EPT[D] Fundamental problems with Terran - Page 4
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AcrosstheSky
United States237 Posts
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ZenithM
France15952 Posts
On November 30 2011 14:23 ZorBa.G wrote: Being forced to micro when your opponent doesn't need to is a design flaw. I don't think so actually. It's just race design. Zerg is maybe the most A-movish race of all, it's still interesting and challenging to play. Not saying that Terran isn't too weak, just that sometimes different aspects of gameplay can be solicited from the player to beat a certain strat. As at 30/11/2011, the top 6 foreigners in TLPD are all zerg and protoss. Only two terrans are in the top 10 - Major at 7th, and Kas at 10th. A bad argument for a maybe valid point. 2 terrans among 10 players instead of the 3 we should expect is not a problem at all. With that being said, I don't think Major or Kas are top 10 foreigners ;D | ||
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Tishe
Singapore17 Posts
Another problem is that terrans almost always dictate the pace and flow of the game. Coupling this with a higher "micro potential" and we have a race that can never be balanced for all levels. | ||
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RavenLoud
Canada1100 Posts
It shames our community and should be closed imo. | ||
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ZenithM
France15952 Posts
On November 30 2011 14:40 RavenLoud wrote: This thread has become "I'm terran so I'm better than you because I say so." It shames our community and should be closed imo. It's true though, terrans are the better players and by far. So let us just grab our free wins against them and bow our heads in shame. + Show Spoiler +  | ||
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thesauceishot
Canada333 Posts
So I disagree with the OP, Terran units don't have to be micro'd to be cost-effective. I'm biased, but I would say that Protoss units need to be micro'd the most in order to be cost effective. Stalkers have terrible dps, but they're mobile and they have a blink ability - all which make it a micro unit. Zeals don't take much micro but they do need to be positioned in front of the army at all times. Sentries have barely any DPS, and FF's are so crucial that if you miss one on your ramp you can lose a game. | ||
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DemigodcelpH
1138 Posts
On November 30 2011 14:18 Empire.Beastyqt wrote: Problem is just in game design, terran as race is made harder to micro than other 2 races and when one unit is micro'd near perfect it seems as "overpowered" and then blizzard nerfs it since they dont know how to balance it out. Examples are marines vs zerglings vs zealots or stalkers vs marauders vs roaches. Marines and stalkers become much powerful with very good micro, while other 4 unit types dont need to be micro'd very good on low level to be successful. Another example is mutas - void rays - banshees, while void rays are "OP" on low levels, mutas and cloakless banshees probably "suck" because they require much more micro to use their full potential. Like someone mentioned already, terran as a race is made micro oriented while other 2 races are played different (not saying they dont require micro on top level but on low level its much harder for terran players to win their games) which results in terran % of players globally decreasing each season while zerg race players % has been increasing (read this on TL). All this nerfing to terran race, even tho it was needed on the GSL code S level, it is killing the lower leagues and players who are playing the game casually would rather switch races than spend more time on the game itself, because...they play game for fun and fun = winning most of the time. Not sure if Polt said it 1-2 GSL's ago that once patch hits "all the bad terrans will drop out from GSL because of this" + Show Spoiler + and now he's out of GSL My personal opinion on the whole balance thing - yes koreans were dominating GSL but if the race was overpowered terrans would dominate foreigner tournaments as well - which wasnt the case. Blizzard is balancing the game based on GSL obviously and even if slight nerf was needed I think blizzard overdid it and that we will see zergs and protoss dominate much more very soon. And for those who will probably be "go play other race if u think yours is shit" - you got it wrong, terran is very good race, but reaching top level or even low level play is much more time consuming than other 2 races if you want to win, which is reason why people complain on terran race atm. Beastyqt <3 This. This man speaks the truth. | ||
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canikizu
4860 Posts
On November 30 2011 14:37 AcrosstheSky wrote: Just for the record...micro isn't even that big of a factor till high master/grandmaster play and even then most games are won by good macro, not micro. Even at the pro level good positioning is more than half the battle. Eh, no, it used to not that big of a factor, but nowaday every zergs know how to make banelings, every protoss knows how to make collosus, HT, you won't win the game if you don't micro against the baneling, you just can't. Well unless the zerg amove baneling into seige tanks.... But even that the case, zerglings will still kill marines if marines don't shutterstep. | ||
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Mehukannu
Finland421 Posts
On November 30 2011 14:33 iaguz wrote: The main thing you can take from looking at these results is that foreign terrans past few months have been playing like shit. Korean Terrans can do it. Why can't they? You've also forgotten SelCT getting 2nd place in the ASUS stars ROG invitational. Korea is much more ideal place to train your play than it is anywhere else in the world due to BW putting a nice stable ground for SC2 players, while the rest of the world is trying to reach the same point like it is there. | ||
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Proof.
535 Posts
And ultras hard counter marines? Double dang. | ||
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HellionDrop
281 Posts
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ixi.genocide
United States981 Posts
I play Z as my main and off as T. It's always interesting to switch races because I find it incredibly difficult to tell where I would go wrong in my games as Z but as T I can almost always say "messed up here, caused me to start to lose". The reason why I bring this up is that you can literally do anything you want with the terran race, You can build 7 rax off of 2-3 base and produce 13 marines at a time, you can make 3 cc's before the 8 minute mark and have the best eco in the game, you can tech, drop, siege and defend extremely well. If we look at the people that are at the top of those tournaments you will see players like huk, idra, naniwa and ret. These guys would be at the top of that list regardless of their race. Watch players like Major, he is a top tier terran, thorzain is top tier, hopefully demuslim will rise to the top. There will be luls in each race and I wouldn't consider terran in a lul because you are leaving out the giant elephant known as korean terrans and including the S ranked foreign players. Also, look at how the tournaments at places like MLG providence went... There were plenty of terrans in the champ bracket and a lot of them were knocked out by other Terrans. | ||
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DemigodcelpH
1138 Posts
On November 30 2011 13:25 Plansix wrote: The argument of "I am not as good as a Pro Korean, so I cannot win with terran" hold little weight. Holds plenty of weight, because the other races aren't as micro intensive as Terran; the skill caps are lower. This is why foriegn Terrans are getting utterly dominated across the board as the statistics in OP's post state. | ||
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Jimmy Raynor
902 Posts
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Durp
Canada3117 Posts
This can be seen by only Thorzain and Jinro putting up any kind of substantial, tangible results. (for this conversation, let's say without a korean contingent of players, the tournament doesn't matter much). Conversely, Naniwa, HuK, IdrA, Dimaga, Ret, and Stephano have all had pretty substantial victories. The stable of foreign players that play zerg and protoss is at a higher skill level than their foreign terran counterparts, and as such, foreign zergs and protoss will do better. This seems to have nothing to do with design. | ||
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sunman1g
United States334 Posts
On November 30 2011 14:18 Empire.Beastyqt wrote: Problem is just in game design, terran as race is made harder to micro than other 2 races and when one unit is micro'd near perfect it seems as "overpowered" and then blizzard nerfs it since they dont know how to balance it out. Examples are marines vs zerglings vs zealots or stalkers vs marauders vs roaches. Marines and stalkers become much powerful with very good micro, while other 4 unit types dont need to be micro'd very good on low level to be successful. Another example is mutas - void rays - banshees, while void rays are "OP" on low levels, mutas and cloakless banshees probably "suck" because they require much more micro to use their full potential. Like someone mentioned already, terran as a race is made micro oriented while other 2 races are played different (not saying they dont require micro on top level but on low level its much harder for terran players to win their games) which results in terran % of players globally decreasing each season while zerg race players % has been increasing (read this on TL). All this nerfing to terran race, even tho it was needed on the GSL code S level, it is killing the lower leagues and players who are playing the game casually would rather switch races than spend more time on the game itself, because...they play game for fun and fun = winning most of the time. Not sure if Polt said it 1-2 GSL's ago that once patch hits "all the bad terrans will drop out from GSL because of this" + Show Spoiler + and now he's out of GSL My personal opinion on the whole balance thing - yes koreans were dominating GSL but if the race was overpowered terrans would dominate foreigner tournaments as well - which wasnt the case. Blizzard is balancing the game based on GSL obviously and even if slight nerf was needed I think blizzard overdid it and that we will see zergs and protoss dominate much more very soon. And for those who will probably be "go play other race if u think yours is shit" - you got it wrong, terran is very good race, but reaching top level or even low level play is much more time consuming than other 2 races if you want to win, which is reason why people complain on terran race atm. this man says the truth !! i agree with everything  this should be in the OP. | ||
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Steveling
Greece10806 Posts
Toss is most noob friendly of all. | ||
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AxionSteel
United States7754 Posts
On November 30 2011 14:48 Durp wrote: The foreign community has better Protoss and Zerg compared to their Terrans. This can be seen by only Thorzain and Jinro putting up any kind of substantial, tangible results. (for this conversation, let's say without a korean contingent of players, the tournament doesn't matter much). Conversely, Naniwa, HuK, IdrA, Dimaga, Ret, and Stephano have all had pretty substantial victories. The stable of foreign players that play zerg and protoss is at a higher skill level than their foreign terran counterparts, and as such, foreign zergs and protoss will do better. This seems to have nothing to do with design. Guess that means the Korean terrans are just way, way more talented than the Korean zergs and protosses then. | ||
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DemigodcelpH
1138 Posts
On November 30 2011 14:52 AxionSteel wrote: Guess that means the Korean terrans are just way, way more talented than the Korean zergs and protosses then. Code S Koreans are generally in the same tier of skill. Terran is just more rewarding for (extreme) amounts of skill, and less rewarding when not micro'd. | ||
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Techno
1900 Posts
On November 30 2011 14:56 DemigodcelpH wrote: Code S Koreans are generally in the same tier of skill. Terran is just more rewarding for (extreme) amounts of skill, and less rewarding when not micro'd. IMMVP is the most impressive player to watch for me. Maybe it's cause I play Terran but I really think he's just better than anyone else, + Show Spoiler + even leenock. | ||
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