 01 2011 07:02 aTnClouD wrote:
Well terran is by an huge amount the hardest race in the game, no doubt. I am not sure if the game is balanced at the current korean highest level but I can see for sure the level of knowledge and mechanics protoss and zerg require is incomparably inferior. Especially protoss. Zerg can be hard aswell but to a very good and experienced mechanical player from scbw there's not much else to learn. This is the reason foreign terrans do bad. They simply don't have a structure and practice with good enough players to keep up with korean terrans so they just lose to the easier to play races. I agree with your post 100% i have a hard time respecting Protoss players as much (at my level) because of how easier IMO personal opinion the Race is . I agree with you that Terran is probably the Hardest Race at the High Level (Top Master, GM) I play ZvT and i love it i feel its balanced and all really well ---PvZ (I don't feel its balanced at my level (Mid Master). I really think Protoss is the Strongest Race at Certain levels (maybe the Strongest possibly at levels a little lower than Nestea,MVP) Although Naniwa has proven this wrong in the Latest MLG. (He beat the two best Players(Beating Nestea Twice in a B03) in world with Protoss) Which actually reinforces your Argument. So with that happening at MLG i really think it brings into attention how strong Protoss really is in terms of balance. (Hero won Dreamhack Winter too (Not to take anything away from that He's an amazing player) Yeah, let's shit on every Protoss player regardless of their actual skill. What you don't understand is that your master gameplay is not comparable to ClouD's gameplay. And I would go as far as to say that ClouD's gameplay is not comparable to Nestea, MVP, and Naniwa (yeah, deal with it, Naniwa is a good player). Goddammit man, these three are training non stop in Korea while ClouD takes his time posting balance whine (twice!) on a trash thread on TL. Who do you think will win the most?? Protoss...obviously. You know top players don't spend every single second of their life practicing. If I post here just because I am used to do so for years and state protoss is way easier to play than terran it doesn't mean I am less dedicated than any of the other players you consider better than me. Actually I've talked to Naniwa recently and he told me he takes his time to do what he likes to do just as much or more than I do. Thing is you don't have to try to shit on my image just because I said a race takes considerably less skill and effort to be played at a foreign high level, because it doesn't change the reality of what I'm saying or the fact every foreign tournament result completely proves my point. Yeah, sorry, I admit I went out of line there. Wasn't trying to imply that you're not good or anything. So what do you propose? Wait for HotS? Straight up buff Terran? Terran still seems pretty strong at the GSL (in Code A today for example, no Protoss won). I don't think we're at a level of imbalance where a much worse player than you can beat you if he plays Protoss (http://sc2ranks.com/ranks/eu you don't lose much btw, gj ;D), so I don't really understand why you complain. And in my book you got a pretty decent run at DH where you beat Naniwa, a protoss. Is it just the feeling when you're playing? That you must do much more than the other guy to win? I say it doesn't matter if you still win, it's that much more satisfying. It's just weird that you, a good player with 76% winrate in EU GM, want to have your race made easier to play. But I mean, I kinda understand in a way, your livelihood depends on it, not mine. I think this game was made wrong for a tons of reasons and I am just frustrated cause I ended up getting the shortest end of the stick. When I see players like Seiplo who can't even explain why they do what they do randomly beating players 10 times better than them at DH and a monster like Kas playing all day long the best players in Europe losing in the groupstage like he did then I can't help but thinking this game is bad and unfair. Of course there are really good protoss players and they get the merit they deserve, but in Europe there's so many joke all in protoss players who just randomly take risks and can win because the race just requires no mechanics (bling or elfi being other good examples) and can be played with overall very poor understanding of RTS. I mean look at Titan he's actually a really good and skilled protoss player, he picked up the game very late and it took him very little time to compete at the highest level in Europe. There's nothing to do right now, this game has been fucked up by the bad pathing that makes units clump too much, the smart casting system and super smart AI a-move units. Also warpgate mechanic is ridicolous and makes me wonder if blizzard balance team has any clue about how RTS games work since the distance between production buildings and where you want to have your units is one of the biggest things a player has to consider in order to perform well.
So I'm assuming you raged alot in BW when Protoss players were doing 1a move with 2 base Carrier on every map that they could right?
I love how in BW people just simply accepted the fact that Terran players had to work harder for their wins, and yet over here despite the fact that Terran players have dominated both the foreign and international scene in terms of overall tournament wins, that they can't accept the fact that Protoss players might have finally figured out how to actually win for once after getting NUMEROUS amounts of nerfs.
I'm not saying you don't have a point, but in BW people simply accepted the fact that playing Protoss was a hell of alot easier than the other races. And really, it was. You had so many cheesy strats at your disposal it was hilarious.
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On December 02 2011 02:44 superstartran wrote:Show nested quote +On December 01 2011 09:53 aTnClouD wrote:On December 01 2011 09:34 ZenithM wrote:On December 01 2011 09:21 aTnClouD wrote:On December 01 2011 08:55 ZenithM wrote:On December 01 2011 08:24 XRaDiiX wrote:On December 01 2011 07:02 aTnClouD wrote:
Well terran is by an huge amount the hardest race in the game, no doubt. I am not sure if the game is balanced at the current korean highest level but I can see for sure the level of knowledge and mechanics protoss and zerg require is incomparably inferior. Especially protoss. Zerg can be hard aswell but to a very good and experienced mechanical player from scbw there's not much else to learn. This is the reason foreign terrans do bad. They simply don't have a structure and practice with good enough players to keep up with korean terrans so they just lose to the easier to play races. I agree with your post 100% i have a hard time respecting Protoss players as much (at my level) because of how easier IMO personal opinion the Race is . I agree with you that Terran is probably the Hardest Race at the High Level (Top Master, GM) I play ZvT and i love it i feel its balanced and all really well ---PvZ (I don't feel its balanced at my level (Mid Master). I really think Protoss is the Strongest Race at Certain levels (maybe the Strongest possibly at levels a little lower than Nestea,MVP) Although Naniwa has proven this wrong in the Latest MLG. (He beat the two best Players(Beating Nestea Twice in a B03) in world with Protoss) Which actually reinforces your Argument. So with that happening at MLG i really think it brings into attention how strong Protoss really is in terms of balance. (Hero won Dreamhack Winter too (Not to take anything away from that He's an amazing player) Yeah, let's shit on every Protoss player regardless of their actual skill. What you don't understand is that your master gameplay is not comparable to ClouD's gameplay. And I would go as far as to say that ClouD's gameplay is not comparable to Nestea, MVP, and Naniwa (yeah, deal with it, Naniwa is a good player). Goddammit man, these three are training non stop in Korea while ClouD takes his time posting balance whine (twice!) on a trash thread on TL. Who do you think will win the most?? Protoss...obviously. You know top players don't spend every single second of their life practicing. If I post here just because I am used to do so for years and state protoss is way easier to play than terran it doesn't mean I am less dedicated than any of the other players you consider better than me. Actually I've talked to Naniwa recently and he told me he takes his time to do what he likes to do just as much or more than I do. Thing is you don't have to try to shit on my image just because I said a race takes considerably less skill and effort to be played at a foreign high level, because it doesn't change the reality of what I'm saying or the fact every foreign tournament result completely proves my point. Yeah, sorry, I admit I went out of line there. Wasn't trying to imply that you're not good or anything. So what do you propose? Wait for HotS? Straight up buff Terran? Terran still seems pretty strong at the GSL (in Code A today for example, no Protoss won). I don't think we're at a level of imbalance where a much worse player than you can beat you if he plays Protoss (http://sc2ranks.com/ranks/eu you don't lose much btw, gj ;D), so I don't really understand why you complain. And in my book you got a pretty decent run at DH where you beat Naniwa, a protoss. Is it just the feeling when you're playing? That you must do much more than the other guy to win? I say it doesn't matter if you still win, it's that much more satisfying. It's just weird that you, a good player with 76% winrate in EU GM, want to have your race made easier to play. But I mean, I kinda understand in a way, your livelihood depends on it, not mine. I think this game was made wrong for a tons of reasons and I am just frustrated cause I ended up getting the shortest end of the stick. When I see players like Seiplo who can't even explain why they do what they do randomly beating players 10 times better than them at DH and a monster like Kas playing all day long the best players in Europe losing in the groupstage like he did then I can't help but thinking this game is bad and unfair. Of course there are really good protoss players and they get the merit they deserve, but in Europe there's so many joke all in protoss players who just randomly take risks and can win because the race just requires no mechanics (bling or elfi being other good examples) and can be played with overall very poor understanding of RTS. I mean look at Titan he's actually a really good and skilled protoss player, he picked up the game very late and it took him very little time to compete at the highest level in Europe. There's nothing to do right now, this game has been fucked up by the bad pathing that makes units clump too much, the smart casting system and super smart AI a-move units. Also warpgate mechanic is ridicolous and makes me wonder if blizzard balance team has any clue about how RTS games work since the distance between production buildings and where you want to have your units is one of the biggest things a player has to consider in order to perform well. So I'm assuming you raged alot in BW when Protoss players were doing 1a move with 2 base Carrier on every map that they could right? I love how in BW people just simply accepted the fact that Terran players had to work harder for their wins, and yet over here despite the fact that Terran players have dominated both the foreign and international scene in terms of overall tournament wins, that they can't accept the fact that Protoss players might have finally figured out how to actually win for once after getting NUMEROUS amounts of nerfs.
I was protoss in brood war and while I always admitted it was a bit easier it still took insane skill, multitasking macro and micro to play protoss at high level while the skill ceiling for protoss in sc2 is just so low even really bad players can touch some of it. It's not fair even for the good protoss players who get to face bad players in their broken mirror and lose to them cause the game is flawed.
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Problem with terran is simply that they're constantly forced to do damage, so vs a player that defends well it's just not winnable in the lategame. Blizzard should have sticked with the way terran was in bw, maybe hots will improve things.
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Nice article.
A lot of people don't understand it, but oh well.
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On December 02 2011 02:44 superstartran wrote:Show nested quote +On December 01 2011 09:53 aTnClouD wrote:On December 01 2011 09:34 ZenithM wrote:On December 01 2011 09:21 aTnClouD wrote:On December 01 2011 08:55 ZenithM wrote:On December 01 2011 08:24 XRaDiiX wrote:On December 01 2011 07:02 aTnClouD wrote:
Well terran is by an huge amount the hardest race in the game, no doubt. I am not sure if the game is balanced at the current korean highest level but I can see for sure the level of knowledge and mechanics protoss and zerg require is incomparably inferior. Especially protoss. Zerg can be hard aswell but to a very good and experienced mechanical player from scbw there's not much else to learn. This is the reason foreign terrans do bad. They simply don't have a structure and practice with good enough players to keep up with korean terrans so they just lose to the easier to play races. I agree with your post 100% i have a hard time respecting Protoss players as much (at my level) because of how easier IMO personal opinion the Race is . I agree with you that Terran is probably the Hardest Race at the High Level (Top Master, GM) I play ZvT and i love it i feel its balanced and all really well ---PvZ (I don't feel its balanced at my level (Mid Master). I really think Protoss is the Strongest Race at Certain levels (maybe the Strongest possibly at levels a little lower than Nestea,MVP) Although Naniwa has proven this wrong in the Latest MLG. (He beat the two best Players(Beating Nestea Twice in a B03) in world with Protoss) Which actually reinforces your Argument. So with that happening at MLG i really think it brings into attention how strong Protoss really is in terms of balance. (Hero won Dreamhack Winter too (Not to take anything away from that He's an amazing player) Yeah, let's shit on every Protoss player regardless of their actual skill. What you don't understand is that your master gameplay is not comparable to ClouD's gameplay. And I would go as far as to say that ClouD's gameplay is not comparable to Nestea, MVP, and Naniwa (yeah, deal with it, Naniwa is a good player). Goddammit man, these three are training non stop in Korea while ClouD takes his time posting balance whine (twice!) on a trash thread on TL. Who do you think will win the most?? Protoss...obviously. You know top players don't spend every single second of their life practicing. If I post here just because I am used to do so for years and state protoss is way easier to play than terran it doesn't mean I am less dedicated than any of the other players you consider better than me. Actually I've talked to Naniwa recently and he told me he takes his time to do what he likes to do just as much or more than I do. Thing is you don't have to try to shit on my image just because I said a race takes considerably less skill and effort to be played at a foreign high level, because it doesn't change the reality of what I'm saying or the fact every foreign tournament result completely proves my point. Yeah, sorry, I admit I went out of line there. Wasn't trying to imply that you're not good or anything. So what do you propose? Wait for HotS? Straight up buff Terran? Terran still seems pretty strong at the GSL (in Code A today for example, no Protoss won). I don't think we're at a level of imbalance where a much worse player than you can beat you if he plays Protoss (http://sc2ranks.com/ranks/eu you don't lose much btw, gj ;D), so I don't really understand why you complain. And in my book you got a pretty decent run at DH where you beat Naniwa, a protoss. Is it just the feeling when you're playing? That you must do much more than the other guy to win? I say it doesn't matter if you still win, it's that much more satisfying. It's just weird that you, a good player with 76% winrate in EU GM, want to have your race made easier to play. But I mean, I kinda understand in a way, your livelihood depends on it, not mine. I think this game was made wrong for a tons of reasons and I am just frustrated cause I ended up getting the shortest end of the stick. When I see players like Seiplo who can't even explain why they do what they do randomly beating players 10 times better than them at DH and a monster like Kas playing all day long the best players in Europe losing in the groupstage like he did then I can't help but thinking this game is bad and unfair. Of course there are really good protoss players and they get the merit they deserve, but in Europe there's so many joke all in protoss players who just randomly take risks and can win because the race just requires no mechanics (bling or elfi being other good examples) and can be played with overall very poor understanding of RTS. I mean look at Titan he's actually a really good and skilled protoss player, he picked up the game very late and it took him very little time to compete at the highest level in Europe. There's nothing to do right now, this game has been fucked up by the bad pathing that makes units clump too much, the smart casting system and super smart AI a-move units. Also warpgate mechanic is ridicolous and makes me wonder if blizzard balance team has any clue about how RTS games work since the distance between production buildings and where you want to have your units is one of the biggest things a player has to consider in order to perform well. So I'm assuming you raged alot in BW when Protoss players were doing 1a move with 2 base Carrier on every map that they could right? I love how in BW people just simply accepted the fact that Terran players had to work harder for their wins, and yet over here despite the fact that Terran players have dominated both the foreign and international scene in terms of overall tournament wins, that they can't accept the fact that Protoss players might have finally figured out how to actually win for once after getting NUMEROUS amounts of nerfs. I'm not saying you don't have a point, but in BW people simply accepted the fact that playing Protoss was a hell of alot easier than the other races. And really, it was. You had so many cheesy strats at your disposal it was hilarious.
Really? Terran foreigners are dominating the foreign scene? I must be living in a parallel universe then.
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I was wondering, does anyone with an incredible memory or the time to dig the data know what the consistency of foreign terrans commitment is like to that of their zerg and protoss counterparts? To clarify, how many terrans have stayed active in the scene without disappearing or switching races etc? Qxc only plays half the year, Gretorp became a caster, Fenix went to korea and was awesome then vanished, Select wanders off for long periods.... Where are the terran versions of Huk who just kept trying to get better 'til he did, Idra who refused to win games for a while but was always there and competitive, Socke the immovable object at the top end of every tournament he seems to enter, Sen - the beast that waits?
Where is the Tyler or Incontrol of terran? It doesn't seem to me that there are foreign terrans with the fortitude to keep active long enough to figure things out like their Korean cousins and smash face at tournaments.
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On December 02 2011 03:04 BBQSAC wrote:
I was wondering, does anyone with an incredible memory or the time to dig the data know what the consistency of foreign terrans commitment is like to that of their zerg and protoss counterparts? To clarify, how many terrans have stayed active in the scene without disappearing or switching races etc? Qxc only plays half the year, Gretorp became a caster, Fenix went to korea and was awesome then vanished, Select wanders off for long periods.... Where are the terran versions of Huk who just kept trying to get better 'til he did, Idra who refused to win games for a while but was always there and competitive, Socke the immovable object at the top end of every tournament he seems to enter, Sen - the beast that waits?
Where is the Tyler or Incontrol of terran? It doesn't seem to me that there are foreign terrans with the fortitude to keep active long enough to figure things out like their Korean cousins and smash face at tournaments.
KAS, BeastyQT, Happy, Jinro, Drewbie? From what I've heard Huk barely has time to practice these days due to traveling across the world so I'm not sure if he helps your argument here.
Recently been watching Artists' stream and he is just as frustrated at P so its reassuring to know i'm not the only one! He shouldnt be losing to master's NA protoss right? since he's korean and all... I know he may not be the best, but he's up there.
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On December 02 2011 03:21 Superneenja wrote:Show nested quote +On December 02 2011 03:04 BBQSAC wrote:
I was wondering, does anyone with an incredible memory or the time to dig the data know what the consistency of foreign terrans commitment is like to that of their zerg and protoss counterparts? To clarify, how many terrans have stayed active in the scene without disappearing or switching races etc? Qxc only plays half the year, Gretorp became a caster, Fenix went to korea and was awesome then vanished, Select wanders off for long periods.... Where are the terran versions of Huk who just kept trying to get better 'til he did, Idra who refused to win games for a while but was always there and competitive, Socke the immovable object at the top end of every tournament he seems to enter, Sen - the beast that waits?
Where is the Tyler or Incontrol of terran? It doesn't seem to me that there are foreign terrans with the fortitude to keep active long enough to figure things out like their Korean cousins and smash face at tournaments. KAS, BeastyQT, Happy, Jinro, Drewbie? From what I've heard Huk barely has time to practice these days due to traveling across the world so I'm not sure if he helps your argument here. Recently been watching Artists' stream and he is just as frustrated at P so its reassuring to know i'm not the only one! He shouldnt be losing to master's NA protoss right? since he's korean and all... I know he may not be the best, but he's up there.
None of the terrans you mentioned is winning anything except some minor online cups.
kas - is really good, but atm also whining sometimes about toss on his stream
beasty - is whining about toss for ages now (which i totally understand xD) and has not won anything but online cups
happy - the same with online cups
jinro - has not shown anything since he was gsl semis like 1 year ago
drewbie - have actually not seen anything from him in a long time
and artosis is neither a korean nor a very good player. i'm not saying he could not be, but he just does not nearly have enough time to play.
€: I dont want to insult anyone of those terrans - they are all great players but just cant seem to win something bigger.
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On December 02 2011 03:04 BBQSAC wrote:
I was wondering, does anyone with an incredible memory or the time to dig the data know what the consistency of foreign terrans commitment is like to that of their zerg and protoss counterparts? To clarify, how many terrans have stayed active in the scene without disappearing or switching races etc? Qxc only plays half the year, Gretorp became a caster, Fenix went to korea and was awesome then vanished, Select wanders off for long periods.... Where are the terran versions of Huk who just kept trying to get better 'til he did, Idra who refused to win games for a while but was always there and competitive, Socke the immovable object at the top end of every tournament he seems to enter, Sen - the beast that waits?
Where is the Tyler or Incontrol of terran? It doesn't seem to me that there are foreign terrans with the fortitude to keep active long enough to figure things out like their Korean cousins and smash face at tournaments.
Painuser is as close as they get. But there is no visionary(madman?) like Kiwi or micro machine Sasa, though. I would like to see a terran take it to the next level and use some of the neglected units in the match up. Blue flame hellion and ravens have a role against protoss. It may not be be in support of the bio ball, but it is hard to believe they can't do anything.
We will see, someone will step to the plate and make the brave step of not flying his factory around and seeing what he can do with the units it builds.
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On December 02 2011 03:24 SevenShots wrote:Show nested quote +On December 02 2011 03:21 Superneenja wrote:On December 02 2011 03:04 BBQSAC wrote:
I was wondering, does anyone with an incredible memory or the time to dig the data know what the consistency of foreign terrans commitment is like to that of their zerg and protoss counterparts? To clarify, how many terrans have stayed active in the scene without disappearing or switching races etc? Qxc only plays half the year, Gretorp became a caster, Fenix went to korea and was awesome then vanished, Select wanders off for long periods.... Where are the terran versions of Huk who just kept trying to get better 'til he did, Idra who refused to win games for a while but was always there and competitive, Socke the immovable object at the top end of every tournament he seems to enter, Sen - the beast that waits?
Where is the Tyler or Incontrol of terran? It doesn't seem to me that there are foreign terrans with the fortitude to keep active long enough to figure things out like their Korean cousins and smash face at tournaments. KAS, BeastyQT, Happy, Jinro, Drewbie? From what I've heard Huk barely has time to practice these days due to traveling across the world so I'm not sure if he helps your argument here. Recently been watching Artists' stream and he is just as frustrated at P so its reassuring to know i'm not the only one! He shouldnt be losing to master's NA protoss right? since he's korean and all... I know he may not be the best, but he's up there. None of the terrans you mentioned is winning anything except some minor online cups. kas - is really good, but atm also whining sometimes about toss on his stream beasty - is whining about toss for ages now (which i totally understand xD) and has not won anything but online cups happy - the same with online cups jinro - has not shown anything since he was gsl semis like 1 year ago drewbie - have actually not seen anything from him in a long time and artosis is neither a korean nor a very good player. i'm not saying he could not be, but he just does not nearly have enough time to play. €: I dont want to insult anyone of those terrans - they are all great players but just cant seem to win something bigger.
I'm sorry I didn't know commitment meant you had to win something... also I said Artist as in RGNArtist not Artosis...
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On December 02 2011 03:32 Superneenja wrote:Show nested quote +On December 02 2011 03:24 SevenShots wrote:On December 02 2011 03:21 Superneenja wrote:On December 02 2011 03:04 BBQSAC wrote:
I was wondering, does anyone with an incredible memory or the time to dig the data know what the consistency of foreign terrans commitment is like to that of their zerg and protoss counterparts? To clarify, how many terrans have stayed active in the scene without disappearing or switching races etc? Qxc only plays half the year, Gretorp became a caster, Fenix went to korea and was awesome then vanished, Select wanders off for long periods.... Where are the terran versions of Huk who just kept trying to get better 'til he did, Idra who refused to win games for a while but was always there and competitive, Socke the immovable object at the top end of every tournament he seems to enter, Sen - the beast that waits?
Where is the Tyler or Incontrol of terran? It doesn't seem to me that there are foreign terrans with the fortitude to keep active long enough to figure things out like their Korean cousins and smash face at tournaments. KAS, BeastyQT, Happy, Jinro, Drewbie? From what I've heard Huk barely has time to practice these days due to traveling across the world so I'm not sure if he helps your argument here. Recently been watching Artists' stream and he is just as frustrated at P so its reassuring to know i'm not the only one! He shouldnt be losing to master's NA protoss right? since he's korean and all... I know he may not be the best, but he's up there. None of the terrans you mentioned is winning anything except some minor online cups. kas - is really good, but atm also whining sometimes about toss on his stream beasty - is whining about toss for ages now (which i totally understand xD) and has not won anything but online cups happy - the same with online cups jinro - has not shown anything since he was gsl semis like 1 year ago drewbie - have actually not seen anything from him in a long time and artosis is neither a korean nor a very good player. i'm not saying he could not be, but he just does not nearly have enough time to play. €: I dont want to insult anyone of those terrans - they are all great players but just cant seem to win something bigger. I'm sorry I didn't know commitment meant you had to win something... also I said Artist as in RGNArtist not Artosis...
oh im sorry, i totally read artosis. i don't know why. Oo
well in my oppinion the thing was to mention terrans who have been able to stay at the top. i don't think anyone of those (perhaps except kas but even that can be discussed) did do that.
youre right, artist should be able to win against na protoss. :D
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On December 02 2011 03:35 SevenShots wrote:Show nested quote +On December 02 2011 03:32 Superneenja wrote:On December 02 2011 03:24 SevenShots wrote:On December 02 2011 03:21 Superneenja wrote:On December 02 2011 03:04 BBQSAC wrote:
I was wondering, does anyone with an incredible memory or the time to dig the data know what the consistency of foreign terrans commitment is like to that of their zerg and protoss counterparts? To clarify, how many terrans have stayed active in the scene without disappearing or switching races etc? Qxc only plays half the year, Gretorp became a caster, Fenix went to korea and was awesome then vanished, Select wanders off for long periods.... Where are the terran versions of Huk who just kept trying to get better 'til he did, Idra who refused to win games for a while but was always there and competitive, Socke the immovable object at the top end of every tournament he seems to enter, Sen - the beast that waits?
Where is the Tyler or Incontrol of terran? It doesn't seem to me that there are foreign terrans with the fortitude to keep active long enough to figure things out like their Korean cousins and smash face at tournaments. KAS, BeastyQT, Happy, Jinro, Drewbie? From what I've heard Huk barely has time to practice these days due to traveling across the world so I'm not sure if he helps your argument here. Recently been watching Artists' stream and he is just as frustrated at P so its reassuring to know i'm not the only one! He shouldnt be losing to master's NA protoss right? since he's korean and all... I know he may not be the best, but he's up there. None of the terrans you mentioned is winning anything except some minor online cups. kas - is really good, but atm also whining sometimes about toss on his stream beasty - is whining about toss for ages now (which i totally understand xD) and has not won anything but online cups happy - the same with online cups jinro - has not shown anything since he was gsl semis like 1 year ago drewbie - have actually not seen anything from him in a long time and artosis is neither a korean nor a very good player. i'm not saying he could not be, but he just does not nearly have enough time to play. €: I dont want to insult anyone of those terrans - they are all great players but just cant seem to win something bigger. I'm sorry I didn't know commitment meant you had to win something... also I said Artist as in RGNArtist not Artosis... oh im sorry, i totally read artosis. i don't know why. Oo well in my oppinion the thing was to mention terrans who have been able to stay at the top. i don't think anyone of those (perhaps except kas but even that can be discussed) did do that. youre right, artist should be able to win against na protoss. :D
I definitively think he should be winning most if not all of his matches vs NA masters** toss... and its real sad to see him lose and then get mad and off race as Z a game or 2 after. And if you watch his games closing in most of the matches he loses he doesn't make any huge mistake or anything of that sort.
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Stim /thread
User was warned for this post
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