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We have issued a clarification to this article after discussion with staff, read here - Heyoka |
I liked the article but the EG bit had no place in it, completely irreleant to an MLG write-up. Very low blow from TL staff.
It's not that the OP is wrong just that this was the wrong place for it.
edit: the hilarity of Incontrol questioning the oGs-TL house when it 100% produced EGs best player is priceless though.
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Braavos36369 Posts
On November 28 2011 20:55 snailz wrote:Show nested quote +On November 28 2011 20:52 jmbthirteen wrote:On November 28 2011 20:48 Ktk wrote:On November 28 2011 20:19 jmbthirteen wrote:On November 28 2011 20:17 snailz wrote:its funny how full-time EG player goes on to bash TLAF.Liquid's players just because a member of TL.net community (relatively unimportant and random person) called out his own teammates in an article. i understand your emotions, but two wrongs don't make a right... On November 28 2011 19:42 iNcontroL wrote:On November 28 2011 19:40 GLLvz wrote:On November 28 2011 18:49 iNcontroL wrote:
wow
calling out EG house.. ok. Well TL abandoned korea cause their results were even worse there so maybe the investment of TL / oGs was a bad idea as well? A worse idea even...
but that'd be a dumb thing to say.. especially on an official article. We have had the house for 3 months and the results have gotten a helluva lot better but you are going to say it was a waste? get real. the TL house produced EG's best preforming player and your saying they are doing bad? Jinro 2 times 4th place @ GSL. And bashing TL's team because someone is stateing the obvious, this comming from a offical EG member and not a Random News writer on a community site. pretty low if you ask me!.. nobody is asking you. stay classy incontrol  Where did incontrol bash liquid guys? And sure it was written by a "relatively unimportant and random person" but the TL staff approved this article and it represents TL as a whole. Mmm, if you scroll down a bit, I thought it says The opinions expressed by our users do not reflect the official position of TeamLiquid.net or its staff. ? This wasn't a user. It was a TL writer posted by a TL admin. This is TL staff material, not a user like you or me. jmbthirteen is absoultely right, TL users =/= TL writers/staff/admins. it is representative of TL.net opinions. which many people tend to agree with, even though they perhaps think it's still a dick move. so better to get it out in the open, or? i don't think even the writer knew what was better... after GSL expect 100 pages shitstorm from crazy fanboys, tho 
Not saying I agree or disagree with confusedcrib in his article, but let's be clear: something written on our front page is an opinion of the writer and not representative of everyone on TL or even everyone on the TL staff. We have a volunteer staff of ~200 people. Even confusedcrib said before he expected to get flamed for it, it's a relatively controversial opinion that obviously isn't some official statement by our entire site. If everyone has read our news lately there's a decent amount of op-ed-ish style opinion segments.
tldr; never take one writers opinion to represent all of TL
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On November 28 2011 21:04 Hot_Bid wrote:Show nested quote +On November 28 2011 20:55 snailz wrote:On November 28 2011 20:52 jmbthirteen wrote:On November 28 2011 20:48 Ktk wrote:On November 28 2011 20:19 jmbthirteen wrote:On November 28 2011 20:17 snailz wrote:its funny how full-time EG player goes on to bash TLAF.Liquid's players just because a member of TL.net community (relatively unimportant and random person) called out his own teammates in an article. i understand your emotions, but two wrongs don't make a right... On November 28 2011 19:42 iNcontroL wrote:On November 28 2011 19:40 GLLvz wrote:On November 28 2011 18:49 iNcontroL wrote:
wow
calling out EG house.. ok. Well TL abandoned korea cause their results were even worse there so maybe the investment of TL / oGs was a bad idea as well? A worse idea even...
but that'd be a dumb thing to say.. especially on an official article. We have had the house for 3 months and the results have gotten a helluva lot better but you are going to say it was a waste? get real. the TL house produced EG's best preforming player and your saying they are doing bad? Jinro 2 times 4th place @ GSL. And bashing TL's team because someone is stateing the obvious, this comming from a offical EG member and not a Random News writer on a community site. pretty low if you ask me!.. nobody is asking you. stay classy incontrol Where did incontrol bash liquid guys? And sure it was written by a "relatively unimportant and random person" but the TL staff approved this article and it represents TL as a whole. Mmm, if you scroll down a bit, I thought it says The opinions expressed by our users do not reflect the official position of TeamLiquid.net or its staff. ? This wasn't a user. It was a TL writer posted by a TL admin. This is TL staff material, not a user like you or me. jmbthirteen is absoultely right, TL users =/= TL writers/staff/admins. it is representative of TL.net opinions. which many people tend to agree with, even though they perhaps think it's still a dick move. so better to get it out in the open, or? i don't think even the writer knew what was better... after GSL expect 100 pages shitstorm from crazy fanboys, tho Not saying I agree or disagree with confusedcrib in his article, but let's be clear: something written on our front page is an opinion of the writer and not representative of everyone on TL or even everyone on the TL staff. We have a volunteer staff of ~200 people. Even confusedcrib said before he expected to get flamed for it, it's a relatively controversial opinion that obviously isn't some official statement by our entire site. If everyone has read our news lately there's a decent amount of op-ed-ish style opinion segments.
completely understood.
perhaps you should add your statement into the OP at the bottom, just to avoid future confusion. i dont think it will help, but it certainly directs flame towards the writer and away from "TL vs EG"
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On November 28 2011 20:55 jmbthirteen wrote:Show nested quote +On November 28 2011 20:49 skyrunner wrote:On November 28 2011 20:30 jmbthirteen wrote:On November 28 2011 20:23 skyrunner wrote:On November 28 2011 20:15 jmbthirteen wrote:On November 28 2011 20:10 skyrunner wrote:On November 28 2011 19:55 Zlasher wrote:On November 28 2011 19:46 skyrunner wrote:On November 28 2011 19:33 Zlasher wrote:On November 28 2011 19:23 Lutto wrote:
[quote]
4th place GSL 2 times in the start dosent count? Yes he has fallen off after that but you dont need to say that he havent done anything... I didn't say he hasn't done anything, but since then have his results been expected out of practicing with oGs for so long? Asking "Should Team Evil Geniuses Have Established a North American Team House?" is the same as asking if Jinro deserves to be practicing there, its absolutely ludicrous. Jinro 100% deserves to be practicing with oGs and is a top foreign contender. Just like there is absolutely no doubt that EG should have formed the house, why NOT form the house. Jinro is not a good example. Neither is TLO's house in sweden. That wasn't a even a teamhouse, it was just a bunch if friends living and practicing together, completely different from the EG house wich formed for the reason of making the eg members better. I can't speak for EG but I'm pretty sure the Team House was formed in order to give their players an opportunity to truly become full time players and not live in the esports model of pre 2010. It also creates a central hub for their business as well as media production to occur, along with that, the reason is to give the players the practice environment of a Korean pro-house while still being in the West, where esports has had the explosion, not in Korea. The goal is not to here and now outright make players better, a few walls and a roof can't do that, but it can provide the scenario to get better. After 3-4 months of being in the house can we really say any of those players have gotten worse? Not only are they all streaming now but we, once again, have seen Idra break out of a slump, something a team house hasn't done for other players on other teams with the opportunity to be in a team house. That's just the most obvious example of someone who's gotten better as a result. Not to mention how can we possibly be judging ALL of these houses based on one event? When you look at a list of the players who went two and out. Actually im pretty sure it was specifically stated at the time the teamhouse was formed, that it was to make the players better by practicing in a house together. That's also what you were (and is still is) arguing for. I have said all along that it might be other reasons to have a team house, so it's kinda funny you're telling me that. There just is nothing that indicates that most of the eg players have benefited from the house, and you can't compare it to any other house saying "well look at those guys they haven't benefited from their house either" - because their just isn't any similar house to the EG house. The fact that idra was even in a slump tells us that he was a good player already. Did he break out of the slump because of the EG house? maybe, maybe not. Does ONE PLAYER breaking out of a slump justify having a teamhouse? If you only have it to get more results and no one else is, then i would say "No". So you are just against teamhouses then right? Not just the EG one. I mean who is to say how good MC could be living outside the oGs house. ME? No im not against teamhouses. NO im NOT against EG's house. plz read. There is alot to indicate that the ogs house makes their players better. Not when it comes to EG. Now obv you can never say for sure. Both jinro and huk became very good after living at the ogs house. No eg player has showing noticably better results since moving to the house. Maybe idra. How has the oGs house indicated it makes their players better than the EG house? How do we know what those players would have done if they lived somewhere else? The same question you ask about the EG players. No one truly knows. But we do know that players have improved since they moved into the houses. Your argument doesn't really make sense. My argument? How are you using "my" argument against me by claiming the same thing but it doesn't adhere to your argument??? Im saying that we can't truly know how the teamhouse has affected these players skill level. You are saying the same, so what's the problem? When we discuss the teamhouses we have to look past that. Ogs house has made alot of players succesful, for example huk and jinro has done great AFTER joining the house. No one on EG has started doing really good after joining the house. See there? See the comparison? Nothing indicates that the EG house is making their players better, you can't say that about the ogs house. No, I'm not using your argument, I'm applying your argument to a house you said does help when you have no proof that it does to show that its a bad argument. Its way too early to say the EG house isn't producing results and not worth it. How can you say no one in the EG house started doing well after moving into the house? Idra started winning, DeMuslim has been doing great. Axslav and Machine have both improved their play, posting better results than before too. Sure, nothing indicates they are doing better if you ignore their improvements.
I know you think you weren't using it but you were. You said yourself "No one truly knows". Yeah, thank you for pointing out how bad my "argument" was then using it yourself.
Notice how i put my "argument" in quotation marks? Yeah it's because that is NOT my argument. Haha jesus.....
That's a "I might be wrong and there is no way to know it" thing.
Stop trying to randomly twist shit i say and make a point out of it. Just as you did with the "so you're against teamhouses herp derp". Then just hop on to something else when you are proven wrong.
Ogs has produced a shitload of great players. EG house hasn't. That is my argument, and you can't argue how much better huk and jinro got after practicing there. Huk, puma and idra was good before practicing at the EG house. Demulsim was injured and he isn't anymore that's why he has gotten better. Machine and Axslav has always been solid players, can't say they've been doing any better lately.
It is true that it's hard to judge after this short time. Still that's what we're doing (yes even you are, but you wouldn't contradict yourself would you?). I can't see into the future, sorry, i can only look at their performance so far.
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I think the EG bit just does not belong into this article?
It would belong in to an article that talks about the team and how they did at the end of the year or after a big league finished. It just feels out of place here?
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On November 28 2011 21:03 chocopaw wrote:Show nested quote +On November 28 2011 16:39 heyoka wrote:
The Decorah Eagles Milgie for best LR thread MLG Dallas was beset by more technical problems than any major SC2 tournament to date (other contenders: Blizzcon 2010 Invitational, NASL Grand Finals Day 1, IPL 3, and the PPSL). Because of the venue's poor internet, MLG was only able to stream a grand total of three matches over the entire Saturday. So what happens when you promise tens of thousands of Starcraft fans the greatest Starcraft of their lives, and then withhold it from them? This happens, the Day 2 Live Report thread. The broken stream hammered spectators to desperation, and in their desperation, they turned to something they didn't fully understand: eagles. The thread is filled with eagle macros. Pictures of kittens jumping over streams. Fake MLG stream notices. The kind of shenanigans that no TL mod would ever tolerate in any other circumstance. But on that day, everyone had thrown up their hands, and this LR thread is a testament to the wanton abandon that filled the Starcraft void. Winner: the MLG Dallas Day 2 Live Report Thread So deserved. Going through it right now while watching GSL, it was the most awesome thing ever. Too bad they started banning after a while, so the article is not entirely true. Everybody was having a good time, so in that regard it was better than every LR thread since with all the flaming and balancewhine and shit. :D
The best pictures were salvaged from that thread into one blog post
http://www.teamliquid.net/blogs/viewblog.php?topic_id=208253
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Although I understand the general point of "non-team house" players, saying losing to Violet is pathetic in one paragraph and then saying Violet is one of best players in the tournament and it is amazing to win against him 2 paragraphs later is a bit hypocritical.
Although I agree that EG isn't showing AMAZING results, no other team is showing better results based from training.
What I mean is, for example, Vile had 2 great performers, but they were comparable to Huk and Idra of their respectable team.
I hope the EG teams does post some better results and helps justify other foreign teams to establish team houses. In order for that to happen, better results would be advisable. I just want us to be a bit more objective in judging them as I do feel overall they had the best team performance.
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Well - I do agree with it not being very smart/polite to put the EG-house part in the article - It dosn't really fit into the context of the article, it just seems that Heyoka threw it in there for no apparent reason - Given the position Teamliquid has relative to EG, I think it's a bad move.
However, I do actually agree with what Heyoka is saying - I had hoped this house would greatly improve the EG-players, but so far it hasn't really been the case.. In fact, it can seem like they are actually falling behind apart from idrA who's been up and down, after definitely being ~top-5 in the world when he joined the team back in 2010. HuK & Puma hasnt spent much more than a week total there, afaik so its abit hard to point at them for the performance boost.
With the EG-SlayerS partnership up, and Puma idrA, DeMuslim and HuK going over there, I'm having a hard time seeing the justification for it  I hope that EG has a plan for NA Starcraft, and not just going for the Koreans now after that they have invested in the SlayerS-partnership.. However, if you look at ROI, it is probably better business for them to expand and increase the support for their roster in Korea, than running the EG-house in NA and thats what worries me.
I obviously can't speak for Heyoka, but the reason why im mentioning this is not because Im a diehard Liquid fan and I want to smacktalk EG; It's because I genuinely am a fan of what they did with the house and I really want it to succeed so that every team wants to have an EG-house and right now, I'm just not seeing it
Just throwing it in there that it might not be TL vs. EG that motivated Heyoka to mention it..
Edit: Just saw that it was confusedcrib who wrote the segment and not Heyoka, my mistake
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On November 28 2011 21:17 ELA wrote:Well - I do agree with it not being very smart/polite to put the EG-house part in the article - It dosn't really fit into the context of the article, it just seems that Heyoka threw it in there for no apparent reason - Given the position Teamliquid has relative to EG, I think it's a bad move. However, I do actually agree with what Heyoka is saying - I had hoped this house would greatly improve the EG-players, but so far it hasn't really been the case.. In fact, it can seem like they are actually falling behind apart from idrA who's been up and down, after definitely being ~top-5 in the world when he joined the team back in 2010. HuK & Puma hasnt spent much more than a week total there, afaik so its abit hard to point at them for the performance boost. With the EG-SlayerS partnership up, and Puma idrA, DeMuslim and HuK going over there, I'm having a hard time seeing the justification for it I hope that EG has a plan for NA Starcraft, and not just going for the Koreans now after that they have invested in the SlayerS-partnership.. However, if you look at ROI, it is probably better business for them to expand and increase the support for their roster in Korea, than running the EG-house in NA and thats what worries me. I obviously can't speak for Heyoka, but the reason why im mentioning this is not because Im a diehard Liquid fan and I want to smacktalk EG; It's because I genuinely am a fan of what they did with the house and I really want it to succeed so that every team wants to have an EG-house and right now, I'm just not seeing it Just throwing it in there that it might not be TL vs. EG that motivated Heyoka to mention it..
heyoka is article editor, the writer in question is actually confusedcrib
but it doesnt really change your post argument so it doesnt matter :D
edit: nvm
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On November 28 2011 21:12 skyrunner wrote:Show nested quote +On November 28 2011 20:55 jmbthirteen wrote:On November 28 2011 20:49 skyrunner wrote:On November 28 2011 20:30 jmbthirteen wrote:On November 28 2011 20:23 skyrunner wrote:On November 28 2011 20:15 jmbthirteen wrote:On November 28 2011 20:10 skyrunner wrote:On November 28 2011 19:55 Zlasher wrote:On November 28 2011 19:46 skyrunner wrote:On November 28 2011 19:33 Zlasher wrote:
[quote]
I didn't say he hasn't done anything, but since then have his results been expected out of practicing with oGs for so long? Asking "Should Team Evil Geniuses Have Established a North American Team House?" is the same as asking if Jinro deserves to be practicing there, its absolutely ludicrous. Jinro 100% deserves to be practicing with oGs and is a top foreign contender. Just like there is absolutely no doubt that EG should have formed the house, why NOT form the house. Jinro is not a good example. Neither is TLO's house in sweden. That wasn't a even a teamhouse, it was just a bunch if friends living and practicing together, completely different from the EG house wich formed for the reason of making the eg members better. I can't speak for EG but I'm pretty sure the Team House was formed in order to give their players an opportunity to truly become full time players and not live in the esports model of pre 2010. It also creates a central hub for their business as well as media production to occur, along with that, the reason is to give the players the practice environment of a Korean pro-house while still being in the West, where esports has had the explosion, not in Korea. The goal is not to here and now outright make players better, a few walls and a roof can't do that, but it can provide the scenario to get better. After 3-4 months of being in the house can we really say any of those players have gotten worse? Not only are they all streaming now but we, once again, have seen Idra break out of a slump, something a team house hasn't done for other players on other teams with the opportunity to be in a team house. That's just the most obvious example of someone who's gotten better as a result. Not to mention how can we possibly be judging ALL of these houses based on one event? When you look at a list of the players who went two and out. Actually im pretty sure it was specifically stated at the time the teamhouse was formed, that it was to make the players better by practicing in a house together. That's also what you were (and is still is) arguing for. I have said all along that it might be other reasons to have a team house, so it's kinda funny you're telling me that. There just is nothing that indicates that most of the eg players have benefited from the house, and you can't compare it to any other house saying "well look at those guys they haven't benefited from their house either" - because their just isn't any similar house to the EG house. The fact that idra was even in a slump tells us that he was a good player already. Did he break out of the slump because of the EG house? maybe, maybe not. Does ONE PLAYER breaking out of a slump justify having a teamhouse? If you only have it to get more results and no one else is, then i would say "No". So you are just against teamhouses then right? Not just the EG one. I mean who is to say how good MC could be living outside the oGs house. ME? No im not against teamhouses. NO im NOT against EG's house. plz read. There is alot to indicate that the ogs house makes their players better. Not when it comes to EG. Now obv you can never say for sure. Both jinro and huk became very good after living at the ogs house. No eg player has showing noticably better results since moving to the house. Maybe idra. How has the oGs house indicated it makes their players better than the EG house? How do we know what those players would have done if they lived somewhere else? The same question you ask about the EG players. No one truly knows. But we do know that players have improved since they moved into the houses. Your argument doesn't really make sense. My argument? How are you using "my" argument against me by claiming the same thing but it doesn't adhere to your argument??? Im saying that we can't truly know how the teamhouse has affected these players skill level. You are saying the same, so what's the problem? When we discuss the teamhouses we have to look past that. Ogs house has made alot of players succesful, for example huk and jinro has done great AFTER joining the house. No one on EG has started doing really good after joining the house. See there? See the comparison? Nothing indicates that the EG house is making their players better, you can't say that about the ogs house. No, I'm not using your argument, I'm applying your argument to a house you said does help when you have no proof that it does to show that its a bad argument. Its way too early to say the EG house isn't producing results and not worth it. How can you say no one in the EG house started doing well after moving into the house? Idra started winning, DeMuslim has been doing great. Axslav and Machine have both improved their play, posting better results than before too. Sure, nothing indicates they are doing better if you ignore their improvements. I know you think you weren't using it but you were. You said yourself "No one truly knows". Yeah, thank you for pointing out how bad my "argument" was then using it yourself. Notice how i put my "argument" in quotation marks? Yeah it's because that is NOT my argument. Haha jesus..... That's a "I might be wrong and there is no way to know it" thing. Stop trying to randomly twist shit i say and make a point out of it. Just as you did with the "so you're against teamhouses herp derp". Then just hop on to something else when you are proven wrong. Ogs has produced a shitload of great players. EG house hasn't. That is my argument, and you can't argue how much better huk and jinro got after practicing there. Huk, puma and idra was good before practicing at the EG house. Demulsim was injured and he isn't anymore that's why he has gotten better. Machine and Axslav has always been solid players, can't say they've been doing any better lately. It is true that it's hard to judge after this short time. Still that's what we're doing (yes even you are, but you wouldn't contradict yourself would you?). I can't see into the future, sorry, i can only look at their performance so far.
You are ignoring the improvements EG is making. Why are you even talking about Huk and Puma when they aren't in the house? Idra is WAY better now. His ZvT is world class right now. Thats remarkable for a player not training in Korea. Yes he was good before, but it was also very early on in the game. The skill level of sc2 has risen, and while in the EG house, Idra has taken his near the top, somewhere he was falling from before the team house.
Its too early to say this house is a failure. Is it a massive success? No, but it is working. You continue to ignore that these players are improving while living in the house. Your whole argument is twisting shit, going on what ifs whether you think so or not.
And of course oGs has produce a ton of great players, their talent pool is way larger than EGs. Its a lot fucking easier to find great sc2 players in South Korea than the United States.
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Braavos36369 Posts
Should Team Evil Geniuses Have Established a North American Team House?
I'll be honest guys, I'm really afraid of getting flamed for this, but it's something that's concerned me for long enough that I'm just going to say it. EG did badly, and I can't help but feel that the team house is not paying for itself. Of course when you go to EG's coverage of the event, they point to having "solid results overall," but in reality, it's only ever their golden three that do well. Thanks to Idra, Huk, and Puma, EG always manages good PR, but the results of their other players are starting to get down right disturbing: iNcontroL lost to State and Strifecro, StrifeCro lost to syckness and RuFF13, Lzgamer lost to Catz and exMaSter. Only Machine and Axslav's results are remotely explainable, with losses to Nestea, dde, Gatored, and Violet. Even with those two players though, losses to Gatored and dde when you live in a team house are hard to justify.
I don't think this is very fair. Discounting the three best players on any team and the remaining players won't have good results,
and judging by MLG Providence, only Complexity did better than EG.
To be honest, if they want to justify having a team house, they need to work out a better system. While Puma and Idra seem to be practicing correctly, I can't shake the feeling that they would do well regardless of where they were living. EG needs to figure out what those two are doing right, and have everyone try to emulate it to avoid poor results. Having a team house in North America established a wonderful precedent, now they just need the results to match.
You have to remember it took HuK 4-5 months of hard practice in Korea at oGs to produce his first positive results, and it's been less time for EG thus far, and not even in Korea and not coupled with oGs. Also, I don't think Idra would be as good practicing by himself, and neither would Puma. Idra only started to break through after living in the team house, and Puma never was alone by himself (moving from TSL to EG) so how would you get the impression he'd be fine alone?
If you're going to call them out, it should probably be about moving Idra and Puma (their best two team-house players) away from the others who need the environment just as much if not more. But even that decision by their management is defensible.
But doing it now in an MLG article does feel out of place here, as even if it's an issue that is worth bringing up, it's probably best done outside the context of a specific MLG where EG didn't even perform poorly.
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These Pics are always so awesome !
Nice Coverage !
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On November 28 2011 21:04 Hot_Bid wrote:Show nested quote +On November 28 2011 20:55 snailz wrote:On November 28 2011 20:52 jmbthirteen wrote:On November 28 2011 20:48 Ktk wrote:On November 28 2011 20:19 jmbthirteen wrote:On November 28 2011 20:17 snailz wrote:its funny how full-time EG player goes on to bash TLAF.Liquid's players just because a member of TL.net community (relatively unimportant and random person) called out his own teammates in an article. i understand your emotions, but two wrongs don't make a right... On November 28 2011 19:42 iNcontroL wrote:On November 28 2011 19:40 GLLvz wrote:On November 28 2011 18:49 iNcontroL wrote:
wow
calling out EG house.. ok. Well TL abandoned korea cause their results were even worse there so maybe the investment of TL / oGs was a bad idea as well? A worse idea even...
but that'd be a dumb thing to say.. especially on an official article. We have had the house for 3 months and the results have gotten a helluva lot better but you are going to say it was a waste? get real. the TL house produced EG's best preforming player and your saying they are doing bad? Jinro 2 times 4th place @ GSL. And bashing TL's team because someone is stateing the obvious, this comming from a offical EG member and not a Random News writer on a community site. pretty low if you ask me!.. nobody is asking you. stay classy incontrol Where did incontrol bash liquid guys? And sure it was written by a "relatively unimportant and random person" but the TL staff approved this article and it represents TL as a whole. Mmm, if you scroll down a bit, I thought it says The opinions expressed by our users do not reflect the official position of TeamLiquid.net or its staff. ? This wasn't a user. It was a TL writer posted by a TL admin. This is TL staff material, not a user like you or me. jmbthirteen is absoultely right, TL users =/= TL writers/staff/admins. it is representative of TL.net opinions. which many people tend to agree with, even though they perhaps think it's still a dick move. so better to get it out in the open, or? i don't think even the writer knew what was better... after GSL expect 100 pages shitstorm from crazy fanboys, tho Not saying I agree or disagree with confusedcrib in his article, but let's be clear: something written on our front page is an opinion of the writer and not representative of everyone on TL or even everyone on the TL staff. We have a volunteer staff of ~200 people. Even confusedcrib said before he expected to get flamed for it, it's a relatively controversial opinion that obviously isn't some official statement by our entire site. If everyone has read our news lately there's a decent amount of op-ed-ish style opinion segments. tldr; never take one writers opinion to represent all of TL
Does not compute.
What you're saying is that there is no accountability for TL staff writers, and yet they get their content into featured, front page articles? Shouldn't there be some sort of editor who puts together the order and format of the fancy graphic-laden post that double checks the content of the writers to make sure nothing is too 'off the wall'? The explanation you gave seems like a cop out to me.
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On November 28 2011 21:04 Hot_Bid wrote:Show nested quote +On November 28 2011 20:55 snailz wrote:On November 28 2011 20:52 jmbthirteen wrote:On November 28 2011 20:48 Ktk wrote:On November 28 2011 20:19 jmbthirteen wrote:On November 28 2011 20:17 snailz wrote:its funny how full-time EG player goes on to bash TLAF.Liquid's players just because a member of TL.net community (relatively unimportant and random person) called out his own teammates in an article. i understand your emotions, but two wrongs don't make a right... On November 28 2011 19:42 iNcontroL wrote:On November 28 2011 19:40 GLLvz wrote:On November 28 2011 18:49 iNcontroL wrote:
wow
calling out EG house.. ok. Well TL abandoned korea cause their results were even worse there so maybe the investment of TL / oGs was a bad idea as well? A worse idea even...
but that'd be a dumb thing to say.. especially on an official article. We have had the house for 3 months and the results have gotten a helluva lot better but you are going to say it was a waste? get real. the TL house produced EG's best preforming player and your saying they are doing bad? Jinro 2 times 4th place @ GSL. And bashing TL's team because someone is stateing the obvious, this comming from a offical EG member and not a Random News writer on a community site. pretty low if you ask me!.. nobody is asking you. stay classy incontrol Where did incontrol bash liquid guys? And sure it was written by a "relatively unimportant and random person" but the TL staff approved this article and it represents TL as a whole. Mmm, if you scroll down a bit, I thought it says The opinions expressed by our users do not reflect the official position of TeamLiquid.net or its staff. ? This wasn't a user. It was a TL writer posted by a TL admin. This is TL staff material, not a user like you or me. jmbthirteen is absoultely right, TL users =/= TL writers/staff/admins. it is representative of TL.net opinions. which many people tend to agree with, even though they perhaps think it's still a dick move. so better to get it out in the open, or? i don't think even the writer knew what was better... after GSL expect 100 pages shitstorm from crazy fanboys, tho Not saying I agree or disagree with confusedcrib in his article, but let's be clear: something written on our front page is an opinion of the writer and not representative of everyone on TL or even everyone on the TL staff. We have a volunteer staff of ~200 people. Even confusedcrib said before he expected to get flamed for it, it's a relatively controversial opinion that obviously isn't some official statement by our entire site. If everyone has read our news lately there's a decent amount of op-ed-ish style opinion segments. tldr; never take one writers opinion to represent all of TL
I get what you are saying Hotbid, but when you have an article on the front page of your website, especially one written by a staff member, TL has a certain level of accountability on it. You guys had to approve of his article, the editor allowed it to be published. If a journalist at the new york times writes something that isn't true, the NYT has to pay for it even though it was just one person who wrote it.
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On November 28 2011 21:22 Hot_Bid wrote:Show nested quote +Should Team Evil Geniuses Have Established a North American Team House?
I'll be honest guys, I'm really afraid of getting flamed for this, but it's something that's concerned me for long enough that I'm just going to say it. EG did badly, and I can't help but feel that the team house is not paying for itself. Of course when you go to EG's coverage of the event, they point to having "solid results overall," but in reality, it's only ever their golden three that do well. Thanks to Idra, Huk, and Puma, EG always manages good PR, but the results of their other players are starting to get down right disturbing: iNcontroL lost to State and Strifecro, StrifeCro lost to syckness and RuFF13, Lzgamer lost to Catz and exMaSter. Only Machine and Axslav's results are remotely explainable, with losses to Nestea, dde, Gatored, and Violet. Even with those two players though, losses to Gatored and dde when you live in a team house are hard to justify. I don't think this is very fair. Discounting the three best players on any team and the remaining players won't have good results, and judging by MLG Providence, only Complexity did better than EG. Show nested quote +To be honest, if they want to justify having a team house, they need to work out a better system. While Puma and Idra seem to be practicing correctly, I can't shake the feeling that they would do well regardless of where they were living. EG needs to figure out what those two are doing right, and have everyone try to emulate it to avoid poor results. Having a team house in North America established a wonderful precedent, now they just need the results to match. You have to remember it took HuK 4-5 months of hard practice in Korea at oGs to produce his first positive results, and it's been less time for EG thus far, and not even in Korea and not coupled with oGs. Also, I don't think Idra would be as good practicing by himself, and neither would Puma. Idra only started to break through after living in the team house, and Puma never was alone by himself (moving from TSL to EG) so how would you get the impression he'd be fine alone? If you're going to call them out, it should probably be about moving Idra and Puma (their best two team-house players) away from the others who need the environment just as much if not more. But even that decision by their management is defensible. But doing it now in an MLG article does feel out of place here, as even if it's an issue that is worth bringing up, it's probably best done outside the context of a specific MLG where EG didn't even perform poorly.
very well said.
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I'm not going to defend EG or anything else because I'm a TL fan and, as a TL fan, I consider EG being the darkness, but Tyler himself said you need at least 6 months of full time practice to see the result. Their pro house will not leave result until some time, they need to get accustomed to the environment, build good practice shedule, respect them and then you got to leave some time until results actually emerge.
So the part about the EG house is actually unfair.
Edit : Hot_Bid's post explain everything like a boss.
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Braavos36369 Posts
On November 28 2011 21:24 seiferoth10 wrote:Show nested quote +On November 28 2011 21:04 Hot_Bid wrote:
Not saying I agree or disagree with confusedcrib in his article, but let's be clear: something written on our front page is an opinion of the writer and not representative of everyone on TL or even everyone on the TL staff. We have a volunteer staff of ~200 people. Even confusedcrib said before he expected to get flamed for it, it's a relatively controversial opinion that obviously isn't some official statement by our entire site. If everyone has read our news lately there's a decent amount of op-ed-ish style opinion segments.
tldr; never take one writers opinion to represent all of TL Does not compute. What you're saying is that there is no accountability for TL staff writers, and yet they get their content into featured, front page articles? Shouldn't there be some sort of editor who puts together the order and format of the fancy graphic-laden post that double checks the content of the writers to make sure nothing is too 'off the wall'? The explanation you gave seems like a cop out to me.
I did not say there is no accountability. I am saying someone can write something (in this case the EG part) that other writers or staff members disagree with.
On November 28 2011 21:25 jmbthirteen wrote:
I get what you are saying Hotbid, but when you have an article on the front page of your website, especially one written by a staff member, TL has a certain level of accountability on it. You guys had to approve of his article, the editor allowed it to be published. If a journalist at the new york times writes something that isn't true, the NYT has to pay for it even though it was just one person who wrote it.
I agree that when there is a blatant misrepresentation of facts then yes, we would take accountability for that. However, I am simply saying I don't think everyone on TL staff has to agree with everything posted in news. We can disagree (I posted why I disagreed above).
If you want to compare, I see it more like ESPN writers disagreeing with each other, which happens all the time, rather than some sort of blatant lie that we have to retract or take accountability for. The outrage about "TL saying X or Y" really shouldn't exist because I am certain not everyone agrees with a particular opinion.
I think a certain amount of outrage is directed at "TL in general" because we are very clear about aiming to post news as an unbiased source. It's extremely difficult to post news that is negative about other teams (especially EG) and in the future we should be very careful about it. I do not think this is a fair thing to do, to label TL entirely as biased because of the opinion of one writer. I'd say there's a good number of staff that would argue against what confusedcrib said in this article, and that's fine.
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On November 28 2011 21:22 jmbthirteen wrote:Show nested quote +On November 28 2011 21:12 skyrunner wrote:On November 28 2011 20:55 jmbthirteen wrote:On November 28 2011 20:49 skyrunner wrote:On November 28 2011 20:30 jmbthirteen wrote:On November 28 2011 20:23 skyrunner wrote:On November 28 2011 20:15 jmbthirteen wrote:On November 28 2011 20:10 skyrunner wrote:On November 28 2011 19:55 Zlasher wrote:On November 28 2011 19:46 skyrunner wrote:
[quote]
Jinro is not a good example. Neither is TLO's house in sweden. That wasn't a even a teamhouse, it was just a bunch if friends living and practicing together, completely different from the EG house wich formed for the reason of making the eg members better. I can't speak for EG but I'm pretty sure the Team House was formed in order to give their players an opportunity to truly become full time players and not live in the esports model of pre 2010. It also creates a central hub for their business as well as media production to occur, along with that, the reason is to give the players the practice environment of a Korean pro-house while still being in the West, where esports has had the explosion, not in Korea. The goal is not to here and now outright make players better, a few walls and a roof can't do that, but it can provide the scenario to get better. After 3-4 months of being in the house can we really say any of those players have gotten worse? Not only are they all streaming now but we, once again, have seen Idra break out of a slump, something a team house hasn't done for other players on other teams with the opportunity to be in a team house. That's just the most obvious example of someone who's gotten better as a result. Not to mention how can we possibly be judging ALL of these houses based on one event? When you look at a list of the players who went two and out. Actually im pretty sure it was specifically stated at the time the teamhouse was formed, that it was to make the players better by practicing in a house together. That's also what you were (and is still is) arguing for. I have said all along that it might be other reasons to have a team house, so it's kinda funny you're telling me that. There just is nothing that indicates that most of the eg players have benefited from the house, and you can't compare it to any other house saying "well look at those guys they haven't benefited from their house either" - because their just isn't any similar house to the EG house. The fact that idra was even in a slump tells us that he was a good player already. Did he break out of the slump because of the EG house? maybe, maybe not. Does ONE PLAYER breaking out of a slump justify having a teamhouse? If you only have it to get more results and no one else is, then i would say "No". So you are just against teamhouses then right? Not just the EG one. I mean who is to say how good MC could be living outside the oGs house. ME? No im not against teamhouses. NO im NOT against EG's house. plz read. There is alot to indicate that the ogs house makes their players better. Not when it comes to EG. Now obv you can never say for sure. Both jinro and huk became very good after living at the ogs house. No eg player has showing noticably better results since moving to the house. Maybe idra. How has the oGs house indicated it makes their players better than the EG house? How do we know what those players would have done if they lived somewhere else? The same question you ask about the EG players. No one truly knows. But we do know that players have improved since they moved into the houses. Your argument doesn't really make sense. My argument? How are you using "my" argument against me by claiming the same thing but it doesn't adhere to your argument??? Im saying that we can't truly know how the teamhouse has affected these players skill level. You are saying the same, so what's the problem? When we discuss the teamhouses we have to look past that. Ogs house has made alot of players succesful, for example huk and jinro has done great AFTER joining the house. No one on EG has started doing really good after joining the house. See there? See the comparison? Nothing indicates that the EG house is making their players better, you can't say that about the ogs house. No, I'm not using your argument, I'm applying your argument to a house you said does help when you have no proof that it does to show that its a bad argument. Its way too early to say the EG house isn't producing results and not worth it. How can you say no one in the EG house started doing well after moving into the house? Idra started winning, DeMuslim has been doing great. Axslav and Machine have both improved their play, posting better results than before too. Sure, nothing indicates they are doing better if you ignore their improvements. I know you think you weren't using it but you were. You said yourself "No one truly knows". Yeah, thank you for pointing out how bad my "argument" was then using it yourself. Notice how i put my "argument" in quotation marks? Yeah it's because that is NOT my argument. Haha jesus..... That's a "I might be wrong and there is no way to know it" thing. Stop trying to randomly twist shit i say and make a point out of it. Just as you did with the "so you're against teamhouses herp derp". Then just hop on to something else when you are proven wrong. Ogs has produced a shitload of great players. EG house hasn't. That is my argument, and you can't argue how much better huk and jinro got after practicing there. Huk, puma and idra was good before practicing at the EG house. Demulsim was injured and he isn't anymore that's why he has gotten better. Machine and Axslav has always been solid players, can't say they've been doing any better lately. It is true that it's hard to judge after this short time. Still that's what we're doing (yes even you are, but you wouldn't contradict yourself would you?). I can't see into the future, sorry, i can only look at their performance so far. You are ignoring the improvements EG is making. Why are you even talking about Huk and Puma when they aren't in the house? Idra is WAY better now. His ZvT is world class right now. Thats remarkable for a player not training in Korea. Yes he was good before, but it was also very early on in the game. The skill level of sc2 has risen, and while in the EG house, Idra has taken his near the top, somewhere he was falling from before the team house. Its too early to say this house is a failure. Is it a massive success? No, but it is working. You continue to ignore that these players are improving while living in the house. Your whole argument is twisting shit, going on what ifs whether you think so or not. And of course oGs has produce a ton of great players, their talent pool is way larger than EGs. Its a lot fucking easier to find great sc2 players in South Korea than the United States.
My gawd you really don't read what i say and you ignore completely ignore what's been discussed so far. Yes you twist my words. First with "so you're against teamhouses?" when i stated several times in this thread that i was for it. Second time with the whole "there is no way to say how they would have done w/o the teamhouse", wich was actually a counter argument to myself.
I agree that it's to early to say wether or not it's a failure, so please tell me where i said it's a failure? Yeah i didn't, twisting my words again. Zlasher and Incontrol compared ogs-tl house with the EG house. Huk and jinro improved ALOT after getting to the ogs house, no EG player has. The ogs house has been there for along time, EG house is rather new. You can't really compare them, yet inc and zlasher did. So if we were to compare them, i'd say ogs house has done better for the tl players than the eg house has for their players so far. Now there is no way to know for sure if jinro would have done as good just by laddering by himself, but i think not. You understand that?
And why do i talk about puma and huk? So that people won't bring them into this argument. As the guy you just quoted and agreed with did lol
clear you're heart haha you are obv very biased
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damn whoever shot those photos did a great job. love the black and white after party shots.
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Someone should change Artosis' TLPD picture to the first one in the article. Please.
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EPT
