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On November 30 2011 15:46 ixi.genocide wrote:
one thing that is being thrown around quite a bit is that the lower levels are having trouble... that is why those people are in the lower level. the bottome 60% of players are going to be bad, the next 20% are plat and still horrible, the next 18% are diamond and still horrible, the last 20k people range from being mediocre to mvp. All races are hard at all levels and low level terrans are not an exception.
Unfortunately the point seems to have went over your head. The bottom 60% may be equally bad, yes, but Terran still requires significantly greater micro to be effective.
This shows in Code S vs Foreign tournament comparisons, which is subsequently backed up by solid data.
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On November 30 2011 15:46 ixi.genocide wrote:
one thing that is being thrown around quite a bit is that the lower levels are having trouble... that is why those people are in the lower level. the bottome 60% of players are going to be bad, the next 20% are plat and still horrible, the next 18% are diamond and still horrible, the last 20k people range from being mediocre to mvp. All races are hard at all levels and low level terrans are not an exception.
But terran is fundamentally more difficult due to the necessity of having better micro then your opponent. If two people are equally bad, but one plays terran, the one that is terran will be inherently weaker because he doesn't have the necessary skills that allow terran to be on-par with other races.
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This is totally fucking irrelevant. You're saying it takes more skill to control terran and because of that lower leagues suffer because terran is UP.
You completely ignore the fact that lower level zergs don't inject or spread creep nearly as well, but that has no effect on the outcome of a game either, or that protoss needs to micro forcefields, guardian shields, zealot positioning, storms, blink, collosi positioning, feedback. Again though none of that has any outcome in the game either. If a terran wants to win a game he must micro his units perfectly, and its much too hard for someone in silver level to stim up a bioball and a click, oh and maybe they have to move a fucking patch of units out of a storm.
My post is totally biased but you get the point. That and you quoted a bunch of results from protoss and zerg, but that was biased too, "1st and 4th protoss zerg, terran UP!" Wait doesn't that mean terran came 2nd and 3rd?
You claim only 2 terrans in top 10 foreigner scene, holy shit terran UP, must be because race is too hard to play when I have mules for increased 1 base income, scans for whenever I don't have detection and the cheapest highest dps and best scaling unit in the game. Yeah I mean, this GSL only had 2 terrans in ro4, must mean we're not strong enough.
Use your fucking head before you make another whiny bitch post about how I'm not good enough to be in master league and its because I play terran and they're too hard to control.
Oh and btw, blizzard has stated multiple times that the game is being balanced around pro level gameplay, if you want a crutch because your bad, maybe you should start playing on normal speed against the computer, I heard that makes it easier to control banshee's.
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On November 30 2011 15:52 Active.815 wrote:
But terran is fundamentally more difficult due to the necessity of having better micro then your opponent. If two people are equally bad, but one plays terran, the one that is terran will be inherently weaker because he doesn't have the necessary skills that allow terran to be on-par with other races.
The thing that I do not understand is.. why would you want to help out the lower level players? I understand that it is in blizzards best interest to help them for the money, but the community.. really? It makes no sense, the more that low level players want to have balance the dumber the game is going to look from a spectator watching the pro's perspective.
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On November 30 2011 14:14 ZorBa.G wrote:
OK, so to summarise everything up.
Terran has the highest skill cap due to micro capabilities. In order to reach a level of micro that is effective whilst being on par with your macro, you need to put in at least 30 games p/day (Code S Terrans).
If you cannot play such a large amount of games and put in that much practice, Protoss and Zerg is much more rewarding in the short term.
So from now on when I see those threads that state "Which race should I choose?" I will ask such questions first;
- How much time can you put into the game?
30 games p/day? Give Terran a go, they will be the most rewarding in the next 3 years when your micro is perfect. Also keep in mind when spending that 200 - 300 apm on micro, you still need to be on par with your macro.
25 games p/day? You like massing shit and setting up ambushes and prefer macro games? Play Zerg, still a very challenging yet rewarding race to play. However, you will reap the benifits of your hard work within about 2 - 3 years. This largely depends on how your game sense is as well. Very much a reactionary race.
Can only play 1 - 5 games per day and only interested in getting to masters within the next couple of months? Play Protoss. This is just pure balance whine, such bullshit, if you play significantly more games, you'll be the better player, regardless of race.
I'm actually considering switching to Protoss since I can't spend 24/7 trying to perfect my micro with Terran. I'm not even joking here.
Yes, at the upmost highest levels of SC2, Terran is a force to be reckoned with. But I don't see why Blizzard needs to set limitations on those who aren't pros. If anything, blizzard needs to stop nerfing Terran and look at the god damn units Protoss has. DO SOMETHING WITH THE MICRO MECHANICS OF PROTOSS. Make them weaker and make it so they require micro to be effective as well.
The more Blizzard nerfs Terran, the more they put this race out of reach for those players in the lower leagues.
As for Zerg, I don't really see much wrong with their race. I'm not going to elaborate on it, but I respect the skill involved to playing that race.
This sums up what is pretty much a Terran circle-jerk thread based on a terrible OP. Yep, protoss doesnt require micro to be effective -.- Wow, foreign terrans aren't doing so well so let's use it as an excuse to whine about how our race got a little bit harder to play. I particularly love all the terrans here clinging to beastqt's words like they're gospel. Most pros think their own race is underpowered and will post like that. Terrans have had it so easy for so long and been nerfed the least of any race despite maintainng 50%+ in all mu's since release. You're just not as good as you think you are, you don't have to be a korean terran to own with the race and you're kidding yourself if you think Toss or Zerg is significantly easier in standard play. Terran has great tools and is the most resilient vs cheese/allins (repair, bunkers, mules). Terran is nowhere near out of reach of low level players, just get used to being at the level you should've been at had blizzard designed terran better in the first place.
On November 30 2011 15:52 Active.815 wrote:
But terran is fundamentally more difficult due to the necessity of having better micro then your opponent.
No, you're just bad. Controlling blink stalker sentry templar effectively whilst spacing your army, focussing down vikings, feedbacking ghosts...yeah no micro there. You build bunkers, toss relies on ff's. The argument is just stupid. Both races get stronger with better micro and the player with better control generally wins.
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On November 30 2011 15:40 DemigodcelpH wrote:Show nested quote +On November 30 2011 15:35 RavenLoud wrote:On November 30 2011 15:23 DemigodcelpH wrote:On November 30 2011 14:14 ZorBa.G wrote:
OK, so to summarise everything up.
Terran has the highest skill cap due to micro capabilities. In order to reach a level of micro that is effective whilst being on par with your macro, you need to put in at least 30 games p/day (Code S Terrans).
If you cannot play such a large amount of games and put in that much practice, Protoss and Zerg is much more rewarding in the short term.
So from now on when I see those threads that state "Which race should I choose?" I will ask such questions first;
- How much time can you put into the game?
30 games p/day? Give Terran a go, they will be the most rewarding in the next 3 years when your micro is perfect. Also keep in mind when spending that 200 - 300 apm on micro, you still need to be on par with your macro.
25 games p/day? You like massing shit and setting up ambushes and prefer macro games? Play Zerg, still a very challenging yet rewarding race to play. However, you will reap the benifits of your hard work within about 2 - 3 years. This largely depends on how your game sense is as well. Very much a reactionary race.
Can only play 1 - 5 games per day and only interested in getting to masters within the next couple of months? Play Protoss.
I'm actually considering switching to Protoss since I can't spend 24/7 trying to perfect my micro with Terran. I'm not even joking here.
Yes, at the upmost highest levels of SC2, Terran is a force to be reckoned with. But I don't see why Blizzard needs to set limitations on those who aren't pros. If anything, blizzard needs to stop nerfing Terran and look at the god damn units Protoss has. DO SOMETHING WITH THE MICRO MECHANICS OF PROTOSS. Make them weaker and make it so they require micro to be effective as well.
The more Blizzard nerfs Terran, the more they put this race out of reach for those players in the lower leagues.
As for Zerg, I don't really see much wrong with their race. I'm not going to elaborate on it, but I respect the skill involved to playing that race. Very well said. It'll balance itself out. What's weird to me is people here whining about how the game takes effort to win, as if there's something fundamentally wrong with that... Strawman. OP's crutch, and the general consensus, is that Terran is harder to balance because it's units are unusually micro intensive resulting in a higher skill cap. Fundamentally this can be okay, but as OP says it's hard to balance things when a race has a higher skill cap. Code S Terrans are a force to be reckoned with, as they have the ability to micro units at 200-300 apm and still macro with 95% efficiency at home (Code S Z/P also have this skill; those races don't benefit as much from it), but foreign Terrans are getting utterly destroyed across the board as OP's insightful statistics show — an after-effect of the discrepancies in required skill.
I really don't see the argument that the game being harder to balance because it takes more practice to master a race. BW proved that it doesn't need to have races that play the same at all levels to have a fairly balanced game, it is still considered to be a much better balanced game than SC2 in its current state.
This thread is just saying that terran takes more skill to play at the highest level, then it tries to undermine that there is something off with have more units that takes advantage from more micro. It is just a fancy of saying it shouldn't be too hard to play so it can be balanced for both the casuals and the pros. There is no strawman.
This racial hubris really has to stop. Seems like every terran believes that the other races don't need to have mechanics or game knowledge as good as they do to beat them. I just can't take anyone who post like that seriously.
"Those races don't benefit as much from it" lol exactly what I meant.
Yes, the races play differently, who would have thought.
Granted in WoL terran has less boring 1a units like zealots, immortals, colossus, roach, corrupters, void rays, etc, but it's not a good argument to blame the game when you still have plenty of room to improve. Sometimes I wish Bliz would go back to when they would only patched once a year so people would focus on the game instead of bitching about how their race takes more skill.
EDIT: I still find it extremely ironic that the race with the most forgiving macro mechanic would complain that they aren't noob friendly enough. (Forgot supply depot? Supply drop!. Forgot to mule, has 2 orbitals with 180 energy? No prob drop 6 of em on a gold base. Ah crap, didn't get detection. Scan.)
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On November 30 2011 16:03 Temple wrote:Show nested quote +On November 30 2011 15:52 Active.815 wrote:
But terran is fundamentally more difficult due to the necessity of having better micro then your opponent. If two people are equally bad, but one plays terran, the one that is terran will be inherently weaker because he doesn't have the necessary skills that allow terran to be on-par with other races. The thing that I do not understand is.. why would you want to help out the lower level players? I understand that it is in blizzards best interest to help them for the money, but the community.. really? It makes no sense, the more that low level players want to have balance the dumber the game is going to look from a spectator watching the pro's perspective.
It's not necessarily "helping" lower level players; it's sort of what that bald Blizzard employee on the balance team said; "I owe it to all of you to give you a balanced game", so that applies to everyone as in players in all tiers of skill.
So while Terran may have a higher skill cap because it's so micro intensive it still needs to be balanced for lesser players (IE < Code S) too, and honestly Blizzard is doing a commendable job so far, and HoTS will give them even more room to improve things.
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On November 30 2011 13:12 Endymion wrote:
u gotta sk8
furthermore, when is 30/11/2011...
Aha we aussies do it back to front endymion, that means the 30th of nov, today 
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Dreamhack Valencia: Thorzain 2nd
Asus rog: Select 2nd
Tons of smaller weekly cups with players such as Nercio, Stephano and Mana are attending regularly are won by Terrans often.
Go4sc2 150: DarkHydra 1st
152: Beastyqt 1st
Most recent sunday cups.
1st it was the the sad zergs, then we got sad zealots, now we get sad marines?? Some people will always whine about imbalance and 99% of the time they whine about the imbalance of their own race, weird?
The statement of "Koreans are better than foreigners so that means their results cant be considered as valid" is just stupid.
-What if Stephano won IPL because he is better than the others who attended, his results cannot be considered then. -What if IdrA was better?
-the OP just isolates a certain small fraction of the playerbase where no koreans or smaller cups count for anything and states that the lack of terrans in that area in this specific month means terran is imbalanced.
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On November 30 2011 15:46 freetgy wrote:Show nested quote +On November 30 2011 15:40 DemigodcelpH wrote:
Strawman. OP's crutch, and the general consensus, is that Terran is harder to balance because it's units are unusually micro intensive resulting in a higher skill cap. Fundamentally this can be okay, but as OP says it's hard to balance things when a race has a higher skill cap.
Code S Terrans are a force to be reckoned with, as they have the ability to micro units at 200-300 apm and still macro with 95% efficiency at home, but foreign Terrans are getting utterly destroyed across the board as OP's insightful statistics show — an after-effect of the discrepancies in required skill.
What the OP implies is that Terran needs less DPS and more durable units so you don't need to micro as much. But is that really what terran players want? (they are getting some with the Battle Hellion) Less potential at the highest level of play for making the game easier at the lower leagues.
This is exactly what I was going to post.
I don't see the point of making terran less micro intensive if it's going to make pro matches less interesting...If you are stuck on plat, diamond or something you just need to get better. Remember that every bit you get better makes more difference than every bit your opponent gets better, since terran scales better with micro.
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I'm probably echoing what a lot of people have said, but once you get to the plat-low masters range terran becomes exponentially harder because you cannot rely on 1 base all ins as much and also the other race can match your macro. Protoss players and zergs can keep up or even surpass you in supply unless you do some damage, and even then they could still be equal with you. And when two players' macro is even, it comes down to other things like micro and strategy and that is where terrans fall behind. Sure, micro is important for all races, but terran is on a knife's edge in large battles. If you don't micro correctly, you're dead. Forcefields are important yes, and positioning for zerg is important, but most of the time these aren't game ending mistakes.
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On November 30 2011 14:34 sunman1g wrote:Show nested quote +On November 30 2011 13:16 Crisium wrote:
I think many Zerg would claim that they need hella good Micro to beat a Terran or Protoss death ball. you gotta be joking right ? zerg is all about flanking and position, when they attack into a sieged line with rines, tanks and thors they literally A move and shift click mutas "hella good micro" good one.
What's your point...? Terran isn't particularly much harder, the only thing you really have to do in the engagement you mentioned is half a sort of almost general idea of how to set up a tank link correct and learn how to split marines. Essentially all you have to do when they attack is micro marines back and split them..
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On November 30 2011 16:03 Temple wrote:Show nested quote +On November 30 2011 15:52 Active.815 wrote:
But terran is fundamentally more difficult due to the necessity of having better micro then your opponent. If two people are equally bad, but one plays terran, the one that is terran will be inherently weaker because he doesn't have the necessary skills that allow terran to be on-par with other races. The thing that I do not understand is.. why would you want to help out the lower level players? I understand that it is in blizzards best interest to help them for the money, but the community.. really? It makes no sense, the more that low level players want to have balance the dumber the game is going to look from a spectator watching the pro's perspective.
I would much rather have the other races get higher skillcaps as well. instead of requiring terran to do 75% of the micro in a matchup to get the most out of their units, give toss and zerg stuff that benefits as well. It's more annoying to me that they didn't give zerg and protoss the same potential from their units, because as we've seen terran gets shafted every patch just because Korea can do it better.
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On November 30 2011 16:13 Active.815 wrote:Show nested quote +On November 30 2011 16:03 Temple wrote:On November 30 2011 15:52 Active.815 wrote:
But terran is fundamentally more difficult due to the necessity of having better micro then your opponent. If two people are equally bad, but one plays terran, the one that is terran will be inherently weaker because he doesn't have the necessary skills that allow terran to be on-par with other races. The thing that I do not understand is.. why would you want to help out the lower level players? I understand that it is in blizzards best interest to help them for the money, but the community.. really? It makes no sense, the more that low level players want to have balance the dumber the game is going to look from a spectator watching the pro's perspective. I would much rather have the other races get higher skillcaps as well. instead of requiring terran to do 75% of the micro in a matchup to get the most out of their units, give toss and zerg stuff that benefits as well. It's more annoying to me that they didn't give zerg and protoss the same potential from their units, because as we've seen terran gets shafted every patch just because Korea can do it better.
I think zerg is going to get a lot more micro intensive in HOTS. The viper and the swarm host will add quite a bit of variety to the race.
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On November 30 2011 16:13 Active.815 wrote:Show nested quote +On November 30 2011 16:03 Temple wrote:On November 30 2011 15:52 Active.815 wrote:
But terran is fundamentally more difficult due to the necessity of having better micro then your opponent. If two people are equally bad, but one plays terran, the one that is terran will be inherently weaker because he doesn't have the necessary skills that allow terran to be on-par with other races. The thing that I do not understand is.. why would you want to help out the lower level players? I understand that it is in blizzards best interest to help them for the money, but the community.. really? It makes no sense, the more that low level players want to have balance the dumber the game is going to look from a spectator watching the pro's perspective. I would much rather have the other races get higher skillcaps as well. instead of requiring terran to do 75% of the micro in a matchup to get the most out of their units, give toss and zerg stuff that benefits as well. It's more annoying to me that they didn't give zerg and protoss the same potential from their units, because as we've seen terran gets shafted every patch just because Korea can do it better.
I find it hard to believe terran is getting shafted because korea can do better, ghost needed to be nerfed period. They dam near hard countered the very things that were supposed to counter them, because of their range and any competent terran could snipe infestors and hts long before they even got a chance, and the only alternative otherwise was to warp prism hts in and out (if people wanna whine about micro).
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You can pull stats from anywhere and make an argument, in SEA's GO4SC2 cups there are 20ish Terran winners in 44 cups. Only 4 have been won by protoss, all by a Korean called Soulman. The terran winners are all 'foreigners', go figure.
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On November 30 2011 16:16 dmnum wrote:Show nested quote +On November 30 2011 16:13 Active.815 wrote:On November 30 2011 16:03 Temple wrote:On November 30 2011 15:52 Active.815 wrote:
But terran is fundamentally more difficult due to the necessity of having better micro then your opponent. If two people are equally bad, but one plays terran, the one that is terran will be inherently weaker because he doesn't have the necessary skills that allow terran to be on-par with other races. The thing that I do not understand is.. why would you want to help out the lower level players? I understand that it is in blizzards best interest to help them for the money, but the community.. really? It makes no sense, the more that low level players want to have balance the dumber the game is going to look from a spectator watching the pro's perspective. I would much rather have the other races get higher skillcaps as well. instead of requiring terran to do 75% of the micro in a matchup to get the most out of their units, give toss and zerg stuff that benefits as well. It's more annoying to me that they didn't give zerg and protoss the same potential from their units, because as we've seen terran gets shafted every patch just because Korea can do it better. I think zerg is going to get a lot more micro intensive in HOTS. The viper and the swarm host will add quite a bit of variety to the race.
The swarm host sure looks like a unit that you must micro frantically.
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On November 30 2011 15:51 DemigodcelpH wrote:Show nested quote +On November 30 2011 15:46 ixi.genocide wrote:
one thing that is being thrown around quite a bit is that the lower levels are having trouble... that is why those people are in the lower level. the bottome 60% of players are going to be bad, the next 20% are plat and still horrible, the next 18% are diamond and still horrible, the last 20k people range from being mediocre to mvp. All races are hard at all levels and low level terrans are not an exception. Unfortunately the point seems to have went over your head. The bottom 60% may be equally bad, yes, but Terran still requires significantly greater micro to be effective. This shows in Code S vs Foreign tournament comparisons, which is subsequently backed up by solid data.
Terran does not require significantly more micro to be effective, it has the potential to make your units rediculously effective. Aside running away from banelings the hellion is the only real unit that needs to be microed to be up to par. Marine splitting is really important and is one of the ways to separate a terran from the pack but all the way up to high masters you can get away with running your marines and focus firing with tanks which is not that hard. The point has no basis because the OP is leaving out the quality of Terran players, the results of terran players in the top of tournaments (such as the Asus ROG) or that this discussion is following a recent patch and will eventually be worked out. In addition to that the top level Z/P players can take on the korean terrans (especially the lower S class ones). Select, Demuslim, Major, Kas, thorzain are just a few of the good foreign terran players.
My point is Terran players can use micro to be way more effective than z/p but at all levels all races are hard in some manner or another. It would seem that the point went right by you.
On November 30 2011 15:52 Active.815 wrote:Show nested quote +On November 30 2011 15:46 ixi.genocide wrote:
one thing that is being thrown around quite a bit is that the lower levels are having trouble... that is why those people are in the lower level. the bottome 60% of players are going to be bad, the next 20% are plat and still horrible, the next 18% are diamond and still horrible, the last 20k people range from being mediocre to mvp. All races are hard at all levels and low level terrans are not an exception. But terran is fundamentally more difficult due to the necessity of having better micro then your opponent. If two people are equally bad, but one plays terran, the one that is terran will be inherently weaker because he doesn't have the necessary skills that allow terran to be on-par with other races.
The difficulty of races change as your skills improve. Ask a bronze player to micro 2 marines vs a zealot and he will probably fail, ask a plat zerg to get 50 drones by 9 minutes and he will probably fail. Between the reliance on 1 base play and the ease of terran all-ins I don't think that terran is harder at the bronze-gold leagues; A masters terran player may have troubles with TvP lategame but those problems don't necessarily affect the silver terran, The bronze zerg player may have problems with production while being alone but you can guarantee a <14 minute max zerg above plat.
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You'd think master/gm randomers would cry every time they get T because they have to micro twice as hard -.-
funny how they don't.
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EPT
