With that, the 2011 MLG season has come to a close. This time the tournament was bigger, grander, and accordingly, had even more to talk about than normal.
NaNiwa opened the first day with a win over NesTea in the MLG Global Invitational, and went on to cause some minor controversy later in the tournament with some interesting manner decisions. The lovable Liquid Zerg HayprO showed his true killer side, with a win over NesTea and a solid 1-2 performance against MVP in back-to-back matches.
Of course, the real story of the tournament is Leenock. Young Leenock, after nearly missing his flight to Providence, crushed through the open bracket and fought many close battles to emerge the ultimate champion. Even after getting knocked to the loser's bracket by DongRaeGu, he played confidently and passionately, with aggression and tenacity rarely seen on stage. After busting through MMA, Idra, Huk, and MVP, he faced the man who sent him there and came back from a two game extended series deficit to make it through to the finals.
ESPORTS veteran and MLG translator, Hwanni spent the early part of the weekend saying he thought Leenock was going all the way. He was in the zone from the very start, playing to the top of his ability with a concentration and fearless attitude that is only born from absolute belief in one's own abilities.
In the finals he faced NaNiwa, who had taken down NesTea not once but twice in the last 48 hours. Fearless as ever, his aggressive responses to NaNi's fast expanding saw him through the first best-of-three and on to the extended series to make him the first player to win from the loser's bracket since HuK's win in MLG Raleigh 2010.
Here is how the top ten shook out. If you didn't have time to watch as many as you would like you can always check this thread for some unique and noteworthy games.
For me, Providence raised many more questions about the turbulence of E-sports than it answered. While a great tournament, Providence was pretty freaking weird. A middle of the road GSL performer took the whole tournament, a Swedish guy with no big tournament results in 6 months took second place, and Spanishiwa, dde, and State placed in the top thirty two...even though there were thirteen Koreans in the open bracket. I just don't know what to think anymore, the world of Starcraft is crumbling around me. While I ponder the collapse of the world, here are some things to ponder about the tournament.
Are Mvp and Nestea Still the Best Players in the World?
Up to this point, it's been pretty unanimous that Nestea and Mvp are the best two players in the entire world. Not only are they the best players in the world but they do not lose games. Ever. But the two gods showed their vulnerability at Providence.
I knew that the big - "g" Gods may actually be lower case ones when on Friday night Naniwa took them both out in the global invitational. Ah-hah! But a mere fluke, I thought as I sat atop the judging throne with Artosis, the greatest judgment-er of them all. As the tournament went on though, things got weird, as Nestea ended up taking twelfth place and Mvp fourth. Nestea first lost to Haypro and lost to Naniwa, again. But it's important to remember that in his run through the open bracket, Nestea did not lose a single game. As for Mvp, he similarly did not lose a single game going through the open bracket, but lost to MC, dropped a game to Haypro, and then got knocked out by Leenock.
After results like that, I don't know what I should be thinking anymore. I'm with Artosis on this one
Should Team Evil Geniuses Have Established a North American Team House?
I'll be honest guys, I'm really afraid of getting flamed for this, but it's something that's concerned me for long enough that I'm just going to say it. EG did badly, and I can't help but feel that the team house is not paying for itself. Of course when you go to EG's coverage of the event, they point to having "solid results overall," but in reality, it's only ever their golden three that do well. Thanks to Idra, Huk, and Puma, EG always manages good PR, but the results of their other players are starting to get down right disturbing: iNcontroL lost to State and Strifecro, StrifeCro lost to syckness and RuFF13, Lzgamer lost to Catz and exMaSter. Only Machine and Axslav's results are remotely explainable, with losses to Nestea, dde, Gatored, and Violet. Even with those two players though, losses to Gatored and dde when you live in a team house are hard to justify.
To be honest, if they want to justify having a team house, they need to work out a better system. While Puma and Idra seem to be practicing correctly, I can't shake the feeling that they would do well regardless of where they were living. EG needs to figure out what those two are doing right, and have everyone try to emulate it to avoid poor results. Having a team house in North America established a wonderful precedent, now they just need the results to match.
TL responses to reactions: Heyoka (Editor for this article):
We've reviewed the section of the article internally and while we believe that writers are entitled to expressing their opinions in TL articles, we should have exercised more care in allowing this to be posted. TL as a news site carries a heavier responsibility when it comes to talking about rival teams, and we should have recognized that before posting this article.
We believe that this topic (EG's teamhouse) is a worthwhile one to discuss, but we agree that one paragraph posted in an event recap is not the right place for it. It should have been posted in an editorial format that was clear and not where it was. The argument also should have been developed much further than a single paragraph.
In the future we hope to be more thorough with our editing process. We will be taking your feedback into account and we hope to avoid situations like this.
Perform well once, and it could be a fluke, do it twice, and you deserve recognition. At IEM New York, Gatored was able to take out Strelok, DongRaeGu, and oGsTop. At MLG Providence, Gatored took out Axslav and Ganzi, only losing to ViOlet and Leenock, two of the best players at the tournament. The guy is seriously becoming a PvT sniper, with his major tournament wins against Terran including Qxc, Strelok, Top, and now Ganzi. This guy is quickly gaining my attention for his results, and it would be a smart move to pay him more attention in the future.
This is the guy that took out Ganzi Photo Credit to omgyumyum.com's "omg Latern"
Hero or Huk?
Do I root for Huk or do I root for Hero? If both are streaming, who do I watch? If they decide to have a competition for who is more adorable, whose side do I take? Hero is improving at a jaw dropping rate, taking out Puma, Sjow, Ret, Puzzle, Jinro, Keen, and Sheth on his way through the tournament. And of course Huk is just the cutest little guy around. Even though he only managed to take out HerO for this tournament, he never really got the chance to prove himself, only losing to the first and second place winners.
If there is one thing I know, it's that there may now be a Hero Huk rivalry in affect. HerO finally managed to best Puma at MLG, and now it's time for him to focus on Huk. The rivalry is about more than just wins or losses, or even that it's TeamLiquid's former protoss star against our present one, it's about play style and results.
Hero and Huk both play Protoss similarly: willing to go all in, leaning towards gateway styles, and having some amazing control. They're both great players. Just be aware, you may soon be forced to pick a side
The Big Upsets
There were a lot of big wins that no one saw coming, and went uncasted on the main streams. A lot of these upsets were in the open bracket, showing that in this time of Starcraft, it may be true that no one is safe.
Going into the tournament, I don't think that many people would have predicted some of these close results. In a lot of ways, Providence made the “unbeatable” players look pretty beatable.
Rise of the "No Names"
If you hunt your way through the open bracket results, there are a lot of really weird things to see; results that imply the skill gap between top ladder players and lower tier professional players may be closing. The question of what it really means to be a pro gamer is getting less obvious, as more and more "no name" players snipe out top dogs to get their names out there.
Is the skill gap closing? Or was this just a bad tournament for the bigger name players that are listed above?
THE 2011 MILGIES
By zarepath
The 2011 Milgies Not to be confused with Milkis the translator, the Milgies are awards for the entire 2011 MLG season. Despite the connection to MLG, the actual Milgie awards are not shaped like X-Box controllers. Instead, they are manifest entirely within your own imagination, and are worth thousands of ESPORTS dollars. It surprises no one that they are universally coveted, and that Kanye West doesn't think that Taylor Swift deserves one.
The Decorah Eagles Milgie for best LR thread MLG Dallas was beset by more technical problems than any major SC2 tournament to date (other contenders: Blizzcon 2010 Invitational, NASL Grand Finals Day 1, IPL 3, and the PPSL). Because of the venue's poor internet, MLG was only able to stream a grand total of three matches over the entire Saturday. So what happens when you promise tens of thousands of Starcraft fans the greatest Starcraft of their lives, and then withhold it from them?
This happens, the Day 2 Live Report thread. The broken stream hammered spectators to desperation, and in their desperation, they turned to something they didn't fully understand: eagles. The thread is filled with eagle macros. Pictures of kittens jumping over streams. Fake MLG stream notices. The kind of shenanigans that no TL mod would ever tolerate in any other circumstance. But on that day, everyone had thrown up their hands, and this LR thread is a testament to the wanton abandon that filled the Starcraft void.
Winner: the MLG Dallas Day 2 Live Report Thread
The Keen's Applause Milgie for Best Ceremony When MLG introduced the Korean player exchange program, they didn't just bring the world's best gamers to their tournaments -- they also brought the world's best ceremonies. The most the West had offered until that point was IdrA flipping-off Huk. Post-injection, we got hadoukens, Boxer boxing, and throat-slitting (not literal). (As far as we know.) But the most elaborate, hilarious, and nonsensical ceremony has to be this:
Winner: MC's Murloc Dance
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FvVAa5SV8b0
The Fantasy GG Milgie for Worst GG Timing
While we were never sure whether IdrA would win an MLG or not, no one doubted his ability to win this award. The real question is whether he wins it for GGing against hallucinated void rays, or for GGing after breaking MMA's tank line and was ahead on bases.
IdrA couldn't have known that MMA had destroyed his own command center, and so it was harder for him to know that he was ahead. And yet against Huk, he should've seen that the void rays were doing no damage to his corrupters, and that Huk simply didn't have the infrastructure to produce them. However, IdrA ended up beating Huk in the extended series, while the loss to MMA was the beginning of the end for him. Also: "Wait -- WHAT?"
Winner: IdrA's GG against MMA
The Dante Alighieri Milgie for Open Bracket From Hell It's no secret that the open brackets got more and more difficult with every tournament. Koreans began to realize that a good three-day run at an MLG would pay them a lot more than a month-long Code A run against harder opponents. Other big names started coming in the hope of securing a seed for Providence. But because the prize money was so end-loaded into MLG Providence, it comes as no surprise that its open bracket was by far the most nightmarish, including more Koreans than any other tournament. Winner: MLG Providence
The Olympic Milgie for Best Event MLG Providence opened with a fantastic finish to the Global Invitational, skipped the often drama-deflating Pool Play, and went straight into the cutthroat Open Bracket with the most competitive international tournament to date. But all that cannot match the excitement that MLG Columbus brought. After the Dallas debacle, MLG brought in a satellite truck, soundproof booths, two concurrent streams, Tastosis, and Koreans for MLG Columbus. They did everything within their power to make Starcraft 2 the flagship game for both their circuit and for ESPORTS, and they did it all at once. Everyone came out of that tournament excited about MLG, Starcraft, and ESPORTS as a whole.
Winner: MLG Columbus
The Taht's Just Halo Milgie for Most Memorable Game
There are a lot of contenders for this coveted Milgie. IdrA 2-0ing MC to welcome the Koreans, countering stalkers with roaches and MC's own immortals. Any of IdrA's premature GG episodes. Any game with Kiwikaki's mothership use. Bomber's MULE bombs, nuke cancels, and scan clouds. Any of the amazing hidden jewels from the open bracket games, such as Avilo's 50-plus nukes in one game. But the game that will be remembered most for how two players played their absolute best against each other, giving no ground and making almost zero mistakes, has to be Boxer and Rain's first game.
It went on for over an hour, splitting the map and tech-switching countless times until they both had enormous air armies with multiple ravens, using hunter-seeker missiles, nukes, thors, yamato cannons, and PDDs. Both players refused to give up and it ended with Boxer failing to produce a stalemate. The game is made even more memorable by the fact that Boxer came back to win the series 2-1, drawing the largest single crowd cheer for any individual player.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PUv2xfUUsiI
Winner: Boxer versus Rain, Game 1
The Great Bambino Milgie for Most Dominant Performance Leenock's hit list is easily the most impressive of any MLG champion. Then consider that he climbed from the bottom of the most difficult open bracket. It would be hard to give this Milgie to anyone else.
But several of his wins were 2-1 victories. Leenock didn't look untouchable, just better. Now consider Naniwa's first MLG in Dallas. He likewise climbed through the open bracket, but was 26-0 in games until the championship, where he lost 2 more games to the always-volatile Kiwikaki in the always-volatile PvP matchup. He ended with a record of 28-2.
While Leenock's wins were more impressive, and he proved that he is the better player this last weekend, Naniwa was much more dominant over his competition than Leenock was in Providence. MLG Dallas began a string of Bo3's that Naniwa would win in a row, proving to the world that he was much more than just the TSL3 runner-up.
Winner: Naniwa in MLG Dallas
Thank you, MLG, for making this year of Starcraft 2 a memorable one. We look forward to a new format and a new year of great ESPORTS.
On November 28 2011 16:50 Ryusei-R1 wrote: Haypro beating Nestea isn't considered an upset?
Hell no it isn't because HAYPRO IS GOD
On November 28 2011 16:52 Craminit wrote: how is it haypro was in none of the big upsets?
Seriously, was there anyone that didn't see Haypro's win coming? I think that I now understand how game developers feel when their Easter eggs are discovered so quickly, little fun details are discovered so fast on the internet!
None of these results are a surprise, except maybe Forbs breaking out. Everyone else who won was pretty much already the favorite, if you follow the scene semi-closely.
Do not agree at all. And most of them aren't just top ladder either, they are on sponsored teams too, so "rise of the nonames" is quite inappropriate.
MLG Dallas was a wake up call of sorts. The kick to Sundance's butt that got MLG going into the landmark events they are. Here's to an even more incredible 2012!
The only reason DDE and Spanishwa finished so high over some koreans has to do with the brackets, not skill level. Placing really is volatile in the open bracket, and one bracket had like 5-6 koreans while others had none.
With the way the brackets and seedings were set up for MLG, it's not a very good tournament to judge who the best player in the tournament was off placing aside from leenock who came from the open bracket and had a very tough road. Idra won 1 series out of 3 and he placed 8th. Ret went 0-2 and placed 15th just to put it into perspective.
On November 28 2011 16:53 Sadistx wrote: I'm sad that you guys didn't mention this guy, who, while not winning Providence, did at 15 years of age, come 24th in the most stacked MLG to date.
None of these results are a surprise, except maybe Forbs breaking out. Everyone else who won was pretty much already the favorite, if you follow the scene semi-closely.
Do not agree at all. And most of them aren't just top ladder either, they are on sponsored teams too, so "rise of the nonames" is quite inappropriate.
The problem is that most of these "names" have names for other reasons than their play...
There were a lot of big wins that no one saw coming, and went uncasted on the main streams. A lot of these upsets were in the open bracket, showing that in this time of Starcraft, it may be true that no one is safe.
Going into the tournament, I don't think that many people would have predicted some of these close results. In a lot of ways, Providence made the “unbeatable” players look pretty beatable.
Rise of the "No Names"
If you hunt your way through the open bracket results, there are a lot of really weird things to see; results that imply the skill gap between top ladder players and lower tier professional players may be closing. The question of what it really means to be a pro gamer is getting less obvious, as more and more "no name" players snipe out top dogs to get their names out there.
Is the skill gap closing? Or was this just a bad tournament for the bigger name players that are listed above?
TL articles are usually gold, but this section is one of the most inaccurate ones I've ever read. Most of these 'big upsets' are not, and some of them aren't even upsets at all. I don't even know what to say about calling dde an unknown.
On November 28 2011 16:53 Sadistx wrote: I'm sad that you guys didn't mention this guy, who, while not winning Providence, did at 15 years of age, come 24th in the most stacked MLG to date.
None of these results are a surprise, except maybe Forbs breaking out. Everyone else who won was pretty much already the favorite, if you follow the scene semi-closely.
Do not agree at all. And most of them aren't just top ladder either, they are on sponsored teams too, so "rise of the nonames" is quite inappropriate.
Have to agree, only upsets there are binski, ruff13 and forbs, all the rest were the favourites and not nonames maybe if you know little to nothing about the NA scene but even still dde, ostojiy, state and gatored are widely known at this stage.
The after party pics were amazing btw more of that style please!
Should Team Evil Geniuses Have Established a North American Team House?
I'll be honest guys, I'm really afraid of getting flamed for this, but it's something that's concerned me for long enough that I'm just going to say it. EG did really badly, again, and I can't help but feel that the team house is not paying for itself. Of course when you go to EG's coverage of the event, they point to having "solid results overall," but in reality, it's only ever their golden three that do well. Thanks to Idra, Huk, and Puma, EG always manages to scrape together good PR, but the results of their other players are starting to get down right disturbing: iNcontroL lost to State and Strifecro, StrifeCro lost to syckness and RuFF13, Lzgamer lost to Catz and exMaSter. Only Machine and Axslav's results are remotely explainable, with losses to Nestea, dde, Gatored, and Violet. Even with those two players though, losses to Gatored and dde when you live in a team house are hard to justify.
To be honest, if they want to justify having a team house, they need to get their shit together. While Puma and Idra seem to be practicing correctly, I can't shake the feeling that they would do well regardless of where they were living. EG needs to figure out what those two are doing right, and have everyone try to emulate it to avoid such embarrassing results. Having a team house in North America established a wonderful precedent, now they just need the results to match.
I've also been questioning this, in fact I asked Axslav for a replay pack of EG's in house games. He said something of the lines that no such pack exists, because EG doesn't play in-house practice games vs each other. He also mentioned that even if such replay pack existed, EG would not share it (which made me sad . I really hope someone from EG can answer if this is true and also explain why they don't play in-house games against each other.
The "team house" doesn't matter as much as the practice partners do. A lot of people practice from their homes in korea including MVP and Nestea, but these guys have like 50 top level players to practice with. Who are you gonna practice with in NA? There's probably only a handful that can simulate the skill level of top level players, and even players of code A standards are far and few in between.
Should Team Evil Geniuses Have Established a North American Team House?
I'll be honest guys, I'm really afraid of getting flamed for this, but it's something that's concerned me for long enough that I'm just going to say it. EG did really badly, again, and I can't help but feel that the team house is not paying for itself. Of course when you go to EG's coverage of the event, they point to having "solid results overall," but in reality, it's only ever their golden three that do well. Thanks to Idra, Huk, and Puma, EG always manages to scrape together good PR, but the results of their other players are starting to get down right disturbing: iNcontroL lost to State and Strifecro, StrifeCro lost to syckness and RuFF13, Lzgamer lost to Catz and exMaSter. Only Machine and Axslav's results are remotely explainable, with losses to Nestea, dde, Gatored, and Violet. Even with those two players though, losses to Gatored and dde when you live in a team house are hard to justify.
To be honest, if they want to justify having a team house, they need to get their shit together. While Puma and Idra seem to be practicing correctly, I can't shake the feeling that they would do well regardless of where they were living. EG needs to figure out what those two are doing right, and have everyone try to emulate it to avoid such embarrassing results. Having a team house in North America established a wonderful precedent, now they just need the results to match.
I've also been questioning this, in fact I asked Axslav for a replay pack of EG's in house games. He said something of the lines that no such pack exists, because EG doesn't play in-house practice games vs each other. He also mentioned that even if such replay pack existed, EG would not share it (which made me sad . I really hope someone from EG can answer if this is true and also explain why they don't play in-house games against each other.
Haha if they dont do inhouse practice then whats the point. thats the whole reason fir having a team house!
I definitely disagree about the team house. IdrA has been on a tear, he lost 2 Bo3s and now the house is worthless...it takes a long time for that much practice to kick in. imo Axslav would've made it to at least Championship Sunday if he didn't hit his brick wall, viOLet, in the open bracket. And besides, saying it hasn't paid for itself when IdrA's won IEM China and the ASUS ROG, and with so many players on the main stage at MLG, financially I can't see how EG couldn't have gotten the ROI from those tournaments to easily make up for the team house.
Should Team Evil Geniuses Have Established a North American Team House?
I'll be honest guys, I'm really afraid of getting flamed for this, but it's something that's concerned me for long enough that I'm just going to say it. EG did really badly, again, and I can't help but feel that the team house is not paying for itself. Of course when you go to EG's coverage of the event, they point to having "solid results overall," but in reality, it's only ever their golden three that do well. Thanks to Idra, Huk, and Puma, EG always manages to scrape together good PR, but the results of their other players are starting to get down right disturbing: iNcontroL lost to State and Strifecro, StrifeCro lost to syckness and RuFF13, Lzgamer lost to Catz and exMaSter. Only Machine and Axslav's results are remotely explainable, with losses to Nestea, dde, Gatored, and Violet. Even with those two players though, losses to Gatored and dde when you live in a team house are hard to justify.
To be honest, if they want to justify having a team house, they need to get their shit together. While Puma and Idra seem to be practicing correctly, I can't shake the feeling that they would do well regardless of where they were living. EG needs to figure out what those two are doing right, and have everyone try to emulate it to avoid such embarrassing results. Having a team house in North America established a wonderful precedent, now they just need the results to match.
I've also been questioning this, in fact I asked Axslav for a replay pack of EG's in house games. He said something of the lines that no such pack exists, because EG doesn't play in-house practice games vs each other. He also mentioned that even if such replay pack existed, EG would not share it (which made me sad . I really hope someone from EG can answer if this is true and also explain why they don't play in-house games against each other.
Haha if they dont do inhouse practice then whats the point. thats the whole reason fir having a team house!
It's not though. They do inhouse practice but not like Korean teams where they do team ranking matches each day. Axslav says they mostly do their own thing, I know from his stream that Axslav practices with Machine a ton and IdrA sometimes. The main point of a teamhouse is because you have people sitting next to you that constantly motivate you to play more when previously you wouldn't have. There is no way in hell the EG players would be playing a minimum of 8 hours a day if they were still living by themselves.
Why didn't vVv get any love? They had to of had 15 people at the event, and whenever one of their players would play, they would have around 6 of them behind them cheering them on and supporting them.
On November 28 2011 17:37 Itsmedudeman wrote: The "team house" doesn't matter as much as the practice partners do. A lot of people practice from their homes in korea including MVP and Nestea, but these guys have like 50 top level players to practice with. Who are you gonna practice with in NA? There's probably only a handful that can simulate the skill level of top level players, and even players of code A standards are far and few in between.
Team house is much more than practice partners. The central part of the team house is a coach - something that i never heard the EG had in their establishment. The coach that creates personal training schedules - get appropriate practice partners that would force the player to work on his bad points, supervise its enforcement, manages the time of players, prepares strategies for the upcoming matches (heck that won't work with most western tournaments but lets leave it here). We never heard anything about such a person in both the EG and the Swedish pro houses..
Therefore from now on EG Team house should be called - EG Players Dorm. (cause that what it is essentially)
On November 28 2011 17:54 TBone- wrote: Why didn't vVv get any love? They had to of had 15 people at the event, and whenever one of their players would play, they would have around 6 of them behind them cheering them on and supporting them.
Probably because I, and I assume everyone else, has no idea about what kind of results they had?
The EG team house write up is unnecessary. I think after writing something as biased sounding as that, you need to take a look at your "homeboys" on team liquid?!? they are in the same boat as EG, well from my point of view they are worse off. You have one guy being the "hero". Without Hero what would TL's results look like??? a couple Ret 6th places or a sheth 12th? let it be known i love team liquid and all they do for the starcraft community and e-sports as a whole, but when i read an article calling out a team because you don't think their winnings justifies them buying the team house....it just sounds like you're grasping at straws and trying to take attention away from your own. Other than Haypro's well deserved 7th place at providence and Hero's Dreamhack win and maybe a 6th at mlg....What else does Team Liquid have to boast against Team EG?
The answer is simple....NOTHING is comparable between the two when it comes to team players finishes. EG wins outright, hands down, and whatever analogy you want to throw in there. Sure, it may be Puma, Idra, and Huk....but i'll take those top 3 over just 1 guy any day.
I think the part about EG in the write up is kind of ignorant. You can't train some people to be better. Fact is, these players have been paid and treated the amongst the best of other players in the world and they're still average. Players who are talented and get results deserve the kind of support EG gives, not Incontrol/Strifecro/and others. They should absolutely not be recontracted, when you consider that people like Gatored (if you're looking within the US) have shown themselves to be vastly more talented, or people like JYP/Killer are teamless, as of recently.
On November 28 2011 17:59 i am maverick wrote: The EG team house write up is unnecessary. I think after writing something as biased sounding as that, you need to take a look at your "homeboys" on team liquid?!? they are in the same boat as EG, well from my point of view they are worse off. You have one guy being the "hero". Without Hero what would TL's results look like??? a couple Ret 6th places or a sheth 12th? let it be known i love team liquid and all they do for the starcraft community and e-sports as a whole, but when i read an article calling out a team because you don't think their winnings justifies them buying the team house....it just sounds like you're grasping at straws and trying to take attention away from your own. Other than Haypro's well deserved 7th place at providence and Hero's Dreamhack win and maybe a 6th at mlg....What else does Team Liquid have to boast against Team EG?
The answer is simple....NOTHING is comparable between the two when it comes to team players finishes. EG wins outright, hands down, and whatever analogy you want to throw in there. Sure, it may be Puma, Idra, and Huk....but i'll take those top 3 over just 1 guy any day.
All of Liquid's 'homegrown' player results (let's exclude Puma, HuK, Hero, Zenio from this because they have done most of their SC2 development outside of EG and Liquid) are better than all of EG's 'homegrown' player results, in both this tournament and over the course of the entire year. Fact.
Liquid does not have a team house and does not pay their players as much as EG. Fact.
Incontrol, Strifecro, LZgamer, and to a lesser extent, Axslav, do not really deserve to be considered pro-gamers based on results given they are consistently beaten by people who get comparatively no support for their e-sports careers. I believe that is the point.
What is up with the write-up by confusedcrib? The EG section is such a blatant piece of hate:
I'll be honest guys, I'm really afraid of getting flamed for this, but it's something that's concerned me for long enough that I'm just going to say it.
Translation: I'm about to flame EG.
EG did really badly, again, and I can't help but feel that the team house is not paying for itself.
Didn't they have three players in the top eight at the last MLG? Is that the previous bad performance you are referring too? Also isn't the fact that Idra and Huk finished with the top two seeds this MLG season an indicator of an overall strong performance throughout the season?
Of course when you go to EG's coverage of the event, they point to having "solid results overall," but in reality, it's only ever their golden three that do well.
Every Korean team that has a house has a few star players and a bunch of no-names. Why are you holding EG to a different standard?
Thanks to Idra, Huk, and Puma, EG always manages to scrape together good PR, but the results of their other players are starting to get down right disturbing: iNcontroL lost to State and Strifecro, StrifeCro lost to syckness and RuFF13, Lzgamer lost to Catz and exMaSter.
Hating on EG isn't enough, now you have to shit on a bunch of other North American players.
Only Machine and Axslav's results are remotely explainable, with losses to Nestea, dde, Gatored, and Violet. Even with those two players though, losses to Gatored and dde when you live in a team house are hard to justify.
Are you going to ask Slayers how they justify Ganzi's loss to Gatored as well? DongRaeGu and TOP both lost to Gatored at IEM New York. Maybe they should be kicked out of the MVP and OGS houses.
To be honest, if they want to justify having a team house, they need to get their shit together.
This sentence reads like the most downvoted comment in a /r/starcraft thread. After only one paragraph you've decided to just outright flame EG. Good job.
It's a crime to have an opinion (in regards to EG, apparently)... He makes a great point... They purchased some players and those are the only ones who seem to show signs of success.... while, the rest of the house lingers at the bottom. it's nothing to get butthurt about, it's true.
I think "MLG photo of the year" should go to that one of Boxer practicing in Orlando, but the black and white one of Nani, Hero and Ret is a pretty close second.
On November 28 2011 17:54 TBone- wrote: Why didn't vVv get any love? They had to of had 15 people at the event, and whenever one of their players would play, they would have around 6 of them behind them cheering them on and supporting them.
Because the only "good" result they had was Ruff who made it to the last round of the losers bracket. Everyone else lost before then in like Round 4 or something. Nothing noteworthy.
I also disagree with the team house statement. I bet if Idra didn't have the team house he would still be playing his 4 hours a day like he did on his own. I imagine just having people who play starcraft around you is a lot more motivating then being home by yourself (or with family).
Pretty much I disagree with your whole EG thing but whatever if that's what you think ok.
On November 28 2011 18:12 UNeeK wrote: It's a crime to have an opinion (in regards to EG, apparently)... He makes a great point... They purchased some players and those are the only ones who seem to show signs of success.... while, the rest of the house lingers at the bottom. it's nothing to get butthurt about, it's true.
The same could be said of every other team house in the world. The section is completely out of place.
Great write-up again but seriously... TL needs to have at least a short breaking news article on the front page after the big event. It's fine to release the big story later as long as there is something right after the finals. It doesn't need to contain spoilers in the headline but simply to indicate that something big has happened.
I'm sure you're discussing this and have plans to address it but still..
Great write up man, but I gotta say, a couple of things were a bit off lol..
iNcontroL losing to State for instance is not a surprise at all to me.. State has been playing amazingly as of late while iNcontrol seems to be focusing on other things more than he is on SC2.
Also, literally 0 of the upsets, except for Gatored over Ganzi and Nani over Nestea, were "big". Some of them aren't even upsets. Wasn't surprised at all to see that HerO 2-1'd Puzzle, and that Major 2-1'd Artist. Almost all of the korean v korean matches can go either way if both players are Coda A-Code S caliber, so none of them IMO can really be considered upsets unless it's against the TOP TOP players like NesTea and MVP.
Either way, it was awesome to see Leenock do so well, he's so cuddly :3
I feel a little bit envious though, since I live in Texas and I went to the MLG Dallas that sort of.. "woke up".. Sundance. After that, MLG has been 1000x better... Guess I just have to wait till MLG Dallas next year.
I think the comment about the EG house is pretty interesting. I think an interesting point to make is the quality of the players on EG like there is the big 3 HuK, idra and puma and they are very great players and get a lot of results dreamhack and mlg are testament of that they are always in or around the top 10 or like HuK winning the entire thing.
Then look at the others in EG and in all fairness they are all really awesome guys and I watch incontrol's stream a good bit he is a real personality and I really like him but other than the top 3 in EG the others just dont get results. Then look at who actually practices in the EG house its incontrol, demuslim, machine and strifecro(?). Idra is in korea and he goes to a lot of events so he isn't really there too much to train, id presume HuK and Puma are in korea full time and they also travel a lot. So what is the point in the house at all if the team doesn't have the quality players to train there? Also one last point about the training thing for them it seems like they are laddering a lot more than customing at least incontrol is and I think thats a mistake laddering doesn't exactly teach you much at that level like how can playing deezer or combatex over and over again improve you as a player?
Ill end on a thought the idea of team houses is to practice and talk about strats full time and improve the people in the house by saturation but the players have to be in or around the same level and by playing against each other and working as a team to figure out how to handle certain builds or pick up cute things to do that will add to your game. So if a team like liquid who have mainly all of their players around the same skill level made a team house it would be a little more successful. Like if you compare if EG played against each other over and over again it would be idra, puma and huk winning every game vs the others then them 3 having an epic series.
On November 28 2011 17:59 i am maverick wrote: The EG team house write up is unnecessary. I think after writing something as biased sounding as that, you need to take a look at your "homeboys" on team liquid?!? they are in the same boat as EG, well from my point of view they are worse off. You have one guy being the "hero". Without Hero what would TL's results look like??? a couple Ret 6th places or a sheth 12th? let it be known i love team liquid and all they do for the starcraft community and e-sports as a whole, but when i read an article calling out a team because you don't think their winnings justifies them buying the team house....it just sounds like you're grasping at straws and trying to take attention away from your own. Other than Haypro's well deserved 7th place at providence and Hero's Dreamhack win and maybe a 6th at mlg....What else does Team Liquid have to boast against Team EG?
The answer is simple....NOTHING is comparable between the two when it comes to team players finishes. EG wins outright, hands down, and whatever analogy you want to throw in there. Sure, it may be Puma, Idra, and Huk....but i'll take those top 3 over just 1 guy any day.
All of Liquid's 'homegrown' player results (let's exclude Puma, HuK, Hero, Zenio from this because they have done most of their SC2 development outside of EG and Liquid) are better than all of EG's 'homegrown' player results, in both this tournament and over the course of the entire year. Fact.
Liquid does not have a team house and does not pay their players as much as EG. Fact.
Incontrol, Strifecro, LZgamer, and to a lesser extent, Axslav, do not really deserve to be considered pro-gamers based on results given they are consistently beaten by people who get comparatively no support for their e-sports careers. I believe that is the point.
I think Idra would be considered the most accomplished of the "homegrown" on both teams.
And what the write up left out is DeMusliM who has benefited GREATLY from the team house. He just hasnt been at the last two MLGs, but at Raleigh, he tore it up and got a Code A seed. He's also done very well in NASL (only loss due to no show) and pulled a top 8 at i44 after a break no less.
EG did about as well as I expected at this past MLG. I think Idra and Huk can do better, but they still got top 8 in a ridiculous field. And Puma was on a tear until he had to face Idra. The rest of the team just isn't on that level, not many players are. People used to say EG was only Idra. Then just Idra and Puma. Then just Idra, Puma and Huk. Now they are just Idra, Puma, Huk and DeMusliM. Seriously, how far is this going to go? Not many teams can stack up against that.
Let's be honest here, what is the last thing Jinro or TLO did? Liquid is being carried by Ret, Hero and to a slightly lesser extent Sheth. And only Ret is a 'homegrown' guy. Tyler, TLO and Jinro haven't done anything in months. I love those guys, but its the truth. Just like for Incontrol, StrifeCro, LZgamer, Axslav and Machine. EG has decisions to make on their roster. I'd say Incontrol (love him or hate him, he does so much for that team outside his play. his coaching is very underrated imo) and Machine are safe.
They have still only been in the house for what 5 months now? And more recently they have moved to the EU and KR ladders and Geoff was saying Puma sets them up with practice partners on KR. Team houses aren't overnight things, they take time. And some players just wont cut it. To say the house hasn't been worth it, is well, dumb. Its too soon to tell. EG is arguably the strongest non Korean team right now and if thats because their top 4 carry them, well is that really a bad thing?
Confusedcrib must only watch the GSL or be European or something because he knows next to nothing about the North American scene.
He spends like 50% of the upper portion of the article talking badly about North American middle of the road players like dde, State, and the EG players. Apparently he hasn't ever looked at the MLG open bracket before because their performances are nothing new. We know they're pretty good, they're just not on the same level as the 'top' foreigners.
The EG team house section is frankly awful. As I was reading this I was like "holy shit how is this trash on the front page of TL?". I usually have massive respect for the TL writers and I love the TL articles, but this is just awful. You focus so much on the high and mighty 'gods' like Nestea and MVP that anyone who isn't at least in the top 10 foreign players is trash to you.
Additionally, you completely forgot Demulism, who went into the team house right after recovering from his injury. His play has been amazing since then but he wasn't available to attend MLG.
You really need to rethink your perspective and consider who you are hurting with sections like that. There will always be a tier of players, and if you consider everyone outside the top 2% terrible and trashy, then you'll never be a worthy writer for anything besides GSL articles.
Yeah... the team house turned a slumping player into a monster. Isn't that result enough? This foolish writer can't possibly think that players all playing in the same location all have to start winning tournaments. Hell, teams in Korea live in a team house with 2 or 3 superstars, why doesn't TL put up articles that shit on those teams? What's up with the double standard?
Other than that good article, but that section just seemed like a publicity stunt to me.
On November 28 2011 18:16 blade55555 wrote: I also disagree with the team house statement. I bet if Idra didn't have the team house he would still be playing his 4 hours a day like he did on his own. I imagine just having people who play starcraft around you is a lot more motivating then being home by yourself (or with family).
Pretty much I disagree with your whole EG thing but whatever if that's what you think ok.
Otherwise well written article
Am I the only one who read that part as "Idra and Puma have benefited from the teamhouse. The rest of EG rooster didn't" Still I must admit that i dont agree with the part "I can't shake the feeling that they would do well regardless of where they were living" in confusecrib post. If it wasn't for the team houseplayer dorm Idra's mentality wouldn't improve. He would GG to early more frequently. But enough about Idra.
The EG team houseplayer dorm failed to increase the overall strength of EG players. Idra, Demuslim have improved (in one way or another) while the rest of the players from the house had hardly shown any improvement at all.
On November 28 2011 18:16 blade55555 wrote: I also disagree with the team house statement. I bet if Idra didn't have the team house he would still be playing his 4 hours a day like he did on his own. I imagine just having people who play starcraft around you is a lot more motivating then being home by yourself (or with family).
Pretty much I disagree with your whole EG thing but whatever if that's what you think ok.
Otherwise well written article
Am I the only one who read that part as "Idra and Puma have benefited from the teamhouse. The rest of EG rooster didn't" Still I must admit that i dont agree with the part "I can't shake the feeling that they would do well regardless of where they were living" in confusecrib post. If it wasn't for the team houseplayer dorm Idra's mentality wouldn't improve. He would GG to early more frequently. But enough about Idra.
The EG team houseplayer dorm failed to increase the overall strength of EG players. Idra, Demuslim have improved (in one way or another) while the rest of the players from the house had hardly shown any improvement at all.
Yeah i think you are the only one that reads it like that. It says that they are carried by Huk and Puma (who don't live in the team house) and Idra (who was always this good, but just in a slump for a bit).
And I disagree on this notion that the rest of the house hasn't shown improvement. StrifeCro went way further then I thought he would. Also he qualified for IEM NY, as did Axslav. Machine has been doing better as well. He and Axslav always do well in the Playhem tournaments. We need to remember where these players were before the teamhouse.
And LZgamer shouldn't be mentioned as a teamhouse guy as he doesn't live in it. Its also funny how incontrols result was "down right disturbing" because he lost to State (who finished top 32 when over 20 Koreans came and State is a pretty good player) and StrifeCro, a teammate who knows inc's play inside out. Inc gets a lot of shit but people forget that he beat Choya at the same tournament where Tyler did, who still gets praise for doing it.
calling out EG house.. ok. Well TL abandoned korea cause their results were even worse there so maybe the investment of TL / oGs was a bad idea as well? A worse idea even...
but that'd be a dumb thing to say.. especially on an official article. We have had the house for 3 months and the results have gotten a helluva lot better but you are going to say it was a waste? get real.
You need a lot more than few months for a teamhouse to pay off. Some1 smart said that a player need around a year to really benefit from playing at a teamhouse.
calling out EG house.. ok. Well TL abandoned korea cause their results were even worse there so maybe the investment of TL / oGs was a bad idea as well? A worse idea even...
but that'd be a dumb thing to say.. especially on an official article. We have had the house for 3 months and the results have gotten a helluva lot better but you are going to say it was a waste? get real.
Don't worry, man. Anyone with half a brain understands that the EG house is a great thing for everyone involved and no doubt everyone on the team has improved because of it. The writer is completely clueless.
calling out EG house.. ok. Well TL abandoned korea cause their results were even worse there so maybe the investment of TL / oGs was a bad idea as well? A worse idea even...
but that'd be a dumb thing to say.. especially on an official article. We have had the house for 3 months and the results have gotten a helluva lot better but you are going to say it was a waste? get real.
Well dude we may call out the EG house but id still rate EG as one of the nicest teams in SC2 and id still say you are one of the best personalities even with all the crap you get. Its just a case of picking up some players and trimming some other ones sadly. Like there are loads of players who would probably benefit a lot more than the current EG roster from a team house environment and become the next top player IMO. Like imagine Saladin who was doing awesome recently if he had the backing of a major organisation.
I really hope this thread doesn't devolve into an EG hate / TL vs EG flame war. I think it's a bit too early to say weather or not their team house is a "waste".
On another note, does anyone know if the author of this post is just a volunteer writer, or if he/she is a paid staff member of TL?
sweet article & pictures, I do belive that the rapid rise / fall of players are a bit concerning It might be due to sc2 still being really young, but i am more inclined to say it lacks 1 extra macro mechanic and pherhaps even an extra layer of micro, however HOTS's new unit seems to provide some aditional units that would be quite micro intensive and or require more multi tasking, So what i would like to se in sc2's future pherhaps in legacy of the void would be one more macro mechanic for each of the 3 races to just make the game these % harder overall and would really seperate the good from the great
The article makes a personal interpretation (which might be exaggerated, yes), about data that isn't false at all. Truth is EG's stars do well while the other's players results are going lower each tournament. I think the team house is way too young to be considered but that's just me, the author's opinion is different. I agree with the author though, in that Idra's, Puma's and Huk's performance would probably be the same if the team house didn't exist.
As for Demuslim, we can only know once he actually starts playing in big tournaments again, I think he's really good and all, but we have to see it.
What people need to do, is stop saying the article called the teamhouse "trash" or some other things I'm reading here, heads up: It didn't. Particularly talking about InControl... sigh... don't start the rabble dude, you're better than this...
nice article except for the random pooping on EG though, every team has lower level players who don't produce top-end results and some who are "golden boys", liquid included >_>
To be fair, do we ever talk about the Sweden house and what results that has shown? What was it, Haypro TLO Sjow and Morrow that lived there? I heard the house is disbanded now but...do you really expect every single person to make a hugely deep run upsetting top koreans just because they live in a house? How about Jinro? He didn't make any large run and he doesn't just live in a house for 4 months, he's been there for like 16 months practicing with what is the most represented Code S Korean team.
A practice house does not results make. Like others have mentioned, Idra was slumping HARD around the time of Anaheim, and it brings him back up to the status at which we expect Idra, a truly top foreign contender in every tournament.
Morrow has been non existant for months, Sjow, didn't he go two and out at MLG Providence? TLO?
I think everyone in the house and not just that but the sponsors of that house will say its a worthy investment, to suggest that its not worth its cost just purely due to one MLG tournaments results, which were where you'd expect them to be, is a pretty ludicrous claim and sure adds to the fire of the whole TL EG rivalry just due to the fact that a full time TL Staffer writes this on a post-tournament writeup that hits the front featured section.
Outside of that section, what is classified as an upset? Two players of generally regarded equal skill is an upset? If two koreans face each other specifically?
Hero 2-1 over Puzzle? Oz 2-1 Ganzi? Puma over ANYONE? Do people regard Puma as an underdog or on even ground against top Korean players, as with Hero or Oz.
Where does VileIllusion fit in all of this? A 15 year old who 2-0's Future and 2-1's Fnatic's KawaiiRice? Can that many people say they favored Illusion over Kawaiirice in Losers Round 7? And then his Championship bracket run of 2-0 over his teammate Spanishiwa who he had beaten in Open bracket round 1 two MLG's ago, followed by the streamed match that would bring him recognition where he 2-1's Sheth?
On November 28 2011 19:20 Zlasher wrote: How about Jinro? He didn't make any large run and he doesn't just live in a house for 4 months, he's been there for like 16 months practicing with what is the most represented Code S Korean team.
4th place GSL 2 times in the start dosent count? Yes he has fallen off after that but you dont need to say that he havent done anything...
I would have liked this article, but the section about EG was so bad I could not take this article seriously after that Is it really necessary to be that biased in an article for the biggest SC2 site (even though it belongs to TL)? Demuslim much, wrecking havoc? Idra, Huk, Puma, Demuslim carrying the team, sure? Most teams have their star players. I haven't seen Jinro or TLO do much lately, but I don't bash on them (love those guys), even though Jinro has great practice opportunities with the oGs guys.
Man...I first posted that picture of artosis anonymously on an...alternative starcraft community months ago, and now it's on a TL article. Super cool, and great read!
On November 28 2011 19:20 Zlasher wrote: To be fair, do we ever talk about the Sweden house and what results that has shown? What was it, Haypro TLO Sjow and Morrow that lived there? I heard the house is disbanded now but...do you really expect every single person to make a hugely deep run upsetting top koreans just because they live in a house? How about Jinro? He didn't make any large run and he doesn't just live in a house for 4 months, he's been there for like 16 months practicing with what is the most represented Code S Korean team.
A practice house does not results make. Like others have mentioned, Idra was slumping HARD around the time of Anaheim, and it brings him back up to the status at which we expect Idra, a truly top foreign contender in every tournament.
Morrow has been non existant for months, Sjow, didn't he go two and out at MLG Providence? TLO?
I think everyone in the house and not just that but the sponsors of that house will say its a worthy investment, to suggest that its not worth its cost just purely due to one MLG tournaments results, which were where you'd expect them to be, is a pretty ludicrous claim and sure adds to the fire of the whole TL EG rivalry just due to the fact that a full time TL Staffer writes this on a post-tournament writeup that hits the front featured section.
It's impossible to say how good those players would have done without the teamhouse, and the same is obv tru for EG. I would say all those players you just mentioned are better than the EG players that we're talking about (ie not huk, idra and puma) and has had more succes after living in the house.
Though, i would say there are more reasons for EG to have a teamhouse than just practice. But when it comes to raising their skill level, can you really argue that the house practice has paid off? I feel like there is always excuses for EG when they don't do well. Demuslim hasn't been winning alot? well he has been injured. But when TLO doesn't put up results, it's...
Also wtf sjow has been doing pretty good at all the MLG's unlike alot of EG players. Now he has ONE bad mlg (an he only got to play two matches) when he is not even living in the house and you compare his results with strifecro? ok...
On November 28 2011 19:20 Zlasher wrote: How about Jinro? He didn't make any large run and he doesn't just live in a house for 4 months, he's been there for like 16 months practicing with what is the most represented Code S Korean team.
4th place GSL 2 times in the start dosent count? Yes he has fallen off after that but you dont need to say that he havent done anything...
the 2 GSL RO4 were great yes but since then nothing at all. thats almost 1 year now. i love jinro but i mean gotta be fair. this write up is pretty bad i mean look at the Big upsets theres maybe 2 or 3 on that list that are big upsets.
EDIT: WTF no haypr0 matches in the big upsets umm beating nestea not an upset?
To use an analogy from, I hope, most of our childhoods. I think the OP thinks of team houses as one of those DBZ Hyperbolic Time Chambers where you go in one second and just a short time later you come out 5 times as strong. Logically this doesn't really make sense as, while the koreans are definitely better as a whole, if team houses were that effective there would be no foreigner who could match any of their skills.
On November 28 2011 19:20 Zlasher wrote: How about Jinro? He didn't make any large run and he doesn't just live in a house for 4 months, he's been there for like 16 months practicing with what is the most represented Code S Korean team.
4th place GSL 2 times in the start dosent count? Yes he has fallen off after that but you dont need to say that he havent done anything...
I didn't say he hasn't done anything, but since then have his results been expected out of practicing with oGs for so long? Asking "Should Team Evil Geniuses Have Established a North American Team House?" is the same as asking if Jinro deserves to be practicing there, its absolutely ludicrous. Jinro 100% deserves to be practicing with oGs and is a top foreign contender. Just like there is absolutely no doubt that EG should have formed the house, why NOT form the house.
Theres only so many people in top 16 at a tournament. How good does this guy think EG should be? they cant take every single spot thats just unrealistic. The hate for EG in this article is totally ridicules.
A team house without a set practise routine and rules are just a house. If it's simply about living together the players could just as well play from their seperate homes. This is the biggest difference between foreigners team houses and the better Korean ones.
On November 28 2011 19:20 Zlasher wrote: How about Jinro? He didn't make any large run and he doesn't just live in a house for 4 months, he's been there for like 16 months practicing with what is the most represented Code S Korean team.
4th place GSL 2 times in the start dosent count? Yes he has fallen off after that but you dont need to say that he havent done anything...
I didn't say he hasn't done anything, but since then have his results been expected out of practicing with oGs for so long? Asking "Should Team Evil Geniuses Have Established a North American Team House?" is the same as asking if Jinro deserves to be practicing there, its absolutely ludicrous. Jinro 100% deserves to be practicing with oGs and is a top foreign contender. Just like there is absolutely no doubt that EG should have formed the house, why NOT form the house.
Yes I agree with what you said, it was only the "He didnt make any large run" part I didnt like since it did pay off for him in the start. Ofc teams should makes houses and EG house have been good for them but it can also be better if they train better (This is the reason the swedish house died is becuse they didnt really train hard they just played and nothing more)
"Should Team Evil Geniuses Have Established a North American Team House?
I'll be honest guys, I'm really afraid of getting flamed for this, but it's something that's concerned me for long enough that I'm just going to say it. EG did badly, and I can't help but feel that the team house is not paying for itself. Of course when you go to EG's coverage of the event, they point to having "solid results overall," but in reality, it's only ever their golden three that do well. Thanks to Idra, Huk, and Puma, EG always manages good PR, but the results of their other players are starting to get down right disturbing: iNcontroL lost to State and Strifecro, StrifeCro lost to syckness and RuFF13, Lzgamer lost to Catz and exMaSter. Only Machine and Axslav's results are remotely explainable, with losses to Nestea, dde, Gatored, and Violet. Even with those two players though, losses to Gatored and dde when you live in a team house are hard to justify.
To be honest, if they want to justify having a team house, they need to work out a better system. While Puma and Idra seem to be practicing correctly, I can't shake the feeling that they would do well regardless of where they were living. EG needs to figure out what those two are doing right, and have everyone try to emulate it to avoid poor results. Having a team house in North America established a wonderful precedent, now they just need the results to match."
You sir not only deserve to get flamed.. but you deserve to have a bucket of gasoline thrown on your head and lit on fire.
Pantera said it best.. "Respect! One step from lashing out at you! Be yourself by yourself stay away from me! a lesson learned in life known from the dawn of time RE! SPECT! Run your mouth when Im not around! Can you hear those violins playing your song?"
On November 28 2011 19:20 Zlasher wrote: How about Jinro? He didn't make any large run and he doesn't just live in a house for 4 months, he's been there for like 16 months practicing with what is the most represented Code S Korean team.
4th place GSL 2 times in the start dosent count? Yes he has fallen off after that but you dont need to say that he havent done anything...
No it doesn't count. Him winning using an abusing TvZ style and a mech style that nobody adapted against in the other match up's didn't make him the better player for playing in a team house it made him a player who was winning from abuse and lack of smart opponents. When he did wind up facing the decent Code S players he got stomped. It has been said by many that there are plenty of people in Code S who shouldn't be there. It was true back then and it will probably still be true next season even with this format change.
Meanwhile their article really isn't saying the team house wasn't a good idea, but pointing out that the house existing isn't enough. It seems like these players are getting worse at match ups despite not only playing in a house together, but after the team has recruited two very good players (huk and puma). EG is still my favorite team, but I would really like a couple more players (machine, inc, demus) to make runs deeper in these tournaments tired of having to watch Puma barely get beat, idra lose series to the accidental gg slip, and Huk continue to Boss it out, but tunnel vision his way out of an advantage.
Not only was the part about EG completely irrelevant to the article but it was incredibly biased and ignorant. Writers for a big community site should at least stay on topic and try to be a little unbiased.. (or so I would think) Get their shit together? Out of line and just ridiculous.
Also, if you completely disregard the top 3 performers on each team, which is what you do with EG. I think you'd find that no team is doing well.
On November 28 2011 19:20 Zlasher wrote: How about Jinro? He didn't make any large run and he doesn't just live in a house for 4 months, he's been there for like 16 months practicing with what is the most represented Code S Korean team.
4th place GSL 2 times in the start dosent count? Yes he has fallen off after that but you dont need to say that he havent done anything...
No it doesn't count. Him winning using an abusing TvZ style and a mech style that nobody adapted against in the other match up's didn't make him the better player for playing in a team house it made him a player who was winning from abuse and lack of smart opponents. When he did wind up facing the decent Code S players he got stomped. It has been said by many that there are plenty of people in Code S who shouldn't be there. It was true back then and it will probably still be true next season even with this format change.
Meanwhile their article really isn't saying the team house wasn't a good idea, but pointing out that the house existing isn't enough. It seems like these players are getting worse at match ups despite not only playing in a house together, but after the team has recruited two very good players (huk and puma). EG is still my favorite team, but I would really like a couple more players (machine, inc, demus) to make runs deeper in these tournaments tired of having to watch Puma barely get beat, idra lose series to the accidental gg slip, and Huk continue to Boss it out, but tunnel vision his way out of an advantage.
i dont think he was abusing anytihng he was just one of the first players to play a macro style tarren.
calling out EG house.. ok. Well TL abandoned korea cause their results were even worse there so maybe the investment of TL / oGs was a bad idea as well? A worse idea even...
but that'd be a dumb thing to say.. especially on an official article. We have had the house for 3 months and the results have gotten a helluva lot better but you are going to say it was a waste? get real.
the TL house produced EG's best preforming player and your saying they are doing bad? Jinro 2 times 4th place @ GSL. And bashing TL's team because someone is stateing the obvious, this comming from a offical EG member and not a Random News writer on a community site. pretty low if you ask me!..
People should be rooting for EG house regardless if you like EG or not.
If one of the richest teams cannot make a functioning team house in the homeland, then western SC2 scene is going to struggle very much.
Every team house will eventually have to be in Korea or a partnership program, teams will only be able to send their best players overseas. B-teams will die in foreigner teams, lots of players will be fired unless they have what it takes to reach a level where they can compete in Korea.
pretty stupid of TL to post an article where they literally call into question making a team house.. what the fuck?
I want a vile, vVv, coL (america), Mouz, Empire etc etc etc.. house.. I want as many teams as possible taking this shit serious. Where the FUCK does TL get off calling out someone else for making a team house for themselves? A waste? It can NEVER be a waste. Even if Machine, myself, Axslav or Strife NEVER win a MLG the house is NOT a waste. It is where serious players get more serious and do the best they can to train and get better. It is where legitimate media is produced, serious practice is had and better results are posted..
I expect WAY more from TL than this shit. Everyone and their mother could call out TL for their results and their partnership/house with oGs but they don't because that would be a dumb thing to do in this community.. and yet the #1 community website goes out and calls out their rival while turning the blinders to their own crowd of players who are "carried" by players who churn out less results than the ones who carry EG... wtf.
calling out EG house.. ok. Well TL abandoned korea cause their results were even worse there so maybe the investment of TL / oGs was a bad idea as well? A worse idea even...
but that'd be a dumb thing to say.. especially on an official article. We have had the house for 3 months and the results have gotten a helluva lot better but you are going to say it was a waste? get real.
the TL house produced EG's best preforming player and your saying they are doing bad? Jinro 2 times 4th place @ GSL. And bashing TL's team because someone is stateing the obvious, this comming from a offical EG member and not a Random News writer on a community site. pretty low if you ask me!..
On November 28 2011 19:20 Zlasher wrote: How about Jinro? He didn't make any large run and he doesn't just live in a house for 4 months, he's been there for like 16 months practicing with what is the most represented Code S Korean team.
4th place GSL 2 times in the start dosent count? Yes he has fallen off after that but you dont need to say that he havent done anything...
I didn't say he hasn't done anything, but since then have his results been expected out of practicing with oGs for so long? Asking "Should Team Evil Geniuses Have Established a North American Team House?" is the same as asking if Jinro deserves to be practicing there, its absolutely ludicrous. Jinro 100% deserves to be practicing with oGs and is a top foreign contender. Just like there is absolutely no doubt that EG should have formed the house, why NOT form the house.
Yes I agree with what you said, it was only the "He didnt make any large run" part I didnt like since it did pay off for him in the start. Ofc teams should makes houses and EG house have been good for them but it can also be better if they train better (This is the reason the swedish house died is becuse they didnt really train hard they just played and nothing more)
But yes I agree with what you say
the "He didnt make any large run" is in reference to this MLG, but there are plenty of top players that didn't make a run like that. Sjow was the highest placing foreigner was it two MLG's ago at Raleigh, and he went a fast two and out, as did Kiwikaki, Select, Boxer, Slush, Ret, Rain, and Bomber.
calling out EG house.. ok. Well TL abandoned korea cause their results were even worse there so maybe the investment of TL / oGs was a bad idea as well? A worse idea even...
but that'd be a dumb thing to say.. especially on an official article. We have had the house for 3 months and the results have gotten a helluva lot better but you are going to say it was a waste? get real.
the TL house produced EG's best preforming player and your saying they are doing bad? Jinro 2 times 4th place @ GSL. And bashing TL's team because someone is stateing the obvious, this comming from a offical EG member and not a Random News writer on a community site. pretty low if you ask me!..
Ok forget incontrols comments, read every other post in this thread, jinros wins were long ago, obviously out of the scope of this article if he thinks EG isn't doint well.
Is there a good reason to spoil a featured article with a paragraph that is nothing but a flamebait? Not only do you randomly hit on EG without a good reason, you also devalue the rest of the article with it. I can't see a justification for either of the two.
On November 28 2011 19:20 Zlasher wrote: How about Jinro? He didn't make any large run and he doesn't just live in a house for 4 months, he's been there for like 16 months practicing with what is the most represented Code S Korean team.
4th place GSL 2 times in the start dosent count? Yes he has fallen off after that but you dont need to say that he havent done anything...
I didn't say he hasn't done anything, but since then have his results been expected out of practicing with oGs for so long? Asking "Should Team Evil Geniuses Have Established a North American Team House?" is the same as asking if Jinro deserves to be practicing there, its absolutely ludicrous. Jinro 100% deserves to be practicing with oGs and is a top foreign contender. Just like there is absolutely no doubt that EG should have formed the house, why NOT form the house.
I was on incontrols stream when he got mad about this. All you do is bring up his arguments. There is no doubt that Jinro's succes in gsl can be attributed to his practice in the ogs house. Has nothing to do with deserving it.
Jinro is not a good example. Neither is TLO's house in sweden. That wasn't a even a teamhouse, it was just a bunch if friends living and practicing together, completely different from the EG house wich formed for the reason of making the eg members better. And after that you really have no more arguments.
I actually remember incontrol himself being critical on sotg towards some ppl that formed teamhouses. "You're not just gonna get good because you live in the same house" etc. Why to not invest in the teamhouse? Well im sure it costs money and might not give them much return. Now im sure that the EG teamhouse was a good idea for many reasons, but you can't get all mad when ppl claim that it hasn't done much as far as actually getting the players better.
On November 28 2011 19:20 Zlasher wrote: How about Jinro? He didn't make any large run and he doesn't just live in a house for 4 months, he's been there for like 16 months practicing with what is the most represented Code S Korean team.
4th place GSL 2 times in the start dosent count? Yes he has fallen off after that but you dont need to say that he havent done anything...
No it doesn't count. Him winning using an abusing TvZ style and a mech style that nobody adapted against in the other match up's didn't make him the better player for playing in a team house it made him a player who was winning from abuse and lack of smart opponents. When he did wind up facing the decent Code S players he got stomped. It has been said by many that there are plenty of people in Code S who shouldn't be there. It was true back then and it will probably still be true next season even with this format change.
Meanwhile their article really isn't saying the team house wasn't a good idea, but pointing out that the house existing isn't enough. It seems like these players are getting worse at match ups despite not only playing in a house together, but after the team has recruited two very good players (huk and puma). EG is still my favorite team, but I would really like a couple more players (machine, inc, demus) to make runs deeper in these tournaments tired of having to watch Puma barely get beat, idra lose series to the accidental gg slip, and Huk continue to Boss it out, but tunnel vision his way out of an advantage.
i dont think he was abusing anytihng he was just one of the first players to play a macro style tarren.
Let me rewrite it. TvZ - abusive (now nerfed) bunker rushes. TvT and TvP - mech style that enemies LET run them over. When someone thought "hey my normal strategy won't work because he isn't using a normal strategy let me do something else" it was over and both times he was stopped and hard.
So, he made it to two Ro4's because Blizzard made T OP and some people in Code S have no brains. Exaggerated, but true.
Dude this is not the school paper news, they shouldn't let you write, that part about EG is just dumb. Got nothin to do with news, it's just flaming and it's not good for anyone. Stop upseting esports
Yikes. I don't know about anyone else but I get a little frazzled whenever someone talks about how some team (like EG) needs to cut a player because they are not posting results and pick up other players with the money. Or even just the cutting part. I have faith in the teams managers decision as to why they have the players that they do and I trust that they have more information on the subject than I do. So saying that someone needs to get cut off from a team and given the boot because they aren't doing so well.... I mean. Why? Why does it matter to you what players the team fields? Do you even consider what that person might feel if they read your comment? Why not just support the player because he is trying to make a professional career out of the game we all love? Instead of hating on him and saying that he pretty much needs to get kicked out of the scene. I do not understand it. Please enlighten me.
On the EG house: - Demuslim has probably been the biggest benefactor of the team house as his play really skyrocketed during his stay. I believe he's had some visa problems recently, so he hasn't been able to prove it, but Incontrol stated not too long ago that Demuslim was probably the team ace at this point (he may have been excluding Huk and/or Puma)... then Idra went to China and owned some face. Demuslim was a decent player before EG, but if he's the beast that some say he is now, he's got to be considered a homegrown EG talent. - Idra went on a big slump after leaving Korea, but in the EG team house he's managed to break out of that slump and should be considered a top 5 foreigner. Would he have done the same outside the EG team house? Maybe. - Huk, often considered the best of all the foreigners, doesn't normally stay at the team house. However, when he plays in NA tournaments, he can be found at the EG team house getting practice and getting used to the time-zone shift. You shouldn't underestimate the effect the team house may have had on Huk before he won in Orlando. - Puma, ditto for any NA tournament. Practice in a hotel on a laptop(?) and questionable internet connection or practice in a team house for the days leading up to a tournament? You decide.
The team house has had a different effect on everybody involved. Sure, it's true that the training regime used at the EG house has benefitted some like Demuslim a lot more than it has benefitted others. And maybe doing something like bringing in a full-time coach would help some of the guys, but I think it would also majorly turn off Idra and possibly a few others. However, essentially calling people scrubs for losing to players that don't live in team houses is just plain stupid. Gatored beat a number of quality Koreans (you note them yourself!) and he's not in a team house. Time to cut DRG, Ganzi, and TOP, right?
Let's face it, in SC2, the mechanical skill cap is lower than BW. Luckily, that leaves a lot more room for wins based on strategy. However, strategy is a lot more volatile than mechanics. So SC2's pro-scene will probably always be more volatile than BW's (and even the vast majority of the top BW pros didn't get above 60% win rates). There is only one team house in the world that's producing amazing individual results and that's IM. But even they are reliant on two people (MVP, Nestea) for those results with LosirA and Happy being a bit behind. Everyone else on IM (8-13 other people according to Liquipedia) is code A or lower. Should we judge IM by YongHwa, Seed, and Sopia's results and ask them why they bother having a team house? Slayers gobbles up a ton of talent and has a lot of code S players, but still only has 1 GSL code S win and a lot of people on the outside looking in. Should they break up the team house too?
Do you now realize how stupid the initial argument was?
To be fair, I may agree that things could be done differently at the EG house to improve overall results. However, that wasn't the argument that was made. No matter what they do, EG is still going to have a pretty wide range of results, just like every other team out there.
On November 28 2011 19:20 Zlasher wrote: How about Jinro? He didn't make any large run and he doesn't just live in a house for 4 months, he's been there for like 16 months practicing with what is the most represented Code S Korean team.
4th place GSL 2 times in the start dosent count? Yes he has fallen off after that but you dont need to say that he havent done anything...
No it doesn't count. Him winning using an abusing TvZ style and a mech style that nobody adapted against in the other match up's didn't make him the better player for playing in a team house it made him a player who was winning from abuse and lack of smart opponents. When he did wind up facing the decent Code S players he got stomped. It has been said by many that there are plenty of people in Code S who shouldn't be there. It was true back then and it will probably still be true next season even with this format change.
Meanwhile their article really isn't saying the team house wasn't a good idea, but pointing out that the house existing isn't enough. It seems like these players are getting worse at match ups despite not only playing in a house together, but after the team has recruited two very good players (huk and puma). EG is still my favorite team, but I would really like a couple more players (machine, inc, demus) to make runs deeper in these tournaments tired of having to watch Puma barely get beat, idra lose series to the accidental gg slip, and Huk continue to Boss it out, but tunnel vision his way out of an advantage.
i dont think he was abusing anytihng he was just one of the first players to play a macro style tarren.
Let me rewrite it. TvZ - abusive (now nerfed) bunker rushes. TvT and TvP - mech style that enemies LET run them over. When someone thought "hey my normal strategy won't work because he isn't using a normal strategy let me do something else" it was over and both times he was stopped and hard.
You play to win if youre not then youre dumb, he was still playing good and youre stupid if you think different.. he did not do this 100% of the games during his 2 runs
calling out EG house.. ok. Well TL abandoned korea cause their results were even worse there so maybe the investment of TL / oGs was a bad idea as well? A worse idea even...
but that'd be a dumb thing to say.. especially on an official article. We have had the house for 3 months and the results have gotten a helluva lot better but you are going to say it was a waste? get real.
the TL house produced EG's best preforming player and your saying they are doing bad? Jinro 2 times 4th place @ GSL. And bashing TL's team because someone is stateing the obvious, this comming from a offical EG member and not a Random News writer on a community site. pretty low if you ask me!..
Can you really say Huk is EG's best performing player? Idra took down IEM and Asus, Huk won MLG, Puma won IEM and just got 2nd at DH (where he took out Idra and Huk). They are all right up there. Also Idra and Puma were much more involved in their team leagues which they did well in.
To be fair, do we ever talk about the Sweden house and what results that has shown? What was it, Haypro TLO Sjow and Morrow that lived there? I heard the house is disbanded now but...do you really expect every single person to make a hugely deep run upsetting top koreans just because they live in a house? How about Jinro? He didn't make any large run and he doesn't just live in a house for 4 months, he's been there for like 16 months practicing with what is the most represented Code S Korean team.
A practice house does not results make. Like others have mentioned, Idra was slumping HARD around the time of Anaheim, and it brings him back up to the status at which we expect Idra, a truly top foreign contender in every tournament.
Morrow has been non existant for months, Sjow, didn't he go two and out at MLG Providence? TLO?
I think everyone in the house and not just that but the sponsors of that house will say its a worthy investment, to suggest that its not worth its cost just purely due to one MLG tournaments results, which were where you'd expect them to be, is a pretty ludicrous claim and sure adds to the fire of the whole TL EG rivalry just due to the fact that a full time TL Staffer writes this on a post-tournament writeup that hits the front featured section.
I think both team houses (EG and the Swedish one) have similar problem - as far as i know they dont/ didnt have a coach that would regulate the training. Correct me if im wrong about that part Zlasher. oGs-TL house did provide some interesting results - it made HuK into a star and also shown us that not every western pro could manage the korean house training regiment. Lots of liquid guys pulling out of korea - Haypro, Ret, TLO, Sheth (well he was part of FXO at that time. But he clearly stated that living in korean type team house wasn't for him). Ps you forgot to mention the ex root team house - Catz, Drewbie and some other guys i don't remember now and FXO Malaysian/ Singaporean ? team house. Most of those haven't produce good results (not sure about that FXO house). The root house ceased to exist but it created one of the strongest NA 2v2 teams (Catz and Drewbie). TL house... Well it created the new EG star and also allowed TL to pick up koreans for the team.
To be honest we would need some complete unbiased article about the effect of western team-houses.
Wasn't there a Redbull LAN not long ago that promoted training, which also included some liquid players? I'm pretty sure everyone that attended agreed that the event was a success to some degree. However White-ra said the event was too short and that people were only getting the benefits of working and training together towards the end. Imagine that as a team training house? hmm....
If you're arguing whether training online can produce that same results anyway? I am sure if you asked all the players that attended the Redbull event, all the players would favour a training house. It's the camaraderie. The basic human element of face to face contact, which can go a long way.
I don't know the exact practice regime of EG. However, when have all the EG players been in the house at the exact same time anyway? The house seems to be more there for convenience and accessability considering how much some of their players travel.
I still reckon the EG players have benefited greatly from this setup, regardless of the calibre of player, because in any team you're going to have your star players. I definitely can tell Demuslim has improved from this. Regardless what it comes down to is the players mental state/strength/drive/ability, which a training house can only help so much.
On November 28 2011 19:20 Zlasher wrote: How about Jinro? He didn't make any large run and he doesn't just live in a house for 4 months, he's been there for like 16 months practicing with what is the most represented Code S Korean team.
4th place GSL 2 times in the start dosent count? Yes he has fallen off after that but you dont need to say that he havent done anything...
I didn't say he hasn't done anything, but since then have his results been expected out of practicing with oGs for so long? Asking "Should Team Evil Geniuses Have Established a North American Team House?" is the same as asking if Jinro deserves to be practicing there, its absolutely ludicrous. Jinro 100% deserves to be practicing with oGs and is a top foreign contender. Just like there is absolutely no doubt that EG should have formed the house, why NOT form the house.
I was on incontrols stream when he got mad about this. All you do is bring up his arguments. There is no doubt that Jinro's succes in gsl can be attributed to his practice in the ogs house. Has nothing to do with deserving it.
Jinro is not a good example. Neither is TLO's house in sweden. That wasn't a even a teamhouse, it was just a bunch if friends living and practicing together, completely different from the EG house wich formed for the reason of making the eg members better. And after that you really have no more arguments.
I actually remember incontrol himself being critical on sotg towards some ppl that formed teamhouses. "You're not just gonna get good because you live in the same house" etc. Why to not invest in the teamhouse? Well im sure it costs money and might not give them much return. Now im sure that the EG teamhouse was a good idea for many reasons, but you can't get all mad when ppl claim that it hasn't done much as far as actually getting the players better.
Yes you can because the players have gotten better. No it hasn't turned Axslav and StrifeCro into champions, but the estro house didn't turn Idra into a BW great in Korea either. But both houses made those players better.
On November 28 2011 19:41 iNcontroL wrote: [...] It is where serious players get more serious and do the best they can to train and get better. It is where legitimate media is produced, serious practice is had and better results are posted.. [...]
But that's exactly what the article is questioning - maybe I misunderstood your point, but are you saying that even if people don't produce better results, they still get practice and better results?
Don't get me wrong, I'm all for the EG house and other houses and I do think it was wrong to call out EG in particular. But the question remains: Are team houses actually better practice environments? Because EG has set a precedent with a North American house (of these proportions), it is very important to closely look at the results and see if it pays off. Not just for EG but for the whole ESPORTS community. We need to know if such a model is viable and efficient. Just the players saying they feel like they get better practice is not enough. Though 3 months is too short a time to judge, I feel.
EDIT: Also, I don't think the right response is "Well, maybe we aren't doing so great, but look at THIS team". That just doesn't help anybody.
calling out EG house.. ok. Well TL abandoned korea cause their results were even worse there so maybe the investment of TL / oGs was a bad idea as well? A worse idea even...
but that'd be a dumb thing to say.. especially on an official article. We have had the house for 3 months and the results have gotten a helluva lot better but you are going to say it was a waste? get real.
the TL house produced EG's best preforming player and your saying they are doing bad? Jinro 2 times 4th place @ GSL. And bashing TL's team because someone is stateing the obvious, this comming from a offical EG member and not a Random News writer on a community site. pretty low if you ask me!..
Ok forget incontrols comments, read every other post in this thread, jinros wins were long ago, obviously out of the scope of this article if he thinks EG isn't doint well.
I think its redicilous how a Offical EG member can't handle alittle news post without ripping on other teams, its a NEWS site, with articles and stuff. if TMZ post something about Lady gaga, do you really think she would go berzerk and call out other singers? i don't agree with the full post about the EG members, but not a single person can deny that some of the players haven't preformed aswell as expected, some have and thats good. but Incontrol Throwing rocks at other people because the house is being questioned is stupid and unprofessional as hell.
On November 28 2011 19:20 Zlasher wrote: How about Jinro? He didn't make any large run and he doesn't just live in a house for 4 months, he's been there for like 16 months practicing with what is the most represented Code S Korean team.
4th place GSL 2 times in the start dosent count? Yes he has fallen off after that but you dont need to say that he havent done anything...
I didn't say he hasn't done anything, but since then have his results been expected out of practicing with oGs for so long? Asking "Should Team Evil Geniuses Have Established a North American Team House?" is the same as asking if Jinro deserves to be practicing there, its absolutely ludicrous. Jinro 100% deserves to be practicing with oGs and is a top foreign contender. Just like there is absolutely no doubt that EG should have formed the house, why NOT form the house.
Jinro is not a good example. Neither is TLO's house in sweden. That wasn't a even a teamhouse, it was just a bunch if friends living and practicing together, completely different from the EG house wich formed for the reason of making the eg members better.
I can't speak for EG but I'm pretty sure the Team House was formed in order to give their players an opportunity to truly become full time players and not live in the esports model of pre 2010. It also creates a central hub for their business as well as media production to occur, along with that, the reason is to give the players the practice environment of a Korean pro-house while still being in the West, where esports has had the explosion, not in Korea. The goal is not to here and now outright make players better, a few walls and a roof can't do that, but it can provide the scenario to get better. After 3-4 months of being in the house can we really say any of those players have gotten worse? Not only are they all streaming now but we, once again, have seen Idra break out of a slump, something a team house hasn't done for other players on other teams with the opportunity to be in a team house. That's just the most obvious example of someone who's gotten better as a result.
Not to mention how can we possibly be judging ALL of these houses based on one event? When you look at a list of the players who went two and out.
On November 28 2011 19:20 Zlasher wrote: How about Jinro? He didn't make any large run and he doesn't just live in a house for 4 months, he's been there for like 16 months practicing with what is the most represented Code S Korean team.
4th place GSL 2 times in the start dosent count? Yes he has fallen off after that but you dont need to say that he havent done anything...
No it doesn't count. Him winning using an abusing TvZ style and a mech style that nobody adapted against in the other match up's didn't make him the better player for playing in a team house it made him a player who was winning from abuse and lack of smart opponents. When he did wind up facing the decent Code S players he got stomped. It has been said by many that there are plenty of people in Code S who shouldn't be there. It was true back then and it will probably still be true next season even with this format change.
Meanwhile their article really isn't saying the team house wasn't a good idea, but pointing out that the house existing isn't enough. It seems like these players are getting worse at match ups despite not only playing in a house together, but after the team has recruited two very good players (huk and puma). EG is still my favorite team, but I would really like a couple more players (machine, inc, demus) to make runs deeper in these tournaments tired of having to watch Puma barely get beat, idra lose series to the accidental gg slip, and Huk continue to Boss it out, but tunnel vision his way out of an advantage.
i dont think he was abusing anytihng he was just one of the first players to play a macro style tarren.
Let me rewrite it. TvZ - abusive (now nerfed) bunker rushes. TvT and TvP - mech style that enemies LET run them over. When someone thought "hey my normal strategy won't work because he isn't using a normal strategy let me do something else" it was over and both times he was stopped and hard.
You play to win if youre not then youre dumb, he was still playing good and youre stupid if you think different.. he did not do this 100% of the games during his 2 runs
so please get out
I'm not saying he is a bad person for playing to win. You mistake my post if you think that is what I'm saying. Shit if I knew about 4 gate early and I could pick up the first 3 GSL victories I would have done it. My point is very simple perhaps not simple enough for you. His TvZ 2 rax build was nerfed because it was OP simple as that just because you can abuse something does not make you the better player. His TvT and TvP builds were new and his opponents did not want to react to them, so they lost. Again he wasn't faster, he didn't micro better, because the first time in each tournament someone came back at him with an improved build he got stomped into the ground and hard. That is why he isn't doing well now, that is why he isn't consistent. He cannot keep up and even though I rooted for him every GSL he wasn't the best player and you're stupid if you think different. See, I can argue like a 5 year old as well.
On November 28 2011 19:20 Zlasher wrote: How about Jinro? He didn't make any large run and he doesn't just live in a house for 4 months, he's been there for like 16 months practicing with what is the most represented Code S Korean team.
4th place GSL 2 times in the start dosent count? Yes he has fallen off after that but you dont need to say that he havent done anything...
I didn't say he hasn't done anything, but since then have his results been expected out of practicing with oGs for so long? Asking "Should Team Evil Geniuses Have Established a North American Team House?" is the same as asking if Jinro deserves to be practicing there, its absolutely ludicrous. Jinro 100% deserves to be practicing with oGs and is a top foreign contender. Just like there is absolutely no doubt that EG should have formed the house, why NOT form the house.
I was on incontrols stream when he got mad about this. All you do is bring up his arguments. There is no doubt that Jinro's succes in gsl can be attributed to his practice in the ogs house. Has nothing to do with deserving it.
Jinro is not a good example. Neither is TLO's house in sweden. That wasn't a even a teamhouse, it was just a bunch if friends living and practicing together, completely different from the EG house wich formed for the reason of making the eg members better. And after that you really have no more arguments.
I actually remember incontrol himself being critical on sotg towards some ppl that formed teamhouses. "You're not just gonna get good because you live in the same house" etc. Why to not invest in the teamhouse? Well im sure it costs money and might not give them much return. Now im sure that the EG teamhouse was a good idea for many reasons, but you can't get all mad when ppl claim that it hasn't done much as far as actually getting the players better.
Yes you can because the players have gotten better. No it hasn't turned Axslav and StrifeCro into champions, but the estro house didn't turn Idra into a BW great in Korea either. But both houses made those players better.
No you can't because you don't know how they would have fared just playing ladder from home.
Btw the because of the Estro/CJ training for idra he did get noticably better with better results and it did make him into a champion.
What im saying is that ofcourse people can look at their teamhouse that was specifically there to make the players better. Only EG themselves will know wether or not it has. But as an outsider you can def question the move, as far as making the players better. Just as incontrol did with the root house (or w/e house it was).
As i said there might be other reasons to make a teamhouse, but was it really worth from a performace point of view? who knows...
On November 28 2011 19:20 Zlasher wrote: How about Jinro? He didn't make any large run and he doesn't just live in a house for 4 months, he's been there for like 16 months practicing with what is the most represented Code S Korean team.
4th place GSL 2 times in the start dosent count? Yes he has fallen off after that but you dont need to say that he havent done anything...
No it doesn't count. Him winning using an abusing TvZ style and a mech style that nobody adapted against in the other match up's didn't make him the better player for playing in a team house it made him a player who was winning from abuse and lack of smart opponents. When he did wind up facing the decent Code S players he got stomped. It has been said by many that there are plenty of people in Code S who shouldn't be there. It was true back then and it will probably still be true next season even with this format change.
Meanwhile their article really isn't saying the team house wasn't a good idea, but pointing out that the house existing isn't enough. It seems like these players are getting worse at match ups despite not only playing in a house together, but after the team has recruited two very good players (huk and puma). EG is still my favorite team, but I would really like a couple more players (machine, inc, demus) to make runs deeper in these tournaments tired of having to watch Puma barely get beat, idra lose series to the accidental gg slip, and Huk continue to Boss it out, but tunnel vision his way out of an advantage.
i dont think he was abusing anytihng he was just one of the first players to play a macro style tarren.
Let me rewrite it. TvZ - abusive (now nerfed) bunker rushes. TvT and TvP - mech style that enemies LET run them over. When someone thought "hey my normal strategy won't work because he isn't using a normal strategy let me do something else" it was over and both times he was stopped and hard.
You play to win if youre not then youre dumb, he was still playing good and youre stupid if you think different.. he did not do this 100% of the games during his 2 runs
so please get out
I'm not saying he is a bad person for playing to win. You mistake my post if you think that is what I'm saying. Shit if I knew about 4 gate early and I could pick up the first 3 GSL victories I would have done it. My point is very simple perhaps not simple enough for you. His TvZ 2 rax build was nerfed because it was OP simple as that just because you can abuse something does not make you the better player. His TvT and TvP builds were new and his opponents did not want to react to them, so they lost. Again he wasn't faster, he didn't micro better, because the first time in each tournament someone came back at him with an improved build he got stomped into the ground and hard. That is why he isn't doing well now, that is why he isn't consistent. He cannot keep up and even though I rooted for him every GSL he wasn't the best player and you're stupid if you think different. See, I can argue like a 5 year old as well.
On November 28 2011 19:20 Zlasher wrote: How about Jinro? He didn't make any large run and he doesn't just live in a house for 4 months, he's been there for like 16 months practicing with what is the most represented Code S Korean team.
4th place GSL 2 times in the start dosent count? Yes he has fallen off after that but you dont need to say that he havent done anything...
I didn't say he hasn't done anything, but since then have his results been expected out of practicing with oGs for so long? Asking "Should Team Evil Geniuses Have Established a North American Team House?" is the same as asking if Jinro deserves to be practicing there, its absolutely ludicrous. Jinro 100% deserves to be practicing with oGs and is a top foreign contender. Just like there is absolutely no doubt that EG should have formed the house, why NOT form the house.
Jinro is not a good example. Neither is TLO's house in sweden. That wasn't a even a teamhouse, it was just a bunch if friends living and practicing together, completely different from the EG house wich formed for the reason of making the eg members better.
I can't speak for EG but I'm pretty sure the Team House was formed in order to give their players an opportunity to truly become full time players and not live in the esports model of pre 2010. It also creates a central hub for their business as well as media production to occur, along with that, the reason is to give the players the practice environment of a Korean pro-house while still being in the West, where esports has had the explosion, not in Korea. The goal is not to here and now outright make players better, a few walls and a roof can't do that, but it can provide the scenario to get better. After 3-4 months of being in the house can we really say any of those players have gotten worse? Not only are they all streaming now but we, once again, have seen Idra break out of a slump, something a team house hasn't done for other players on other teams with the opportunity to be in a team house. That's just the most obvious example of someone who's gotten better as a result.
Not to mention how can we possibly be judging ALL of these houses based on one event? When you look at a list of the players who went two and out.
Actually im pretty sure it was specifically stated at the time the teamhouse was formed, that it was to make the players better by practicing in a house together. That's also what you were (and is still is) arguing for. I have said all along that it might be other reasons to have a team house, so it's kinda funny you're telling me that.
There just is nothing that indicates that most of the eg players have benefited from the house, and you can't compare it to any other house saying "well look at those guys they haven't benefited from their house either" - because their just isn't any similar house to the EG house. The fact that idra was even in a slump tells us that he was a good player already. Did he break out of the slump because of the EG house? maybe, maybe not. Does ONE PLAYER breaking out of a slump justify having a teamhouse? If you only have it to get more results and no one else is, then i would say "No".
On November 28 2011 19:20 Zlasher wrote: How about Jinro? He didn't make any large run and he doesn't just live in a house for 4 months, he's been there for like 16 months practicing with what is the most represented Code S Korean team.
4th place GSL 2 times in the start dosent count? Yes he has fallen off after that but you dont need to say that he havent done anything...
No it doesn't count. Him winning using an abusing TvZ style and a mech style that nobody adapted against in the other match up's didn't make him the better player for playing in a team house it made him a player who was winning from abuse and lack of smart opponents. When he did wind up facing the decent Code S players he got stomped. It has been said by many that there are plenty of people in Code S who shouldn't be there. It was true back then and it will probably still be true next season even with this format change.
Meanwhile their article really isn't saying the team house wasn't a good idea, but pointing out that the house existing isn't enough. It seems like these players are getting worse at match ups despite not only playing in a house together, but after the team has recruited two very good players (huk and puma). EG is still my favorite team, but I would really like a couple more players (machine, inc, demus) to make runs deeper in these tournaments tired of having to watch Puma barely get beat, idra lose series to the accidental gg slip, and Huk continue to Boss it out, but tunnel vision his way out of an advantage.
i dont think he was abusing anytihng he was just one of the first players to play a macro style tarren.
Let me rewrite it. TvZ - abusive (now nerfed) bunker rushes. TvT and TvP - mech style that enemies LET run them over. When someone thought "hey my normal strategy won't work because he isn't using a normal strategy let me do something else" it was over and both times he was stopped and hard.
You play to win if youre not then youre dumb, he was still playing good and youre stupid if you think different.. he did not do this 100% of the games during his 2 runs
so please get out
I'm not saying he is a bad person for playing to win. You mistake my post if you think that is what I'm saying. Shit if I knew about 4 gate early and I could pick up the first 3 GSL victories I would have done it. My point is very simple perhaps not simple enough for you. His TvZ 2 rax build was nerfed because it was OP simple as that just because you can abuse something does not make you the better player. His TvT and TvP builds were new and his opponents did not want to react to them, so they lost. Again he wasn't faster, he didn't micro better, because the first time in each tournament someone came back at him with an improved build he got stomped into the ground and hard. That is why he isn't doing well now, that is why he isn't consistent. He cannot keep up and even though I rooted for him every GSL he wasn't the best player and you're stupid if you think different. See, I can argue like a 5 year old as well.
You have already proven that.
One sentence responses with no valid points or examples are for 5 year olds.... o wait! Watch every TvZ he played 2 Rax for a reason. Ro4 match results for Jinro 4-0 and 3-1 trashed badly. Why? Abuse + Idiots apparently = free ride to Ro4
Confusedcrib really seems to be confused. This was quite painful to read as TL articles are usually valued by everyone and for a reason. Lately some sections from sc2 articles however have been under the level.
Let's take the "upset" section first, someone even semi-closely following the scene can see this list is kinda way off. Like so many have already stated the names on the list are hardly "no names" and the real upset here is the section, not the results. Then there's the EG team house opinion(from not so known news writer, this should be irrelevant but it simply is so redudant in the article that the writer is going to get what he's asking for.) which not only seems very biased; hardly adds anything to the article. The "data" as in results from few runs hardly tells nothing, EG's teamhouse hasn't even operated long enough for all their players to really benefit from it, it's gonna take more than few months before the training and everything else should come off from their players.
I hope TL wakes up since news and articles are the thing which many people come to look and read here, anyone who reads the BW articles knows how simply awesome writers TL has managed to get. Of course you can't always write the most mind blowing articles but from what we're used to I'm sure the news and TL staff made content will surely deliver.
On November 28 2011 19:20 Zlasher wrote: How about Jinro? He didn't make any large run and he doesn't just live in a house for 4 months, he's been there for like 16 months practicing with what is the most represented Code S Korean team.
4th place GSL 2 times in the start dosent count? Yes he has fallen off after that but you dont need to say that he havent done anything...
I didn't say he hasn't done anything, but since then have his results been expected out of practicing with oGs for so long? Asking "Should Team Evil Geniuses Have Established a North American Team House?" is the same as asking if Jinro deserves to be practicing there, its absolutely ludicrous. Jinro 100% deserves to be practicing with oGs and is a top foreign contender. Just like there is absolutely no doubt that EG should have formed the house, why NOT form the house.
I was on incontrols stream when he got mad about this. All you do is bring up his arguments. There is no doubt that Jinro's succes in gsl can be attributed to his practice in the ogs house. Has nothing to do with deserving it.
Jinro is not a good example. Neither is TLO's house in sweden. That wasn't a even a teamhouse, it was just a bunch if friends living and practicing together, completely different from the EG house wich formed for the reason of making the eg members better. And after that you really have no more arguments.
I actually remember incontrol himself being critical on sotg towards some ppl that formed teamhouses. "You're not just gonna get good because you live in the same house" etc. Why to not invest in the teamhouse? Well im sure it costs money and might not give them much return. Now im sure that the EG teamhouse was a good idea for many reasons, but you can't get all mad when ppl claim that it hasn't done much as far as actually getting the players better.
Yes you can because the players have gotten better. No it hasn't turned Axslav and StrifeCro into champions, but the estro house didn't turn Idra into a BW great in Korea either. But both houses made those players better.
No you can't because you don't know how they would have fared just playing ladder from home.
Btw the because of the Estro/CJ training for idra he did get noticably better with better results and it did make him into a champion.
What im saying is that ofcourse people can look at their teamhouse that was specifically there to make the players better. Only EG themselves will know wether or not it has. But as an outsider you can def question the move, as far as making the players better. Just as incontrol did with the root house (or w/e house it was).
As i said there might be other reasons to make a teamhouse, but was it really worth from a performace point of view? who knows...
The EG players have gotten better since they moved into the team house, there is no doubt about that. Would they have done the same if they didnt live there? Thats an impossible question to answer. But we do know that EG has gotten better with the team house and thats why it is worth it.
MVP and Nestea don't live in the team house, but are two of the best players in the world. Why do any teams have team houses? Clearly team houses are pointless right?
And I never said Idra didn't get better in the Estro/CJ houses. I said he didn't become a BW legend in Korea, but he did improve greatly making him be in the house worth it.
On November 28 2011 19:20 Zlasher wrote: How about Jinro? He didn't make any large run and he doesn't just live in a house for 4 months, he's been there for like 16 months practicing with what is the most represented Code S Korean team.
4th place GSL 2 times in the start dosent count? Yes he has fallen off after that but you dont need to say that he havent done anything...
I didn't say he hasn't done anything, but since then have his results been expected out of practicing with oGs for so long? Asking "Should Team Evil Geniuses Have Established a North American Team House?" is the same as asking if Jinro deserves to be practicing there, its absolutely ludicrous. Jinro 100% deserves to be practicing with oGs and is a top foreign contender. Just like there is absolutely no doubt that EG should have formed the house, why NOT form the house.
Jinro is not a good example. Neither is TLO's house in sweden. That wasn't a even a teamhouse, it was just a bunch if friends living and practicing together, completely different from the EG house wich formed for the reason of making the eg members better.
I can't speak for EG but I'm pretty sure the Team House was formed in order to give their players an opportunity to truly become full time players and not live in the esports model of pre 2010. It also creates a central hub for their business as well as media production to occur, along with that, the reason is to give the players the practice environment of a Korean pro-house while still being in the West, where esports has had the explosion, not in Korea. The goal is not to here and now outright make players better, a few walls and a roof can't do that, but it can provide the scenario to get better. After 3-4 months of being in the house can we really say any of those players have gotten worse? Not only are they all streaming now but we, once again, have seen Idra break out of a slump, something a team house hasn't done for other players on other teams with the opportunity to be in a team house. That's just the most obvious example of someone who's gotten better as a result.
Not to mention how can we possibly be judging ALL of these houses based on one event? When you look at a list of the players who went two and out.
Actually im pretty sure it was specifically stated at the time the teamhouse was formed, that it was to make the players better by practicing in a house together. That's also what you were (and is still is) arguing for. I have said all along that it might be other reasons to have a team house, so it's kinda funny you're telling me that.
There just is nothing that indicates that most of the eg players have benefited from the house, and you can't compare it to any other house saying "well look at those guys they haven't benefited from their house either" - because their just isn't any similar house to the EG house. The fact that idra was even in a slump tells us that he was a good player already. Did he break out of the slump because of the EG house? maybe, maybe not. Does ONE PLAYER breaking out of a slump justify having a teamhouse? If you only have it to get more results and no one else is, then i would say "No".
So you are just against teamhouses then right? Not just the EG one. I mean who is to say how good MC could be living outside the oGs house.
I think part of the reason why Nani won the most dominating run over leenock was that, despite the fact that Leenock's opponents were harder, nobody thought nani could do well at dallas. He was still that BM kid from WC3 that nobody really cared about that much. He hadn't proven his worth in TSL3 at the time of MLG dallas. So his run was not just difficult, but it was shocking and surprising.
Leenock's was too, I don't think anybody would of picked leenock to win an event where nestea, MVP, Ganzi, Oz, HuK, HerO (just to name a few) were participating, but he had already established a fairly solid reputation of having some of the worlds best ZvT in GSL. Naniwa had done practically nothing of note, except for 4gating to win a few weekly cups.
And i'm a naniwa fanboy, so yeah I think his run was more impressive because of that.
its funny how full-time EG player goes on to bash TLAF.Liquid's players just because a member of TL.net community (relatively unimportant and random person) called out his own teammates in an article. i understand his emotions, but two wrongs don't make a right...
calling out EG house.. ok. Well TL abandoned korea cause their results were even worse there so maybe the investment of TL / oGs was a bad idea as well? A worse idea even...
but that'd be a dumb thing to say.. especially on an official article. We have had the house for 3 months and the results have gotten a helluva lot better but you are going to say it was a waste? get real.
the TL house produced EG's best preforming player and your saying they are doing bad? Jinro 2 times 4th place @ GSL. And bashing TL's team because someone is stateing the obvious, this comming from a offical EG member and not a Random News writer on a community site. pretty low if you ask me!..
On November 28 2011 20:17 snailz wrote: its funny how full-time EG player goes on to bash TLAF.Liquid's players just because a member of TL.net community (relatively unimportant and random person) called out his own teammates in an article. i understand your emotions, but two wrongs don't make a right...
calling out EG house.. ok. Well TL abandoned korea cause their results were even worse there so maybe the investment of TL / oGs was a bad idea as well? A worse idea even...
but that'd be a dumb thing to say.. especially on an official article. We have had the house for 3 months and the results have gotten a helluva lot better but you are going to say it was a waste? get real.
the TL house produced EG's best preforming player and your saying they are doing bad? Jinro 2 times 4th place @ GSL. And bashing TL's team because someone is stateing the obvious, this comming from a offical EG member and not a Random News writer on a community site. pretty low if you ask me!..
nobody is asking you.
stay classy incontrol
Where did incontrol bash liquid guys? And sure it was written by a "relatively unimportant and random person" but the TL staff approved this article and it represents TL as a whole.
On November 28 2011 20:16 marttorn wrote: I think part of the reason why Nani won the most dominating run over leenock was that, despite the fact that Leenock's opponents were harder, nobody thought nani could do well at dallas. He was still that BM kid from WC3 that nobody really cared about that much. He hadn't proven his worth in TSL3 at the time of MLG dallas. So his run was not just difficult, but it was shocking and surprising.
Leenock's was too, I don't think anybody would of picked leenock to win an event where nestea, MVP, Ganzi, Oz, HuK, HerO (just to name a few) were participating, but he had already established a fairly solid reputation of having some of the worlds best ZvT in GSL. Naniwa had done practically nothing of note, except for 4gating to win a few weekly cups.
And i'm a naniwa fanboy, so yeah I think his run was more impressive because of that.
Leenock = Korean Nani = white guy
That is why his run was "dominating" though if you include the invitational beating the supposed best T and Z in the world is pretty damn good and losing to Z like Leenock isn't the worst thing to happen to a pro player.
I don't quite look at the EG team house part as pure, raw dissing of EG, even though I can understand people viewing it that way, but rather as a piece expressing concerns about foreign team houses.
Team houses have obviously been the way to go for Korean teams, and have been working out great for them. Therefore most people, including me, were very excited when EG set up their team house. EG set a precedent for foreign team houses, something that other teams will surely look at when deciding if it is worth it for them setting up their own. In this way how the EG players perform is important to anyone who wants to see the foreign scene developing.
The problem is that it seems as if a majority of EG players have not been improving at the rate the rest of us would expect of players living in a team house. Maybe they are performing better in practice and having a hard time in tournaments? I don't know, but the results doesn't seem to be there at this point.
Now I want to point out that I am a huge fan of all people who commit fully to something and a firm believer that hard work will pay off in the end. I was not a huge Naniwa fan (in fact I was way over on the other side due to how he behaved during the early period of the game after release), but after his decision to move to Korea he has shown more dedication than most and earned back most of his respect with me. Same goes for Sase. And I will blindly cheer for Jinro no matter who he faces for his incredible commitment to stay in the oGs house.
That also means that I want the EG players to do well. Moving into a team house shows commitment for sure. And if they are putting in the practice they say they are, which I'm not really in any position to doubt, I believe they will put out the results in the end.
But it's still a bit concerning that they haven't yet. Maybe some changes would help bring the EG team house to the level of rapid improvement we associate with the Korean team houses. I can't help but feel that, just as someone brought up before, the coach is an important part of the Korean team houses success. As far as I understand the EG house does not have a coach with its players, please correct me if I'm wrong. I think a coach that helps players setting up their practice, helps preparing them for tournaments and whatever else a coach may do fills a very important roll in a team house.
That is how I view the piece about the EG house at least. Not as hate, but as concern.
On November 28 2011 19:20 Zlasher wrote: How about Jinro? He didn't make any large run and he doesn't just live in a house for 4 months, he's been there for like 16 months practicing with what is the most represented Code S Korean team.
4th place GSL 2 times in the start dosent count? Yes he has fallen off after that but you dont need to say that he havent done anything...
I didn't say he hasn't done anything, but since then have his results been expected out of practicing with oGs for so long? Asking "Should Team Evil Geniuses Have Established a North American Team House?" is the same as asking if Jinro deserves to be practicing there, its absolutely ludicrous. Jinro 100% deserves to be practicing with oGs and is a top foreign contender. Just like there is absolutely no doubt that EG should have formed the house, why NOT form the house.
Jinro is not a good example. Neither is TLO's house in sweden. That wasn't a even a teamhouse, it was just a bunch if friends living and practicing together, completely different from the EG house wich formed for the reason of making the eg members better.
I can't speak for EG but I'm pretty sure the Team House was formed in order to give their players an opportunity to truly become full time players and not live in the esports model of pre 2010. It also creates a central hub for their business as well as media production to occur, along with that, the reason is to give the players the practice environment of a Korean pro-house while still being in the West, where esports has had the explosion, not in Korea. The goal is not to here and now outright make players better, a few walls and a roof can't do that, but it can provide the scenario to get better. After 3-4 months of being in the house can we really say any of those players have gotten worse? Not only are they all streaming now but we, once again, have seen Idra break out of a slump, something a team house hasn't done for other players on other teams with the opportunity to be in a team house. That's just the most obvious example of someone who's gotten better as a result.
Not to mention how can we possibly be judging ALL of these houses based on one event? When you look at a list of the players who went two and out.
Actually im pretty sure it was specifically stated at the time the teamhouse was formed, that it was to make the players better by practicing in a house together. That's also what you were (and is still is) arguing for. I have said all along that it might be other reasons to have a team house, so it's kinda funny you're telling me that.
There just is nothing that indicates that most of the eg players have benefited from the house, and you can't compare it to any other house saying "well look at those guys they haven't benefited from their house either" - because their just isn't any similar house to the EG house. The fact that idra was even in a slump tells us that he was a good player already. Did he break out of the slump because of the EG house? maybe, maybe not. Does ONE PLAYER breaking out of a slump justify having a teamhouse? If you only have it to get more results and no one else is, then i would say "No".
So you are just against teamhouses then right? Not just the EG one. I mean who is to say how good MC could be living outside the oGs house.
ME? No im not against teamhouses. NO im NOT against EG's house. plz read.
There is alot to indicate that the ogs house makes their players better. Not when it comes to EG. Now obv you can never say for sure. Both jinro and huk became very good after living at the ogs house. No eg player has showing noticably better results since moving to the house. Maybe idra.
Were the writers for "Should Team Evil Geniuses Have Established a North American Team House?" and "Who is GoSu.Gatored?" the same person? According to the article it is the same person, but those two sections contradict each other so hard that I can't help but wonder how the hell this made it to the front page.
In the former section we have the writer saying "losses to Gatored and dde when you live in a team house are hard to justify.", while in the latter we have "At IEM New York, Gatored was able to take out Strelok, DongRaeGu, and oGsTop."
Those two points obviously contradict each other, and they're formatted into adjacent sections as well. What...? Along with the aforementioned "Upsets" and "No-names" sections, leads me to question how this writer is a writer in the first place, and how the editor even allowed this to make it to the front page.
Calling out the EG team house is baseless for and dumb. The thing has been around for 3 months and people are already saying "well it wasn't worth it, they are not winning everything." There are a number of reasons why the house is a good idea. Travel to events must be easier to manage. I could go on.
I hate to accuse someone of headline grabbing, but that part of the article seems like an attempt rile some people up and get a large, polarized response.
Yeah, quite a few of us figured the NA house wouldn't work out a while ago as many of them were living together already. It comes down to how you practice more than anything else. Culture baby!
Yes, Leenock was totally in the zone as Hwanni put it.
We have to be careful when we start throwing labels around like best in the word. Way to early and those were never invisible. 3 GSL titles is good, but still way to early. This should shock no one. There is still a lot of division between what I like to call the top pro's compared to the close but no cigar ones to the top 16s, 32s and so on.
On November 28 2011 19:20 Zlasher wrote: How about Jinro? He didn't make any large run and he doesn't just live in a house for 4 months, he's been there for like 16 months practicing with what is the most represented Code S Korean team.
4th place GSL 2 times in the start dosent count? Yes he has fallen off after that but you dont need to say that he havent done anything...
I didn't say he hasn't done anything, but since then have his results been expected out of practicing with oGs for so long? Asking "Should Team Evil Geniuses Have Established a North American Team House?" is the same as asking if Jinro deserves to be practicing there, its absolutely ludicrous. Jinro 100% deserves to be practicing with oGs and is a top foreign contender. Just like there is absolutely no doubt that EG should have formed the house, why NOT form the house.
Jinro is not a good example. Neither is TLO's house in sweden. That wasn't a even a teamhouse, it was just a bunch if friends living and practicing together, completely different from the EG house wich formed for the reason of making the eg members better.
I can't speak for EG but I'm pretty sure the Team House was formed in order to give their players an opportunity to truly become full time players and not live in the esports model of pre 2010. It also creates a central hub for their business as well as media production to occur, along with that, the reason is to give the players the practice environment of a Korean pro-house while still being in the West, where esports has had the explosion, not in Korea. The goal is not to here and now outright make players better, a few walls and a roof can't do that, but it can provide the scenario to get better. After 3-4 months of being in the house can we really say any of those players have gotten worse? Not only are they all streaming now but we, once again, have seen Idra break out of a slump, something a team house hasn't done for other players on other teams with the opportunity to be in a team house. That's just the most obvious example of someone who's gotten better as a result.
Not to mention how can we possibly be judging ALL of these houses based on one event? When you look at a list of the players who went two and out.
Actually im pretty sure it was specifically stated at the time the teamhouse was formed, that it was to make the players better by practicing in a house together. That's also what you were (and is still is) arguing for. I have said all along that it might be other reasons to have a team house, so it's kinda funny you're telling me that.
There just is nothing that indicates that most of the eg players have benefited from the house, and you can't compare it to any other house saying "well look at those guys they haven't benefited from their house either" - because their just isn't any similar house to the EG house. The fact that idra was even in a slump tells us that he was a good player already. Did he break out of the slump because of the EG house? maybe, maybe not. Does ONE PLAYER breaking out of a slump justify having a teamhouse? If you only have it to get more results and no one else is, then i would say "No".
So you are just against teamhouses then right? Not just the EG one. I mean who is to say how good MC could be living outside the oGs house.
ME? No im not against teamhouses. NO im NOT against EG's house. plz read.
There is alot to indicate that the ogs house makes their players better. Not when it comes to EG. Now obv you can never say for sure. Both jinro and huk became very good after living at the ogs house. No eg player has showing noticably better results since moving to the house. Maybe idra.
How has the oGs house indicated it makes their players better than the EG house? How do we know what those players would have done if they lived somewhere else? The same question you ask about the EG players.
No one truly knows. But we do know that players have improved since they moved into the houses. Your argument doesn't really make sense.
As for the teamhouse thing; I think it's obvious that players can and will improve if they are in a structured environment where they have a minimal amount of practice (say, 8 hours) they have to put in every day. However, a concern that I believe was raised in a certain other article by tree.hugger is that there is no coach at the EG team house.
I understand that Alex has been helping IdrA recently in particular with his mindset, but that's not really his job. It should be the job of a coach, which is an integral part of the korean BW house structure. Hell, even SC2 houses in Korea have Coaches as a mainstay of their houses. Coaches are a patriarchal figure for the players that help them with every aspect of their play and mindset.
Imagine SlayerS without BoxeR. Imagine SKT1 without BoxeR. Imagine TSL without Coach Lee, etc. etc.
I think another reason why some people are raising doubts of the EG team house is because they expect too much to early. Don't expect Axslav and Strife to instantly fulfill 100% of their potential just because they're in a structured team house. It takes time, and everybody there probably improves at their own, unique pace.
I'm not saying that the EG house is like a perfect recreation of the korean BW house and we just haven't seen it yet (it would be arrogant of me to claim otherwise) but give them some time.
On November 28 2011 20:17 snailz wrote: its funny how full-time EG player goes on to bash TLAF.Liquid's players just because a member of TL.net community (relatively unimportant and random person) called out his own teammates in an article. i understand your emotions, but two wrongs don't make a right...
On November 28 2011 19:42 iNcontroL wrote:
On November 28 2011 19:40 GLLvz wrote:
On November 28 2011 18:49 iNcontroL wrote: wow
calling out EG house.. ok. Well TL abandoned korea cause their results were even worse there so maybe the investment of TL / oGs was a bad idea as well? A worse idea even...
but that'd be a dumb thing to say.. especially on an official article. We have had the house for 3 months and the results have gotten a helluva lot better but you are going to say it was a waste? get real.
the TL house produced EG's best preforming player and your saying they are doing bad? Jinro 2 times 4th place @ GSL. And bashing TL's team because someone is stateing the obvious, this comming from a offical EG member and not a Random News writer on a community site. pretty low if you ask me!..
nobody is asking you.
stay classy incontrol
Where did incontrol bash liquid guys? And sure it was written by a "relatively unimportant and random person" but the TL staff approved this article and it represents TL as a whole.
ok here goes ---->
On November 28 2011 18:49 iNcontroL wrote: wow
calling out EG house.. ok. Well TL abandoned korea cause their results were even worse there so maybe the investment of TL / oGs was a bad idea as well? A worse idea even...
but that'd be a dumb thing to say.. especially on an official article. We have had the house for 3 months and the results have gotten a helluva lot better but you are going to say it was a waste? get real.
bolded part is semi-bashing, because it's just not true. TLO played in GSL ro64 Opens, Jinro was 2x Code S semifinalist, and while on Liquid Huk got into Code S and became, well, Huk. Ret and Haypro didnt do so well, but i'd say Liquid/oGs partnership that incontrol calls out payed for itself. at a time, they still did better in korea than EG guys who went over there, including idra (that jungle basin!)
On November 28 2011 19:41 iNcontroL wrote: Everyone and their mother could call out TL for their results and their partnership/house with oGs but they don't because that would be a dumb thing to do in this community.. and yet the #1 community website goes out and calls out their rival while turning the blinders to their own crowd of players who are "carried" by players who churn out less results than the ones who carry EG... wtf.
first bolded part... Sheth and Ret did great in last two MLG's, Huk was bought out, Haypro took out Nestea but ok didnt do so well elsewhere, and Tyler showed signs of life against Choya even tho nobody expects anything from him, while TLO attended MLG Orlando literally injured for christ sake. Hero is as Liquid as Puma is EG, so im not even gonna count those guys results into this. what did EG guys do? and yes i know that incontrol fucked himself over with good performance at the start of the year and would actually get less shit if he didnt play in Group Stages against best in the world, but what about other EG guys? except Idra, i really dont see how they performed better than TLAF'Liquid guys, when we exclude their koreans. and im not talkin only about MLG, but other tournies, where Liquid guys like Ret and Sheth had great success.
second bolded part... if he thinks people see EG as Huk and PuMa then that's maybe where he's wrong. same goes for Liquid and Hero, soon Zenio. in that context, paragraph that was posted about EG results can be brought to disucssion. even FXOpen posted something along that lines. i agree with what incontrol is saying about houses and how they should never be questioned, because its not fair (they were the ones to take the risk so why would they get bad rep for doing foreigners a favour in the long run). but, he shouldnt bash Liquid guys in the process...
On November 28 2011 20:17 snailz wrote: its funny how full-time EG player goes on to bash TLAF.Liquid's players just because a member of TL.net community (relatively unimportant and random person) called out his own teammates in an article. i understand your emotions, but two wrongs don't make a right...
On November 28 2011 19:42 iNcontroL wrote:
On November 28 2011 19:40 GLLvz wrote:
On November 28 2011 18:49 iNcontroL wrote: wow
calling out EG house.. ok. Well TL abandoned korea cause their results were even worse there so maybe the investment of TL / oGs was a bad idea as well? A worse idea even...
but that'd be a dumb thing to say.. especially on an official article. We have had the house for 3 months and the results have gotten a helluva lot better but you are going to say it was a waste? get real.
the TL house produced EG's best preforming player and your saying they are doing bad? Jinro 2 times 4th place @ GSL. And bashing TL's team because someone is stateing the obvious, this comming from a offical EG member and not a Random News writer on a community site. pretty low if you ask me!..
nobody is asking you.
stay classy incontrol
Where did incontrol bash liquid guys? And sure it was written by a "relatively unimportant and random person" but the TL staff approved this article and it represents TL as a whole.
calling out EG house.. ok. Well TL abandoned korea cause their results were even worse there so maybe the investment of TL / oGs was a bad idea as well? A worse idea even...
but that'd be a dumb thing to say.. especially on an official article. We have had the house for 3 months and the results have gotten a helluva lot better but you are going to say it was a waste? get real.
bolded part is semi-bashing, because it's just not true. TLO played in GSL ro64 Opens, Jinro was 2x Code S semifinalist, and while on Liquid Huk got into Code S and became, well, Huk. Ret and Haypro didnt do so well, but i'd say Liquid/oGs partnership that incontrol calls out payed for itself. at a time, they still did better in korea than EG guys who went over there, including idra.
On November 28 2011 19:41 iNcontroL wrote: Everyone and their mother could call out TL for their results and their partnership/house with oGs but they don't because that would be a dumb thing to do in this community.. and yet the #1 community website goes out and calls out their rival while turning the blinders to their own crowd of players who are "carried" by players who churn out less results than the ones who carry EG... wtf.
first bolded part... Sheth and Ret did great in last two MLG's, Huk was bought out, Haypro took out Nestea but ok didnt do so well elsewhere, and Tyler showed signs of life against Choya, while TLO attended MLG Orlando literally injured for christ sake. Hero is as Liquid as Puma is, so im not even gonna count those guys results into this. what did EG guys do? and yes i know that incontrol fucked himself over with good performance at the start of the year and would actually get less shit if he didnt play in Group Stages against best in the world, but what about other EG guys? except Idra, i really dont see how they performed better than TLAF'Liquid guys, when we exclude their koreans. and im not talkin only about MLG, but other tournies, where Liquid guys like Ret and Sheth had great success.
second bolded part... if he think people see EG as Huk and PuMa then that's maybe where he's wrong. same goes for Liquid and Hero, soon Zenio. in that context, paragraph that was posted about EG results can be brought to disucssion. even FXOpen posted something along that lines. i agree with what incontrol is saying about houses and how they should never be questioned, because its not fair (they were the ones to take the risk so why would they get bad rep for doing foreigners a favour in the long run). but, he shouldnt bash Liquid guys in the process...
On November 28 2011 20:17 snailz wrote: its funny how full-time EG player goes on to bash TLAF.Liquid's players just because a member of TL.net community (relatively unimportant and random person) called out his own teammates in an article. i understand your emotions, but two wrongs don't make a right...
On November 28 2011 19:42 iNcontroL wrote:
On November 28 2011 19:40 GLLvz wrote:
On November 28 2011 18:49 iNcontroL wrote: wow
calling out EG house.. ok. Well TL abandoned korea cause their results were even worse there so maybe the investment of TL / oGs was a bad idea as well? A worse idea even...
but that'd be a dumb thing to say.. especially on an official article. We have had the house for 3 months and the results have gotten a helluva lot better but you are going to say it was a waste? get real.
the TL house produced EG's best preforming player and your saying they are doing bad? Jinro 2 times 4th place @ GSL. And bashing TL's team because someone is stateing the obvious, this comming from a offical EG member and not a Random News writer on a community site. pretty low if you ask me!..
nobody is asking you.
stay classy incontrol
Where did incontrol bash liquid guys? And sure it was written by a "relatively unimportant and random person" but the TL staff approved this article and it represents TL as a whole.
Mmm, if you scroll down a bit, I thought it says
The opinions expressed by our users do not reflect the official position of TeamLiquid.net or its staff.
On November 28 2011 19:20 Zlasher wrote: How about Jinro? He didn't make any large run and he doesn't just live in a house for 4 months, he's been there for like 16 months practicing with what is the most represented Code S Korean team.
4th place GSL 2 times in the start dosent count? Yes he has fallen off after that but you dont need to say that he havent done anything...
I didn't say he hasn't done anything, but since then have his results been expected out of practicing with oGs for so long? Asking "Should Team Evil Geniuses Have Established a North American Team House?" is the same as asking if Jinro deserves to be practicing there, its absolutely ludicrous. Jinro 100% deserves to be practicing with oGs and is a top foreign contender. Just like there is absolutely no doubt that EG should have formed the house, why NOT form the house.
Jinro is not a good example. Neither is TLO's house in sweden. That wasn't a even a teamhouse, it was just a bunch if friends living and practicing together, completely different from the EG house wich formed for the reason of making the eg members better.
I can't speak for EG but I'm pretty sure the Team House was formed in order to give their players an opportunity to truly become full time players and not live in the esports model of pre 2010. It also creates a central hub for their business as well as media production to occur, along with that, the reason is to give the players the practice environment of a Korean pro-house while still being in the West, where esports has had the explosion, not in Korea. The goal is not to here and now outright make players better, a few walls and a roof can't do that, but it can provide the scenario to get better. After 3-4 months of being in the house can we really say any of those players have gotten worse? Not only are they all streaming now but we, once again, have seen Idra break out of a slump, something a team house hasn't done for other players on other teams with the opportunity to be in a team house. That's just the most obvious example of someone who's gotten better as a result.
Not to mention how can we possibly be judging ALL of these houses based on one event? When you look at a list of the players who went two and out.
Actually im pretty sure it was specifically stated at the time the teamhouse was formed, that it was to make the players better by practicing in a house together. That's also what you were (and is still is) arguing for. I have said all along that it might be other reasons to have a team house, so it's kinda funny you're telling me that.
There just is nothing that indicates that most of the eg players have benefited from the house, and you can't compare it to any other house saying "well look at those guys they haven't benefited from their house either" - because their just isn't any similar house to the EG house. The fact that idra was even in a slump tells us that he was a good player already. Did he break out of the slump because of the EG house? maybe, maybe not. Does ONE PLAYER breaking out of a slump justify having a teamhouse? If you only have it to get more results and no one else is, then i would say "No".
So you are just against teamhouses then right? Not just the EG one. I mean who is to say how good MC could be living outside the oGs house.
ME? No im not against teamhouses. NO im NOT against EG's house. plz read.
There is alot to indicate that the ogs house makes their players better. Not when it comes to EG. Now obv you can never say for sure. Both jinro and huk became very good after living at the ogs house. No eg player has showing noticably better results since moving to the house. Maybe idra.
How has the oGs house indicated it makes their players better than the EG house? How do we know what those players would have done if they lived somewhere else? The same question you ask about the EG players.
No one truly knows. But we do know that players have improved since they moved into the houses. Your argument doesn't really make sense.
My argument? How are you using "my" argument against me by claiming the same thing but it doesn't adhere to your argument???
Im saying that we can't truly know how the teamhouse has affected these players skill level. You are saying the same, so what's the problem?
When we discuss the teamhouses we have to look past that. Ogs house has made alot of players succesful, for example huk and jinro has done great AFTER joining the house. No one on EG has started doing really good after joining the house. See there? See the comparison? Nothing indicates that the EG house is making their players better, you can't say that about the ogs house.
On November 28 2011 20:17 snailz wrote: its funny how full-time EG player goes on to bash TLAF.Liquid's players just because a member of TL.net community (relatively unimportant and random person) called out his own teammates in an article. i understand your emotions, but two wrongs don't make a right...
On November 28 2011 19:42 iNcontroL wrote:
On November 28 2011 19:40 GLLvz wrote:
On November 28 2011 18:49 iNcontroL wrote: wow
calling out EG house.. ok. Well TL abandoned korea cause their results were even worse there so maybe the investment of TL / oGs was a bad idea as well? A worse idea even...
but that'd be a dumb thing to say.. especially on an official article. We have had the house for 3 months and the results have gotten a helluva lot better but you are going to say it was a waste? get real.
the TL house produced EG's best preforming player and your saying they are doing bad? Jinro 2 times 4th place @ GSL. And bashing TL's team because someone is stateing the obvious, this comming from a offical EG member and not a Random News writer on a community site. pretty low if you ask me!..
nobody is asking you.
stay classy incontrol
Where did incontrol bash liquid guys? And sure it was written by a "relatively unimportant and random person" but the TL staff approved this article and it represents TL as a whole.
On November 28 2011 19:20 Zlasher wrote: How about Jinro? He didn't make any large run and he doesn't just live in a house for 4 months, he's been there for like 16 months practicing with what is the most represented Code S Korean team.
4th place GSL 2 times in the start dosent count? Yes he has fallen off after that but you dont need to say that he havent done anything...
I didn't say he hasn't done anything, but since then have his results been expected out of practicing with oGs for so long? Asking "Should Team Evil Geniuses Have Established a North American Team House?" is the same as asking if Jinro deserves to be practicing there, its absolutely ludicrous. Jinro 100% deserves to be practicing with oGs and is a top foreign contender. Just like there is absolutely no doubt that EG should have formed the house, why NOT form the house.
Jinro is not a good example. Neither is TLO's house in sweden. That wasn't a even a teamhouse, it was just a bunch if friends living and practicing together, completely different from the EG house wich formed for the reason of making the eg members better.
I can't speak for EG but I'm pretty sure the Team House was formed in order to give their players an opportunity to truly become full time players and not live in the esports model of pre 2010. It also creates a central hub for their business as well as media production to occur, along with that, the reason is to give the players the practice environment of a Korean pro-house while still being in the West, where esports has had the explosion, not in Korea. The goal is not to here and now outright make players better, a few walls and a roof can't do that, but it can provide the scenario to get better. After 3-4 months of being in the house can we really say any of those players have gotten worse? Not only are they all streaming now but we, once again, have seen Idra break out of a slump, something a team house hasn't done for other players on other teams with the opportunity to be in a team house. That's just the most obvious example of someone who's gotten better as a result.
Not to mention how can we possibly be judging ALL of these houses based on one event? When you look at a list of the players who went two and out.
Actually im pretty sure it was specifically stated at the time the teamhouse was formed, that it was to make the players better by practicing in a house together. That's also what you were (and is still is) arguing for. I have said all along that it might be other reasons to have a team house, so it's kinda funny you're telling me that.
There just is nothing that indicates that most of the eg players have benefited from the house, and you can't compare it to any other house saying "well look at those guys they haven't benefited from their house either" - because their just isn't any similar house to the EG house. The fact that idra was even in a slump tells us that he was a good player already. Did he break out of the slump because of the EG house? maybe, maybe not. Does ONE PLAYER breaking out of a slump justify having a teamhouse? If you only have it to get more results and no one else is, then i would say "No".
So you are just against teamhouses then right? Not just the EG one. I mean who is to say how good MC could be living outside the oGs house.
ME? No im not against teamhouses. NO im NOT against EG's house. plz read.
There is alot to indicate that the ogs house makes their players better. Not when it comes to EG. Now obv you can never say for sure. Both jinro and huk became very good after living at the ogs house. No eg player has showing noticably better results since moving to the house. Maybe idra.
How has the oGs house indicated it makes their players better than the EG house? How do we know what those players would have done if they lived somewhere else? The same question you ask about the EG players.
No one truly knows. But we do know that players have improved since they moved into the houses. Your argument doesn't really make sense.
My argument? How are you using "my" argument against me by claiming the same thing but it doesn't adhere to your argument???
Im saying that we can't truly know how the teamhouse has affected these players skill level. You are saying the same, so what's the problem?
When we discuss the teamhouses we have to look past that. Ogs house has made alot of players succesful, for example huk and jinro has done great AFTER joining the house. No one on EG has started doing really good after joining the house. See there? See the comparison? Nothing indicates that the EG house is making their players better, you can't say that about the ogs house.
I can actually say the opposite. Jinro is actually getting worse as he stays in the OGS/TL house. He posted results before, but now he's nowhere to be found. Because of that we should just close down the OGS/TL house right? That's the ignorant, offbase, kneejerk conclusion that the writer made concerning the EG house.
On November 28 2011 20:17 snailz wrote: its funny how full-time EG player goes on to bash TLAF.Liquid's players just because a member of TL.net community (relatively unimportant and random person) called out his own teammates in an article. i understand your emotions, but two wrongs don't make a right...
On November 28 2011 19:42 iNcontroL wrote:
On November 28 2011 19:40 GLLvz wrote:
On November 28 2011 18:49 iNcontroL wrote: wow
calling out EG house.. ok. Well TL abandoned korea cause their results were even worse there so maybe the investment of TL / oGs was a bad idea as well? A worse idea even...
but that'd be a dumb thing to say.. especially on an official article. We have had the house for 3 months and the results have gotten a helluva lot better but you are going to say it was a waste? get real.
the TL house produced EG's best preforming player and your saying they are doing bad? Jinro 2 times 4th place @ GSL. And bashing TL's team because someone is stateing the obvious, this comming from a offical EG member and not a Random News writer on a community site. pretty low if you ask me!..
nobody is asking you.
stay classy incontrol
Where did incontrol bash liquid guys? And sure it was written by a "relatively unimportant and random person" but the TL staff approved this article and it represents TL as a whole.
Also game 2, loss or not look at how much damage he did in his slow death and how close he came to winning. Even if he loses this series it's hard to deny just how much dominance he can still exert.
Edit: aside from a fail depot lowering in the last game that was a great series between the two showcasing that both are amazing players and that MVP is is certainly a contender for title of best player..
On November 28 2011 20:17 snailz wrote: its funny how full-time EG player goes on to bash TLAF.Liquid's players just because a member of TL.net community (relatively unimportant and random person) called out his own teammates in an article. i understand your emotions, but two wrongs don't make a right...
On November 28 2011 19:42 iNcontroL wrote:
On November 28 2011 19:40 GLLvz wrote:
On November 28 2011 18:49 iNcontroL wrote: wow
calling out EG house.. ok. Well TL abandoned korea cause their results were even worse there so maybe the investment of TL / oGs was a bad idea as well? A worse idea even...
but that'd be a dumb thing to say.. especially on an official article. We have had the house for 3 months and the results have gotten a helluva lot better but you are going to say it was a waste? get real.
the TL house produced EG's best preforming player and your saying they are doing bad? Jinro 2 times 4th place @ GSL. And bashing TL's team because someone is stateing the obvious, this comming from a offical EG member and not a Random News writer on a community site. pretty low if you ask me!..
nobody is asking you.
stay classy incontrol
Where did incontrol bash liquid guys? And sure it was written by a "relatively unimportant and random person" but the TL staff approved this article and it represents TL as a whole.
On November 28 2011 20:17 snailz wrote: its funny how full-time EG player goes on to bash TLAF.Liquid's players just because a member of TL.net community (relatively unimportant and random person) called out his own teammates in an article. i understand your emotions, but two wrongs don't make a right...
On November 28 2011 19:42 iNcontroL wrote:
On November 28 2011 19:40 GLLvz wrote:
On November 28 2011 18:49 iNcontroL wrote: wow
calling out EG house.. ok. Well TL abandoned korea cause their results were even worse there so maybe the investment of TL / oGs was a bad idea as well? A worse idea even...
but that'd be a dumb thing to say.. especially on an official article. We have had the house for 3 months and the results have gotten a helluva lot better but you are going to say it was a waste? get real.
the TL house produced EG's best preforming player and your saying they are doing bad? Jinro 2 times 4th place @ GSL. And bashing TL's team because someone is stateing the obvious, this comming from a offical EG member and not a Random News writer on a community site. pretty low if you ask me!..
nobody is asking you.
stay classy incontrol
Where did incontrol bash liquid guys? And sure it was written by a "relatively unimportant and random person" but the TL staff approved this article and it represents TL as a whole.
Mmm, if you scroll down a bit, I thought it says
The opinions expressed by our users do not reflect the official position of TeamLiquid.net or its staff.
?
This wasn't a user. It was a TL writer posted by a TL admin. This is TL staff material, not a user like you or me.
jmbthirteen is absoultely right, TL users =/= TL writers/staff/admins. it isrepresentative of TL.net opinions.
which many people tend to agree with, even though they perhaps think it's still a dick move. so better to get it out in the open, or? i don't think even the writer knew what was better... after GSL expect 100 pages shitstorm from crazy fanboys, tho
On November 28 2011 19:20 Zlasher wrote: How about Jinro? He didn't make any large run and he doesn't just live in a house for 4 months, he's been there for like 16 months practicing with what is the most represented Code S Korean team.
4th place GSL 2 times in the start dosent count? Yes he has fallen off after that but you dont need to say that he havent done anything...
I didn't say he hasn't done anything, but since then have his results been expected out of practicing with oGs for so long? Asking "Should Team Evil Geniuses Have Established a North American Team House?" is the same as asking if Jinro deserves to be practicing there, its absolutely ludicrous. Jinro 100% deserves to be practicing with oGs and is a top foreign contender. Just like there is absolutely no doubt that EG should have formed the house, why NOT form the house.
Jinro is not a good example. Neither is TLO's house in sweden. That wasn't a even a teamhouse, it was just a bunch if friends living and practicing together, completely different from the EG house wich formed for the reason of making the eg members better.
I can't speak for EG but I'm pretty sure the Team House was formed in order to give their players an opportunity to truly become full time players and not live in the esports model of pre 2010. It also creates a central hub for their business as well as media production to occur, along with that, the reason is to give the players the practice environment of a Korean pro-house while still being in the West, where esports has had the explosion, not in Korea. The goal is not to here and now outright make players better, a few walls and a roof can't do that, but it can provide the scenario to get better. After 3-4 months of being in the house can we really say any of those players have gotten worse? Not only are they all streaming now but we, once again, have seen Idra break out of a slump, something a team house hasn't done for other players on other teams with the opportunity to be in a team house. That's just the most obvious example of someone who's gotten better as a result.
Not to mention how can we possibly be judging ALL of these houses based on one event? When you look at a list of the players who went two and out.
Actually im pretty sure it was specifically stated at the time the teamhouse was formed, that it was to make the players better by practicing in a house together. That's also what you were (and is still is) arguing for. I have said all along that it might be other reasons to have a team house, so it's kinda funny you're telling me that.
There just is nothing that indicates that most of the eg players have benefited from the house, and you can't compare it to any other house saying "well look at those guys they haven't benefited from their house either" - because their just isn't any similar house to the EG house. The fact that idra was even in a slump tells us that he was a good player already. Did he break out of the slump because of the EG house? maybe, maybe not. Does ONE PLAYER breaking out of a slump justify having a teamhouse? If you only have it to get more results and no one else is, then i would say "No".
So you are just against teamhouses then right? Not just the EG one. I mean who is to say how good MC could be living outside the oGs house.
ME? No im not against teamhouses. NO im NOT against EG's house. plz read.
There is alot to indicate that the ogs house makes their players better. Not when it comes to EG. Now obv you can never say for sure. Both jinro and huk became very good after living at the ogs house. No eg player has showing noticably better results since moving to the house. Maybe idra.
How has the oGs house indicated it makes their players better than the EG house? How do we know what those players would have done if they lived somewhere else? The same question you ask about the EG players.
No one truly knows. But we do know that players have improved since they moved into the houses. Your argument doesn't really make sense.
My argument? How are you using "my" argument against me by claiming the same thing but it doesn't adhere to your argument???
Im saying that we can't truly know how the teamhouse has affected these players skill level. You are saying the same, so what's the problem?
When we discuss the teamhouses we have to look past that. Ogs house has made alot of players succesful, for example huk and jinro has done great AFTER joining the house. No one on EG has started doing really good after joining the house. See there? See the comparison? Nothing indicates that the EG house is making their players better, you can't say that about the ogs house.
No, I'm not using your argument, I'm applying your argument to a house you said does help when you have no proof that it does to show that its a bad argument. Its way too early to say the EG house isn't producing results and not worth it.
How can you say no one in the EG house started doing well after moving into the house? Idra started winning, DeMuslim has been doing great. Axslav and Machine have both improved their play, posting better results than before too.
Sure, nothing indicates they are doing better if you ignore their improvements.
yeah yeah same old news from bias people that thinks the rest of the world is catching up on the koreans, well guess what... THEY ARENT!!!!
MLG put Puzzle,Ganzi,Oz and Keen in the same losers bracket group, while guys like DDE and spanishwa + MajOr gets a walkover with no koreans. then of course it is easy to understand that they didnt make it to championship sunday when they have to take out eachother in losers bracket when they are having to fight with Leenock,Nestea,MVP and HerO for winner bracket spots.
fact of the matter is that only Naniwa and Haypro surprised in MLG along with TLO who did awesome as zerg. and in 3 months they will all except TLO have slumped back to their winning rates of tournaments before Providence. Korea will still be the best along with the 3 from EG
On November 28 2011 20:17 snailz wrote: its funny how full-time EG player goes on to bash TLAF.Liquid's players just because a member of TL.net community (relatively unimportant and random person) called out his own teammates in an article. i understand your emotions, but two wrongs don't make a right...
On November 28 2011 19:42 iNcontroL wrote:
On November 28 2011 19:40 GLLvz wrote:
On November 28 2011 18:49 iNcontroL wrote: wow
calling out EG house.. ok. Well TL abandoned korea cause their results were even worse there so maybe the investment of TL / oGs was a bad idea as well? A worse idea even...
but that'd be a dumb thing to say.. especially on an official article. We have had the house for 3 months and the results have gotten a helluva lot better but you are going to say it was a waste? get real.
the TL house produced EG's best preforming player and your saying they are doing bad? Jinro 2 times 4th place @ GSL. And bashing TL's team because someone is stateing the obvious, this comming from a offical EG member and not a Random News writer on a community site. pretty low if you ask me!..
nobody is asking you.
stay classy incontrol
Where did incontrol bash liquid guys? And sure it was written by a "relatively unimportant and random person" but the TL staff approved this article and it represents TL as a whole.
ok here goes ---->
On November 28 2011 18:49 iNcontroL wrote: wow
calling out EG house.. ok. Well TL abandoned korea cause their results were even worse there so maybe the investment of TL / oGs was a bad idea as well? A worse idea even...
but that'd be a dumb thing to say.. especially on an official article. We have had the house for 3 months and the results have gotten a helluva lot better but you are going to say it was a waste? get real.
bolded part is semi-bashing, because it's just not true. TLO played in GSL ro64 Opens, Jinro was 2x Code S semifinalist, and while on Liquid Huk got into Code S and became, well, Huk. Ret and Haypro didnt do so well, but i'd say Liquid/oGs partnership that incontrol calls out payed for itself. at a time, they still did better in korea than EG guys who went over there, including idra.
On November 28 2011 19:41 iNcontroL wrote: Everyone and their mother could call out TL for their results and their partnership/house with oGs but they don't because that would be a dumb thing to do in this community.. and yet the #1 community website goes out and calls out their rival while turning the blinders to their own crowd of players who are "carried" by players who churn out less results than the ones who carry EG... wtf.
first bolded part... Sheth and Ret did great in last two MLG's, Huk was bought out, Haypro took out Nestea but ok didnt do so well elsewhere, and Tyler showed signs of life against Choya, while TLO attended MLG Orlando literally injured for christ sake. Hero is as Liquid as Puma is, so im not even gonna count those guys results into this. what did EG guys do? and yes i know that incontrol fucked himself over with good performance at the start of the year and would actually get less shit if he didnt play in Group Stages against best in the world, but what about other EG guys? except Idra, i really dont see how they performed better than TLAF'Liquid guys, when we exclude their koreans. and im not talkin only about MLG, but other tournies, where Liquid guys like Ret and Sheth had great success.
second bolded part... if he think people see EG as Huk and PuMa then that's maybe where he's wrong. same goes for Liquid and Hero, soon Zenio. in that context, paragraph that was posted about EG results can be brought to disucssion. even FXOpen posted something along that lines. i agree with what incontrol is saying about houses and how they should never be questioned, because its not fair (they were the ones to take the risk so why would they get bad rep for doing foreigners a favour in the long run). but, he shouldnt bash Liquid guys in the process...
He was being facetious.
That is to complicated for them. It's easier just to bold section of incontrol's post and act offended.
On November 28 2011 20:17 snailz wrote: its funny how full-time EG player goes on to bash TLAF.Liquid's players just because a member of TL.net community (relatively unimportant and random person) called out his own teammates in an article. i understand your emotions, but two wrongs don't make a right...
On November 28 2011 19:42 iNcontroL wrote:
On November 28 2011 19:40 GLLvz wrote:
On November 28 2011 18:49 iNcontroL wrote: wow
calling out EG house.. ok. Well TL abandoned korea cause their results were even worse there so maybe the investment of TL / oGs was a bad idea as well? A worse idea even...
but that'd be a dumb thing to say.. especially on an official article. We have had the house for 3 months and the results have gotten a helluva lot better but you are going to say it was a waste? get real.
the TL house produced EG's best preforming player and your saying they are doing bad? Jinro 2 times 4th place @ GSL. And bashing TL's team because someone is stateing the obvious, this comming from a offical EG member and not a Random News writer on a community site. pretty low if you ask me!..
nobody is asking you.
stay classy incontrol
Where did incontrol bash liquid guys? And sure it was written by a "relatively unimportant and random person" but the TL staff approved this article and it represents TL as a whole.
ok here goes ---->
On November 28 2011 18:49 iNcontroL wrote: wow
calling out EG house.. ok. Well TL abandoned korea cause their results were even worse there so maybe the investment of TL / oGs was a bad idea as well? A worse idea even...
but that'd be a dumb thing to say.. especially on an official article. We have had the house for 3 months and the results have gotten a helluva lot better but you are going to say it was a waste? get real.
bolded part is semi-bashing, because it's just not true. TLO played in GSL ro64 Opens, Jinro was 2x Code S semifinalist, and while on Liquid Huk got into Code S and became, well, Huk. Ret and Haypro didnt do so well, but i'd say Liquid/oGs partnership that incontrol calls out payed for itself. at a time, they still did better in korea than EG guys who went over there, including idra.
On November 28 2011 19:41 iNcontroL wrote: Everyone and their mother could call out TL for their results and their partnership/house with oGs but they don't because that would be a dumb thing to do in this community.. and yet the #1 community website goes out and calls out their rival while turning the blinders to their own crowd of players who are "carried" by players who churn out less results than the ones who carry EG... wtf.
first bolded part... Sheth and Ret did great in last two MLG's, Huk was bought out, Haypro took out Nestea but ok didnt do so well elsewhere, and Tyler showed signs of life against Choya, while TLO attended MLG Orlando literally injured for christ sake. Hero is as Liquid as Puma is, so im not even gonna count those guys results into this. what did EG guys do? and yes i know that incontrol fucked himself over with good performance at the start of the year and would actually get less shit if he didnt play in Group Stages against best in the world, but what about other EG guys? except Idra, i really dont see how they performed better than TLAF'Liquid guys, when we exclude their koreans. and im not talkin only about MLG, but other tournies, where Liquid guys like Ret and Sheth had great success.
second bolded part... if he think people see EG as Huk and PuMa then that's maybe where he's wrong. same goes for Liquid and Hero, soon Zenio. in that context, paragraph that was posted about EG results can be brought to disucssion. even FXOpen posted something along that lines. i agree with what incontrol is saying about houses and how they should never be questioned, because its not fair (they were the ones to take the risk so why would they get bad rep for doing foreigners a favour in the long run). but, he shouldnt bash Liquid guys in the process...
He was being facetious.
That is to complicated for them. It's easier just to bold section of incontrol's post and act offended.
On November 28 2011 16:39 heyoka wrote: The Decorah Eagles Milgie for best LR thread MLG Dallas was beset by more technical problems than any major SC2 tournament to date (other contenders: Blizzcon 2010 Invitational, NASL Grand Finals Day 1, IPL 3, and the PPSL). Because of the venue's poor internet, MLG was only able to stream a grand total of three matches over the entire Saturday. So what happens when you promise tens of thousands of Starcraft fans the greatest Starcraft of their lives, and then withhold it from them?
This happens, the Day 2 Live Report thread. The broken stream hammered spectators to desperation, and in their desperation, they turned to something they didn't fully understand: eagles. The thread is filled with eagle macros. Pictures of kittens jumping over streams. Fake MLG stream notices. The kind of shenanigans that no TL mod would ever tolerate in any other circumstance. But on that day, everyone had thrown up their hands, and this LR thread is a testament to the wanton abandon that filled the Starcraft void.
Winner: the MLG Dallas Day 2 Live Report Thread
So deserved. Going through it right now while watching GSL, it was the most awesome thing ever. Too bad they started banning after a while, so the article is not entirely true. Everybody was having a good time, so in that regard it was better than every LR thread since with all the flaming and balancewhine and shit. :D
On November 28 2011 20:17 snailz wrote: its funny how full-time EG player goes on to bash TLAF.Liquid's players just because a member of TL.net community (relatively unimportant and random person) called out his own teammates in an article. i understand your emotions, but two wrongs don't make a right...
On November 28 2011 19:42 iNcontroL wrote:
On November 28 2011 19:40 GLLvz wrote:
On November 28 2011 18:49 iNcontroL wrote: wow
calling out EG house.. ok. Well TL abandoned korea cause their results were even worse there so maybe the investment of TL / oGs was a bad idea as well? A worse idea even...
but that'd be a dumb thing to say.. especially on an official article. We have had the house for 3 months and the results have gotten a helluva lot better but you are going to say it was a waste? get real.
the TL house produced EG's best preforming player and your saying they are doing bad? Jinro 2 times 4th place @ GSL. And bashing TL's team because someone is stateing the obvious, this comming from a offical EG member and not a Random News writer on a community site. pretty low if you ask me!..
nobody is asking you.
stay classy incontrol
Where did incontrol bash liquid guys? And sure it was written by a "relatively unimportant and random person" but the TL staff approved this article and it represents TL as a whole.
Mmm, if you scroll down a bit, I thought it says
The opinions expressed by our users do not reflect the official position of TeamLiquid.net or its staff.
?
This wasn't a user. It was a TL writer posted by a TL admin. This is TL staff material, not a user like you or me.
jmbthirteen is absoultely right, TL users =/= TL writers/staff/admins. it isrepresentative of TL.net opinions.
which many people tend to agree with, even though they perhaps think it's still a dick move. so better to get it out in the open, or? i don't think even the writer knew what was better... after GSL expect 100 pages shitstorm from crazy fanboys, tho
Not saying I agree or disagree with confusedcrib in his article, but let's be clear: something written on our front page is an opinion of the writer and not representative of everyone on TL or even everyone on the TL staff. We have a volunteer staff of ~200 people. Even confusedcrib said before he expected to get flamed for it, it's a relatively controversial opinion that obviously isn't some official statement by our entire site. If everyone has read our news lately there's a decent amount of op-ed-ish style opinion segments.
tldr; never take one writers opinion to represent all of TL
On November 28 2011 20:17 snailz wrote: its funny how full-time EG player goes on to bash TLAF.Liquid's players just because a member of TL.net community (relatively unimportant and random person) called out his own teammates in an article. i understand your emotions, but two wrongs don't make a right...
On November 28 2011 19:42 iNcontroL wrote:
On November 28 2011 19:40 GLLvz wrote:
On November 28 2011 18:49 iNcontroL wrote: wow
calling out EG house.. ok. Well TL abandoned korea cause their results were even worse there so maybe the investment of TL / oGs was a bad idea as well? A worse idea even...
but that'd be a dumb thing to say.. especially on an official article. We have had the house for 3 months and the results have gotten a helluva lot better but you are going to say it was a waste? get real.
the TL house produced EG's best preforming player and your saying they are doing bad? Jinro 2 times 4th place @ GSL. And bashing TL's team because someone is stateing the obvious, this comming from a offical EG member and not a Random News writer on a community site. pretty low if you ask me!..
nobody is asking you.
stay classy incontrol
Where did incontrol bash liquid guys? And sure it was written by a "relatively unimportant and random person" but the TL staff approved this article and it represents TL as a whole.
Mmm, if you scroll down a bit, I thought it says
The opinions expressed by our users do not reflect the official position of TeamLiquid.net or its staff.
?
This wasn't a user. It was a TL writer posted by a TL admin. This is TL staff material, not a user like you or me.
jmbthirteen is absoultely right, TL users =/= TL writers/staff/admins. it isrepresentative of TL.net opinions.
which many people tend to agree with, even though they perhaps think it's still a dick move. so better to get it out in the open, or? i don't think even the writer knew what was better... after GSL expect 100 pages shitstorm from crazy fanboys, tho
Not saying I agree or disagree with confusedcrib in his article, but let's be clear: something written on our front page is an opinion of the writer and not representative of everyone on TL or even everyone on the TL staff. We have a volunteer staff of ~200 people. Even confusedcrib said before he expected to get flamed for it, it's a relatively controversial opinion that obviously isn't some official statement by our entire site. If everyone has read our news lately there's a decent amount of op-ed-ish style opinion segments.
completely understood.
perhaps you should add your statement into the OP at the bottom, just to avoid future confusion. i dont think it will help, but it certainly directs flame towards the writer and away from "TL vs EG"
4th place GSL 2 times in the start dosent count? Yes he has fallen off after that but you dont need to say that he havent done anything...
I didn't say he hasn't done anything, but since then have his results been expected out of practicing with oGs for so long? Asking "Should Team Evil Geniuses Have Established a North American Team House?" is the same as asking if Jinro deserves to be practicing there, its absolutely ludicrous. Jinro 100% deserves to be practicing with oGs and is a top foreign contender. Just like there is absolutely no doubt that EG should have formed the house, why NOT form the house.
Jinro is not a good example. Neither is TLO's house in sweden. That wasn't a even a teamhouse, it was just a bunch if friends living and practicing together, completely different from the EG house wich formed for the reason of making the eg members better.
I can't speak for EG but I'm pretty sure the Team House was formed in order to give their players an opportunity to truly become full time players and not live in the esports model of pre 2010. It also creates a central hub for their business as well as media production to occur, along with that, the reason is to give the players the practice environment of a Korean pro-house while still being in the West, where esports has had the explosion, not in Korea. The goal is not to here and now outright make players better, a few walls and a roof can't do that, but it can provide the scenario to get better. After 3-4 months of being in the house can we really say any of those players have gotten worse? Not only are they all streaming now but we, once again, have seen Idra break out of a slump, something a team house hasn't done for other players on other teams with the opportunity to be in a team house. That's just the most obvious example of someone who's gotten better as a result.
Not to mention how can we possibly be judging ALL of these houses based on one event? When you look at a list of the players who went two and out.
Actually im pretty sure it was specifically stated at the time the teamhouse was formed, that it was to make the players better by practicing in a house together. That's also what you were (and is still is) arguing for. I have said all along that it might be other reasons to have a team house, so it's kinda funny you're telling me that.
There just is nothing that indicates that most of the eg players have benefited from the house, and you can't compare it to any other house saying "well look at those guys they haven't benefited from their house either" - because their just isn't any similar house to the EG house. The fact that idra was even in a slump tells us that he was a good player already. Did he break out of the slump because of the EG house? maybe, maybe not. Does ONE PLAYER breaking out of a slump justify having a teamhouse? If you only have it to get more results and no one else is, then i would say "No".
So you are just against teamhouses then right? Not just the EG one. I mean who is to say how good MC could be living outside the oGs house.
ME? No im not against teamhouses. NO im NOT against EG's house. plz read.
There is alot to indicate that the ogs house makes their players better. Not when it comes to EG. Now obv you can never say for sure. Both jinro and huk became very good after living at the ogs house. No eg player has showing noticably better results since moving to the house. Maybe idra.
How has the oGs house indicated it makes their players better than the EG house? How do we know what those players would have done if they lived somewhere else? The same question you ask about the EG players.
No one truly knows. But we do know that players have improved since they moved into the houses. Your argument doesn't really make sense.
My argument? How are you using "my" argument against me by claiming the same thing but it doesn't adhere to your argument???
Im saying that we can't truly know how the teamhouse has affected these players skill level. You are saying the same, so what's the problem?
When we discuss the teamhouses we have to look past that. Ogs house has made alot of players succesful, for example huk and jinro has done great AFTER joining the house. No one on EG has started doing really good after joining the house. See there? See the comparison? Nothing indicates that the EG house is making their players better, you can't say that about the ogs house.
No, I'm not using your argument, I'm applying your argument to a house you said does help when you have no proof that it does to show that its a bad argument. Its way too early to say the EG house isn't producing results and not worth it.
How can you say no one in the EG house started doing well after moving into the house? Idra started winning, DeMuslim has been doing great. Axslav and Machine have both improved their play, posting better results than before too.
Sure, nothing indicates they are doing better if you ignore their improvements.
I know you think you weren't using it but you were. You said yourself "No one truly knows". Yeah, thank you for pointing out how bad my "argument" was then using it yourself.
Notice how i put my "argument" in quotation marks? Yeah it's because that is NOT my argument. Haha jesus..... That's a "I might be wrong and there is no way to know it" thing.
Stop trying to randomly twist shit i say and make a point out of it. Just as you did with the "so you're against teamhouses herp derp". Then just hop on to something else when you are proven wrong.
Ogs has produced a shitload of great players. EG house hasn't. That is my argument, and you can't argue how much better huk and jinro got after practicing there. Huk, puma and idra was good before practicing at the EG house. Demulsim was injured and he isn't anymore that's why he has gotten better. Machine and Axslav has always been solid players, can't say they've been doing any better lately.
It is true that it's hard to judge after this short time. Still that's what we're doing (yes even you are, but you wouldn't contradict yourself would you?). I can't see into the future, sorry, i can only look at their performance so far.
I think the EG bit just does not belong into this article? It would belong in to an article that talks about the team and how they did at the end of the year or after a big league finished. It just feels out of place here?
On November 28 2011 16:39 heyoka wrote: The Decorah Eagles Milgie for best LR thread MLG Dallas was beset by more technical problems than any major SC2 tournament to date (other contenders: Blizzcon 2010 Invitational, NASL Grand Finals Day 1, IPL 3, and the PPSL). Because of the venue's poor internet, MLG was only able to stream a grand total of three matches over the entire Saturday. So what happens when you promise tens of thousands of Starcraft fans the greatest Starcraft of their lives, and then withhold it from them?
This happens, the Day 2 Live Report thread. The broken stream hammered spectators to desperation, and in their desperation, they turned to something they didn't fully understand: eagles. The thread is filled with eagle macros. Pictures of kittens jumping over streams. Fake MLG stream notices. The kind of shenanigans that no TL mod would ever tolerate in any other circumstance. But on that day, everyone had thrown up their hands, and this LR thread is a testament to the wanton abandon that filled the Starcraft void.
Winner: the MLG Dallas Day 2 Live Report Thread
So deserved. Going through it right now while watching GSL, it was the most awesome thing ever. Too bad they started banning after a while, so the article is not entirely true. Everybody was having a good time, so in that regard it was better than every LR thread since with all the flaming and balancewhine and shit. :D
Although I understand the general point of "non-team house" players, saying losing to Violet is pathetic in one paragraph and then saying Violet is one of best players in the tournament and it is amazing to win against him 2 paragraphs later is a bit hypocritical. Although I agree that EG isn't showing AMAZING results, no other team is showing better results based from training. What I mean is, for example, Vile had 2 great performers, but they were comparable to Huk and Idra of their respectable team.
I hope the EG teams does post some better results and helps justify other foreign teams to establish team houses. In order for that to happen, better results would be advisable. I just want us to be a bit more objective in judging them as I do feel overall they had the best team performance.
Well - I do agree with it not being very smart/polite to put the EG-house part in the article - It dosn't really fit into the context of the article, it just seems that Heyoka threw it in there for no apparent reason - Given the position Teamliquid has relative to EG, I think it's a bad move.
However, I do actually agree with what Heyoka is saying - I had hoped this house would greatly improve the EG-players, but so far it hasn't really been the case.. In fact, it can seem like they are actually falling behind apart from idrA who's been up and down, after definitely being ~top-5 in the world when he joined the team back in 2010. HuK & Puma hasnt spent much more than a week total there, afaik so its abit hard to point at them for the performance boost.
With the EG-SlayerS partnership up, and Puma idrA, DeMuslim and HuK going over there, I'm having a hard time seeing the justification for it I hope that EG has a plan for NA Starcraft, and not just going for the Koreans now after that they have invested in the SlayerS-partnership.. However, if you look at ROI, it is probably better business for them to expand and increase the support for their roster in Korea, than running the EG-house in NA and thats what worries me.
I obviously can't speak for Heyoka, but the reason why im mentioning this is not because Im a diehard Liquid fan and I want to smacktalk EG; It's because I genuinely am a fan of what they did with the house and I really want it to succeed so that every team wants to have an EG-house and right now, I'm just not seeing it
Just throwing it in there that it might not be TL vs. EG that motivated Heyoka to mention it..
Edit: Just saw that it was confusedcrib who wrote the segment and not Heyoka, my mistake
On November 28 2011 21:17 ELA wrote: Well - I do agree with it not being very smart/polite to put the EG-house part in the article - It dosn't really fit into the context of the article, it just seems that Heyoka threw it in there for no apparent reason - Given the position Teamliquid has relative to EG, I think it's a bad move.
However, I do actually agree with what Heyoka is saying - I had hoped this house would greatly improve the EG-players, but so far it hasn't really been the case.. In fact, it can seem like they are actually falling behind apart from idrA who's been up and down, after definitely being ~top-5 in the world when he joined the team back in 2010. HuK & Puma hasnt spent much more than a week total there, afaik so its abit hard to point at them for the performance boost.
With the EG-SlayerS partnership up, and Puma idrA, DeMuslim and HuK going over there, I'm having a hard time seeing the justification for it I hope that EG has a plan for NA Starcraft, and not just going for the Koreans now after that they have invested in the SlayerS-partnership.. However, if you look at ROI, it is probably better business for them to expand and increase the support for their roster in Korea, than running the EG-house in NA and thats what worries me.
I obviously can't speak for Heyoka, but the reason why im mentioning this is not because Im a diehard Liquid fan and I want to smacktalk EG; It's because I genuinely am a fan of what they did with the house and I really want it to succeed so that every team wants to have an EG-house and right now, I'm just not seeing it
Just throwing it in there that it might not be TL vs. EG that motivated Heyoka to mention it..
heyoka is article editor, the writer in question is actually confusedcrib
but it doesnt really change your post argument so it doesnt matter :D
I didn't say he hasn't done anything, but since then have his results been expected out of practicing with oGs for so long? Asking "Should Team Evil Geniuses Have Established a North American Team House?" is the same as asking if Jinro deserves to be practicing there, its absolutely ludicrous. Jinro 100% deserves to be practicing with oGs and is a top foreign contender. Just like there is absolutely no doubt that EG should have formed the house, why NOT form the house.
Jinro is not a good example. Neither is TLO's house in sweden. That wasn't a even a teamhouse, it was just a bunch if friends living and practicing together, completely different from the EG house wich formed for the reason of making the eg members better.
I can't speak for EG but I'm pretty sure the Team House was formed in order to give their players an opportunity to truly become full time players and not live in the esports model of pre 2010. It also creates a central hub for their business as well as media production to occur, along with that, the reason is to give the players the practice environment of a Korean pro-house while still being in the West, where esports has had the explosion, not in Korea. The goal is not to here and now outright make players better, a few walls and a roof can't do that, but it can provide the scenario to get better. After 3-4 months of being in the house can we really say any of those players have gotten worse? Not only are they all streaming now but we, once again, have seen Idra break out of a slump, something a team house hasn't done for other players on other teams with the opportunity to be in a team house. That's just the most obvious example of someone who's gotten better as a result.
Not to mention how can we possibly be judging ALL of these houses based on one event? When you look at a list of the players who went two and out.
Actually im pretty sure it was specifically stated at the time the teamhouse was formed, that it was to make the players better by practicing in a house together. That's also what you were (and is still is) arguing for. I have said all along that it might be other reasons to have a team house, so it's kinda funny you're telling me that.
There just is nothing that indicates that most of the eg players have benefited from the house, and you can't compare it to any other house saying "well look at those guys they haven't benefited from their house either" - because their just isn't any similar house to the EG house. The fact that idra was even in a slump tells us that he was a good player already. Did he break out of the slump because of the EG house? maybe, maybe not. Does ONE PLAYER breaking out of a slump justify having a teamhouse? If you only have it to get more results and no one else is, then i would say "No".
So you are just against teamhouses then right? Not just the EG one. I mean who is to say how good MC could be living outside the oGs house.
ME? No im not against teamhouses. NO im NOT against EG's house. plz read.
There is alot to indicate that the ogs house makes their players better. Not when it comes to EG. Now obv you can never say for sure. Both jinro and huk became very good after living at the ogs house. No eg player has showing noticably better results since moving to the house. Maybe idra.
How has the oGs house indicated it makes their players better than the EG house? How do we know what those players would have done if they lived somewhere else? The same question you ask about the EG players.
No one truly knows. But we do know that players have improved since they moved into the houses. Your argument doesn't really make sense.
My argument? How are you using "my" argument against me by claiming the same thing but it doesn't adhere to your argument???
Im saying that we can't truly know how the teamhouse has affected these players skill level. You are saying the same, so what's the problem?
When we discuss the teamhouses we have to look past that. Ogs house has made alot of players succesful, for example huk and jinro has done great AFTER joining the house. No one on EG has started doing really good after joining the house. See there? See the comparison? Nothing indicates that the EG house is making their players better, you can't say that about the ogs house.
No, I'm not using your argument, I'm applying your argument to a house you said does help when you have no proof that it does to show that its a bad argument. Its way too early to say the EG house isn't producing results and not worth it.
How can you say no one in the EG house started doing well after moving into the house? Idra started winning, DeMuslim has been doing great. Axslav and Machine have both improved their play, posting better results than before too.
Sure, nothing indicates they are doing better if you ignore their improvements.
I know you think you weren't using it but you were. You said yourself "No one truly knows". Yeah, thank you for pointing out how bad my "argument" was then using it yourself.
Notice how i put my "argument" in quotation marks? Yeah it's because that is NOT my argument. Haha jesus..... That's a "I might be wrong and there is no way to know it" thing.
Stop trying to randomly twist shit i say and make a point out of it. Just as you did with the "so you're against teamhouses herp derp". Then just hop on to something else when you are proven wrong.
Ogs has produced a shitload of great players. EG house hasn't. That is my argument, and you can't argue how much better huk and jinro got after practicing there. Huk, puma and idra was good before practicing at the EG house. Demulsim was injured and he isn't anymore that's why he has gotten better. Machine and Axslav has always been solid players, can't say they've been doing any better lately.
It is true that it's hard to judge after this short time. Still that's what we're doing (yes even you are, but you wouldn't contradict yourself would you?). I can't see into the future, sorry, i can only look at their performance so far.
You are ignoring the improvements EG is making. Why are you even talking about Huk and Puma when they aren't in the house? Idra is WAY better now. His ZvT is world class right now. Thats remarkable for a player not training in Korea. Yes he was good before, but it was also very early on in the game. The skill level of sc2 has risen, and while in the EG house, Idra has taken his near the top, somewhere he was falling from before the team house.
Its too early to say this house is a failure. Is it a massive success? No, but it is working. You continue to ignore that these players are improving while living in the house. Your whole argument is twisting shit, going on what ifs whether you think so or not.
And of course oGs has produce a ton of great players, their talent pool is way larger than EGs. Its a lot fucking easier to find great sc2 players in South Korea than the United States.
Should Team Evil Geniuses Have Established a North American Team House?
I'll be honest guys, I'm really afraid of getting flamed for this, but it's something that's concerned me for long enough that I'm just going to say it. EG did badly, and I can't help but feel that the team house is not paying for itself. Of course when you go to EG's coverage of the event, they point to having "solid results overall," but in reality, it's only ever their golden three that do well. Thanks to Idra, Huk, and Puma, EG always manages good PR, but the results of their other players are starting to get down right disturbing: iNcontroL lost to State and Strifecro, StrifeCro lost to syckness and RuFF13, Lzgamer lost to Catz and exMaSter. Only Machine and Axslav's results are remotely explainable, with losses to Nestea, dde, Gatored, and Violet. Even with those two players though, losses to Gatored and dde when you live in a team house are hard to justify.
I don't think this is very fair. Discounting the three best players on any team and the remaining players won't have good results, and judging by MLG Providence, only Complexity did better than EG.
To be honest, if they want to justify having a team house, they need to work out a better system. While Puma and Idra seem to be practicing correctly, I can't shake the feeling that they would do well regardless of where they were living. EG needs to figure out what those two are doing right, and have everyone try to emulate it to avoid poor results. Having a team house in North America established a wonderful precedent, now they just need the results to match.
You have to remember it took HuK 4-5 months of hard practice in Korea at oGs to produce his first positive results, and it's been less time for EG thus far, and not even in Korea and not coupled with oGs. Also, I don't think Idra would be as good practicing by himself, and neither would Puma. Idra only started to break through after living in the team house, and Puma never was alone by himself (moving from TSL to EG) so how would you get the impression he'd be fine alone?
If you're going to call them out, it should probably be about moving Idra and Puma (their best two team-house players) away from the others who need the environment just as much if not more. But even that decision by their management is defensible.
But doing it now in an MLG article does feel out of place here, as even if it's an issue that is worth bringing up, it's probably best done outside the context of a specific MLG where EG didn't even perform poorly.
On November 28 2011 20:17 snailz wrote: its funny how full-time EG player goes on to bash TLAF.Liquid's players just because a member of TL.net community (relatively unimportant and random person) called out his own teammates in an article. i understand your emotions, but two wrongs don't make a right...
On November 28 2011 19:42 iNcontroL wrote:
On November 28 2011 19:40 GLLvz wrote:
On November 28 2011 18:49 iNcontroL wrote: wow
calling out EG house.. ok. Well TL abandoned korea cause their results were even worse there so maybe the investment of TL / oGs was a bad idea as well? A worse idea even...
but that'd be a dumb thing to say.. especially on an official article. We have had the house for 3 months and the results have gotten a helluva lot better but you are going to say it was a waste? get real.
the TL house produced EG's best preforming player and your saying they are doing bad? Jinro 2 times 4th place @ GSL. And bashing TL's team because someone is stateing the obvious, this comming from a offical EG member and not a Random News writer on a community site. pretty low if you ask me!..
nobody is asking you.
stay classy incontrol
Where did incontrol bash liquid guys? And sure it was written by a "relatively unimportant and random person" but the TL staff approved this article and it represents TL as a whole.
Mmm, if you scroll down a bit, I thought it says
The opinions expressed by our users do not reflect the official position of TeamLiquid.net or its staff.
?
This wasn't a user. It was a TL writer posted by a TL admin. This is TL staff material, not a user like you or me.
jmbthirteen is absoultely right, TL users =/= TL writers/staff/admins. it isrepresentative of TL.net opinions.
which many people tend to agree with, even though they perhaps think it's still a dick move. so better to get it out in the open, or? i don't think even the writer knew what was better... after GSL expect 100 pages shitstorm from crazy fanboys, tho
Not saying I agree or disagree with confusedcrib in his article, but let's be clear: something written on our front page is an opinion of the writer and not representative of everyone on TL or even everyone on the TL staff. We have a volunteer staff of ~200 people. Even confusedcrib said before he expected to get flamed for it, it's a relatively controversial opinion that obviously isn't some official statement by our entire site. If everyone has read our news lately there's a decent amount of op-ed-ish style opinion segments.
tldr; never take one writers opinion to represent all of TL
Does not compute.
What you're saying is that there is no accountability for TL staff writers, and yet they get their content into featured, front page articles? Shouldn't there be some sort of editor who puts together the order and format of the fancy graphic-laden post that double checks the content of the writers to make sure nothing is too 'off the wall'? The explanation you gave seems like a cop out to me.
On November 28 2011 20:17 snailz wrote: its funny how full-time EG player goes on to bash TLAF.Liquid's players just because a member of TL.net community (relatively unimportant and random person) called out his own teammates in an article. i understand your emotions, but two wrongs don't make a right...
On November 28 2011 19:42 iNcontroL wrote:
On November 28 2011 19:40 GLLvz wrote:
On November 28 2011 18:49 iNcontroL wrote: wow
calling out EG house.. ok. Well TL abandoned korea cause their results were even worse there so maybe the investment of TL / oGs was a bad idea as well? A worse idea even...
but that'd be a dumb thing to say.. especially on an official article. We have had the house for 3 months and the results have gotten a helluva lot better but you are going to say it was a waste? get real.
the TL house produced EG's best preforming player and your saying they are doing bad? Jinro 2 times 4th place @ GSL. And bashing TL's team because someone is stateing the obvious, this comming from a offical EG member and not a Random News writer on a community site. pretty low if you ask me!..
nobody is asking you.
stay classy incontrol
Where did incontrol bash liquid guys? And sure it was written by a "relatively unimportant and random person" but the TL staff approved this article and it represents TL as a whole.
Mmm, if you scroll down a bit, I thought it says
The opinions expressed by our users do not reflect the official position of TeamLiquid.net or its staff.
?
This wasn't a user. It was a TL writer posted by a TL admin. This is TL staff material, not a user like you or me.
jmbthirteen is absoultely right, TL users =/= TL writers/staff/admins. it isrepresentative of TL.net opinions.
which many people tend to agree with, even though they perhaps think it's still a dick move. so better to get it out in the open, or? i don't think even the writer knew what was better... after GSL expect 100 pages shitstorm from crazy fanboys, tho
Not saying I agree or disagree with confusedcrib in his article, but let's be clear: something written on our front page is an opinion of the writer and not representative of everyone on TL or even everyone on the TL staff. We have a volunteer staff of ~200 people. Even confusedcrib said before he expected to get flamed for it, it's a relatively controversial opinion that obviously isn't some official statement by our entire site. If everyone has read our news lately there's a decent amount of op-ed-ish style opinion segments.
tldr; never take one writers opinion to represent all of TL
I get what you are saying Hotbid, but when you have an article on the front page of your website, especially one written by a staff member, TL has a certain level of accountability on it. You guys had to approve of his article, the editor allowed it to be published. If a journalist at the new york times writes something that isn't true, the NYT has to pay for it even though it was just one person who wrote it.
Should Team Evil Geniuses Have Established a North American Team House?
I'll be honest guys, I'm really afraid of getting flamed for this, but it's something that's concerned me for long enough that I'm just going to say it. EG did badly, and I can't help but feel that the team house is not paying for itself. Of course when you go to EG's coverage of the event, they point to having "solid results overall," but in reality, it's only ever their golden three that do well. Thanks to Idra, Huk, and Puma, EG always manages good PR, but the results of their other players are starting to get down right disturbing: iNcontroL lost to State and Strifecro, StrifeCro lost to syckness and RuFF13, Lzgamer lost to Catz and exMaSter. Only Machine and Axslav's results are remotely explainable, with losses to Nestea, dde, Gatored, and Violet. Even with those two players though, losses to Gatored and dde when you live in a team house are hard to justify.
I don't think this is very fair. Discounting the three best players on any team and the remaining players won't have good results, and judging by MLG Providence, only Complexity did better than EG.
To be honest, if they want to justify having a team house, they need to work out a better system. While Puma and Idra seem to be practicing correctly, I can't shake the feeling that they would do well regardless of where they were living. EG needs to figure out what those two are doing right, and have everyone try to emulate it to avoid poor results. Having a team house in North America established a wonderful precedent, now they just need the results to match.
You have to remember it took HuK 4-5 months of hard practice in Korea at oGs to produce his first positive results, and it's been less time for EG thus far, and not even in Korea and not coupled with oGs. Also, I don't think Idra would be as good practicing by himself, and neither would Puma. Idra only started to break through after living in the team house, and Puma never was alone by himself (moving from TSL to EG) so how would you get the impression he'd be fine alone?
If you're going to call them out, it should probably be about moving Idra and Puma (their best two team-house players) away from the others who need the environment just as much if not more. But even that decision by their management is defensible.
But doing it now in an MLG article does feel out of place here, as even if it's an issue that is worth bringing up, it's probably best done outside the context of a specific MLG where EG didn't even perform poorly.
I'm not going to defend EG or anything else because I'm a TL fan and, as a TL fan, I consider EG being the darkness, but Tyler himself said you need at least 6 months of full time practice to see the result. Their pro house will not leave result until some time, they need to get accustomed to the environment, build good practice shedule, respect them and then you got to leave some time until results actually emerge. So the part about the EG house is actually unfair.
Edit : Hot_Bid's post explain everything like a boss.
On November 28 2011 21:04 Hot_Bid wrote: Not saying I agree or disagree with confusedcrib in his article, but let's be clear: something written on our front page is an opinion of the writer and not representative of everyone on TL or even everyone on the TL staff. We have a volunteer staff of ~200 people. Even confusedcrib said before he expected to get flamed for it, it's a relatively controversial opinion that obviously isn't some official statement by our entire site. If everyone has read our news lately there's a decent amount of op-ed-ish style opinion segments.
tldr; never take one writers opinion to represent all of TL
Does not compute.
What you're saying is that there is no accountability for TL staff writers, and yet they get their content into featured, front page articles? Shouldn't there be some sort of editor who puts together the order and format of the fancy graphic-laden post that double checks the content of the writers to make sure nothing is too 'off the wall'? The explanation you gave seems like a cop out to me.
I did not say there is no accountability. I am saying someone can write something (in this case the EG part) that other writers or staff members disagree with.
On November 28 2011 21:25 jmbthirteen wrote: I get what you are saying Hotbid, but when you have an article on the front page of your website, especially one written by a staff member, TL has a certain level of accountability on it. You guys had to approve of his article, the editor allowed it to be published. If a journalist at the new york times writes something that isn't true, the NYT has to pay for it even though it was just one person who wrote it.
I agree that when there is a blatant misrepresentation of facts then yes, we would take accountability for that. However, I am simply saying I don't think everyone on TL staff has to agree with everything posted in news. We can disagree (I posted why I disagreed above).
If you want to compare, I see it more like ESPN writers disagreeing with each other, which happens all the time, rather than some sort of blatant lie that we have to retract or take accountability for. The outrage about "TL saying X or Y" really shouldn't exist because I am certain not everyone agrees with a particular opinion.
I think a certain amount of outrage is directed at "TL in general" because we are very clear about aiming to post news as an unbiased source. It's extremely difficult to post news that is negative about other teams (especially EG) and in the future we should be very careful about it. I do not think this is a fair thing to do, to label TL entirely as biased because of the opinion of one writer. I'd say there's a good number of staff that would argue against what confusedcrib said in this article, and that's fine.
On November 28 2011 19:46 skyrunner wrote: [quote]
Jinro is not a good example. Neither is TLO's house in sweden. That wasn't a even a teamhouse, it was just a bunch if friends living and practicing together, completely different from the EG house wich formed for the reason of making the eg members better.
I can't speak for EG but I'm pretty sure the Team House was formed in order to give their players an opportunity to truly become full time players and not live in the esports model of pre 2010. It also creates a central hub for their business as well as media production to occur, along with that, the reason is to give the players the practice environment of a Korean pro-house while still being in the West, where esports has had the explosion, not in Korea. The goal is not to here and now outright make players better, a few walls and a roof can't do that, but it can provide the scenario to get better. After 3-4 months of being in the house can we really say any of those players have gotten worse? Not only are they all streaming now but we, once again, have seen Idra break out of a slump, something a team house hasn't done for other players on other teams with the opportunity to be in a team house. That's just the most obvious example of someone who's gotten better as a result.
Not to mention how can we possibly be judging ALL of these houses based on one event? When you look at a list of the players who went two and out.
Actually im pretty sure it was specifically stated at the time the teamhouse was formed, that it was to make the players better by practicing in a house together. That's also what you were (and is still is) arguing for. I have said all along that it might be other reasons to have a team house, so it's kinda funny you're telling me that.
There just is nothing that indicates that most of the eg players have benefited from the house, and you can't compare it to any other house saying "well look at those guys they haven't benefited from their house either" - because their just isn't any similar house to the EG house. The fact that idra was even in a slump tells us that he was a good player already. Did he break out of the slump because of the EG house? maybe, maybe not. Does ONE PLAYER breaking out of a slump justify having a teamhouse? If you only have it to get more results and no one else is, then i would say "No".
So you are just against teamhouses then right? Not just the EG one. I mean who is to say how good MC could be living outside the oGs house.
ME? No im not against teamhouses. NO im NOT against EG's house. plz read.
There is alot to indicate that the ogs house makes their players better. Not when it comes to EG. Now obv you can never say for sure. Both jinro and huk became very good after living at the ogs house. No eg player has showing noticably better results since moving to the house. Maybe idra.
How has the oGs house indicated it makes their players better than the EG house? How do we know what those players would have done if they lived somewhere else? The same question you ask about the EG players.
No one truly knows. But we do know that players have improved since they moved into the houses. Your argument doesn't really make sense.
My argument? How are you using "my" argument against me by claiming the same thing but it doesn't adhere to your argument???
Im saying that we can't truly know how the teamhouse has affected these players skill level. You are saying the same, so what's the problem?
When we discuss the teamhouses we have to look past that. Ogs house has made alot of players succesful, for example huk and jinro has done great AFTER joining the house. No one on EG has started doing really good after joining the house. See there? See the comparison? Nothing indicates that the EG house is making their players better, you can't say that about the ogs house.
No, I'm not using your argument, I'm applying your argument to a house you said does help when you have no proof that it does to show that its a bad argument. Its way too early to say the EG house isn't producing results and not worth it.
How can you say no one in the EG house started doing well after moving into the house? Idra started winning, DeMuslim has been doing great. Axslav and Machine have both improved their play, posting better results than before too.
Sure, nothing indicates they are doing better if you ignore their improvements.
I know you think you weren't using it but you were. You said yourself "No one truly knows". Yeah, thank you for pointing out how bad my "argument" was then using it yourself.
Notice how i put my "argument" in quotation marks? Yeah it's because that is NOT my argument. Haha jesus..... That's a "I might be wrong and there is no way to know it" thing.
Stop trying to randomly twist shit i say and make a point out of it. Just as you did with the "so you're against teamhouses herp derp". Then just hop on to something else when you are proven wrong.
Ogs has produced a shitload of great players. EG house hasn't. That is my argument, and you can't argue how much better huk and jinro got after practicing there. Huk, puma and idra was good before practicing at the EG house. Demulsim was injured and he isn't anymore that's why he has gotten better. Machine and Axslav has always been solid players, can't say they've been doing any better lately.
It is true that it's hard to judge after this short time. Still that's what we're doing (yes even you are, but you wouldn't contradict yourself would you?). I can't see into the future, sorry, i can only look at their performance so far.
You are ignoring the improvements EG is making. Why are you even talking about Huk and Puma when they aren't in the house? Idra is WAY better now. His ZvT is world class right now. Thats remarkable for a player not training in Korea. Yes he was good before, but it was also very early on in the game. The skill level of sc2 has risen, and while in the EG house, Idra has taken his near the top, somewhere he was falling from before the team house.
Its too early to say this house is a failure. Is it a massive success? No, but it is working. You continue to ignore that these players are improving while living in the house. Your whole argument is twisting shit, going on what ifs whether you think so or not.
And of course oGs has produce a ton of great players, their talent pool is way larger than EGs. Its a lot fucking easier to find great sc2 players in South Korea than the United States.
My gawd you really don't read what i say and you ignore completely ignore what's been discussed so far. Yes you twist my words. First with "so you're against teamhouses?" when i stated several times in this thread that i was for it. Second time with the whole "there is no way to say how they would have done w/o the teamhouse", wich was actually a counter argument to myself.
I agree that it's to early to say wether or not it's a failure, so please tell me where i said it's a failure? Yeah i didn't, twisting my words again. Zlasher and Incontrol compared ogs-tl house with the EG house. Huk and jinro improved ALOT after getting to the ogs house, no EG player has. The ogs house has been there for along time, EG house is rather new. You can't really compare them, yet inc and zlasher did. So if we were to compare them, i'd say ogs house has done better for the tl players than the eg house has for their players so far. Now there is no way to know for sure if jinro would have done as good just by laddering by himself, but i think not. You understand that?
And why do i talk about puma and huk? So that people won't bring them into this argument. As the guy you just quoted and agreed with did lol
On November 28 2011 20:17 snailz wrote: its funny how full-time EG player goes on to bash TLAF.Liquid's players just because a member of TL.net community (relatively unimportant and random person) called out his own teammates in an article. i understand your emotions, but two wrongs don't make a right...
On November 28 2011 19:42 iNcontroL wrote:
On November 28 2011 19:40 GLLvz wrote:
On November 28 2011 18:49 iNcontroL wrote: wow
calling out EG house.. ok. Well TL abandoned korea cause their results were even worse there so maybe the investment of TL / oGs was a bad idea as well? A worse idea even...
but that'd be a dumb thing to say.. especially on an official article. We have had the house for 3 months and the results have gotten a helluva lot better but you are going to say it was a waste? get real.
the TL house produced EG's best preforming player and your saying they are doing bad? Jinro 2 times 4th place @ GSL. And bashing TL's team because someone is stateing the obvious, this comming from a offical EG member and not a Random News writer on a community site. pretty low if you ask me!..
nobody is asking you.
stay classy incontrol
Where did incontrol bash liquid guys? And sure it was written by a "relatively unimportant and random person" but the TL staff approved this article and it represents TL as a whole.
Mmm, if you scroll down a bit, I thought it says
The opinions expressed by our users do not reflect the official position of TeamLiquid.net or its staff.
?
This wasn't a user. It was a TL writer posted by a TL admin. This is TL staff material, not a user like you or me.
jmbthirteen is absoultely right, TL users =/= TL writers/staff/admins. it isrepresentative of TL.net opinions.
which many people tend to agree with, even though they perhaps think it's still a dick move. so better to get it out in the open, or? i don't think even the writer knew what was better... after GSL expect 100 pages shitstorm from crazy fanboys, tho
Not saying I agree or disagree with confusedcrib in his article, but let's be clear: something written on our front page is an opinion of the writer and not representative of everyone on TL or even everyone on the TL staff. We have a volunteer staff of ~200 people. Even confusedcrib said before he expected to get flamed for it, it's a relatively controversial opinion that obviously isn't some official statement by our entire site. If everyone has read our news lately there's a decent amount of op-ed-ish style opinion segments.
tldr; never take one writers opinion to represent all of TL
I get what you are saying Hotbid, but when you have an article on the front page of your website, especially one written by a staff member, TL has a certain level of accountability on it. You guys had to approve of his article, the editor allowed it to be published. If a journalist at the new york times writes something that isn't true, the NYT has to pay for it even though it was just one person who wrote it.
Every article on this site, since its beginning, has been made by users of the site.. The reason that these people writing these articles now have 'red icons' is because they have been writing content for the site for a long time.. Alot of articles through the years have sparked fierce debate in the community - The latest example of this probably being "The Elephant in the Room"-article. Now - I don't believe anyone in those some 3000 replies that this article had, was trying to say that it wasn't okay for Teamliquid to 'have this opinion' (Read the article btw) on Starcraft 2 as an E-sports.. So many people were pissed off that it almost came down to blows (In writing ofc)
What you are trying to say is, that Teamliquid.net writers cannot have an oppinion? Wow dude, you are describing a pretty fucking terrible and boring world.. Again, I agree that this made no sense in the context of the article, but if it had been a seperate article about it, I would be cool with it
On November 28 2011 21:04 Hot_Bid wrote: Not saying I agree or disagree with confusedcrib in his article, but let's be clear: something written on our front page is an opinion of the writer and not representative of everyone on TL or even everyone on the TL staff. We have a volunteer staff of ~200 people. Even confusedcrib said before he expected to get flamed for it, it's a relatively controversial opinion that obviously isn't some official statement by our entire site. If everyone has read our news lately there's a decent amount of op-ed-ish style opinion segments.
tldr; never take one writers opinion to represent all of TL
Does not compute.
What you're saying is that there is no accountability for TL staff writers, and yet they get their content into featured, front page articles? Shouldn't there be some sort of editor who puts together the order and format of the fancy graphic-laden post that double checks the content of the writers to make sure nothing is too 'off the wall'? The explanation you gave seems like a cop out to me.
I did not say there is no accountability. I am saying someone can write something (in this case the EG part) that other writers or staff members disagree with.
On November 28 2011 21:25 jmbthirteen wrote: I get what you are saying Hotbid, but when you have an article on the front page of your website, especially one written by a staff member, TL has a certain level of accountability on it. You guys had to approve of his article, the editor allowed it to be published. If a journalist at the new york times writes something that isn't true, the NYT has to pay for it even though it was just one person who wrote it.
I agree that when there is a blatant misrepresentation of facts then yes, we would take accountability for that. However, I am simply saying I don't think everyone on TL staff has to agree with everything posted in news. We can disagree (I posted why I disagreed above).
If you want to compare, I see it more like ESPN writers disagreeing with each other, which happens all the time, rather than some sort of blatant lie that we have to retract or take accountability for. The outrage about "TL saying X or Y" really shouldn't exist because I am certain not everyone agrees with a particular opinion.
I think a certain amount of outrage is directed at "TL in general" because we are very clear about aiming to post news as an unbiased source. It's extremely difficult to post news that is negative about other teams (especially EG) and in the future we should be very careful about it. I do not think this is a fair thing to do, to label TL entirely as biased because of the opinion of one writer. I'd say there's a good number of staff that would argue against what confusedcrib said in this article, and that's fine.
And I think most people realize not everyone at TL shares the writers opinion, but it is something TL needs to be prepared to defend or handle however they feel appropriate. Kutaku and Destructoid also got slammed by many because of their articles earlier this year, even though it was just one person who wrote each article. Also its one thing about posting negative news and a negative opinion of other teams which happened here.
I don't think TL hates EG or anything like that. I think thats kinda why incontrol was tiffed at this. It came outta left field and just created unnecessary drama. Like you said, it really doesn't fit in here.
The pickle is that not only is TL a community site, it is a team as well. So when ESPN calls out the some team, that bias isn't there like TL has because of its team. Its a very difficult situation. Its one I have thought about quite a bit, how TL falls into this "esports journalism" thing. TL is the biggest site to get the sc2 news, but its not a true news site as its community driven. Its a very difficult thing to handle.
oh come on people. perhaps the guy should have been more gentle in his word choice, but he was stating an opinion that really isn't a big deal. Even ESPN gives teams flak for doing stupid shit, they even have a very prominent segment on idiotic blunders by players. The fact is that people have opinions and we shouldn't get riled up because of it. instead EG should use this as motivation and TL should keep on trucking.
i STRONGLY disagree with the "bambino" award going to Naniwa.
The opponents were MUCH weaker as MLG SCII was just getting off the ground, 4gates were still very powerful, and there were little to no koreans. Naniwa pretty much won for having the best 4 gate that weekend.
This is completely different compared to Leenock's impressive domination of the best players in the world. Who WASN'T there? Clide maybe? Polt? I don't remember. The series against DRG alone was out of this world.
On November 28 2011 20:17 snailz wrote: its funny how full-time EG player goes on to bash TLAF.Liquid's players just because a member of TL.net community (relatively unimportant and random person) called out his own teammates in an article. i understand your emotions, but two wrongs don't make a right...
On November 28 2011 19:42 iNcontroL wrote:
On November 28 2011 19:40 GLLvz wrote: [quote]
the TL house produced EG's best preforming player and your saying they are doing bad? Jinro 2 times 4th place @ GSL. And bashing TL's team because someone is stateing the obvious, this comming from a offical EG member and not a Random News writer on a community site. pretty low if you ask me!..
nobody is asking you.
stay classy incontrol
Where did incontrol bash liquid guys? And sure it was written by a "relatively unimportant and random person" but the TL staff approved this article and it represents TL as a whole.
Mmm, if you scroll down a bit, I thought it says
The opinions expressed by our users do not reflect the official position of TeamLiquid.net or its staff.
?
This wasn't a user. It was a TL writer posted by a TL admin. This is TL staff material, not a user like you or me.
jmbthirteen is absoultely right, TL users =/= TL writers/staff/admins. it isrepresentative of TL.net opinions.
which many people tend to agree with, even though they perhaps think it's still a dick move. so better to get it out in the open, or? i don't think even the writer knew what was better... after GSL expect 100 pages shitstorm from crazy fanboys, tho
Not saying I agree or disagree with confusedcrib in his article, but let's be clear: something written on our front page is an opinion of the writer and not representative of everyone on TL or even everyone on the TL staff. We have a volunteer staff of ~200 people. Even confusedcrib said before he expected to get flamed for it, it's a relatively controversial opinion that obviously isn't some official statement by our entire site. If everyone has read our news lately there's a decent amount of op-ed-ish style opinion segments.
tldr; never take one writers opinion to represent all of TL
I get what you are saying Hotbid, but when you have an article on the front page of your website, especially one written by a staff member, TL has a certain level of accountability on it. You guys had to approve of his article, the editor allowed it to be published. If a journalist at the new york times writes something that isn't true, the NYT has to pay for it even though it was just one person who wrote it.
Every article on this site, since its beginning, has been made by users of the site.. The reason that these people writing these articles now have 'red icons' is because they have been writing content for the site for a long time.. Alot of articles through the years have sparked fierce debate in the community - The latest example of this probably being "The Elephant in the Room"-article. Now - I don't believe anyone in those some 3000 replies that this article had, was trying to say that it wasn't okay for Teamliquid to 'have this opinion' (Read the article btw) on Starcraft 2 as an E-sports.. So many people were pissed off that it almost came down to blows (In writing ofc)
What you are trying to say is, that Teamliquid.net writers cannot have an oppinion? Wow dude, you are describing a pretty fucking terrible and boring world.. Again, I agree that this made no sense in the context of the article, but if it had been a seperate article about it, I would be cool with it
No, that's not what I'm saying at all. I'm saying teamliquid.net has a certain level of accountability when they publish an article by someone on their staff. And yes, that staff member started as a normal guy here, but TL selected him to represent TL as well. I read the elephant in the room article. Many thought TL screwed up by making it a final edit as well, that it didn't meet TL standards. And that article wasn't bashing a rival team. As much as we try to seperate teamliquid.net from TLAF, they will never be viewed as seperate entities.
TL writers should have their own opinions. They can write editorials. And that would be great. But bashing a rival team in an event recap is just out of place. And while it was one writer, TL editors put it in TLs event recap. So while it may not represent teamliquid.net, they certainly will get and deserve some of the backlash.
On November 28 2011 22:00 Rucho wrote: i STRONGLY disagree with the "bambino" award going to Naniwa.
The opponents were MUCH weaker as MLG SCII was just getting off the ground, 4gates were still very powerful, and there were little to no koreans. Naniwa pretty much won for having the best 4 gate that weekend.
This is completely different compared to Leenock's impressive domination of the best players in the world. Who WASN'T there? Clide maybe? Polt? I don't remember. The series against DRG alone was out of this world.
quote for truth. if this was an election, I'd ask for recounting the votes. ^^" but since it is not, I'd just ask to please consider the opponents each respective player had to go through (leenock had to walk over naniwa for that matter). so on the one hand you had an invincible looking (well, not only looking) Naniwa making a legendary run in a lesser player pool, on the other hand you have leenock making the same run, though not as classy as Naniwa, but through a harder pool of players, with the endboss being nobody else besides Naniwa, the legendary runner, himself.
I do, however, still think Nestea and MVP are the best players in the world. You might not be able to call them unbeatable God's of starcraft, but their level of consistency is unmatched in my opninion. They may not win every single tournament they enter handily but honestly, if you compare tournament wins / placements / players beaten I don't think anyone else comes close. Everyone will notice if Nestea and MVP gets 12th and 4th spot in arguably one of the hardest tournaments ever, and we start to question their abilities, but this happens to everyone else as well all the time! In truth, it happens to everyone else alot more often! That is why these 2 are the better players in sc2 so far. Atleast that is my opinion
Also regarding the EG team house, I kinda disagree again. Having 3 players with really really good results is something most teams could only dream about. Of course, as far as I know Huk hasn't spent that much time in the team house, but Puma being in the US and not getting worse is an acomplishment in itself. And Idra preforming amazingly as of late should be worth the investment alone. Also the talk about Demuslism playing like a beast is worth taking into account even though he hadn't had the chance to quite show this to the world. I do not quite understand this mentality of when it comes to EG everyone has to preform amazingly otherwise their team house was a waste.? I mean, look at the korean teams? Most of them have a couple of really good famous players and then alot of good players who are very good for the team in the practice enviroment. Why should this be any different for EG? I feel like they are burdened to preform alot better just cause they are the first NA team with a team house.
Btw. the past mlg demonstrated that in a battle of the beasts the leenoctopus will beat the gracken 8 times out of 10.
edit:
On November 28 2011 22:16 Cereb wrote: Loved this article!! Great job!!
I do, however, still think Nestea and MVP are the best players in the world. You might not be able to call them unbeatable God's of starcraft, but their level of consistency is unmatched in my opninion. They may not win every single tournament they enter handily but honestly, if you compare tournament wins / placements / players beaten I don't think anyone else comes close. Everyone will notice if Nestea and MVP gets 12th and 4th spot in arguably one of the hardest tournaments ever, and we start to question their abilities, but this happens to everyone else as well all the time! In truth, it happens to everyone else alot more often! That is why these 2 are the better players in sc2 so far. Atleast that is my opinion
Also regarding the EG team house, I kinda disagree again. Having 3 players with really really good results is something most teams could only dream about. Of course, as far as I know Huk hasn't spent that much time in the team house, but Puma being in the US and not getting worse is an acomplishment in itself. And Idra preforming amazingly as of late should be worth the investment alone. Also the talk about Demuslism playing like a beast is worth taking into account even though he hadn't had the chance to quite show this to the world. I do not quite understand this mentality of when it comes to EG everyone has to preform amazingly otherwise their team house was a waste.? I mean, look at the korean teams? Most of them have a couple of really good famous players and then alot of good players who are very good for the team in the practice enviroment. Why should this be any different for EG? I feel like they are burdened to preform alot better just cause they are the first NA team with a team house.
Just my 2 cents
just wanted to remark that puma mainly trained with his Korean training partners while he was in the team house. I think he said something like that in an interview.
On November 28 2011 22:00 Rucho wrote: i STRONGLY disagree with the "bambino" award going to Naniwa.
The opponents were MUCH weaker as MLG SCII was just getting off the ground, 4gates were still very powerful, and there were little to no koreans. Naniwa pretty much won for having the best 4 gate that weekend.
This is completely different compared to Leenock's impressive domination of the best players in the world. Who WASN'T there? Clide maybe? Polt? I don't remember. The series against DRG alone was out of this world.
Just no. Most DOMINATING performacne... Which Naniwa had because he lost 0 games until the finals. Lennocks run was harder and more impressive BUT it was, over all, less dominant.
On November 28 2011 22:00 Rucho wrote: i STRONGLY disagree with the "bambino" award going to Naniwa.
The opponents were MUCH weaker as MLG SCII was just getting off the ground, 4gates were still very powerful, and there were little to no koreans. Naniwa pretty much won for having the best 4 gate that weekend.
This is completely different compared to Leenock's impressive domination of the best players in the world. Who WASN'T there? Clide maybe? Polt? I don't remember. The series against DRG alone was out of this world.
Just no. Most DOMINATING performacne... Which Naniwa had because he lost 0 games until the finals. Lennocks run was harder and more impressive BUT it was, over all, less dominant.
Well, then you got to differ between dominating his opponents or dominating the competitive gaming scene. Naniwa did undoubtedly the first by absolutely owning everybody who dared to stand in his way in Dallas, but Leenock did the second by successively defeating enemies nobody thought he would be able to. ^^"
On November 28 2011 20:17 snailz wrote: its funny how full-time EG player goes on to bash TLAF.Liquid's players just because a member of TL.net community (relatively unimportant and random person) called out his own teammates in an article. i understand your emotions, but two wrongs don't make a right...
On November 28 2011 19:42 iNcontroL wrote:
On November 28 2011 19:40 GLLvz wrote: [quote]
the TL house produced EG's best preforming player and your saying they are doing bad? Jinro 2 times 4th place @ GSL. And bashing TL's team because someone is stateing the obvious, this comming from a offical EG member and not a Random News writer on a community site. pretty low if you ask me!..
nobody is asking you.
stay classy incontrol
Where did incontrol bash liquid guys? And sure it was written by a "relatively unimportant and random person" but the TL staff approved this article and it represents TL as a whole.
Mmm, if you scroll down a bit, I thought it says
The opinions expressed by our users do not reflect the official position of TeamLiquid.net or its staff.
?
This wasn't a user. It was a TL writer posted by a TL admin. This is TL staff material, not a user like you or me.
jmbthirteen is absoultely right, TL users =/= TL writers/staff/admins. it isrepresentative of TL.net opinions.
which many people tend to agree with, even though they perhaps think it's still a dick move. so better to get it out in the open, or? i don't think even the writer knew what was better... after GSL expect 100 pages shitstorm from crazy fanboys, tho
Not saying I agree or disagree with confusedcrib in his article, but let's be clear: something written on our front page is an opinion of the writer and not representative of everyone on TL or even everyone on the TL staff. We have a volunteer staff of ~200 people. Even confusedcrib said before he expected to get flamed for it, it's a relatively controversial opinion that obviously isn't some official statement by our entire site. If everyone has read our news lately there's a decent amount of op-ed-ish style opinion segments.
tldr; never take one writers opinion to represent all of TL
I get what you are saying Hotbid, but when you have an article on the front page of your website, especially one written by a staff member, TL has a certain level of accountability on it. You guys had to approve of his article, the editor allowed it to be published. If a journalist at the new york times writes something that isn't true, the NYT has to pay for it even though it was just one person who wrote it.
Every article on this site, since its beginning, has been made by users of the site.. The reason that these people writing these articles now have 'red icons' is because they have been writing content for the site for a long time.. Alot of articles through the years have sparked fierce debate in the community - The latest example of this probably being "The Elephant in the Room"-article. Now - I don't believe anyone in those some 3000 replies that this article had, was trying to say that it wasn't okay for Teamliquid to 'have this opinion' (Read the article btw) on Starcraft 2 as an E-sports.. So many people were pissed off that it almost came down to blows (In writing ofc)
What you are trying to say is, that Teamliquid.net writers cannot have an oppinion? Wow dude, you are describing a pretty fucking terrible and boring world.. Again, I agree that this made no sense in the context of the article, but if it had been a seperate article about it, I would be cool with it
What you're forgetting thought, is that this is not a "post" written by someone who just wants to share his opinion. This is a news article written by Mr.Whoever and published by TL. If he wanted the opinion to not be a reflection of TL, he shouldn't have written it in a news article.
I'm not taking sides here thought. Just laying it out for you. Incontrol is technically right in what he's saying.
If TL actually wanted to express this opinion, I think its fine. I love the drama. But saying its just some ramble from a random user, is plain wrong.
On November 28 2011 22:00 Rucho wrote: i STRONGLY disagree with the "bambino" award going to Naniwa.
The opponents were MUCH weaker as MLG SCII was just getting off the ground, 4gates were still very powerful, and there were little to no koreans. Naniwa pretty much won for having the best 4 gate that weekend.
This is completely different compared to Leenock's impressive domination of the best players in the world. Who WASN'T there? Clide maybe? Polt? I don't remember. The series against DRG alone was out of this world.
Just no. Most DOMINATING performacne... Which Naniwa had because he lost 0 games until the finals. Lennocks run was harder and more impressive BUT it was, over all, less dominant.
Well, then you got to differ between dominating his opponents or dominating the competitive gaming scene. Naniwa did undoubtedly the first by absolutely owning everybody who dared to stand in his way in Dallas, but Leenock did the second by successively defeating enemies nobody thought he would be able to. ^^"
If NesTea went to a EU craftcup ad went 40-0 would you say it's the most dominating when he is playing EU masters players?
Leenock lost almost no games against the best players n the world, Naniwa lost none against some of the best foriengers.
On November 28 2011 20:17 snailz wrote: its funny how full-time EG player goes on to bash TLAF.Liquid's players just because a member of TL.net community (relatively unimportant and random person) called out his own teammates in an article. i understand your emotions, but two wrongs don't make a right...
On November 28 2011 19:42 iNcontroL wrote: [quote]
nobody is asking you.
stay classy incontrol
Where did incontrol bash liquid guys? And sure it was written by a "relatively unimportant and random person" but the TL staff approved this article and it represents TL as a whole.
Mmm, if you scroll down a bit, I thought it says
The opinions expressed by our users do not reflect the official position of TeamLiquid.net or its staff.
?
This wasn't a user. It was a TL writer posted by a TL admin. This is TL staff material, not a user like you or me.
jmbthirteen is absoultely right, TL users =/= TL writers/staff/admins. it isrepresentative of TL.net opinions.
which many people tend to agree with, even though they perhaps think it's still a dick move. so better to get it out in the open, or? i don't think even the writer knew what was better... after GSL expect 100 pages shitstorm from crazy fanboys, tho
Not saying I agree or disagree with confusedcrib in his article, but let's be clear: something written on our front page is an opinion of the writer and not representative of everyone on TL or even everyone on the TL staff. We have a volunteer staff of ~200 people. Even confusedcrib said before he expected to get flamed for it, it's a relatively controversial opinion that obviously isn't some official statement by our entire site. If everyone has read our news lately there's a decent amount of op-ed-ish style opinion segments.
tldr; never take one writers opinion to represent all of TL
I get what you are saying Hotbid, but when you have an article on the front page of your website, especially one written by a staff member, TL has a certain level of accountability on it. You guys had to approve of his article, the editor allowed it to be published. If a journalist at the new york times writes something that isn't true, the NYT has to pay for it even though it was just one person who wrote it.
Every article on this site, since its beginning, has been made by users of the site.. The reason that these people writing these articles now have 'red icons' is because they have been writing content for the site for a long time.. Alot of articles through the years have sparked fierce debate in the community - The latest example of this probably being "The Elephant in the Room"-article. Now - I don't believe anyone in those some 3000 replies that this article had, was trying to say that it wasn't okay for Teamliquid to 'have this opinion' (Read the article btw) on Starcraft 2 as an E-sports.. So many people were pissed off that it almost came down to blows (In writing ofc)
What you are trying to say is, that Teamliquid.net writers cannot have an oppinion? Wow dude, you are describing a pretty fucking terrible and boring world.. Again, I agree that this made no sense in the context of the article, but if it had been a seperate article about it, I would be cool with it
No, that's not what I'm saying at all. I'm saying teamliquid.net has a certain level of accountability when they publish an article by someone on their staff. And yes, that staff member started as a normal guy here, but TL selected him to represent TL as well. I read the elephant in the room article. Many thought TL screwed up by making it a final edit as well, that it didn't meet TL standards. And that article wasn't bashing a rival team. As much as we try to seperate teamliquid.net from TLAF, they will never be viewed as seperate entities.
TL writers should have their own opinions. They can write editorials. And that would be great. But bashing a rival team in an event recap is just out of place. And while it was one writer, TL editors put it in TLs event recap. So while it may not represent teamliquid.net, they certainly will get and deserve some of the backlash.
Accountability to whom? Plenty of teams and players have been criticized in the past articles, especially for their performance. It's nothing unusual, and I see no reason to make an exception for any team because they're oh so sensitive about it. This isn't the first time EG is butthurt over something published on TL.
If TL adopts that as a principle, then they would have to adopt the same attitude towards every team and player and simply discourage criticism and negative reviews, which reduces the quality and objectivity of the published content and pretty much makes it worthless fluff.
Ultimately, people always have the option to use myeg.net for their SC2 community hub if they so prefer.
On November 28 2011 22:00 Rucho wrote: i STRONGLY disagree with the "bambino" award going to Naniwa.
The opponents were MUCH weaker as MLG SCII was just getting off the ground, 4gates were still very powerful, and there were little to no koreans. Naniwa pretty much won for having the best 4 gate that weekend.
This is completely different compared to Leenock's impressive domination of the best players in the world. Who WASN'T there? Clide maybe? Polt? I don't remember. The series against DRG alone was out of this world.
quote for truth. if this was an election, I'd ask for recounting the votes. ^^" but since it is not, I'd just ask to please consider the opponents each respective player had to go through (leenock had to walk over naniwa for that matter). so on the one hand you had an invincible looking (well, not only looking) Naniwa making a legendary run in a lesser player pool, on the other hand you have leenock making the same run, though not as classy as Naniwa, but through a harder pool of players, with the endboss being nobody else besides Naniwa, the legendary runner, himself.
I thinks it's all relative to be honest. On that mlg dallas weekend vs the players that were there Naniwa was unstoppable, he dropped 2 games but no series. On that mlg providence weekend leenock was a madman but he was still mortal, dropped 5 games, 1 series and nearly didn't make the finals in that last series vs DRG.
It's like how Nestea made a perfect GSL run and the season afterwards MVP had a nearly perfect run against much tougher opponents. Technically Nestea was more dominant even if he happened to luck out in the brackets etc etc.
Eh I would not agree with confusedcrib's assessment of the EG house and its value. Even if many of the players plan on staying in Korea for the majority of the year, it still is a good place for the players to rest before MLG's (which will be really important for the 2012 and the future). Having a team house will always be a good thing, especially since it is too soon to definitively say that it has not helped some of the members.
For the people saying that TL shouldn't have an opinion article on the front page, I want to ask, exactly what else is in an article? The only other thing I can think of it just news, translations, or play by play battle reports. Let's face it, TL articles written by volunteer staff have always been opinion articles. It just so happens this particular opinion article digs at EG and Incontrol (who I love, but comon who's surprised he's the one raising a fuss over it) got sensitive.
I view any opinion article like I do balance threads, as long as there is content and work put into it then I don't see why they shouldn't be allowed to exist on TL (within reason).
We want TL to have opinion pieces in our news. However this does not mean that we want to use the term opinion piece as an excuse for posting content that probably should not have been posted. We're internally reviewing the article currently, mostly with regards to how we will do things in the future.
calling out EG house.. ok. Well TL abandoned korea cause their results were even worse there so maybe the investment of TL / oGs was a bad idea as well? A worse idea even...
but that'd be a dumb thing to say.. especially on an official article. We have had the house for 3 months and the results have gotten a helluva lot better but you are going to say it was a waste? get real.
overreact more please. calling out TL on their results won't do much good when Idra was seeded #1 and placed 8th, while strifecro and axslav didn't even make it out of open brackets, much less placing in the top 32. And I guess we shouldn't talk about your own results, also not making it to the semis of open bracket. The only EG players (other than puma/huk/idra) that have any results to speak of are machine losing to nestea and maybe strifecro for making it pretty far in the loser's bracket. ofc there are a bunch of random circumstances that happen in brackets, resulting in misleading placements, but 5 TL vs 3 EG in top 32 speaks for itself.
seriously, if you're going to make a point, at least back it up with facts instead of throwing out barely concealed ad-hominems at the writers and a supposed "rival team."
calling out EG house.. ok. Well TL abandoned korea cause their results were even worse there so maybe the investment of TL / oGs was a bad idea as well? A worse idea even...
but that'd be a dumb thing to say.. especially on an official article. We have had the house for 3 months and the results have gotten a helluva lot better but you are going to say it was a waste? get real.
overreact more please. calling out TL on their results won't do much good when Idra was seeded #1 and placed 8th, while strifecro and axslav didn't even make it out of open brackets, much less placing in the top 32. And I guess we shouldn't talk about your own results, also not making it to the semis of open bracket. The only EG players (other than puma/huk/idra) that have any results to speak of are machine losing to nestea and maybe strifecro for making it pretty far in the loser's bracket. ofc there are a bunch of random circumstances that happen in brackets, resulting in misleading placements, but 5 TL vs 3 EG in top 32 speaks for itself.
seriously, if you're going to make a point, at least back it up with facts instead of throwing out barely concealed ad-hominems at the writers and a supposed "rival team."
He's joking. Calling a team house's worth into question is obviously a stupid thing to say.
On November 28 2011 22:00 Rucho wrote: i STRONGLY disagree with the "bambino" award going to Naniwa.
The opponents were MUCH weaker as MLG SCII was just getting off the ground, 4gates were still very powerful, and there were little to no koreans. Naniwa pretty much won for having the best 4 gate that weekend.
This is completely different compared to Leenock's impressive domination of the best players in the world. Who WASN'T there? Clide maybe? Polt? I don't remember. The series against DRG alone was out of this world.
Just no. Most DOMINATING performacne... Which Naniwa had because he lost 0 games until the finals. Lennocks run was harder and more impressive BUT it was, over all, less dominant.
Well, then you got to differ between dominating his opponents or dominating the competitive gaming scene. Naniwa did undoubtedly the first by absolutely owning everybody who dared to stand in his way in Dallas, but Leenock did the second by successively defeating enemies nobody thought he would be able to. ^^"
If NesTea went to a EU craftcup ad went 40-0 would you say it's the most dominating when he is playing EU masters players?
Leenock lost almost no games against the best players n the world, Naniwa lost none against some of the best foriengers.
If Naniwa had been a Korean that would be a fair point. He's not. He had the same training conditions as anyone else at Dallas and completely dominated them.
calling out EG house.. ok. Well TL abandoned korea cause their results were even worse there so maybe the investment of TL / oGs was a bad idea as well? A worse idea even...
but that'd be a dumb thing to say.. especially on an official article. We have had the house for 3 months and the results have gotten a helluva lot better but you are going to say it was a waste? get real.
overreact more please. calling out TL on their results won't do much good when Idra was seeded #1 and placed 8th, while strifecro and axslav didn't even make it out of open brackets, much less placing in the top 32. And I guess we shouldn't talk about your own results, also not making it to the semis of open bracket. The only EG players (other than puma/huk/idra) that have any results to speak of are machine losing to nestea and maybe strifecro for making it pretty far in the loser's bracket. ofc there are a bunch of random circumstances that happen in brackets, resulting in misleading placements, but 5 TL vs 3 EG in top 32 speaks for itself.
seriously, if you're going to make a point, at least back it up with facts instead of throwing out barely concealed ad-hominems at the writers and a supposed "rival team."
hmm... maybe in MLG there were 5 TL vs 3 EG in top 32, but in NASL 2 the top 16 has 4 EG's vs 2 Liquids (yupe, EG's Strongest roster: idrA, Huk, Puma, Demuslim Vs Sheth, Hero)
also idrA might have been seeded 1#, but had to fight MC, Puma and Leenock (who eventually won MLG...), so finishing 8# against such strong opponents is no upset :/
On November 28 2011 19:20 Zlasher wrote: How about Jinro? He didn't make any large run and he doesn't just live in a house for 4 months, he's been there for like 16 months practicing with what is the most represented Code S Korean team.
4th place GSL 2 times in the start dosent count? Yes he has fallen off after that but you dont need to say that he havent done anything...
No it doesn't count. Him winning using an abusing TvZ style and a mech style that nobody adapted against in the other match up's didn't make him the better player for playing in a team house it made him a player who was winning from abuse and lack of smart opponents. When he did wind up facing the decent Code S players he got stomped. It has been said by many that there are plenty of people in Code S who shouldn't be there. It was true back then and it will probably still be true next season even with this format change.
Meanwhile their article really isn't saying the team house wasn't a good idea, but pointing out that the house existing isn't enough. It seems like these players are getting worse at match ups despite not only playing in a house together, but after the team has recruited two very good players (huk and puma). EG is still my favorite team, but I would really like a couple more players (machine, inc, demus) to make runs deeper in these tournaments tired of having to watch Puma barely get beat, idra lose series to the accidental gg slip, and Huk continue to Boss it out, but tunnel vision his way out of an advantage.
i dont think he was abusing anytihng he was just one of the first players to play a macro style tarren.
Let me rewrite it. TvZ - abusive (now nerfed) bunker rushes. TvT and TvP - mech style that enemies LET run them over. When someone thought "hey my normal strategy won't work because he isn't using a normal strategy let me do something else" it was over and both times he was stopped and hard.
So, he made it to two Ro4's because Blizzard made T OP and some people in Code S have no brains. Exaggerated, but true.
calling out EG house.. ok. Well TL abandoned korea cause their results were even worse there so maybe the investment of TL / oGs was a bad idea as well? A worse idea even...
but that'd be a dumb thing to say.. especially on an official article. We have had the house for 3 months and the results have gotten a helluva lot better but you are going to say it was a waste? get real.
overreact more please. calling out TL on their results won't do much good when Idra was seeded #1 and placed 8th, while strifecro and axslav didn't even make it out of open brackets, much less placing in the top 32. And I guess we shouldn't talk about your own results, also not making it to the semis of open bracket. The only EG players (other than puma/huk/idra) that have any results to speak of are machine losing to nestea and maybe strifecro for making it pretty far in the loser's bracket. ofc there are a bunch of random circumstances that happen in brackets, resulting in misleading placements, but 5 TL vs 3 EG in top 32 speaks for itself.
seriously, if you're going to make a point, at least back it up with facts instead of throwing out barely concealed ad-hominems at the writers and a supposed "rival team."
hmm... maybe in MLG there were 5 TL vs 3 EG in top 32, but in NASL 2 the top 16 has 4 EG's vs 2 Liquids (yupe, EG's Strongest roster: idrA, Huk, Puma, Demuslim Vs Sheth, Hero)
also idrA might have been seeded 1#, but had to fight MC, Puma and Leenock (who eventually won MLG...), so finishing 8# against such strong opponents is no upset :/
The EG house topic in an interesting discussion, but the writer didn't take into account all the factors. And the discussion probably shouldn't take place in an MLG news article.
On November 28 2011 22:00 Rucho wrote: i STRONGLY disagree with the "bambino" award going to Naniwa.
The opponents were MUCH weaker as MLG SCII was just getting off the ground, 4gates were still very powerful, and there were little to no koreans. Naniwa pretty much won for having the best 4 gate that weekend.
This is completely different compared to Leenock's impressive domination of the best players in the world. Who WASN'T there? Clide maybe? Polt? I don't remember. The series against DRG alone was out of this world.
The series that Leenock lost?
I think you bring up fairly good points, but that doesn't really affect the definition of "dominance." Naniwa was absolutely dominant/untouchable in Dallas. Leenock was NOT untouchable in Providence.
Obviously, Leenock proved himself to be the better player (and I believe I mentioned this in the post). He had the more impressive run, but not the more dominant one.
What I think is a better argument is this: okay, so Naniwa was more dominant, but who cares? Leenock was better/more impressive.
I think if I could go back and rewrite my section, I'd probably change the award to "Most Impressive Run," because I still think Naniwa's was more dominant, and yet in retrospect, that dominance means little compared to what happened during the rest of the pro circuit. Would that this desk were a time desk.
calling out EG house.. ok. Well TL abandoned korea cause their results were even worse there so maybe the investment of TL / oGs was a bad idea as well? A worse idea even...
but that'd be a dumb thing to say.. especially on an official article. We have had the house for 3 months and the results have gotten a helluva lot better but you are going to say it was a waste? get real.
overreact more please. calling out TL on their results won't do much good when Idra was seeded #1 and placed 8th, while strifecro and axslav didn't even make it out of open brackets, much less placing in the top 32. And I guess we shouldn't talk about your own results, also not making it to the semis of open bracket. The only EG players (other than puma/huk/idra) that have any results to speak of are machine losing to nestea and maybe strifecro for making it pretty far in the loser's bracket. ofc there are a bunch of random circumstances that happen in brackets, resulting in misleading placements, but 5 TL vs 3 EG in top 32 speaks for itself.
seriously, if you're going to make a point, at least back it up with facts instead of throwing out barely concealed ad-hominems at the writers and a supposed "rival team."
hmm... maybe in MLG there were 5 TL vs 3 EG in top 32, but in NASL 2 the top 16 has 4 EG's vs 2 Liquids (yupe, EG's Strongest roster: idrA, Huk, Puma, Demuslim Vs Sheth, Hero)
also idrA might have been seeded 1#, but had to fight MC, Puma and Leenock (who eventually won MLG...), so finishing 8# against such strong opponents is no upset :/
Did you just compare NASL with MLG providence?
pretty much :/ if NASL is easyer, then there should be more than 2 liquids (out of 6) on top 16 :/
there are always up's and downs, sometimes TL players are doing very well, sometimes EG players are doing very well, they are both really high level teams.
except for the MVP/Nestea analysis and doubt. Now I am no nestea/MVP fanboy or anything, but its easy to remember that players can lose games that they are the favorites in. Nestea I think has been slumping, whether or not he is going to come back from that slump, only time will tell. HOWEVER, MVP took 4th place. that's pretty damn good and I don't think that he should be written off as not the best player in the world, his accomplishments are still quite amazing and if taking a 4th place finish in a tournament of this caliber makes you doubt his skill then that might prove that he is in fact, the best.
The Decorah Eagles Milgie for best LR thread MLG Dallas was beset by more technical problems than any major SC2 tournament to date (other contenders: Blizzcon 2010 Invitational, NASL Grand Finals Day 1, IPL 3, and the PPSL). Because of the venue's poor internet, MLG was only able to stream a grand total of three matches over the entire Saturday. So what happens when you promise tens of thousands of Starcraft fans the greatest Starcraft of their lives, and then withhold it from them?
This happens, the Day 2 Live Report thread. The broken stream hammered spectators to desperation, and in their desperation, they turned to something they didn't fully understand: eagles. The thread is filled with eagle macros. Pictures of kittens jumping over streams. Fake MLG stream notices. The kind of shenanigans that no TL mod would ever tolerate in any other circumstance. But on that day, everyone had thrown up their hands, and this LR thread is a testament to the wanton abandon that filled the Starcraft void.
The Dallas live threads was great fun yes, but I seem to remember mods all of a sudden banning everybody(and the fun along with it) on day 2 before locking the thread. Do I remember it wrong? I'm pretty sure that's what happened.
On November 28 2011 19:41 iNcontroL wrote: pretty stupid of TL to post an article where they literally call into question making a team house.. what the fuck?
I want a vile, vVv, coL (america), Mouz, Empire etc etc etc.. house.. I want as many teams as possible taking this shit serious. Where the FUCK does TL get off calling out someone else for making a team house for themselves? A waste? It can NEVER be a waste. Even if Machine, myself, Axslav or Strife NEVER win a MLG the house is NOT a waste. It is where serious players get more serious and do the best they can to train and get better. It is where legitimate media is produced, serious practice is had and better results are posted..
I expect WAY more from TL than this shit. Everyone and their mother could call out TL for their results and their partnership/house with oGs but they don't because that would be a dumb thing to do in this community.. and yet the #1 community website goes out and calls out their rival while turning the blinders to their own crowd of players who are "carried" by players who churn out less results than the ones who carry EG... wtf.
This, a thousand times over. I won't lose any respect for Team Liquid the TEAM, but the website/staff sorta lost some points on this one. It's super ignorant of them. There's SO many parrallels between EG and TL at this point, that are the exact same things the OP is whining about in EG. Only having a few of your players currently doing super well? Check. Adding in new, Korean players, who then are on the top of your performers? Check. Having the players producing less results still stick it out like a boss and train their hearts out? Check.
How can the OP not see the correlations? Fuck, these team houses ARE working. Idra has become such a macro god, that even the likes of BOMBER are afraid to go into a long game with him, and instead push for early wins. When the top Korean Terrans in the world are afraid to stand and bang with you, you're doing something fucking right. And where has Idra been living and training?
Heaven forbid that making a teamhouse doesn't make all your players immediate champions. Look at half the houses in Korea? MVP, TSL, Prime? Where are their results? They're all decent players, but each team only has a couple that are dominant.
The Decorah Eagles Milgie for best LR thread MLG Dallas was beset by more technical problems than any major SC2 tournament to date (other contenders: Blizzcon 2010 Invitational, NASL Grand Finals Day 1, IPL 3, and the PPSL). Because of the venue's poor internet, MLG was only able to stream a grand total of three matches over the entire Saturday. So what happens when you promise tens of thousands of Starcraft fans the greatest Starcraft of their lives, and then withhold it from them?
This happens, the Day 2 Live Report thread. The broken stream hammered spectators to desperation, and in their desperation, they turned to something they didn't fully understand: eagles. The thread is filled with eagle macros. Pictures of kittens jumping over streams. Fake MLG stream notices. The kind of shenanigans that no TL mod would ever tolerate in any other circumstance. But on that day, everyone had thrown up their hands, and this LR thread is a testament to the wanton abandon that filled the Starcraft void.
The Dallas live threads was great fun yes, but I seem to remember mods all of a sudden banning everybody(and the fun along with it) on day 2 before locking the thread. Do I remember it wrong? I'm pretty sure that's what happened.
On November 28 2011 19:41 iNcontroL wrote: pretty stupid of TL to post an article where they literally call into question making a team house.. what the fuck?
I want a vile, vVv, coL (america), Mouz, Empire etc etc etc.. house.. I want as many teams as possible taking this shit serious. Where the FUCK does TL get off calling out someone else for making a team house for themselves? A waste? It can NEVER be a waste. Even if Machine, myself, Axslav or Strife NEVER win a MLG the house is NOT a waste. It is where serious players get more serious and do the best they can to train and get better. It is where legitimate media is produced, serious practice is had and better results are posted..
I expect WAY more from TL than this shit. Everyone and their mother could call out TL for their results and their partnership/house with oGs but they don't because that would be a dumb thing to do in this community.. and yet the #1 community website goes out and calls out their rival while turning the blinders to their own crowd of players who are "carried" by players who churn out less results than the ones who carry EG... wtf.
This, a thousand times over. I won't lose any respect for Team Liquid the TEAM, but the website/staff sorta lost some points on this one. It's super ignorant of them. There's SO many parrallels between EG and TL at this point, that are the exact same things the OP is whining about in EG. Only having a few of your players currently doing super well? Check. Adding in new, Korean players, who then are on the top of your performers? Check. Having the players producing less results still stick it out like a boss and train their hearts out? Check.
How can the OP not see the correlations? Fuck, these team houses ARE working. Idra has become such a macro god, that even the likes of BOMBER are afraid to go into a long game with him, and instead push for early wins. When the top Korean Terrans in the world are afraid to stand and bang with you, you're doing something fucking right. And where has Idra been living and training?
Heaven forbid that making a teamhouse doesn't make all your players immediate champions. Look at half the houses in Korea? MVP, TSL, Prime? Where are their results? They're all decent players, but each team only has a couple that are dominant.
Herp Derp, OP. Herp. Derp.
The staff should be free to write what they want. Enough with the hurting esports posts.. If EG really wanted to maximise their players' potential the house would be in Korea imo.
I'm surprised people are so up in arms over the EG thing and the 'upset' thing.
I thought the EG thing raised a good point. If only the big 3, who were amazing before joining are the only ones performing, then is the house working? It also raises the question of team houses in general, and foreigner practise regimes. That's something people are interested in especially with the foreigner v korean debates, and on the topic a lot of people view EG's big 3 as Koreans in that sense. Maybe i need to be an EG member to take this personally and go off like Geoff, but even then it seems like a fair question not deserving the outrage directed at it. Surely one could have reponded in a more civil fashion and not take everything as an attack? I guess not.
And linked into that is the upset thing. Yeah those aren't upsets, we know that. Ok so poor research / knowledge of current player power levels. But he did raise the point that there's a group of players outperforming players on more prestigous teams. So what does 'pro gamer' mean if the 'pros' are losing to 'amateurs'? That's a fair question. I'm intrigued by the performance v personality factor which takes place in SC2. There are a lot of really nice, fun, interesting players out there who do not put up results. Then there's quiet achievers who do well pretty consistently who might do a lot better if they were given chances by a top team. It's an interesting situation worth talking about.
Of course i like looking past the silliness and finding the truth to an issue. Others, not so much it seems. Easily offended and enraged people are in 2011. It's like you see something inflamatory and you're blinded by it and can no longer dissect the heart of the issue presented. It's unfortunate that genuine conversation cannot happen due to people's emotional states.
In saying all of that i'm still surprised this made it to print like that. Of course i was surprised the Elephant thing got printed too. Both getting strong, overly dramatic and blown out of proportion reactions. I'm surprised they got past whatever internal editing / review process exists. If i were involved i'd have questioned it. But mostly because i knew some thin skinned individuals would get all defensive and start comparing EG to TL and blah blah blah.
Oy vey.
Well i enjoyed the article for the most part. Interesting on Leenock v Naniwa. Leenock didn't look dominant, but won a much tougher tournament. Gotta give it to Naniwa, he destroyed the MLG he won. Dominance is a pretty clear cut word and that was the criteria.
On November 28 2011 19:41 iNcontroL wrote: pretty stupid of TL to post an article where they literally call into question making a team house.. what the fuck?
I want a vile, vVv, coL (america), Mouz, Empire etc etc etc.. house.. I want as many teams as possible taking this shit serious. Where the FUCK does TL get off calling out someone else for making a team house for themselves? A waste? It can NEVER be a waste. Even if Machine, myself, Axslav or Strife NEVER win a MLG the house is NOT a waste. It is where serious players get more serious and do the best they can to train and get better. It is where legitimate media is produced, serious practice is had and better results are posted..
I expect WAY more from TL than this shit. Everyone and their mother could call out TL for their results and their partnership/house with oGs but they don't because that would be a dumb thing to do in this community.. and yet the #1 community website goes out and calls out their rival while turning the blinders to their own crowd of players who are "carried" by players who churn out less results than the ones who carry EG... wtf.
This, a thousand times over. I won't lose any respect for Team Liquid the TEAM, but the website/staff sorta lost some points on this one. It's super ignorant of them. There's SO many parrallels between EG and TL at this point, that are the exact same things the OP is whining about in EG. Only having a few of your players currently doing super well? Check. Adding in new, Korean players, who then are on the top of your performers? Check. Having the players producing less results still stick it out like a boss and train their hearts out? Check.
How can the OP not see the correlations? Fuck, these team houses ARE working. Idra has become such a macro god, that even the likes of BOMBER are afraid to go into a long game with him, and instead push for early wins. When the top Korean Terrans in the world are afraid to stand and bang with you, you're doing something fucking right. And where has Idra been living and training?
Heaven forbid that making a teamhouse doesn't make all your players immediate champions. Look at half the houses in Korea? MVP, TSL, Prime? Where are their results? They're all decent players, but each team only has a couple that are dominant.
Herp Derp, OP. Herp. Derp.
The staff should be free to write what they want. Enough with the hurting esports posts.. If EG really wanted to maximise their players' potential the house would be in Korea imo.
Idra and puma were both really good before the team house came into play, the point of the op's article about it was that the lower tier of players are not getting any better at all, i'd say they are getting worse. no need to get so anal about it it's true
I see a lot of people are mixed on the EG segment of the article, but it's kind of true. Looking at the MLG results over the course of the year, aside from their top players (IdrA, HuK, and Puma), overall they go down. I'm not sure if this can be attributed to the player dorm house or just having an unlucky showing. Don't get me wrong, I still love the team. It's just numbers are convincing evidence.
Also, TL doesn't even have a team house, so I am not sure where all this comparison is coming from. Even if they did have a Team House, I am sure that they would come under this kind of inspection as well.
Edit: I don't consider the oGs/TL thing a "house". There's like no one there.
kk, everyone here raised some interesting points about the article, but lets plz stop debating over EG and TL... i love EG vs TL for the Epic games and rivalry, and now that TL has Zenio, it just become 100x better.
with idrA as EG's top zerg, Huk's top protoss, Demu/Puma top terran Vs Zenio/ret as top TL zerg, Hero top protoss and jinro as their top terran, everytime they'll face it will be an Epic match (like hero vs puma DH 2011 )
always makes me sad when people are arguing who is better like Huk said: "Whoever wins will be most deserving. Good luck to both i love" (Puma vs Hero DH)
I'm rarely one to be critical, but really... The list of 'no names' who supposedly upset better players is hilarious. Winning the game isn't a popularity contest. Saying something like "here's some famous players who lost to lesser known ones" would have made sense, but then talking about a skill gap closing doesn't make sense as famous doesn't necessarily mean skilled.
On November 28 2011 16:53 Sadistx wrote: I'm sad that you guys didn't mention this guy, who, while not winning Providence, did at 15 years of age, come 24th in the most stacked MLG to date.
None of these results are a surprise, except maybe Forbs breaking out. Everyone else who won was pretty much already the favorite, if you follow the scene semi-closely.
Do not agree at all. And most of them aren't just top ladder either, they are on sponsored teams too, so "rise of the nonames" is quite inappropriate.
I just noticed in the Leenocktopus pic that DRG, the player who took the most games off leenock at mlg is the person fighting the hardest and is the closest to freeing himself ( it sorta looks like he's pushing himself up out of leenock's grasp and his atleast halfway out). I also love how everyone else is either sad or in pain but DRG and Naniwa are angry/determined. There's so many little details and so much to love about the art, fishuu is do damn good at this.
Surprised Illusion didnt get put into upsets (let's face it, Illusion is good but he darkhorsed the shit outta MLG - definitely didn't place him at 24th in my predicitons LOL) or at least the 'surprises" section.
Otherwise - nice photos at the end there! Article was good too
On November 28 2011 19:41 iNcontroL wrote: pretty stupid of TL to post an article where they literally call into question making a team house.. what the fuck?
I want a vile, vVv, coL (america), Mouz, Empire etc etc etc.. house.. I want as many teams as possible taking this shit serious. Where the FUCK does TL get off calling out someone else for making a team house for themselves? A waste? It can NEVER be a waste. Even if Machine, myself, Axslav or Strife NEVER win a MLG the house is NOT a waste. It is where serious players get more serious and do the best they can to train and get better. It is where legitimate media is produced, serious practice is had and better results are posted..
I expect WAY more from TL than this shit. Everyone and their mother could call out TL for their results and their partnership/house with oGs but they don't because that would be a dumb thing to do in this community.. and yet the #1 community website goes out and calls out their rival while turning the blinders to their own crowd of players who are "carried" by players who churn out less results than the ones who carry EG... wtf.
This, a thousand times over. I won't lose any respect for Team Liquid the TEAM, but the website/staff sorta lost some points on this one. It's super ignorant of them. There's SO many parrallels between EG and TL at this point, that are the exact same things the OP is whining about in EG. Only having a few of your players currently doing super well? Check. Adding in new, Korean players, who then are on the top of your performers? Check. Having the players producing less results still stick it out like a boss and train their hearts out? Check.
How can the OP not see the correlations? Fuck, these team houses ARE working. Idra has become such a macro god, that even the likes of BOMBER are afraid to go into a long game with him, and instead push for early wins. When the top Korean Terrans in the world are afraid to stand and bang with you, you're doing something fucking right. And where has Idra been living and training?
Heaven forbid that making a teamhouse doesn't make all your players immediate champions. Look at half the houses in Korea? MVP, TSL, Prime? Where are their results? They're all decent players, but each team only has a couple that are dominant.
Herp Derp, OP. Herp. Derp.
First a disclaimer that I don't necessarily disagree with what the above posters said. I might not agree with everything that was said, but I agree with the general directions they are heading to. Anyways, I didn't make this post just to post my opinion.
I only wanted to say that it is statistical nonsense to point at a single player in a house doing well and, on that basis, claim that the system of the house works, while ignoring all the others which are performing poorly. If you want to conclude from results to how good the system works, which is basically the basic question of statistics, sample size is all that counts. The bigger the sample size the more legitimate the conclusion you draw from it.
On November 28 2011 19:41 iNcontroL wrote: pretty stupid of TL to post an article where they literally call into question making a team house.. what the fuck?
I want a vile, vVv, coL (america), Mouz, Empire etc etc etc.. house.. I want as many teams as possible taking this shit serious. Where the FUCK does TL get off calling out someone else for making a team house for themselves? A waste? It can NEVER be a waste. Even if Machine, myself, Axslav or Strife NEVER win a MLG the house is NOT a waste. It is where serious players get more serious and do the best they can to train and get better. It is where legitimate media is produced, serious practice is had and better results are posted..
I expect WAY more from TL than this shit. Everyone and their mother could call out TL for their results and their partnership/house with oGs but they don't because that would be a dumb thing to do in this community.. and yet the #1 community website goes out and calls out their rival while turning the blinders to their own crowd of players who are "carried" by players who churn out less results than the ones who carry EG... wtf.
This, a thousand times over. I won't lose any respect for Team Liquid the TEAM, but the website/staff sorta lost some points on this one. It's super ignorant of them. There's SO many parrallels between EG and TL at this point, that are the exact same things the OP is whining about in EG. Only having a few of your players currently doing super well? Check. Adding in new, Korean players, who then are on the top of your performers? Check. Having the players producing less results still stick it out like a boss and train their hearts out? Check.
How can the OP not see the correlations? Fuck, these team houses ARE working. Idra has become such a macro god, that even the likes of BOMBER are afraid to go into a long game with him, and instead push for early wins. When the top Korean Terrans in the world are afraid to stand and bang with you, you're doing something fucking right. And where has Idra been living and training?
Heaven forbid that making a teamhouse doesn't make all your players immediate champions. Look at half the houses in Korea? MVP, TSL, Prime? Where are their results? They're all decent players, but each team only has a couple that are dominant.
Herp Derp, OP. Herp. Derp.
This was almost the reaction I had at first upon reading the article, but after I read a few pages of posts here, including a few posts detailing how lax the EG practice house really is (apparently they don't have a coach to keep them on a strict regiment, or any in-house practice rankings to bolster the competitive environment?!) It seems to me that the EG "Team House" is more of an EG "Frat House" where everyone plays some ladder games, knocks back a few drinks, and then hit the gym.
On November 29 2011 02:10 Chill wrote: Please have more neutral writeups in the future.
Games being played. Tournament being won. Fun being had.
Ahaha - That was exactly what I was thinking when I read the angry posts, Moderate Temperature, caster of the NeutralStrategy.com TeamNeutral.net invitational.
On November 28 2011 19:41 iNcontroL wrote: pretty stupid of TL to post an article where they literally call into question making a team house.. what the fuck?
I want a vile, vVv, coL (america), Mouz, Empire etc etc etc.. house.. I want as many teams as possible taking this shit serious. Where the FUCK does TL get off calling out someone else for making a team house for themselves? A waste? It can NEVER be a waste. Even if Machine, myself, Axslav or Strife NEVER win a MLG the house is NOT a waste. It is where serious players get more serious and do the best they can to train and get better. It is where legitimate media is produced, serious practice is had and better results are posted..
I expect WAY more from TL than this shit. Everyone and their mother could call out TL for their results and their partnership/house with oGs but they don't because that would be a dumb thing to do in this community.. and yet the #1 community website goes out and calls out their rival while turning the blinders to their own crowd of players who are "carried" by players who churn out less results than the ones who carry EG... wtf.
This, a thousand times over. I won't lose any respect for Team Liquid the TEAM, but the website/staff sorta lost some points on this one. It's super ignorant of them. There's SO many parrallels between EG and TL at this point, that are the exact same things the OP is whining about in EG. Only having a few of your players currently doing super well? Check. Adding in new, Korean players, who then are on the top of your performers? Check. Having the players producing less results still stick it out like a boss and train their hearts out? Check.
How can the OP not see the correlations? Fuck, these team houses ARE working. Idra has become such a macro god, that even the likes of BOMBER are afraid to go into a long game with him, and instead push for early wins. When the top Korean Terrans in the world are afraid to stand and bang with you, you're doing something fucking right. And where has Idra been living and training?
Heaven forbid that making a teamhouse doesn't make all your players immediate champions. Look at half the houses in Korea? MVP, TSL, Prime? Where are their results? They're all decent players, but each team only has a couple that are dominant.
Herp Derp, OP. Herp. Derp.
This was almost the reaction I had at first upon reading the article, but after I read a few pages of posts here, including a few posts detailing how lax the EG practice house really is (apparently they don't have a coach to keep them on a strict regiment, or any in-house practice rankings to bolster the competitive environment?!) It seems to me that the EG "Team House" is more of an EG "Frat House" where everyone plays some ladder games, knocks back a few drinks, and then hit the gym.
Yeah I read those too! I love reading about my life and how it actually is from people who have no idea!
On November 28 2011 19:41 iNcontroL wrote: pretty stupid of TL to post an article where they literally call into question making a team house.. what the fuck?
I want a vile, vVv, coL (america), Mouz, Empire etc etc etc.. house.. I want as many teams as possible taking this shit serious. Where the FUCK does TL get off calling out someone else for making a team house for themselves? A waste? It can NEVER be a waste. Even if Machine, myself, Axslav or Strife NEVER win a MLG the house is NOT a waste. It is where serious players get more serious and do the best they can to train and get better. It is where legitimate media is produced, serious practice is had and better results are posted..
I expect WAY more from TL than this shit. Everyone and their mother could call out TL for their results and their partnership/house with oGs but they don't because that would be a dumb thing to do in this community.. and yet the #1 community website goes out and calls out their rival while turning the blinders to their own crowd of players who are "carried" by players who churn out less results than the ones who carry EG... wtf.
This, a thousand times over. I won't lose any respect for Team Liquid the TEAM, but the website/staff sorta lost some points on this one. It's super ignorant of them. There's SO many parrallels between EG and TL at this point, that are the exact same things the OP is whining about in EG. Only having a few of your players currently doing super well? Check. Adding in new, Korean players, who then are on the top of your performers? Check. Having the players producing less results still stick it out like a boss and train their hearts out? Check.
How can the OP not see the correlations? Fuck, these team houses ARE working. Idra has become such a macro god, that even the likes of BOMBER are afraid to go into a long game with him, and instead push for early wins. When the top Korean Terrans in the world are afraid to stand and bang with you, you're doing something fucking right. And where has Idra been living and training?
Heaven forbid that making a teamhouse doesn't make all your players immediate champions. Look at half the houses in Korea? MVP, TSL, Prime? Where are their results? They're all decent players, but each team only has a couple that are dominant.
Herp Derp, OP. Herp. Derp.
This was almost the reaction I had at first upon reading the article, but after I read a few pages of posts here, including a few posts detailing how lax the EG practice house really is (apparently they don't have a coach to keep them on a strict regiment, or any in-house practice rankings to bolster the competitive environment?!) It seems to me that the EG "Team House" is more of an EG "Frat House" where everyone plays some ladder games, knocks back a few drinks, and then hit the gym.
-TL only has a coach through OGS as far as I know. Perhaps someone might talk to them in a coaching fashion at events, but there is no coach. -Almost all Korean houses go to the Gym -As far as the beer I don't know the customs of the OGSTL,Korean, or EG houses.
But I do agree most of the white people do not practice enough.
On November 28 2011 19:41 iNcontroL wrote: pretty stupid of TL to post an article where they literally call into question making a team house.. what the fuck?
I want a vile, vVv, coL (america), Mouz, Empire etc etc etc.. house.. I want as many teams as possible taking this shit serious. Where the FUCK does TL get off calling out someone else for making a team house for themselves? A waste? It can NEVER be a waste. Even if Machine, myself, Axslav or Strife NEVER win a MLG the house is NOT a waste. It is where serious players get more serious and do the best they can to train and get better. It is where legitimate media is produced, serious practice is had and better results are posted..
I expect WAY more from TL than this shit. Everyone and their mother could call out TL for their results and their partnership/house with oGs but they don't because that would be a dumb thing to do in this community.. and yet the #1 community website goes out and calls out their rival while turning the blinders to their own crowd of players who are "carried" by players who churn out less results than the ones who carry EG... wtf.
This, a thousand times over. I won't lose any respect for Team Liquid the TEAM, but the website/staff sorta lost some points on this one. It's super ignorant of them. There's SO many parrallels between EG and TL at this point, that are the exact same things the OP is whining about in EG. Only having a few of your players currently doing super well? Check. Adding in new, Korean players, who then are on the top of your performers? Check. Having the players producing less results still stick it out like a boss and train their hearts out? Check.
How can the OP not see the correlations? Fuck, these team houses ARE working. Idra has become such a macro god, that even the likes of BOMBER are afraid to go into a long game with him, and instead push for early wins. When the top Korean Terrans in the world are afraid to stand and bang with you, you're doing something fucking right. And where has Idra been living and training?
Heaven forbid that making a teamhouse doesn't make all your players immediate champions. Look at half the houses in Korea? MVP, TSL, Prime? Where are their results? They're all decent players, but each team only has a couple that are dominant.
Herp Derp, OP. Herp. Derp.
This was almost the reaction I had at first upon reading the article, but after I read a few pages of posts here, including a few posts detailing how lax the EG practice house really is (apparently they don't have a coach to keep them on a strict regiment, or any in-house practice rankings to bolster the competitive environment?!) It seems to me that the EG "Team House" is more of an EG "Frat House" where everyone plays some ladder games, knocks back a few drinks, and then hit the gym.
I think the general problem is that western teams in general have too few people in the house. They should have 2-3 players per race so that they can exchange the deeper aspects of the game playing that respective race. Besides, with so few people having a dedicated coach is not really worthwhile. They already have Anna who does some paper work and some pr related work.
And the root of the above problem is that western teams are too spread out to have a central team house. It's not really a fault of the teams, it's just a natural consequence to how the western teams came to be.
edit: regarding team houses, I think the future is teams banding together to open up houses. at least I hope this will be the standard in near future. :-)
On November 28 2011 19:41 iNcontroL wrote: pretty stupid of TL to post an article where they literally call into question making a team house.. what the fuck?
I want a vile, vVv, coL (america), Mouz, Empire etc etc etc.. house.. I want as many teams as possible taking this shit serious. Where the FUCK does TL get off calling out someone else for making a team house for themselves? A waste? It can NEVER be a waste. Even if Machine, myself, Axslav or Strife NEVER win a MLG the house is NOT a waste. It is where serious players get more serious and do the best they can to train and get better. It is where legitimate media is produced, serious practice is had and better results are posted..
I expect WAY more from TL than this shit. Everyone and their mother could call out TL for their results and their partnership/house with oGs but they don't because that would be a dumb thing to do in this community.. and yet the #1 community website goes out and calls out their rival while turning the blinders to their own crowd of players who are "carried" by players who churn out less results than the ones who carry EG... wtf.
This, a thousand times over. I won't lose any respect for Team Liquid the TEAM, but the website/staff sorta lost some points on this one. It's super ignorant of them. There's SO many parrallels between EG and TL at this point, that are the exact same things the OP is whining about in EG. Only having a few of your players currently doing super well? Check. Adding in new, Korean players, who then are on the top of your performers? Check. Having the players producing less results still stick it out like a boss and train their hearts out? Check.
How can the OP not see the correlations? Fuck, these team houses ARE working. Idra has become such a macro god, that even the likes of BOMBER are afraid to go into a long game with him, and instead push for early wins. When the top Korean Terrans in the world are afraid to stand and bang with you, you're doing something fucking right. And where has Idra been living and training?
Heaven forbid that making a teamhouse doesn't make all your players immediate champions. Look at half the houses in Korea? MVP, TSL, Prime? Where are their results? They're all decent players, but each team only has a couple that are dominant.
Herp Derp, OP. Herp. Derp.
This was almost the reaction I had at first upon reading the article, but after I read a few pages of posts here, including a few posts detailing how lax the EG practice house really is (apparently they don't have a coach to keep them on a strict regiment, or any in-house practice rankings to bolster the competitive environment?!) It seems to me that the EG "Team House" is more of an EG "Frat House" where everyone plays some ladder games, knocks back a few drinks, and then hit the gym.
Yeah I read those too! I love reading about my life and how it actually is from people who have no idea!
Its not a question of whether Team houses are good, its more of whether those inside the team houses benefit from them. Its one thing to say that Team Houses are not helping, and its another thing to say that maybe the players are not completely utilizing the houses.
great write up. The only thing i feel kinda sad about is that illusion didn't get any credit at all. Heck, he doesn't even have a wiki entry and he got top 32.
This article is the second time I've come out of a featured article feeling something other than inspired and excited to watch and play more starcraft, the first example being the article "The elephant in the room". I feel like there is one particular thread of similar, flawed logic in both that has me feeling this way.
Both articles serve to undermine the efforts of players to improve. They go about this in different ways, with the elephant article placing the idea in our minds that there is a sword of damocles hanging over the current scene, implicitly making the argument that it's not worth training now, as in a year or two there will be a massive influx of players who will immediately dominate everything about the scene, leaving nothing but table scraps for the current sc2 pros.
This article calls into question the effectiveness of team houses for the bottom half of a team's performers. It seems to say that unless every member of a team is immediately and drastically improved by such an environment then the entire exercise is futile and should be looked upon by sponsors as a failure and a wasted investment. This charge is levied at EG, although if we are to take these statements as anything other than mindless team-bashing we must also inspect other teams' efforts at housing players and expect across-the-board improvement in results. The Korean teams have huge rosters (except TSL) of which half or more have never showed any concrete results in GSL. Given that these houses have been established for more than a year now, is it time to begin criticizing teams like nshoseo or mvp for only sporadically producing players who can make deep runs in tournaments?
I feel as though the implications of the things said by the writing staff of TL should be more thoughtfully considered going forward, if not only to avoid the chorus of EG fans merely swapping the results question around and asking Team Liquid "Where are the results from the bottom half of your roster these days?" then to avoid giving an editorial voice to those posters who expect roster cuts or severe reprimands to every player who doesn't have a breakout performance each tournament.
On November 28 2011 19:41 iNcontroL wrote: pretty stupid of TL to post an article where they literally call into question making a team house.. what the fuck?
I want a vile, vVv, coL (america), Mouz, Empire etc etc etc.. house.. I want as many teams as possible taking this shit serious. Where the FUCK does TL get off calling out someone else for making a team house for themselves? A waste? It can NEVER be a waste. Even if Machine, myself, Axslav or Strife NEVER win a MLG the house is NOT a waste. It is where serious players get more serious and do the best they can to train and get better. It is where legitimate media is produced, serious practice is had and better results are posted..
I expect WAY more from TL than this shit. Everyone and their mother could call out TL for their results and their partnership/house with oGs but they don't because that would be a dumb thing to do in this community.. and yet the #1 community website goes out and calls out their rival while turning the blinders to their own crowd of players who are "carried" by players who churn out less results than the ones who carry EG... wtf.
This, a thousand times over. I won't lose any respect for Team Liquid the TEAM, but the website/staff sorta lost some points on this one. It's super ignorant of them. There's SO many parrallels between EG and TL at this point, that are the exact same things the OP is whining about in EG. Only having a few of your players currently doing super well? Check. Adding in new, Korean players, who then are on the top of your performers? Check. Having the players producing less results still stick it out like a boss and train their hearts out? Check.
How can the OP not see the correlations? Fuck, these team houses ARE working. Idra has become such a macro god, that even the likes of BOMBER are afraid to go into a long game with him, and instead push for early wins. When the top Korean Terrans in the world are afraid to stand and bang with you, you're doing something fucking right. And where has Idra been living and training?
Heaven forbid that making a teamhouse doesn't make all your players immediate champions. Look at half the houses in Korea? MVP, TSL, Prime? Where are their results? They're all decent players, but each team only has a couple that are dominant.
Herp Derp, OP. Herp. Derp.
This was almost the reaction I had at first upon reading the article, but after I read a few pages of posts here, including a few posts detailing how lax the EG practice house really is (apparently they don't have a coach to keep them on a strict regiment, or any in-house practice rankings to bolster the competitive environment?!) It seems to me that the EG "Team House" is more of an EG "Frat House" where everyone plays some ladder games, knocks back a few drinks, and then hit the gym.
Yeah I read those too! I love reading about my life and how it actually is from people who have no idea!
LOL
This comment actually really gave me a great chuckle this morning. I wasn't trying to bash on the EG house like the article was in any case, but I think I'm not the only person who would be interested in knowing a bit more about what goes on there. Being the most prominent NA Team-House, I think we'd all like to see a bit more than IdrA sipping Whiskey on SotG and playing around in a Maserati, etc. (I like to picture iNcontroL's post in his CombatEX Canadian voice.)
Incontrol is amazing at creating drama >.> I agree with someone that posted he over reacted. It's 1 persons opinion and the way he words his post makes it seem everyone is hating of the EG house.
Just another day is Pro Esports....
On November 29 2011 02:27 amazingxkcd wrote: Its not a question of whether Team houses are good, its more of whether those inside the team houses benefit from them. Its one thing to say that Team Houses are not helping, and its another thing to say that maybe the players are not completely utilizing the houses.
I also agree with this! I understand you starcraft is a very stressful game and you need to take breaks everyone once in a while, but when the video of the EG house appeared it showed everyone that it's a damn nice place to live (pool, other game systems[xbox,ps3,etc] and god knows what else is there but does that take away too much time from practicing? None of us will ever know how much they actually practice unless you are there, but if Incontrol says we are practicing "8-10 hours a day before big events" and then frankly they put out terrible results besides the top 3 players it makes you wonder if they are actually practicing that amount of time or if they are, if they are practicing correctly.
I don't mean to call of incontrol in this post but if you are practicing that much and still putting up very poor results your either lying about the amount of time, or your not training correctly.
On November 29 2011 02:37 Zinjil wrote: The Korean teams have huge rosters (except TSL) of which half or more have never showed any concrete results in GSL. Given that these houses have been established for more than a year now, is it time to begin criticizing teams like nshoseo or mvp for only sporadically producing players who can make deep runs in tournaments?
on the current roster of mvp, there is only one who didn't manage to get into code A once this year (i.e. they passed the gruesome hell known as the code A qualifiers). Same can be said for nshoseo with half of the roster actually having been in code S once this year.
But there were more regular GSL seasons than mlg with Korean participation (7 to 5).
On November 29 2011 02:38 FryktSkyene wrote: Incontrol is amazing at creating drama >.> I agree with someone that posted he over reacted. It's 1 persons opinion and the way he words his post makes it seem everyone is hating of the EG house.
On November 29 2011 02:27 amazingxkcd wrote: Its not a question of whether Team houses are good, its more of whether those inside the team houses benefit from them. Its one thing to say that Team Houses are not helping, and its another thing to say that maybe the players are not completely utilizing the houses.
I also agree with this! I understand you starcraft is a very stressful game and you need to take breaks everyone once in a while, but when the video of the EG house appeared it showed everyone that it's a damn nice place to live (pool, other game systems[xbox,ps3,etc] and god knows what else is there but does that take away too much time from practicing? None of us will ever know how much they actually practice unless you are there, but if Incontrol says we are practicing "8-10 hours a day before big events" and then frankly they put out terrible results besides the top 3 players it makes you wonder if they are actually practicing that amount of time or if they are, if they are practicing correctly.
I don't mean to call of incontrol in this post but if you are practicing that much and still putting up very poor results your either lying about the amount of time, or your not training correctly.
so.... TL is "shitting" on EG and you call Incontrol amazing at creating drama?
They have a practise shedulde but also free time. So they aren't allowed to have a live besides sc2? Maybe they don't practise as much as maybe Slayers, but you know what? Not every player in Slayers are world class like MMA.
It does seem rather odd that a teamliquid writer would draw attention to a possible slump in EG's system when it is abundantly clear that Teamliquids results have been less than stellar for months. Sure, Hero won dreamhack, Ret, Haypro, and Sheth have their moments, but many "good" TL players have performed mediocrely for months upon months. Where's the scathing indictment of TL's system?
On the topic of EG, I feel like you're being extremely unfair in an irrational way. You can't say that a teamhouse isn't doing anything productive for a team since every member of the team didn't place top 8. In a tournament of hundreds they are bound to get knocked around a bit when competing with the best of the best from around the world. It's like the only metric you're considering is final placement in this tournament, when every single person could now be twice as good as they were before joining the house. You have no way of knowing whether or not that's the case.
In the end, what matters is the player's improvement, not how high they can place at a tournament. If they're a better player since going to the gamehouse then it's damn worth it.
On November 29 2011 02:38 FryktSkyene wrote: Incontrol is amazing at creating drama >.> I agree with someone that posted he over reacted. It's 1 persons opinion and the way he words his post makes it seem everyone is hating of the EG house.
Just another day is Pro Esports....
On November 29 2011 02:27 amazingxkcd wrote: Its not a question of whether Team houses are good, its more of whether those inside the team houses benefit from them. Its one thing to say that Team Houses are not helping, and its another thing to say that maybe the players are not completely utilizing the houses.
I also agree with this! I understand you starcraft is a very stressful game and you need to take breaks everyone once in a while, but when the video of the EG house appeared it showed everyone that it's a damn nice place to live (pool, other game systems[xbox,ps3,etc] and god knows what else is there but does that take away too much time from practicing? None of us will ever know how much they actually practice unless you are there, but if Incontrol says we are practicing "8-10 hours a day before big events" and then frankly they put out terrible results besides the top 3 players it makes you wonder if they are actually practicing that amount of time or if they are, if they are practicing correctly.
I don't mean to call of incontrol in this post but if you are practicing that much and still putting up very poor results your either lying about the amount of time, or your not training correctly.
so.... TL is "shitting" on EG and you call Incontrol amazing at creating drama?
They have a practise shedulde but also free time. So they aren't allowed to have a live besides sc2? Maybe they don't practise as much as maybe Slayers, but you know what? Not every player in Slayers are world class like MMA.
Did you even read anything in this thread? "TL is shitting on EG" No they are not...One person is making his opinion and it just happens to be in a thread on TL, that doesn't mean all of TL agrees with it. wow.
If you read my post at all it would be pretty clear I know they work a lot (You have no idea how much time they practice unless you are there so don't act you know)
The section on the EG house has been edited since it was originally posted. Here is the original for those that don't understand some of the outrage: + Show Spoiler +
I'll be honest guys, I'm really afraid of getting flamed for this, but it's something that's concerned me for long enough that I'm just going to say it. EG did really badly, again, and I can't help but feel that the team house is not paying for itself. Of course when you go to EG's coverage of the event, they point to having "solid results overall," but in reality, it's only ever their golden three that do well. Thanks to Idra, Huk, and Puma, EG always manages to scrape together good PR, but the results of their other players are starting to get down right disturbing: iNcontroL lost to State and Strifecro, StrifeCro lost to syckness and RuFF13, Lzgamer lost to Catz and exMaSter. Only Machine and Axslav's results are remotely explainable, with losses to Nestea, dde, Gatored, and Violet. Even with those two players though, losses to Gatored and dde when you live in a team house are hard to justify.
To be honest, if they want to justify having a team house, they need to get their shit together. While Puma and Idra seem to be practicing correctly, I can't shake the feeling that they would do well regardless of where they were living. EG needs to figure out what those two are doing right, and have everyone try to emulate it to avoid such embarrassing results. Having a team house in North America established a wonderful precedent, now they just need the results to match.
I'll be honest guys, I'm really afraid of getting flamed for this, but it's something that's concerned me for long enough that I'm just going to say it. EG did badly, and I can't help but feel that the team house is not paying for itself. Of course when you go to EG's coverage of the event, they point to having "solid results overall," but in reality, it's only ever their golden three that do well. Thanks to Idra, Huk, and Puma, EG always manages good PR, but the results of their other players are starting to get down right disturbing: iNcontroL lost to State and Strifecro, StrifeCro lost to syckness and RuFF13, Lzgamer lost to Catz and exMaSter. Only Machine and Axslav's results are remotely explainable, with losses to Nestea, dde, Gatored, and Violet. Even with those two players though, losses to Gatored and dde when you live in a team house are hard to justify.
To be honest, if they want to justify having a team house, they need to work out a better system. While Puma and Idra seem to be practicing correctly, I can't shake the feeling that they would do well regardless of where they were living. EG needs to figure out what those two are doing right, and have everyone try to emulate it to avoid poor results. Having a team house in North America established a wonderful precedent, now they just need the results to match.
The post no longer refers to EG's results at Orlando as bad, no longer accuses EG of scraping together good PR, and no longer tells EG that "they need to get their shit together."
The core problem with the entire write-up is still this: the author's thesis is that the EG house has failed, however EG's results over the last few months have been their best ever. The author obviously can't acknowledge this because his argument will no longer make any sense. Instead, he argues that because EG's non-star players weren't as successful as their star players at Providence the house must be a failure.
This is a ridiculous double standard that no other team with a house is held too. By this logic, the Slayers house must also be a failure as neither Ganzi nor Puzzle made it out of the open bracket. The entire EG section makes little logical sense and should be removed from the rest of the Providence summary.
While one can express his/her dissappointment of a team's results after having been in a team house for several months, to start insinuating it has been futile or a waste is kind of ridiculous. I expected the lesser players of the EG house to post better results than they have, but that doesn't mean the house has all been for naught and that they have not benefitted from it already, and it doesn't mean they won't benefit from it in the future.
Also, the topic seems kind of forced in there, it's a post about MLG, I don't see the proper relevance needed for it to be put in there, that's just me though. For him to be able to post that opinion as a member of the TL staff I completely and utterly agree with.
On November 29 2011 02:37 Zinjil wrote: The Korean teams have huge rosters (except TSL) of which half or more have never showed any concrete results in GSL. Given that these houses have been established for more than a year now, is it time to begin criticizing teams like nshoseo or mvp for only sporadically producing players who can make deep runs in tournaments?
on the current roster of mvp, there is only one who didn't manage to get into code A once this year (i.e. they passed the gruesome hell known as the code A qualifiers). Same can be said for nshoseo with half of the roster actually having been in code S once this year.
But there were more regular GSL seasons than mlg with Korean participation (7 to 5).
That's right along with my point. Both of those teams have put out spectacular results, nshoseo especially considering their practice location hasn't been around as long as some of the other teams in Korea.
On November 29 2011 02:38 FryktSkyene wrote: Incontrol is amazing at creating drama >.> I agree with someone that posted he over reacted. It's 1 persons opinion and the way he words his post makes it seem everyone is hating of the EG house.
Just another day is Pro Esports....
On November 29 2011 02:27 amazingxkcd wrote: Its not a question of whether Team houses are good, its more of whether those inside the team houses benefit from them. Its one thing to say that Team Houses are not helping, and its another thing to say that maybe the players are not completely utilizing the houses.
I also agree with this! I understand you starcraft is a very stressful game and you need to take breaks everyone once in a while, but when the video of the EG house appeared it showed everyone that it's a damn nice place to live (pool, other game systems[xbox,ps3,etc] and god knows what else is there but does that take away too much time from practicing? None of us will ever know how much they actually practice unless you are there, but if Incontrol says we are practicing "8-10 hours a day before big events" and then frankly they put out terrible results besides the top 3 players it makes you wonder if they are actually practicing that amount of time or if they are, if they are practicing correctly.
I don't mean to call of incontrol in this post but if you are practicing that much and still putting up very poor results your either lying about the amount of time, or your not training correctly.
so.... TL is "shitting" on EG and you call Incontrol amazing at creating drama?
They have a practise shedulde but also free time. So they aren't allowed to have a live besides sc2? Maybe they don't practise as much as maybe Slayers, but you know what? Not every player in Slayers are world class like MMA.
Did you even read anything in this thread? "TL is shitting on EG" No they are not...One person is making his opinion and it just happens to be in a thread on TL, that doesn't mean all of TL agrees with it. wow.
If you read my post at all it would be pretty clear I know they work a lot (You have no idea how much time they practice unless you are there so don't act you know)
"Just happens to be a thread on TL"........are you serious? Confusedcrib is a writer for TL, not some random poster, the write-up is featured, and the language of the original article was as childishly bad as it gets. When a newspaper prominently features an article that causes outcry, both the paper and author are to be blamed.
On November 28 2011 19:41 iNcontroL wrote: pretty stupid of TL to post an article where they literally call into question making a team house.. what the fuck?
I want a vile, vVv, coL (america), Mouz, Empire etc etc etc.. house.. I want as many teams as possible taking this shit serious. Where the FUCK does TL get off calling out someone else for making a team house for themselves? A waste? It can NEVER be a waste. Even if Machine, myself, Axslav or Strife NEVER win a MLG the house is NOT a waste. It is where serious players get more serious and do the best they can to train and get better. It is where legitimate media is produced, serious practice is had and better results are posted..
I expect WAY more from TL than this shit. Everyone and their mother could call out TL for their results and their partnership/house with oGs but they don't because that would be a dumb thing to do in this community.. and yet the #1 community website goes out and calls out their rival while turning the blinders to their own crowd of players who are "carried" by players who churn out less results than the ones who carry EG... wtf.
i believe 2 other teams trained ur top 2 players....
but besides that, ppl need to realize that its an opinion article...it may have been over the line and NAzgul already said they are looking into the content of the article...so do ppl just blindly post without reading the whole article? :\
Hope u guys at TL sort this out, and TL has i think 200ish volunteers so....something will get posted wrong at least once in a great while
On November 29 2011 02:38 FryktSkyene wrote: Incontrol is amazing at creating drama >.> I agree with someone that posted he over reacted. It's 1 persons opinion and the way he words his post makes it seem everyone is hating of the EG house.
Just another day is Pro Esports....
On November 29 2011 02:27 amazingxkcd wrote: Its not a question of whether Team houses are good, its more of whether those inside the team houses benefit from them. Its one thing to say that Team Houses are not helping, and its another thing to say that maybe the players are not completely utilizing the houses.
I also agree with this! I understand you starcraft is a very stressful game and you need to take breaks everyone once in a while, but when the video of the EG house appeared it showed everyone that it's a damn nice place to live (pool, other game systems[xbox,ps3,etc] and god knows what else is there but does that take away too much time from practicing? None of us will ever know how much they actually practice unless you are there, but if Incontrol says we are practicing "8-10 hours a day before big events" and then frankly they put out terrible results besides the top 3 players it makes you wonder if they are actually practicing that amount of time or if they are, if they are practicing correctly.
I don't mean to call of incontrol in this post but if you are practicing that much and still putting up very poor results your either lying about the amount of time, or your not training correctly.
so.... TL is "shitting" on EG and you call Incontrol amazing at creating drama?
They have a practise shedulde but also free time. So they aren't allowed to have a live besides sc2? Maybe they don't practise as much as maybe Slayers, but you know what? Not every player in Slayers are world class like MMA.
Did you even read anything in this thread? "TL is shitting on EG" No they are not...One person is making his opinion and it just happens to be in a thread on TL, that doesn't mean all of TL agrees with it. wow.
If you read my post at all it would be pretty clear I know they work a lot (You have no idea how much time they practice unless you are there so don't act you know)
wait a minute. Isn't this thread made from a guy in the TL crew? Or is it MLG? And with TL shitting on EG I naturally didn't mean the players or most of the crew. It's a bad generalization on my part. I just want to say that it is super unfair against Incontrol to call him beeing godd at making drama.
And what do you mean with "..I know they work alot (You have no idea how much time they practice unless you are there so don't act you know)" Doesn't that contradict itself?
To be honest, the biased nature of TeamLiquid articles is not new. Anyone who read the TL write-up after Liquid`Zenio faced ReXMujuk in Code A knows exactly what I'm talking about. That article really made me ashamed to be a Liquid fan.
It's ridiculous how people are fast to judge something. First it's obvious that the EG team is not gona show obvious results after 3 months of team house, they need at least 6 (and maybe more considering it's a first for them). And second, EG has no obligation toward us, so why should they show us their practice schedule and everything they do. Just let them show us their results, I'm sure they are extremly motivated to show them.
But you got to let anyone say what he has to say... even if it's blatantly wrong, which is the case right now.
On November 29 2011 02:38 FryktSkyene wrote: Incontrol is amazing at creating drama >.> I agree with someone that posted he over reacted. It's 1 persons opinion and the way he words his post makes it seem everyone is hating of the EG house.
Just another day is Pro Esports....
On November 29 2011 02:27 amazingxkcd wrote: Its not a question of whether Team houses are good, its more of whether those inside the team houses benefit from them. Its one thing to say that Team Houses are not helping, and its another thing to say that maybe the players are not completely utilizing the houses.
I also agree with this! I understand you starcraft is a very stressful game and you need to take breaks everyone once in a while, but when the video of the EG house appeared it showed everyone that it's a damn nice place to live (pool, other game systems[xbox,ps3,etc] and god knows what else is there but does that take away too much time from practicing? None of us will ever know how much they actually practice unless you are there, but if Incontrol says we are practicing "8-10 hours a day before big events" and then frankly they put out terrible results besides the top 3 players it makes you wonder if they are actually practicing that amount of time or if they are, if they are practicing correctly.
I don't mean to call of incontrol in this post but if you are practicing that much and still putting up very poor results your either lying about the amount of time, or your not training correctly.
so.... TL is "shitting" on EG and you call Incontrol amazing at creating drama?
They have a practise shedulde but also free time. So they aren't allowed to have a live besides sc2? Maybe they don't practise as much as maybe Slayers, but you know what? Not every player in Slayers are world class like MMA.
Did you even read anything in this thread? "TL is shitting on EG" No they are not...One person is making his opinion and it just happens to be in a thread on TL, that doesn't mean all of TL agrees with it. wow.
If you read my post at all it would be pretty clear I know they work a lot (You have no idea how much time they practice unless you are there so don't act you know)
"Just happens to be a thread on TL"........are you serious? Confusedcrib is a writer for TL, not some random poster, the write-up is featured, and the language of the original article was as childishly bad as it gets. When a newspaper prominently features an article that causes outcry, both the paper and author are to be blamed.
Hot bid wrote in this thread (if you even looked at the other comments)
Not saying I agree or disagree with confusedcrib in his article, but let's be clear: something written on our front page is an opinion of the writer and not representative of everyone on TL or even everyone on the TL staff. We have a volunteer staff of ~200 people. Even confusedcrib said before he expected to get flamed for it, it's a relatively controversial opinion that obviously isn't some official statement by our entire site. If everyone has read our news lately there's a decent amount of op-ed-ish style opinion segments.
tldr; never take one writers opinion to represent all of TL
On November 29 2011 03:05 VirgilSC2 wrote: To be honest, the biased nature of TeamLiquid articles is not new. Anyone who read the TL write-up after Liquid`Zenio faced ReXMujuk in Code A knows exactly what I'm talking about. That article really made me ashamed to be a Liquid fan.
In that case the nature of team promotion almost excuses the biased nature of the article, as a celebration of a TL players victory is far more palatable than a poorly conceived indictment of an entire teams system.
On November 29 2011 03:05 VirgilSC2 wrote: To be honest, the biased nature of TeamLiquid articles is not new. Anyone who read the TL write-up after Liquid`Zenio faced ReXMujuk in Code A knows exactly what I'm talking about. That article really made me ashamed to be a Liquid fan.
are you talking about the TLPro article? that is the team site.
On November 29 2011 02:38 FryktSkyene wrote: Incontrol is amazing at creating drama >.> I agree with someone that posted he over reacted. It's 1 persons opinion and the way he words his post makes it seem everyone is hating of the EG house.
Just another day is Pro Esports....
On November 29 2011 02:27 amazingxkcd wrote: Its not a question of whether Team houses are good, its more of whether those inside the team houses benefit from them. Its one thing to say that Team Houses are not helping, and its another thing to say that maybe the players are not completely utilizing the houses.
I also agree with this! I understand you starcraft is a very stressful game and you need to take breaks everyone once in a while, but when the video of the EG house appeared it showed everyone that it's a damn nice place to live (pool, other game systems[xbox,ps3,etc] and god knows what else is there but does that take away too much time from practicing? None of us will ever know how much they actually practice unless you are there, but if Incontrol says we are practicing "8-10 hours a day before big events" and then frankly they put out terrible results besides the top 3 players it makes you wonder if they are actually practicing that amount of time or if they are, if they are practicing correctly.
I don't mean to call of incontrol in this post but if you are practicing that much and still putting up very poor results your either lying about the amount of time, or your not training correctly.
so.... TL is "shitting" on EG and you call Incontrol amazing at creating drama?
They have a practise shedulde but also free time. So they aren't allowed to have a live besides sc2? Maybe they don't practise as much as maybe Slayers, but you know what? Not every player in Slayers are world class like MMA.
Did you even read anything in this thread? "TL is shitting on EG" No they are not...One person is making his opinion and it just happens to be in a thread on TL, that doesn't mean all of TL agrees with it. wow.
If you read my post at all it would be pretty clear I know they work a lot (You have no idea how much time they practice unless you are there so don't act you know)
"Just happens to be a thread on TL"........are you serious? Confusedcrib is a writer for TL, not some random poster, the write-up is featured, and the language of the original article was as childishly bad as it gets. When a newspaper prominently features an article that causes outcry, both the paper and author are to be blamed.
Hot bid wrote in this thread (if you even looked at the other comments)
Not saying I agree or disagree with confusedcrib in his article, but let's be clear: something written on our front page is an opinion of the writer and not representative of everyone on TL or even everyone on the TL staff. We have a volunteer staff of ~200 people. Even confusedcrib said before he expected to get flamed for it, it's a relatively controversial opinion that obviously isn't some official statement by our entire site. If everyone has read our news lately there's a decent amount of op-ed-ish style opinion segments.
tldr; never take one writers opinion to represent all of TL
I bolded the part where you problem occurs.
Umm, HotBid is doing his job as a leader within TL, somewhat akin to the actions of an editor on a newspaper, further reinforcing my analogy. A writer put out a bad article, someone in a position of leadership did some damage control, the world will move on. One would hope that revisions and edits when it comes to the publishing of featured write-ups will be more strict in the future, as TL is THE place to get english language Sc2 information.
On November 29 2011 03:05 VirgilSC2 wrote: To be honest, the biased nature of TeamLiquid articles is not new. Anyone who read the TL write-up after Liquid`Zenio faced ReXMujuk in Code A knows exactly what I'm talking about. That article really made me ashamed to be a Liquid fan.
In that case the nature of team promotion almost excuses the biased nature of the article, as a celebration of a TL players victory is far more palatable than a poorly conceived indictment of an entire teams system.
There's a huge difference between celebrating your players victory and celebrating his opponents defeat, and that's the key difference that writers need to consider before they post an article.
On November 29 2011 03:05 VirgilSC2 wrote: To be honest, the biased nature of TeamLiquid articles is not new. Anyone who read the TL write-up after Liquid`Zenio faced ReXMujuk in Code A knows exactly what I'm talking about. That article really made me ashamed to be a Liquid fan.
are you talking about the TLPro article? that is the team site.
Yes, I was referring to the TLPro article, however as far as I'm aware, journalism is journalism no matter where it's posted.
You guys can create all the excuses in the world, but there is still not one good example of a team house outside of Korea bringing in the same results and all those who argue for player like HuK, IdrA and PuMa. These guys have already been getting results waaaay before any EG House was assembled and they know what it actually takes to train properly.
In other words no dice. 8 to 24 months would never change this and considering guys like PuMa and HuK have always been based out of Korea you will never really get the chance to make a valid argument for such a deal.
The same could be said about the Sweden house. You need to work as a cohesive unit with your practice partners. A rival house doesn't really fit this description. Doesn't help when you have guys appearing at different events either.
There is a reason why so many go to Korea to practice.
On November 29 2011 03:05 VirgilSC2 wrote: To be honest, the biased nature of TeamLiquid articles is not new. Anyone who read the TL write-up after Liquid`Zenio faced ReXMujuk in Code A knows exactly what I'm talking about. That article really made me ashamed to be a Liquid fan.
are you talking about the TLPro article? that is the team site.
Yes, I was referring to the TLPro article, however as far as I'm aware, journalism is journalism no matter where it's posted.
Ridiculous, Team sites can be as biased as they want. You expect an unbiased account of news if you visit Complexity or EG's site? Of course not, there's a reason it's called a team site and not a news site. TL is obviously a little different because it's so popular so they are trying to police stuff on the main site but it would make sense if TLPro is totally pro-team.
Was expecting a DH write up not Providence. Still quite interesting opinions, especially the whole upsets and no names results thing.
Also it appears you're not allowed to have an opinion on one particular team without qualifying it in relation to every other SC2 team judging by eg fanboys replies in this thread. Pretty sad. Are we hounding out someone else from the SC2 esports scene because they dared share their opinion now?
On November 29 2011 02:38 FryktSkyene wrote: Incontrol is amazing at creating drama >.> I agree with someone that posted he over reacted. It's 1 persons opinion and the way he words his post makes it seem everyone is hating of the EG house.
Just another day is Pro Esports....
On November 29 2011 02:27 amazingxkcd wrote: Its not a question of whether Team houses are good, its more of whether those inside the team houses benefit from them. Its one thing to say that Team Houses are not helping, and its another thing to say that maybe the players are not completely utilizing the houses.
I also agree with this! I understand you starcraft is a very stressful game and you need to take breaks everyone once in a while, but when the video of the EG house appeared it showed everyone that it's a damn nice place to live (pool, other game systems[xbox,ps3,etc] and god knows what else is there but does that take away too much time from practicing? None of us will ever know how much they actually practice unless you are there, but if Incontrol says we are practicing "8-10 hours a day before big events" and then frankly they put out terrible results besides the top 3 players it makes you wonder if they are actually practicing that amount of time or if they are, if they are practicing correctly.
I don't mean to call of incontrol in this post but if you are practicing that much and still putting up very poor results your either lying about the amount of time, or your not training correctly.
so.... TL is "shitting" on EG and you call Incontrol amazing at creating drama?
They have a practise shedulde but also free time. So they aren't allowed to have a live besides sc2? Maybe they don't practise as much as maybe Slayers, but you know what? Not every player in Slayers are world class like MMA.
Did you even read anything in this thread? "TL is shitting on EG" No they are not...One person is making his opinion and it just happens to be in a thread on TL, that doesn't mean all of TL agrees with it. wow.
If you read my post at all it would be pretty clear I know they work a lot (You have no idea how much time they practice unless you are there so don't act you know)
"Just happens to be a thread on TL"........are you serious? Confusedcrib is a writer for TL, not some random poster, the write-up is featured, and the language of the original article was as childishly bad as it gets. When a newspaper prominently features an article that causes outcry, both the paper and author are to be blamed.
Hot bid wrote in this thread (if you even looked at the other comments)
Not saying I agree or disagree with confusedcrib in his article, but let's be clear: something written on our front page is an opinion of the writer and not representative of everyone on TL or even everyone on the TL staff. We have a volunteer staff of ~200 people. Even confusedcrib said before he expected to get flamed for it, it's a relatively controversial opinion that obviously isn't some official statement by our entire site. If everyone has read our news lately there's a decent amount of op-ed-ish style opinion segments.
tldr; never take one writers opinion to represent all of TL
I bolded the part where you problem occurs.
Umm, HotBid is doing his job as a leader within TL, somewhat akin to the actions of an editor on a newspaper, further reinforcing my analogy. A writer put out a bad article, someone in a position of leadership did some damage control, the world will move on. One would hope that revisions and edits when it comes to the publishing of featured write-ups will be more strict in the future, as TL is THE place to get english language Sc2 information.
Exactly! So lets not flip shit because some writer had a opinion and it was posted on a TL article. Because are just that, opinions and therefore not facts which mean they can be wrong or right. You don't have to come to TL for updates on Sc2 world (Though I agree it is the best and easiest place to find them)
[from the article]
I'm just going to say it. EG did badly, and I can't help but feel that the team house is not paying for itself.
At this point it's not longer TL's but an opinion article just on there thread. Which is why I don't understand why confusedcrib isn't allowed to say this (I guess he could have made it more clear that this section was an opinion section but meh to late.)
I guess it wasn't clear to everyone that it's his or her's (sorry idk) opinion and therefore doesn't rep. TL just because it's on an official thread on the website. TL shouldn't censor someones opinion just because it may not agree with the norm.
On November 29 2011 03:05 VirgilSC2 wrote: To be honest, the biased nature of TeamLiquid articles is not new. Anyone who read the TL write-up after Liquid`Zenio faced ReXMujuk in Code A knows exactly what I'm talking about. That article really made me ashamed to be a Liquid fan.
are you talking about the TLPro article? that is the team site.
Yes, I was referring to the TLPro article, however as far as I'm aware, journalism is journalism no matter where it's posted.
Ridiculous, Team sites can be as biased as they want. You expect an unbiased account of news if you visit Complexity or EG's site? Of course not, there's a reason it's called a team site and not a news site. TL is obviously a little different because it's so popular so they are trying to police stuff on the main site but it would make sense if TLPro is totally pro-team.
Yes, what I'm saying is they're welcome to be as pro-Liquid as they want, but they should really try to be less anti-Opponent. The whole clarification I'm trying to point out is that they were a little too anti-Mujuk, instead of just being more pro-Zenio. There is a big difference as to how each is perceived.
I really enjoyed the article with the exception of Rise of the "No Names" HELLO VILEILLUSION!? the 15 year old who rolled this MLG taking out VileSpanishiwa LiquidSheth among many other people eventually falling to the nerd baller HayprO!!! There wasn't even a slight mention of him T_T
I was at Providence and must say that it was a much grander event than the last time I went to a MLG, Columbus 2010. And not just because of SC2, but the production values across the board. Im a writer for SK Gaming and was there covering Halo, but it was hard to not be inticed to wonder around see what else what happening. The only thing that disappointed me was that LoL did not have its own main screen, but had to share with Call of Duty: Black Ops. Even smaller TV's stationed on the outside of the players area would have been a nice. But all and all, it was a fantasic weekend.
On November 29 2011 03:05 VirgilSC2 wrote: To be honest, the biased nature of TeamLiquid articles is not new. Anyone who read the TL write-up after Liquid`Zenio faced ReXMujuk in Code A knows exactly what I'm talking about. That article really made me ashamed to be a Liquid fan.
are you talking about the TLPro article? that is the team site.
Yes, I was referring to the TLPro article, however as far as I'm aware, journalism is journalism no matter where it's posted.
Ridiculous, Team sites can be as biased as they want. You expect an unbiased account of news if you visit Complexity or EG's site? Of course not, there's a reason it's called a team site and not a news site. TL is obviously a little different because it's so popular so they are trying to police stuff on the main site but it would make sense if TLPro is totally pro-team.
Yes, what I'm saying is they're welcome to be as pro-Liquid as they want, but they should really try to be less anti-Opponent. The whole clarification I'm trying to point out is that they were a little too anti-Mujuk, instead of just being more pro-Zenio. There is a big difference as to how each is perceived.
I'm saying they can play down the opponent's if they want, just shouldn't shit on them completely. How can they be pro-Zenio but not anti-Mujuk while still delivering quality content?
If you dissect each article you'll find someone who would be offended with how shit is presented. If we cut out any bias, then we'd be left with nothing, which I don't think anyone wants.
People complaining about the TLPro site = Stupid, that's a hype site for a team, it will never be critical, nor should it be expected to. The part in question, while no doubt is an opinion piece, is still part of an overall TL editorial, and should be held to such standards. The edit went along way to helping that, it changed it from what looked like an openly aggressive forum post to a more considered write up, with only a few words changed. However, its still a questionable move, and also flat out wrong in my opinion. Its funny that despite dropping out of the the absolute top level of competition for months, Idra returns to spectacular after going into the team house. And DeMuslim improved HUGELY, becoming the best ladder player outside of Korea for a long period. And yet that is ignored? Silly stuff.
Just to let people know, I'm in a class right now, but will be responding to all of the criticism later (in about an hour). And Im glad that the article inspired a lot of real discussion, even above some of the flaming.
On November 28 2011 19:41 iNcontroL wrote: pretty stupid of TL to post an article where they literally call into question making a team house.. what the fuck?
I want a vile, vVv, coL (america), Mouz, Empire etc etc etc.. house.. I want as many teams as possible taking this shit serious. Where the FUCK does TL get off calling out someone else for making a team house for themselves? A waste? It can NEVER be a waste. Even if Machine, myself, Axslav or Strife NEVER win a MLG the house is NOT a waste. It is where serious players get more serious and do the best they can to train and get better. It is where legitimate media is produced, serious practice is had and better results are posted..
I expect WAY more from TL than this shit. Everyone and their mother could call out TL for their results and their partnership/house with oGs but they don't because that would be a dumb thing to do in this community.. and yet the #1 community website goes out and calls out their rival while turning the blinders to their own crowd of players who are "carried" by players who churn out less results than the ones who carry EG... wtf.
This, a thousand times over. I won't lose any respect for Team Liquid the TEAM, but the website/staff sorta lost some points on this one. It's super ignorant of them. There's SO many parrallels between EG and TL at this point, that are the exact same things the OP is whining about in EG. Only having a few of your players currently doing super well? Check. Adding in new, Korean players, who then are on the top of your performers? Check. Having the players producing less results still stick it out like a boss and train their hearts out? Check.
How can the OP not see the correlations? Fuck, these team houses ARE working. Idra has become such a macro god, that even the likes of BOMBER are afraid to go into a long game with him, and instead push for early wins. When the top Korean Terrans in the world are afraid to stand and bang with you, you're doing something fucking right. And where has Idra been living and training?
Heaven forbid that making a teamhouse doesn't make all your players immediate champions. Look at half the houses in Korea? MVP, TSL, Prime? Where are their results? They're all decent players, but each team only has a couple that are dominant.
Herp Derp, OP. Herp. Derp.
This was almost the reaction I had at first upon reading the article, but after I read a few pages of posts here, including a few posts detailing how lax the EG practice house really is (apparently they don't have a coach to keep them on a strict regiment, or any in-house practice rankings to bolster the competitive environment?!) It seems to me that the EG "Team House" is more of an EG "Frat House" where everyone plays some ladder games, knocks back a few drinks, and then hit the gym.
Yeah I read those too! I love reading about my life and how it actually is from people who have no idea!
LOL
Bad response. Instead of using sarcasm you could have explained what the actual circumstances are. Would have been more effective if you want to resolve this situation. But of course being snarky is more fun
On November 29 2011 02:38 FryktSkyene wrote: Incontrol is amazing at creating drama >.> I agree with someone that posted he over reacted. It's 1 persons opinion and the way he words his post makes it seem everyone is hating of the EG house.
Just another day is Pro Esports....
On November 29 2011 02:27 amazingxkcd wrote: Its not a question of whether Team houses are good, its more of whether those inside the team houses benefit from them. Its one thing to say that Team Houses are not helping, and its another thing to say that maybe the players are not completely utilizing the houses.
I also agree with this! I understand you starcraft is a very stressful game and you need to take breaks everyone once in a while, but when the video of the EG house appeared it showed everyone that it's a damn nice place to live (pool, other game systems[xbox,ps3,etc] and god knows what else is there but does that take away too much time from practicing? None of us will ever know how much they actually practice unless you are there, but if Incontrol says we are practicing "8-10 hours a day before big events" and then frankly they put out terrible results besides the top 3 players it makes you wonder if they are actually practicing that amount of time or if they are, if they are practicing correctly.
I don't mean to call of incontrol in this post but if you are practicing that much and still putting up very poor results your either lying about the amount of time, or your not training correctly.
so.... TL is "shitting" on EG and you call Incontrol amazing at creating drama?
They have a practise shedulde but also free time. So they aren't allowed to have a live besides sc2? Maybe they don't practise as much as maybe Slayers, but you know what? Not every player in Slayers are world class like MMA.
Did you even read anything in this thread? "TL is shitting on EG" No they are not...One person is making his opinion and it just happens to be in a thread on TL, that doesn't mean all of TL agrees with it. wow.
If you read my post at all it would be pretty clear I know they work a lot (You have no idea how much time they practice unless you are there so don't act you know)
"Just happens to be a thread on TL"........are you serious? Confusedcrib is a writer for TL, not some random poster, the write-up is featured, and the language of the original article was as childishly bad as it gets. When a newspaper prominently features an article that causes outcry, both the paper and author are to be blamed.
Hot bid wrote in this thread (if you even looked at the other comments)
Not saying I agree or disagree with confusedcrib in his article, but let's be clear: something written on our front page is an opinion of the writer and not representative of everyone on TL or even everyone on the TL staff. We have a volunteer staff of ~200 people. Even confusedcrib said before he expected to get flamed for it, it's a relatively controversial opinion that obviously isn't some official statement by our entire site. If everyone has read our news lately there's a decent amount of op-ed-ish style opinion segments.
tldr; never take one writers opinion to represent all of TL
I bolded the part where you problem occurs.
Umm, HotBid is doing his job as a leader within TL, somewhat akin to the actions of an editor on a newspaper, further reinforcing my analogy. A writer put out a bad article, someone in a position of leadership did some damage control, the world will move on. One would hope that revisions and edits when it comes to the publishing of featured write-ups will be more strict in the future, as TL is THE place to get english language Sc2 information.
Exactly! So lets not flip shit because some writer had a opinion and it was posted on a TL article. Because are just that, opinions and therefore not facts which mean they can be wrong or right. You don't have to come to TL for updates on Sc2 world (Though I agree it is the best and easiest place to find them)
I'm just going to say it. EG did badly, and I can't help but feel that the team house is not paying for itself.
At this point it's not longer TL's but an opinion article just on there thread. Which is why I don't understand why confusedcrib isn't allowed to say this (I guess he could have made it more clear that this section was an opinion section but meh to late.)
I guess it wasn't clear to everyone that it's his or her's (sorry idk) opinion and therefore doesn't rep. TL just because it's on an official thread on the website. TL shouldn't censor someones opinion just because it may not agree with the norm.
Thats all I got! :D
Saying "I" somewhere in the body does not give a writer free license to say whatever they want without consequence or harsh response, or at least it shouldnt. The "EG (apart from Idra, huk, and puma) where you at" portion of the writeup does not match the tone of the rest of the article, which is (and should be) a celebration of the event instead of an untimely, out-of-place hatchet piece on the bottom half of another team's roster.
On November 29 2011 03:05 VirgilSC2 wrote: To be honest, the biased nature of TeamLiquid articles is not new. Anyone who read the TL write-up after Liquid`Zenio faced ReXMujuk in Code A knows exactly what I'm talking about. That article really made me ashamed to be a Liquid fan.
are you talking about the TLPro article? that is the team site.
Yes, I was referring to the TLPro article, however as far as I'm aware, journalism is journalism no matter where it's posted.
i am sorry man but, really? wow
to call out TL.net on bias while refering to matchday-article@team site is just so wrong, that i dont even know where to start. if anything, it shows your bias (against TL)
On November 29 2011 02:38 FryktSkyene wrote: Incontrol is amazing at creating drama >.> I agree with someone that posted he over reacted. It's 1 persons opinion and the way he words his post makes it seem everyone is hating of the EG house.
Just another day is Pro Esports....
On November 29 2011 02:27 amazingxkcd wrote: Its not a question of whether Team houses are good, its more of whether those inside the team houses benefit from them. Its one thing to say that Team Houses are not helping, and its another thing to say that maybe the players are not completely utilizing the houses.
I also agree with this! I understand you starcraft is a very stressful game and you need to take breaks everyone once in a while, but when the video of the EG house appeared it showed everyone that it's a damn nice place to live (pool, other game systems[xbox,ps3,etc] and god knows what else is there but does that take away too much time from practicing? None of us will ever know how much they actually practice unless you are there, but if Incontrol says we are practicing "8-10 hours a day before big events" and then frankly they put out terrible results besides the top 3 players it makes you wonder if they are actually practicing that amount of time or if they are, if they are practicing correctly.
I don't mean to call of incontrol in this post but if you are practicing that much and still putting up very poor results your either lying about the amount of time, or your not training correctly.
so.... TL is "shitting" on EG and you call Incontrol amazing at creating drama?
They have a practise shedulde but also free time. So they aren't allowed to have a live besides sc2? Maybe they don't practise as much as maybe Slayers, but you know what? Not every player in Slayers are world class like MMA.
Did you even read anything in this thread? "TL is shitting on EG" No they are not...One person is making his opinion and it just happens to be in a thread on TL, that doesn't mean all of TL agrees with it. wow.
If you read my post at all it would be pretty clear I know they work a lot (You have no idea how much time they practice unless you are there so don't act you know)
"Just happens to be a thread on TL"........are you serious? Confusedcrib is a writer for TL, not some random poster, the write-up is featured, and the language of the original article was as childishly bad as it gets. When a newspaper prominently features an article that causes outcry, both the paper and author are to be blamed.
Hot bid wrote in this thread (if you even looked at the other comments)
Not saying I agree or disagree with confusedcrib in his article, but let's be clear: something written on our front page is an opinion of the writer and not representative of everyone on TL or even everyone on the TL staff. We have a volunteer staff of ~200 people. Even confusedcrib said before he expected to get flamed for it, it's a relatively controversial opinion that obviously isn't some official statement by our entire site. If everyone has read our news lately there's a decent amount of op-ed-ish style opinion segments.
tldr; never take one writers opinion to represent all of TL
I bolded the part where you problem occurs.
Umm, HotBid is doing his job as a leader within TL, somewhat akin to the actions of an editor on a newspaper, further reinforcing my analogy. A writer put out a bad article, someone in a position of leadership did some damage control, the world will move on. One would hope that revisions and edits when it comes to the publishing of featured write-ups will be more strict in the future, as TL is THE place to get english language Sc2 information.
Exactly! So lets not flip shit because some writer had a opinion and it was posted on a TL article. Because are just that, opinions and therefore not facts which mean they can be wrong or right. You don't have to come to TL for updates on Sc2 world (Though I agree it is the best and easiest place to find them)
[from the article]
I'm just going to say it. EG did badly, and I can't help but feel that the team house is not paying for itself.
At this point it's not longer TL's but an opinion article just on there thread. Which is why I don't understand why confusedcrib isn't allowed to say this (I guess he could have made it more clear that this section was an opinion section but meh to late.)
I guess it wasn't clear to everyone that it's his or her's (sorry idk) opinion and therefore doesn't rep. TL just because it's on an official thread on the website. TL shouldn't censor someones opinion just because it may not agree with the norm.
Thats all I got! :D
Saying "I" somewhere in the body does not give a writer free license to say whatever they want without consequence or harsh response, or at least it shouldnt. The "EG (apart from Idra, huk, and puma) where you at" portion of the writeup does not match the tone of the rest of the article, which is (and should be) a celebration of the event instead of an untimely, out-of-place hatchet piece on the bottom half of another team's roster.
To be fair it does say before the whole thing "I'll be honest guys, I'm really afraid of getting flamed for this," so I think he knew what was going to happen (or at least a little bit) but yeah I agree kind of. Like I said if it was made more clear that it's an opinion piece that I don't think there would have a been a problem. Then again, TL is like drama central so who knows.
On November 28 2011 19:52 Phenrock wrote: Wasn't there a Redbull LAN not long ago that promoted training, which also included some liquid players? I'm pretty sure everyone that attended agreed that the event was a success to some degree. However White-ra said the event was too short and that people were only getting the benefits of working and training together towards the end. Imagine that as a team training house? hmm....
Interestingly enough, most of the players that attended RBL have actually fallen off a bit, especially Bomber. Two days of training just isn't enough to make someone much better or worse.
HotBid and others have summed up most of the problems with the EG portion nicely. It's apparent that their house actually has made an impact on some of the players. HuK and Puma's stays were so brief that it'd be unfair for anyone, besides those two alone, to comment on how it helped them but IdrA's mentality has completely changed and he's become incredibly productive again. I haven't watched much of iNc, Strifecro or Machine, but Demuslim's recent results speak for themselves and Axlsav definitely appears to be improving.
I think like FXOBoss said, there's still some value to questioning the idea and how it can be improved. The FXO house didn't take off at all and the Sweden house didn't produce many positive results. And on the flip side, this past MLG and many other tournaments, have been witness to the success of many players without team houses or much sponsor support. What else needs to be done to improve the benefit of team houses? Is it worth the cost right now if it's not done right?
EDIT: Also one note for the end: 'plethora' does not mean a lot of something. It means an excess, as in there are too many and it's detrimental.
"A plethora of butter in the recipe" means there's too much butter and it's ruining the recipe. "There's a plethora of chocolate chips in this cookie" is just an impossibility.
Here is something I do not understand. Many of the people defending the EG House have mentioned that the EG players are improving, and I think that is undeniable. But are they improving faster than they would be without the house? Are they improving at a greater rate such that there is a marked difference between where they are now and where they would be without the house? I think the point of that section of the article was that it doesn't seem to be the case.
Of course Incontrol is going to be better than he was before the EG house since he has been practicing for 3 months. Incontrol was also better in May than he was in March, 3 months later into a year that had nothing to do with a team house. Maybe the section of the article was written prematurely, since 3 months is a very short time to review whether or not a team house has had any effect. Maybe the question is impossible to ask since we do not have 2 Incontrols, one in a team house and one without a team house. But I do not see why it is wrong to ask the question. Has the team house been more effective than if they had not been in a team house?
See, people keep on bringing up Demuslim as if the team house somehow made him way better, but as far as I know (I could be wrong here) Demuslim has always been a good player, he just went through some injuries and wasn't able to practice as much as he would like, and perhaps went into a mental funk due to the inability to focus on the game as much as he would like. Are people really trying to say that without the team house Demuslim wouldn't have been a good player? Because I don't think that is true.
On November 28 2011 19:52 Phenrock wrote: Wasn't there a Redbull LAN not long ago that promoted training, which also included some liquid players? I'm pretty sure everyone that attended agreed that the event was a success to some degree. However White-ra said the event was too short and that people were only getting the benefits of working and training together towards the end. Imagine that as a team training house? hmm....
Interestingly enough, most of the players that attended RBL have actually fallen off a bit, especially Bomber. Two days of training just isn't enough to make someone much better or worse.
HotBid and others have summed up most of the problems with the EG portion nicely. It's apparent that their house actually has made an impact on some of the players. HuK and Puma's stays were so brief that it'd be unfair for anyone, besides those two alone, to comment on how it helped them but IdrA's mentality has completely changed and he's become incredibly productive again. I haven't watched much of iNc, Strifecro or Machine, but Demuslim's recent results speak for themselves and Axlsav definitely appears to be improving.
I think like FXOBoss said, there's still some value to questioning the idea and how it can be improved. The FXO house didn't take off at all and the Sweden house didn't produce many positive results. And on the flip side, this past MLG and many other tournaments, have been witness to the success of many players without team houses or much sponsor support. What else needs to be done to improve the benefit of team houses? Is it worth the cost right now if it's not done right?
I think this is an interesting idea to talk about. Unfortunately, a lot of it will necessarily just be speculation, as only the teams proper know how much money they put into the house and how they measure what they're getting out.
For example, the EG Lair doubles as both a training house and a marketing tool for their sponsors.
Another thing I wonder is if the idea of Team Houses supercharging your practice is completely mythical. Foreigners have learned to thrive off of finding practice partners from all over the world from wherever they themselves are in the world. Does living in the same house as their practice partners actually help them that much? And what if their preferred practice partners don't actually live in the same house?
You can always point to the Korean pro houses as models of success, but several Code S players practice from their homes. When pros talk about how great it is to live in a team house, they usually just talk about the benefits of practicing with certain awesome players -- ie, just having good practice partners, which is, again, something you can get from just playing from your basement.
Maybe team houses aren't that big of a deal. Either way, I do think that EG has been performing better since they started theirs (look at team leagues.)
On November 29 2011 03:43 MCDayC wrote: People complaining about the TLPro site = Stupid, that's a hype site for a team, it will never be critical, nor should it be expected to.
On November 29 2011 03:46 Linwelin wrote: Wait people complaining that TLPro website is Liquid biased? That made my day
On November 29 2011 03:05 VirgilSC2 wrote: To be honest, the biased nature of TeamLiquid articles is not new. Anyone who read the TL write-up after Liquid`Zenio faced ReXMujuk in Code A knows exactly what I'm talking about. That article really made me ashamed to be a Liquid fan.
are you talking about the TLPro article? that is the team site.
Yes, I was referring to the TLPro article, however as far as I'm aware, journalism is journalism no matter where it's posted.
i am sorry man but, really? wow
to call out TL.net on bias while refering to matchday-article@team site is just so wrong, that i dont even know where to start. if anything, it shows your bias (against TL)
I apologize if I wasn't clear before, but the point I was trying to make is not that the site is too biased towards Liquid, but rather the piece I referred to was a little too harsh on Zenio's opponent.
The difference between 'Zenio's opponent Mujuk wasn't very good and plays poor mech Terran, Zenio rolled him ezpz' and 'During his first GSL showing as a Liquid player, Zenio got a chance to showcase what, in his opinion, is his best matchup. Zenio knew his opponent would attempt a Mech approach to combat him, and was able to formulate a precise method to dissect his play' is actually quite large, and yet they both get the message across that "Yay, Zenio beat his first round opponent!"
This is really silly. And I mean really silly. I'm disappointed that people can't see the obvious nuances between being a hater and being a critic. I'm especially disappointed that people think that the TL writing staff has some kind of axe to grind against EG in our front page content. That's completely nonsense, being a fan of one team or an anti-fan of another is not a pre-requisite to being on the writing staff, and if you think so, you're actually just 100% factually incorrect.
Confusedcrib expressed an opinion. Whether you think it's right or not is up to you. But it's simply an opinion from someone who has put in the time and effort to be able to express it in this post.
Also VirgilSC2, I can't even begin to grasp how you've missed the important distinction between TeamLiquid.net, a news and community site that aims for accuracy and impartiality, and TeamLiquidPro.com, a website designed to post only news about TLAF-Liquid`. You seem vaguely aware of this, yet unable to process why it matters.
You've made it more clear now, but that' a separate issue, with nothing to do with this post. And quite frankly, MujuK really was quite awful, although you're entitled to disagree.
On November 29 2011 04:29 tree.hugger wrote: And quite frankly, MujuK really was quite awful, although you're entitled to disagree.
I would agree that MujuK's play was less than stellar, however I think it's important to note that he's a player not on a Pro team, he's the first member from his clan (as far as I'm aware) to qualify for the GSL, and he was already thrown up against a (former) Code S Zerg. From a journalistic perspective, it just makes more sense in my mind to approach it a little less critical of MujuK's play.
On November 29 2011 04:29 tree.hugger wrote: And quite frankly, MujuK really was quite awful, although you're entitled to disagree.
I would agree that MujuK's play was less than stellar, however I think it's important to note that he's a player not on a Pro team, he's the first member from his clan (as far as I'm aware) to qualify for the GSL, and he was already thrown up against a (former) Code S Zerg. From a journalistic perspective, it just makes more sense in my mind to approach it a little less critical of MujuK's play.
But the point of TeamLiquidPro isn't unbiased journalism.
Good pictures. Not a fan of the article. First off the portion that's just shitting on EG for absolutely no reason. How can you really just come out and go "yeah well EG basicly sucks and shouldn't have gotten that team house it's a waste." When they've only had it for 3 or so months now? That's really not enough time to see a whole lot of change. And so far EG has still done better than TL, so if you question that wouldn't you have to question TLs choices as well in order to not write a completely biased article?
Other than that, The upsets and "rise of the no names" is really off.
How can you really say that hero or ganzi over puzzle is a big upset? Or that oz over ganzi or MC over MVP or puma over losira/bomber or leenock over MMA or upsets? Let alone "big upsets?" They are all basicly on the same level, that's not an upset. The only real upsets you mentioned are naniwa winning vs nestea/mvp, and gatored winning vs ganzi.
On the no names, really a lot of those people aren't complete no names, and some of them were the favored to win over the "named" players anyway. Honestly I don't think anyone in the right mind would think that destiny would beat ostojiy. I'm pretty sure that ruff has proven himself better than strifecro in the past, as well as dde has proven himself better than machine before.
On November 29 2011 04:29 tree.hugger wrote: And quite frankly, MujuK really was quite awful, although you're entitled to disagree.
I would agree that MujuK's play was less than stellar, however I think it's important to note that he's a player not on a Pro team, he's the first member from his clan (as far as I'm aware) to qualify for the GSL, and he was already thrown up against a (former) Code S Zerg. From a journalistic perspective, it just makes more sense in my mind to approach it a little less critical of MujuK's play.
But the point of TeamLiquidPro isn't unbiased journalism.
I see right through your icon changing shenanigans.
I understand that, I was merely stating my opinion.
On November 29 2011 04:29 tree.hugger wrote: And quite frankly, MujuK really was quite awful, although you're entitled to disagree.
I would agree that MujuK's play was less than stellar, however I think it's important to note that he's a player not on a Pro team, he's the first member from his clan (as far as I'm aware) to qualify for the GSL, and he was already thrown up against a (former) Code S Zerg. From a journalistic perspective, it just makes more sense in my mind to approach it a little less critical of MujuK's play.
But the point of TeamLiquidPro isn't unbiased journalism.
On November 29 2011 04:29 tree.hugger wrote: And quite frankly, MujuK really was quite awful, although you're entitled to disagree.
I would agree that MujuK's play was less than stellar, however I think it's important to note that he's a player not on a Pro team, he's the first member from his clan (as far as I'm aware) to qualify for the GSL, and he was already thrown up against a (former) Code S Zerg. From a journalistic perspective, it just makes more sense in my mind to approach it a little less critical of MujuK's play.
He plays bad, why is it wrong to call it like it is? Why should it be sugar coated so no one can possibly be offended and no one's feelings are hurt? They didn't slam him for paragraphs on end, it was a very tame article stating the fact that he is really bad right now, and you agree that that's the truth.
You know who's writing a great piece about his heroic struggle as david against goliath vs a former Code S player? Well, no one because his team doesn't have journalists, but if they did they'd write about it.
What's interesting to consider is what if the EG article was about a slumping Korean team, or a slumping European team? Is it controversial because it hits so close to home? IMO it's because EG has one of the bigger personalities in the NA and SC2 scene, and when they boast it carries a lot of weight, so its much more heavy when they post not-so stellar results, especially when you hear a lot of hype surrounding the team house almost every week from player PR. I feel like it's not an appropriate article since it actually hits on the hype and PR around the team house (you hear about it and SEE it on SotG every week) rather than its function. We didn't discuss much about the EU team house or other team houses since they were not built around a similar around of hype.
On November 29 2011 04:29 tree.hugger wrote: Confusedcrib expressed an opinion. Whether you think it's right or not is up to you. But it's simply an opinion from someone who has put in the time and effort to be able to express it in this post.
I have no problem respecting a well-argued opinion that differs from mine. However, the problem is that his argument doesn't hold up to even basic scrutiny (see my two earlier posts).
I question how much time and effort he actually put into the post. The original unedited post reads like it was written in about 5 minutes. In fact, the meme picture of Artosis directly above it makes it seem like it was copy-and-pasted from a 4chan board. Opinion piece or not, this is not something I'd expect to see on the front page of TL.
On November 29 2011 04:29 tree.hugger wrote: Confusedcrib expressed an opinion. Whether you think it's right or not is up to you. But it's simply an opinion from someone who has put in the time and effort to be able to express it in this post.
I have no problem respecting a well-argued opinion that differs from mine. However, the problem is that his argument doesn't hold up to even basic scrutiny (see my two earlier posts).
I question how much time and effort he actually put into the post. The original unedited post reads like it was written in about 5 minutes. In fact, the meme picture of Artosis directly above it makes it seem like it was copy-and-pasted from a 4chan board. Opinion piece or not, this is not something I'd expect to see on the front page of TL.
Are you seriously implying that Confusedcrib didn't put a lot of effort into writing this article?
On November 29 2011 04:55 shindigs wrote: What's interesting to consider is what if the EG article was about a slumping Korean team, or a slumping European team? Is it controversial because it hits so close to home? IMO it's because EG has one of the bigger personalities in the NA and SC2 scene, and when they boast it carries a lot of weight, so its much more heavy when they post not-so stellar results, especially when you hear a lot of hype surrounding the team house almost every week from player PR. I feel like it's not an appropriate article since it actually hits on the hype and PR around the team house (you hear about it and SEE it on SotG every week) rather than its function. We didn't discuss much about the EU team house or other team houses since they were not built around a similar around of hype.
I think this is actually an amazing point. And I for one appreciate the author at the least poking the team house with a journalistic stick, albeit, posting it in a semi related article. I'm gonna be so happy when genuine strong foreign talent practices as hard as the koreans, and the results (not wins or losses-- THE GAMES) show it. The best example was last nights GSL games. You can say + Show Spoiler +
IMMVP
lost the set, but can you say he's not playing up to par? I don't care if players show bad results, but if they show good play, I'm likely to be a fan.
JP is clearly behind this article, it was all done to generate publicity for the next episode of SotG which HAPPENS to include both TL and EG players on a regular basis. Coincidence? I think not. If you want to point the blame for this at anyone, look no further than JP McDaniel and as an extension, MLG. ... ... ... Kidding.
On November 29 2011 04:29 tree.hugger wrote:Confusedcrib expressed an opinion. Whether you think it's right or not is up to you. But it's simply an opinion from someone who has put in the time and effort to be able to express it in this post.
As Nazgul* and Hot_Bid have mentioned, there is a time and place for negative articles towards one team who actually had a pretty good MLG. I read all the TL articles and expect mostly positive and well-thought-out articles. This is the first time I've been severely disappointed in both the opinion AND the underlying reasoning of a section of an article.
Additionally, confusedcrib shows throughout his section that he has next to no understanding of the North American scene. Heck, I don't even watch the minor NA tournaments and I know all about State, dde, and others. They're pretty common names and definitely have the potential to take games and even series (Best of 3s are so volatile) off some of the higher level foreigners.
The underlying problems with the logic in the EG Team House section are massive, but let me hit on another I don't think is mentioned. Korean team houses usually have several players who you don't even know about unless you visit their TLPD. Nobody talks about them, nobody even notices when they switch teams or do anything of note. They're the ones who lose in the first round of Code A qualifiers to "no names".
And lastly, there are only a limited amount of places for players to succeed in tournaments, especially ones dominated by Koreans. No team will ever have its entire roster or even most of its roster dominate a tournament where other teams are equally represented. That's because every team has 1-3 great players, and those 1-3 great players from other teams will shut down all the other non-great players in the tournament. Where do you think the EG team would have ended up if they hadn't lost to these "disgusting" "no name" players? Probably one round higher.
On November 29 2011 05:21 GwSC wrote: JP is clearly behind this article, it was all done to generate publicity for the next episode of SotG which HAPPENS to include both TL and EG players on a regular basis. Coincidence? I think not. If you want to point the blame for this at anyone, look no further than JP McDaniel and as an extension, MLG. ... ... ... Kidding.
I expect Alex Garfield and Milkis on the next SOTG to comment on this!!!
and beating tyler, agh, drewbie, machine in groups and then select and kiwikaki is the best run in MLG this season? huh?? Good thing that prize doesn't mean anything because this is a huge headscratcher... I guess he was trying to go against the grain here?
Nice read... but if State, Gatored, Ostojiy & DDE are 'no names' i really don't understand this scene (or americans) and there over-appreciation for personalities.
It's a good thing the number of weekly cups in NA is increasing, so more people can appreciate the talent pool that's actually out there across the atlantic, instead of bitching about "undeserved"/underperforming players in the MLG pools.
On November 29 2011 04:29 tree.hugger wrote: This is really silly. And I mean really silly. I'm disappointed that people can't see the obvious nuances between being a hater and being a critic. I'm especially disappointed that people think that the TL writing staff has some kind of axe to grind against EG in our front page content. That's completely nonsense, being a fan of one team or an anti-fan of another is not a pre-requisite to being on the writing staff, and if you think so, you're actually just 100% factually incorrect.
I'd argue that people are realizing the difference between being a hater and being a critic, and they are correctly noting that the section of the article that is being debated is hard to place on one side of the line or the other. Some of the language in the original version wasn't so different than a post that you would find in the recesses of some LR thread with red text underneath. Starting an article with "I'm probably going to get flamed for this, but" requires a lot of reason and thought to justify, rather than just kind of plopping an opinion down and waiting for the fallout.
I just wanted to chime in among the swarm of negativity to say that I liked the article personally. I think people are being unnecessarily harsh on confusedcrib, who I felt wrote a relatively good article. Is it fair/unfair to expect more results from the teamhouse? Maybe, maybe not, but comments from some players how they rarely actually play together and the fact that only a small percentage of the team has seen any increased success (and in Idra's case, it was as much of a mental thing) means that the article makes sense to me.
EG is my favorite team in general, but that doesn't mean it's impossible to be critical of aspects of it.
On November 28 2011 22:50 Liquid`Nazgul wrote: We want TL to have opinion pieces in our news. However this does not mean that we want to use the term opinion piece as an excuse for posting content that probably should not have been posted. We're internally reviewing the article currently, mostly with regards to how we will do things in the future.
Ostojoy taking out Destiny isn't much of a "Rise of the no-names" the Guys got a similar and surprisingly similar win/ratio sitting near the Top of NA Ladder as Violet... in GrandMaster
Great-write up lots of some-what unknowns though taking out big names..
I like that they are allowing independent/differing opinions to write articles...!
I think the best way to go about this is just to clarify a few things about my beliefs.
I think that having team houses in North America is awesome, and would love if every single team could afford one.
The article was simply meant to question if having the team house was paying for itself in terms of player improvement, not if EG should close it's doors. I never once suggest that they should close it down, I'm only suggesting that they are not improving at a rate that the community expected, and they need to figure out why they are not improving.
I was not questioning the players only on results, that would be stupid, someone like catz got knocked out by Nestea and MKP and obviously doesn't deserve to be scrutinized for his play. That being said, it wasn't just the results, it was the players who EG lost to that was concerning, they were all players with much less resources behind them.
iNcontroL's responses are kind of weird, I have the feeling that we could have a civilized debate if I just talked to him. I can't help but feel that those posts were just a surge of emotional response and should probably be treated as such.
In all, I was just hoping to raise the point that EG's players are consistently under-performing from the expectations set by both the community and themselves since establishing a team house. EG's players have lost to other players with much less in the way of resources behind them. This begs the question, are the extra resources being allocated to EG's players paying off? We don't live in a fantasy world where the team houses are free, so what results should we expect? My wording was harsh, but that was very deliberate. EG is in a position where they need to figure out why they are not improving and they need to get it fixed, otherwise their huge investment into a team house, while good for the scene in general, doesn't really seem to be paying off.
I tend to agree with people though that this may not have been the best place for such criticism. It's just that the results of Providence are directly related to this criticism being valid, so it would be equally weird to put it anywhere else.
On a side note, I'm very sorry that I didn't mention you Illusion, when I was browsing the list of players that Slasher released you were on the Korean list so I mistakenly assumed that you were just someone from Korea I had never heard of. I later realized that you were apart of Vile during the tournament, but in the editing process I forgot to add you in to the piece about Spanishiwa, Gatored, and dde. I am truly sorry about that, and will be sure this mistake does not happen in the future.
P.S. I am actually a big fan of EG. I was watching iNcontroL yesterday apparently moments before he read this article I went to sleep, and I'm currently watching Huk. I've also written things in the past that many people have flamed for being excessively biased to both iNcontroL and Idra.
am i the only one to think this article was unfairly biased agianst EG.. so a couple players are in a slump on EG the writer uses that as an excuse to call for an end to their practice with starcraft titans idra machine axslave and puma... sounds more like jealousy then anything to me tbhimho. i remember a long time ago liquid tyler was in a slump and now look at him exceding expectations. let strifecrow spread hi wings ims sure hell turn a few heads next MLG.
Should Team Evil Geniuses Have Established a North American Team House?
I'll be honest guys, I'm really afraid of getting flamed for this, but it's something that's concerned me for long enough that I'm just going to say it. EG did badly, and I can't help but feel that the team house is not paying for itself. Of course when you go to EG's coverage of the event, they point to having "solid results overall," but in reality, it's only ever their golden three that do well. Thanks to Idra, Huk, and Puma, EG always manages good PR, but the results of their other players are starting to get down right disturbing: iNcontroL lost to State and Strifecro, StrifeCro lost to syckness and RuFF13, Lzgamer lost to Catz and exMaSter. Only Machine and Axslav's results are remotely explainable, with losses to Nestea, dde, Gatored, and Violet. Even with those two players though, losses to Gatored and dde when you live in a team house are hard to justify.
To be honest, if they want to justify having a team house, they need to work out a better system. While Puma and Idra seem to be practicing correctly, I can't shake the feeling that they would do well regardless of where they were living. EG needs to figure out what those two are doing right, and have everyone try to emulate it to avoid poor results. Having a team house in North America established a wonderful precedent, now they just need the results to match.
[/center]
All they do is ladder and custom games with each other. If they want to get better they need to start doing things that you will only find in a house. I live in my parents house and ladder+custom games are just as easy to do. They need to have an organized system with a coach, a higher hour per day maybe something like 10-12 hours, a white board with an organised schedule and calender and organised practice sessions with new strats.
Incontrol has now surpassed Totalbiscuit (of the past, he's calmed down some since) in being the most touchy and reactive community figure.
This is an opinion I have expressed many times, but I feel it needs to be said. Chill, man. It may seem like it, but a lot of people get attacked in this community. For fuck's sake, if Idra is handling himself better than you you're doing something wrong.
On November 29 2011 06:52 Redmark wrote: Incontrol has now surpassed Totalbiscuit (of the past, he's calmed down some since) in being the most touchy and reactive community figure.
This is an opinion I have expressed many times, but I feel it needs to be said. Chill, man. It may seem like it, but a lot of people get attacked in this community. For fuck's sake, if Idra is handling himself better than you you're doing something wrong.
Well, if your Team and your Team's effort is officially attacked by an other "Team" (""because it's not the players themself) than you have to react. He can't just make some assumptions without any inside information. If it would have been a random james McSmithy that would be another story.
On November 29 2011 06:47 confusedcrib wrote: I think the best way to go about this is just to clarify a few things about my beliefs.
I think that having team houses in North America is awesome, and would love if every single team could afford one.
The article was simply meant to question if having the team house was paying for itself in terms of player improvement, not if EG should close it's doors. I never once suggest that they should close it down, I'm only suggesting that they are not improving at a rate that the community expected, and they need to figure out why they are not improving.
I was not questioning the players only on results, that would be stupid, someone like catz got knocked out by Nestea and MKP and obviously doesn't deserve to be scrutinized for his play. That being said, it wasn't just the results, it was the players who EG lost to that was concerning, they were all players with much less resources behind them.
iNcontroL's responses are kind of weird, I have the feeling that we could have a civilized debate if I just talked to him. I can't help but feel that those posts were just a surge of emotional response and should probably be treated as such.
In all, I was just hoping to raise the point that EG's players are consistently under-performing from the expectations set by both the community and themselves since establishing a team house. EG's players have lost to other players with much less in the way of resources behind them. This begs the question, are the extra resources being allocated to EG's players paying off? We don't live in a fantasy world where the team houses are free, so what results should we expect? My wording was harsh, but that was very deliberate. EG is in a position where they need to figure out why they are not improving and they need to get it fixed, otherwise their huge investment into a team house, while good for the scene in general, doesn't really seem to be paying off.
I tend to agree with people though that this may not have been the best place for such criticism. It's just that the results of Providence are directly related to this criticism being valid, so it would be equally weird to put it anywhere else.
On a side note, I'm very sorry that I didn't mention you Illusion, when I was browsing the list of players that Slasher released you were on the Korean list so I mistakenly assumed that you were just someone from Korea I had never heard of. I later realized that you were apart of Vile during the tournament, but in the editing process I forgot to add you in to the piece about Spanishiwa, Gatored, and dde. I am truly sorry about that, and will be sure this mistake does not happen in the future.
P.S. I am actually a big fan of EG. I was watching iNcontroL yesterday apparently moments before he read this article I went to sleep, and I'm currently watching Huk. I've also written things in the past that many people have flamed for being excessively biased to both iNcontroL and Idra.
All good, would help if my TLPD name wasn't vileIllusion. Illusion is taken by zenexicecream though.. oh well
On November 28 2011 16:53 Sadistx wrote: I'm sad that you guys didn't mention this guy, who, while not winning Providence, did at 15 years of age, come 24th in the most stacked MLG to date.
None of these results are a surprise, except maybe Forbs breaking out. Everyone else who won was pretty much already the favorite, if you follow the scene semi-closely.
Do not agree at all. And most of them aren't just top ladder either, they are on sponsored teams too, so "rise of the nonames" is quite inappropriate.
same concern very disappointed illusion wasn't mention..... I don't think ruff should be listed
On November 28 2011 19:41 iNcontroL wrote: pretty stupid of TL to post an article where they literally call into question making a team house.. what the fuck?
I want a vile, vVv, coL (america), Mouz, Empire etc etc etc.. house.. I want as many teams as possible taking this shit serious. Where the FUCK does TL get off calling out someone else for making a team house for themselves? A waste? It can NEVER be a waste. Even if Machine, myself, Axslav or Strife NEVER win a MLG the house is NOT a waste. It is where serious players get more serious and do the best they can to train and get better. It is where legitimate media is produced, serious practice is had and better results are posted..
I expect WAY more from TL than this shit. Everyone and their mother could call out TL for their results and their partnership/house with oGs but they don't because that would be a dumb thing to do in this community.. and yet the #1 community website goes out and calls out their rival while turning the blinders to their own crowd of players who are "carried" by players who churn out less results than the ones who carry EG... wtf.
This, a thousand times over. I won't lose any respect for Team Liquid the TEAM, but the website/staff sorta lost some points on this one. It's super ignorant of them. There's SO many parrallels between EG and TL at this point, that are the exact same things the OP is whining about in EG. Only having a few of your players currently doing super well? Check. Adding in new, Korean players, who then are on the top of your performers? Check. Having the players producing less results still stick it out like a boss and train their hearts out? Check.
How can the OP not see the correlations? Fuck, these team houses ARE working. Idra has become such a macro god, that even the likes of BOMBER are afraid to go into a long game with him, and instead push for early wins. When the top Korean Terrans in the world are afraid to stand and bang with you, you're doing something fucking right. And where has Idra been living and training?
Heaven forbid that making a teamhouse doesn't make all your players immediate champions. Look at half the houses in Korea? MVP, TSL, Prime? Where are their results? They're all decent players, but each team only has a couple that are dominant.
Herp Derp, OP. Herp. Derp.
This was almost the reaction I had at first upon reading the article, but after I read a few pages of posts here, including a few posts detailing how lax the EG practice house really is (apparently they don't have a coach to keep them on a strict regiment, or any in-house practice rankings to bolster the competitive environment?!) It seems to me that the EG "Team House" is more of an EG "Frat House" where everyone plays some ladder games, knocks back a few drinks, and then hit the gym.
Yeah I read those too! I love reading about my life and how it actually is from people who have no idea!
LOL
I am a fan of yours. And from listening to you for a long time on SotG and ITG etc i have come to respect your ability to articulate and argue a point of view. While your point in this thread is valid and requires discussion, the fact that you have successfully acted like a child in 3/4 posts in this thread is incredibly frustrating.
You have a point. So express it; without being an asshole, or rude or inflammatory. I get the post made you mad, but it would be silly to think that at least some people in the community weren't thinking it? Noone is saying don't have the house, but maybe the way the house is run could be re-evaluated?
Then again, any insight into how the house is actually run, sort of a day in the life of the EG house would be great.
On November 29 2011 06:47 confusedcrib wrote: I think the best way to go about this is just to clarify a few things about my beliefs.
[list]
[*] I think that having team houses in North America is awesome, and would love if every single team could afford one.
[*] The article was simply meant to question if having the team house was paying for itself in terms of player improvement, not if EG should close it's doors. I never once suggest that they should close it down, I'm only suggesting that they are not improving at a rate that the community expected, and they need to figure out why they are not improving.
Sorry but "Should Team Evil Geniuses Have Established a North American Team House?" suggests that you're questioning the existence of an EG team house. If you're questioning if it should have been opened in the first place, then gives a number of examples of its' 'failure' while leaving all positive effects out, then one obviously assumes you indirectly suggest they might be better off closing it down.
On November 29 2011 06:47 Juanald wrote: am i the only one to think this article was unfairly biased agianst EG.. so a couple players are in a slump on EG the writer uses that as an excuse to call for an end to their practice with starcraft titans idra machine axslave and puma... sounds more like jealousy then anything to me tbhimho. i remember a long time ago liquid tyler was in a slump and now look at him exceding expectations. let strifecrow spread hi wings ims sure hell turn a few heads next MLG.
Yes, you are the only one. You are also posting on the first page of the thread, and there have been no other replies discussing the EG section of the article. It's a good thing you pointed out this bias that no one else saw, otherwise we would not be able to have a discussion about it...
Seriously. You don't have to read every post. You can just skim here and there, and you would see that your point has already been articulated much better by other people. I'm not saying you shouldn't contribute, but starting off with "am I the only one" looks incredibly bad when you are posting on page 17 of a thread that has been having this discussion for the last 15 or so pages.
On November 29 2011 06:47 confusedcrib wrote: I think the best way to go about this is just to clarify a few things about my beliefs.
I think that having team houses in North America is awesome, and would love if every single team could afford one.
The article was simply meant to question if having the team house was paying for itself in terms of player improvement, not if EG should close it's doors. I never once suggest that they should close it down, I'm only suggesting that they are not improving at a rate that the community expected, and they need to figure out why they are not improving.
I was not questioning the players only on results, that would be stupid, someone like catz got knocked out by Nestea and MKP and obviously doesn't deserve to be scrutinized for his play. That being said, it wasn't just the results, it was the players who EG lost to that was concerning, they were all players with much less resources behind them.
iNcontroL's responses are kind of weird, I have the feeling that we could have a civilized debate if I just talked to him. I can't help but feel that those posts were just a surge of emotional response and should probably be treated as such.
In all, I was just hoping to raise the point that EG's players are consistently under-performing from the expectations set by both the community and themselves since establishing a team house. EG's players have lost to other players with much less in the way of resources behind them. This begs the question, are the extra resources being allocated to EG's players paying off? We don't live in a fantasy world where the team houses are free, so what results should we expect? My wording was harsh, but that was very deliberate. EG is in a position where they need to figure out why they are not improving and they need to get it fixed, otherwise their huge investment into a team house, while good for the scene in general, doesn't really seem to be paying off.
I tend to agree with people though that this may not have been the best place for such criticism. It's just that the results of Providence are directly related to this criticism being valid, so it would be equally weird to put it anywhere else.
On a side note, I'm very sorry that I didn't mention you Illusion, when I was browsing the list of players that Slasher released you were on the Korean list so I mistakenly assumed that you were just someone from Korea I had never heard of. I later realized that you were apart of Vile during the tournament, but in the editing process I forgot to add you in to the piece about Spanishiwa, Gatored, and dde. I am truly sorry about that, and will be sure this mistake does not happen in the future.
P.S. I am actually a big fan of EG. I was watching iNcontroL yesterday apparently moments before he read this article I went to sleep, and I'm currently watching Huk. I've also written things in the past that many people have flamed for being excessively biased to both iNcontroL and Idra.
This response doesn't address any of the relevant criticism to your original write-up. The issue isn't that you expressed your opinion or whether or not this is the appropriate forum to do so. Furthermore, there is no need to clarify your position, I don't think anyone found it ambiguous.
The problem with your write-up is that: (i) you are quite egregious with which facts you pick and choose. Over the last few months the number of positive results for EG far exceeds the negative, yet you only focus on the negative results. (ii) The criteria you establish for the EG house to be successful is so harsh that every Korean house would be judged a failure by this standard.
Furthermore, the original post contained a factual error (you referred to EG's performance at Orlando as a bad) and childish comments (claiming that EG "always manages to scrape together good PR" and telling EG that "they need to get their shit together"). I don't take offense with your opinion, only that you argued it in such a poor and immature fashion.
On November 29 2011 03:17 fishuu wrote: Meko's CSS stuff is still badass. Love the black and white photos too, Bomber is freaking adorable in those.
Good to see my photos finally got posted and that people like em!
Bomber was surprisingly more photogenic than I'd thought he'd be. I have to say I'm not nearly as proud of those club shots as I am of my other shots, though. The lighting in there was atrocious to deal with :X
I respect your right to an opinion, I disagree with your opinion however. The best run at MLG was vileIllusion, Haypro's run was amazing, but overhyped. Illusion deserves a lot more credit. I think the EG House part is correct in some regards, but also a little harsh. I agree, the lesser players of EG need to be stepping it up, but that does not mean the house has not benefitted others. (or them for that matter) Jinro's run at MLG will always be my favorite and Leenock's the most impressive , Naniwa's was 99% 4 gate and then a few decent series against good foreigners. Leenock did it against easily 3+ of the top 10 players in the world. Some of your major upsets are incredibly incorrect, and you are missing some of the real upsets. -my opinion
On November 28 2011 19:41 iNcontroL wrote: pretty stupid of TL to post an article where they literally call into question making a team house.. what the fuck?
I want a vile, vVv, coL (america), Mouz, Empire etc etc etc.. house.. I want as many teams as possible taking this shit serious. Where the FUCK does TL get off calling out someone else for making a team house for themselves? A waste? It can NEVER be a waste. Even if Machine, myself, Axslav or Strife NEVER win a MLG the house is NOT a waste. It is where serious players get more serious and do the best they can to train and get better. It is where legitimate media is produced, serious practice is had and better results are posted..
I expect WAY more from TL than this shit. Everyone and their mother could call out TL for their results and their partnership/house with oGs but they don't because that would be a dumb thing to do in this community.. and yet the #1 community website goes out and calls out their rival while turning the blinders to their own crowd of players who are "carried" by players who churn out less results than the ones who carry EG... wtf.
This, a thousand times over. I won't lose any respect for Team Liquid the TEAM, but the website/staff sorta lost some points on this one. It's super ignorant of them. There's SO many parrallels between EG and TL at this point, that are the exact same things the OP is whining about in EG. Only having a few of your players currently doing super well? Check. Adding in new, Korean players, who then are on the top of your performers? Check. Having the players producing less results still stick it out like a boss and train their hearts out? Check.
How can the OP not see the correlations? Fuck, these team houses ARE working. Idra has become such a macro god, that even the likes of BOMBER are afraid to go into a long game with him, and instead push for early wins. When the top Korean Terrans in the world are afraid to stand and bang with you, you're doing something fucking right. And where has Idra been living and training?
Heaven forbid that making a teamhouse doesn't make all your players immediate champions. Look at half the houses in Korea? MVP, TSL, Prime? Where are their results? They're all decent players, but each team only has a couple that are dominant.
Herp Derp, OP. Herp. Derp.
The staff should be free to write what they want. Enough with the hurting esports posts.. If EG really wanted to maximise their players' potential the house would be in Korea imo.
Idra and puma were both really good before the team house came into play, the point of the op's article about it was that the lower tier of players are not getting any better at all, i'd say they are getting worse. no need to get so anal about it it's true
That's the thing though. You're expecting solid change at the highest level to happen in only a couple of months. Be realistic. There's a reason sports dynasties happen, like the Cowboys or the Bulls of the 90's. Neither one of those came about because of a couple months of hard practice. SC2 as a sport isn't even in its infancy yet, it's soooo freaking new. How on EARTH could an environment tailored to improve your play be a bad decision? It's not about TL being able to post anything. That's fine. To have a true arbiter or voice in any community it has to be third party, and even though this site is affiliated with a team, certain pockets within it may reach that, sure. But that doesn't excuse ignorance, which is what that paragraph was.
Holy shitstorm batman. I mean, seriously. They guy's not bashing. The guy's not hating. The bit about the EG house was tamer than any Live Report thread I've ever visited, not to mention the rampant player bashing that goes on on Reddit. It was a simple reflection on the results some of EG's players have been putting up. Which, quite frankly, have been rather dismal. I love iNcontrol, and Axslav, Strifeco, et al. are great players. But that the results haven't been there for them is a simple statement of fact. I could say the same for lots of players - Jinro and Tyler come to mind - but many of these seem to be in the process of addressing their practice regimen and improving once again. However, when you have these players, more than half of EG's team, who haven't been performing as well as they ought to be, given their talent, and who are all living at the team house, then either the teamhouse itself, or the way they're practicing within the teamhouse needs to be evaluated. If EG, or their players, weren't prepared to take these steps, then I'd say that they should thank Confusedcrib for bringing up the subject, because it will help their team to grow and achieve in the future.
The elephant in the room for the EG house is that aside from Puma, Idra, HuK, and Demuslim their roster has a dearth of talent and potential. I don't view EG's inability to cultivate skill from the bottom tier of the roster as an inherent training problem, rather a reflection of the talent they are working with. This is not a knock on the players as humans, solely as sc2 professionals. I rather enjoy dropping by Machines stream and on occasion will watch Incontrol.
Great write up CRIB. I agree with pretty much everything you said and pointed out. I have been waiting for someone to say what I and im sure tons of others have been thinking. Thank you!
I agree. It will be unfortunate if TL has their internal meeting and decides to put on 'kid gloves' and have each future article hand out free digital flowers and rainbows.
On November 28 2011 22:00 Rucho wrote: i STRONGLY disagree with the "bambino" award going to Naniwa.
The opponents were MUCH weaker as MLG SCII was just getting off the ground, 4gates were still very powerful, and there were little to no koreans. Naniwa pretty much won for having the best 4 gate that weekend.
This is completely different compared to Leenock's impressive domination of the best players in the world. Who WASN'T there? Clide maybe? Polt? I don't remember. The series against DRG alone was out of this world.
Thank you, This is pretty much what i got out of it.
Not to mention Leenock only "really" went 2-1 with MMA. He beat DRG in a best of 7 after coming back from being down 0-2.
I guess you can look at the Naniwa series with Leenock going 2-1 with him in the first 3 games, but that's kinda a stretch in my mind, seeing as for the best of 7 he went 4 - 1.
The way the article talked about it made it seem like, Leenock was dropping games left and right to everybody and just lucked out. When in reality only 3 players took games off him.
Honestly though in some ways coming back, from an 0-2 deficit like that vs Drg makes his run even more epic.
On November 29 2011 06:47 confusedcrib wrote: I think the best way to go about this is just to clarify a few things about my beliefs.
I think that having team houses in North America is awesome, and would love if every single team could afford one.
The article was simply meant to question if having the team house was paying for itself in terms of player improvement, not if EG should close it's doors. I never once suggest that they should close it down, I'm only suggesting that they are not improving at a rate that the community expected, and they need to figure out why they are not improving.
I was not questioning the players only on results, that would be stupid, someone like catz got knocked out by Nestea and MKP and obviously doesn't deserve to be scrutinized for his play. That being said, it wasn't just the results, it was the players who EG lost to that was concerning, they were all players with much less resources behind them.
iNcontroL's responses are kind of weird, I have the feeling that we could have a civilized debate if I just talked to him. I can't help but feel that those posts were just a surge of emotional response and should probably be treated as such.
In all, I was just hoping to raise the point that EG's players are consistently under-performing from the expectations set by both the community and themselves since establishing a team house. EG's players have lost to other players with much less in the way of resources behind them. This begs the question, are the extra resources being allocated to EG's players paying off? We don't live in a fantasy world where the team houses are free, so what results should we expect? My wording was harsh, but that was very deliberate. EG is in a position where they need to figure out why they are not improving and they need to get it fixed, otherwise their huge investment into a team house, while good for the scene in general, doesn't really seem to be paying off.
I tend to agree with people though that this may not have been the best place for such criticism. It's just that the results of Providence are directly related to this criticism being valid, so it would be equally weird to put it anywhere else.
On a side note, I'm very sorry that I didn't mention you Illusion, when I was browsing the list of players that Slasher released you were on the Korean list so I mistakenly assumed that you were just someone from Korea I had never heard of. I later realized that you were apart of Vile during the tournament, but in the editing process I forgot to add you in to the piece about Spanishiwa, Gatored, and dde. I am truly sorry about that, and will be sure this mistake does not happen in the future.
P.S. I am actually a big fan of EG. I was watching iNcontroL yesterday apparently moments before he read this article I went to sleep, and I'm currently watching Huk. I've also written things in the past that many people have flamed for being excessively biased to both iNcontroL and Idra.
This response doesn't address any of the relevant criticism to your original write-up. The issue isn't that you expressed your opinion or whether or not this is the appropriate forum to do so. Furthermore, there is no need to clarify your position, I don't think anyone found it ambiguous.
The problem with your write-up is that: (i) you are quite egregious with which facts you pick and choose. Over the last few months the number of positive results for EG far exceeds the negative, yet you only focus on the negative results. (ii) The criteria you establish for the EG house to be successful is so harsh that every Korean house would be judged a failure by this standard.
Furthermore, the original post contained a factual error (you referred to EG's performance at Orlando as a bad) and childish comments (claiming that EG "always manages to scrape together good PR" and telling EG that "they need to get their shit together"). I don't take offense with your opinion, only that you argued it in such a poor and immature fashion.
I really think there's a difference that needs to be established here. If this were an opinion piece like the "Elephant in the Room" piece a while back, with that sentence pasted everywhere about how "The opinions expressed in this article do not reflect the opinions of Teamliquid.net, its staff, or its team" we'd be handling a completely different situation.
Because looking at it from Incontrol's point of view, he just got shit on by the largest SC2 website around. He didn't just get shit on by confusedcrib. Confusedcrib just wrote it down, Teamliquid actually endorsed it by posting it without any qualifications. It even had "Teamliquid coverage" in the upper corner of the first image. The idea that it comes from Teamliquid then leads to this shitstorm, because it makes Teamliquid look hypocritical. Just because Ret, Sheth, Hero, and Haypro get back on somewhat of a role, they can start shitting on EG for subpar results? What?
I'd like to say that there just needed to be a beginning sentence about how TL doesn't support the opinion pieces, but we all know that wouldn't have worked. A beginning paragraph by anyone separate from the author saying "Hey, we don't necessarily agree." would have fixed this before it even happened.
If you guys are seriously looking at this internally, I'd say that's all you have to do. Don't put on kids gloves, let your opinion writers pull an Tastosis and call crappy play for what it is. But just be careful to make it perfectly clear that you don't necessarily support the position.
To get to the substance, though, at least the awards were playful. That whole piece on EG had rings of truth, and was in no way half as bad as the average post on the forums about the same issue, but come on. A piece on TL shitting on EG for a group of their lower rung players having subpar results? I understand that you set up the difference because EG has an American training house and TL doesn't, but it doesn't matter. EG has, objectively, gathered better results since the house opened up. Maybe not a win for every tournament, but Incontrol in particular has this different air to him. His run through the Open Bracket wasn't anything to shit on at all.
And if you want to get into it, what about every Korean house ever? They all have higher level players that outperform the rest by far and away. Are they failures? Or are they successful because they live in Korea?
I love TL loads. I have their team picture as one of the background pictures my laptop switches between. Tyler and Jinro are my favorites. I was as pumped as anyone to hear Haypro fucking legitimately beat Nestea. But you can't just turn a blind eye when shitting on a team that many have built into TL's rivals for poor results. It just doesn't look good for anyone involved.
On November 29 2011 03:17 fishuu wrote: Meko's CSS stuff is still badass. Love the black and white photos too, Bomber is freaking adorable in those.
Good to see my photos finally got posted and that people like em!
Bomber was surprisingly more photogenic than I'd thought he'd be. I have to say I'm not nearly as proud of those club shots as I am of my other shots, though. The lighting in there was atrocious to deal with :X
Those photos were seriously gorgeous! Thank you for taking them :D
I think Bomber's totally photogenic, but I'm probably biased 'cause he's my favorite ... so ... yeah :D;
After thought and discussion, I realize that section of the article was far too hasty. I've edited in a note to emphasize this is not the official opinion of TL, and that it is my fault as editor that it went out with a slant too heavy for a news piece. This should have been reviewed more carefully and been given a more fair look at the issue, this kind of cursory glance is certainly far from the kind of quality that I try to uphold when looking at events.
"To be honest, if they want to justify having a team house, they need to work out a better system. While Puma and Idra seem to be practicing correctly, I can't shake the feeling that they would do well regardless of where they were living. "
Practice is important, but when are people going to realize, the rest of EG besides Puma, Idra and Huk just lack the talent and mechanics, they would have to put in more practice than anyone else.
The only beef I have with that section of the article is that it seems out of place. I would fully support it as an editorial. EG has done a lot in taking steps to becoming one of the most powerful foreign teams in SC2. They are setting a trend in what will hopefully become a norm with other foreign teams (establishing team houses, participating in all big tournaments, etc.).
When EG players have won big games in big tournaments, EG fans have given them praise and adoration for their accomplishments. I don't think it's unfair for fans to question the development of the less successful players on the team. When you put yourself out there as they have(signing big name players, house, etc.), you open yourself up to criticism (legitimate or not). Put these less successful players on a lesser known team, and no one would care about their "sub-par" performances.
EG should be less butthurt. Unless they really step it up, I don't see anybody except the big 3 doing well next year. HuK and Puma aren't even part of the Teamhouse. So except for IdrA, what did this teamhouse do?
I think that close to everybody already talked with his friends about the poor performance these 4 players from EG have, probably laughing each time they bring up their 8-hours a day practice schedule in a teamhouse.
I hope they have a good time there, enjoy life and play SCII, but don't start claiming that the teamhouse has been a big factor on results, that would be pretty sad.
Some people don't seem to understand the effects sitting next to your teammates has, even if all their are doing is ladder, (which I don't think is true). There is a huge difference in motivation that goes on by being physically near your teammates and seeing all the practicing they are doing. It is much much easier to slack off if you are on your own but if you are slacking off in a team house you know all those eyes are on you.
There is also a degree of motivation to put out results based on the investment into the house by your team so you don't want that investment to be wasted.
I also think some people are over emphasizing the benefit of a coach. They are essentially players, and not even the best players due to how little they can practice in comparison, who help other players. This is something that teammates can do to each other. Probably the main benefit to a coach is that it is their job to do that helping so the players can spend a bit more time practicing rather than playing mini coach. For the number of people who live in the EG house I don't think a coach is that necessary.
maybe bit harsh for the people involved. but I dont think it warranted such emotional response calling it a joke and what not. If anything I think EG member did more damage to the team in this thread than the article itself, by responding in unprofessional manner. in my humble opinion.
if you want accountability from others, maybe you should be accountable for what you say too.
On November 28 2011 22:00 Rucho wrote: i STRONGLY disagree with the "bambino" award going to Naniwa.
The opponents were MUCH weaker as MLG SCII was just getting off the ground, 4gates were still very powerful, and there were little to no koreans. Naniwa pretty much won for having the best 4 gate that weekend.
This is completely different compared to Leenock's impressive domination of the best players in the world. Who WASN'T there? Clide maybe? Polt? I don't remember. The series against DRG alone was out of this world.
Thank you, This is pretty much what i got out of it.
Not to mention Leenock only "really" went 2-1 with MMA. He beat DRG in a best of 7 after coming back from being down 0-2.
I guess you can look at the Naniwa series with Leenock going 2-1 with him in the first 3 games, but that's kinda a stretch in my mind, seeing as for the best of 7 he went 4 - 1.
The way the article talked about it made it seem like, Leenock was dropping games left and right to everybody and just lucked out. When in reality only 3 players took games off him.
Honestly though in some ways coming back, from an 0-2 deficit like that vs Drg makes his run even more epic.
Once again it's about technicalities. In his run Naniwa dropped 2 games and no series. In his run leenock dropped 5 games, 1 series and nearly lost that best of 7 to get to the finals. Who the opponents were doesn't matter it's the statistical results that count and I say that as a big fan of both players.
Again I will bring up the Nestea and MVP comparison. Nestea, had a perfect gsl run in july. Gsl august MVP had a nearly perfect run against much harder opponents. We all know who had the more impressive run to thier win but in a technical sense Nestea was more dominant as he did not lose any games while MVP lost a few.
The award was not for most impressive run: Leenock has that on lock ^-^, but most dominant run which can be qualified by simply looking at the numbers.
Regardless of EG's results (which are fine by me, I think most teams have results like that...it's just most korean teams don't send their entire team to MLG so it's harder to compare). I'm just not a fan of anyone saying something like "Should EG have spent their money on something?". Well if EG has the money, why is it anyone's concern what they do with it, besides maybe sponsors? It's their money. They didn't steal it. Whether it's "justified by results" doesn't matter.
I appreciate the time that TL staff and writers put into articles, but some things are bothersome.
The "upsets" section is a bit of a reach, like Ganzi over Puzzle, and Oz over Ganzi, for example. That skill gap is not huge, nor would I call them big upsets. Puma over Bomber and Lorisa... those aren't big upsets either! Some people would favor Puma, even. I'm not even sure half of that list qualify as even minor upsets, these are top players.
I don't think players that we probably haven't heard much before (Forbs, dde, whomever) beating perennial big-name no-results pros like Machine, incontrol, Axlav, and Tyler means anything. Just that the perennial big-name no-results pros are just far behind as ever.
Also, the fantasy gg timing reference. GGing prematurely is NOT what fantasy does! When fantasy gets owned but refuses to gg and does shit like lift all of his buildings and prolong the game for extra excruciating minutes with no hope of winning, that is fantasy gg timing. What Idra does is Idra gg timing, he quits before he's even lost sometimes. They're essentially antonyms!
Nice article, but a bit too harsh on the criticism. When you know you're gonna get flamed, better be clearer on the disclaimers as guilty by association is a fair maxim.
Managing both the perception and reality is important. Throwing my own 2 cents in as well.
Big upsets? Hero over Puzzle Major over Artist Ganzi over Puzzle Oz over Ganzi MC over MVP Puma over Losira Puma over Bomber Leenock over MMA
I wouldn't consider any of them to be upsets at all. It feels like you're stretching to make the list longer by adding all of these ones.
No Names? State HeavOnEarth Gatored sycknesS Ostojiy dde
These are all fairly well known names... Seems incredibly interesting that you would find these to be "No Names"
As for the EG House section, it seems utterly ridiculous as well. It has been ~3 months since they house started up and we've already seen an improvement from most players. Sure, not all players on the team are currently dominating, but there has certainly been an improvement. Outside the "top 3" of the EG team (idra, huk, puma) there has been Machine, Axslav, StrifeCro, Demuslim have all seen improvements from my perspective. Give it time, and look at results outside of MLGs (Axslav and StrifeCro have won a few smaller tournaments recently if I remember correctly).
Take a look at other examples of people moving into team houses - Huk in the oGs/TL house? It took several months for him to show any results.
How about contrasting it with Korean pro gaming houses? You completely discredit the top three EG players by saying they were good already and they would be good without the house, and hence you amplify the negatives of the remaining team members. Korean pro houses sometimes have 10-15 or more gamers in the house yet no Korean team has 15 insanely dominant players. By your logic are these Korean team houses also complete failures that need to be reevaluated? I'm aware this is your opinion but it seems rather uninformed.
Okay enough with the negatives - I really enjoyed the rest of the article, the awards and the photos were especially awesome.
I don't understand why people are flaming the team house thing. I understand that TL needs to keep up appearances, but there was nothing unprofessional about the way the paragraph was written. It's definitely true, in addition. I don't think we've seen a substantial improvement, but even still, why are people giving so much flak to the author?
On November 28 2011 19:41 iNcontroL wrote: pretty stupid of TL to post an article where they literally call into question making a team house.. what the fuck?
I want a vile, vVv, coL (america), Mouz, Empire etc etc etc.. house.. I want as many teams as possible taking this shit serious. Where the FUCK does TL get off calling out someone else for making a team house for themselves? A waste? It can NEVER be a waste. Even if Machine, myself, Axslav or Strife NEVER win a MLG the house is NOT a waste. It is where serious players get more serious and do the best they can to train and get better. It is where legitimate media is produced, serious practice is had and better results are posted..
I expect WAY more from TL than this shit. Everyone and their mother could call out TL for their results and their partnership/house with oGs but they don't because that would be a dumb thing to do in this community.. and yet the #1 community website goes out and calls out their rival while turning the blinders to their own crowd of players who are "carried" by players who churn out less results than the ones who carry EG... wtf.
Alright, I dont want to come off like a dick, buts lets take stock of EG's player roster for a second in a non-biased and fair manner. Idra is an excellent player who EG picked up at and early stage and fostered as he developed hi SC2 career. He is not a top, if not the top, foreign Zerg and is one of the best Zergs in the world. EG deserves full credit for his development and success.
Next is Puma. Simply put, Puma is on EG because you guys have more money to toss around than TSL. Simple as that. He was good before EG, he is equally good at EG, and he will probably continue to be good for a long time, but EG did literally nothing to develop him as a player. In fact, I think its pretty safe to say that his practice regimen was better at the TSL house, as he was surrounded by players such as Trickster, Fruitdealer, Polt, and other Korean pros.
Finally, we come to Huk, perhaps even more so than Puma, Huk is an Evil Genius player because EG could outspend Liquid. Simple as that. He loved being on Liquid, but EG threw and absolutely absurd amount of money his way, so he switched teams. And thats fine. He made the smart move by doing whats financially best for him, especially in the long run. But as with Puma, EG did LITERALLY NOTHING to make Huk that player he is. Even after joining your team, he chose to spend most of his time practicing in Korea, as the practice environment there is clearly better than at the EG Lair.
Now I'm not going to talk about Demuslim, becuase to be quite honest I know nothing about him as a player, but I will touch on EG's "B-Teamers" which, as much as it breaks my heart to say it, includes you. None of Eg's other players (Machine, yourself, Axlav, Strifecro) have posted results of note against top competition, and that is simply a fact. I'm not going to do what other more aggresive people on this thread have done and state that you guys "shouldn't be considered pro gamers," because that opinion is asinine and and overstatement, but it is undeniable that neither you nor your less succesful teammates have done noteworthy things at the top level of SC2 in the last 12 months. I am trying so hard to not sound like an asshole here, but EG is currently being carried by three players, two of which they bought simply because they have a huge amount of money to pay out in salaries. So please don't flame TL over this article. Direct your hate at the writer, not the innocent team whose website this slander (and i'll admit it was slander. calling EG's house a waste was way out of line) just happened to end up.
On November 29 2011 11:16 Dhalphir wrote: Naniwa's Dallas run was impressive true, but contained ZERO Code S Koreans. Leenock stomped his way through several such players on his way.
Well yeah that's part of why Naniwa was more dominant in Dallas than Leenock was in Providence.
It's almost as if a lot of TL posters have difficulty comprehending what the award is for. This isn't the fault of the writer.
Incontrol, TL as a whole is not attacking your team. Don't play the victim card, you know full well that staff are entitled to their opinions. However, this does not mean that the paragraph about the EG house was not poorly written, unnecessary for the context of the article, or largely full of shit. It was most of those things. Take away the top three players of any team, like Hot_Bid said, and the team sucks. The bottom feeders on any team are usually as bad as another.
The real problem is that writers cannot fully disassociate themselves from representing their "employers" (I know staff here are volunteers, but just work with me here). Even on ESPN when you read an awful Timmy Tebow piece, users will lament against the writer AND ESPN every time. You can't have someone write on behalf of the website and then wash your hands of anything inflammatory they might write in major tournament summaries like this.
Opinion pieces are great. Articles like "Elephant in the room" are great. But if you stuck that piece in the middle of a GSL summary article, that would've been wrong at the time, don't you agree?
With the very first SC2 NA team house, I don't think we saw that great of results. Yeah, it's great that the house is famous to the eSports world, but I can't see EG and sponsors continuing to pay for the place after this year's results. IdrA, Huk, and PuMa have always done well, and I don't think that spending hundreds of thousands on that house (Yeah, AZ is that expensive) was worth it. Then again, we don't know the money.
Leenocktopus. <3
Grats to Leenock. GO TO SCHOOL. >///<
Huk vs. Hero rivalry? I'd love to see that, but both players are simply too friendly to start something like IdrA vs MC or MMA vs Ryung. And I'm not just saying that because I love both players and just couldn't choose between the two.
<3 SC, <3 MLG, and <3 eSports! Forever fighting. c:
On November 29 2011 11:16 Dhalphir wrote: Naniwa's Dallas run was impressive true, but contained ZERO Code S Koreans. Leenock stomped his way through several such players on his way.
Well yeah that's part of why Naniwa was more dominant in Dallas than Leenock was in Providence.
It's almost as if a lot of TL posters have difficulty comprehending what the award is for. This isn't the fault of the writer.
Yeah it's as if people don't realize that dominance means taking less losses. It's right there in the dictionary people!
On November 29 2011 11:48 BlueBoxSC wrote: Epic event, epic tournament, awesome year of SC2.
With the very first SC2 NA team house, I don't think we saw that great of results. Yeah, it's great that the house is famous to the eSports world, but I can't see EG and sponsors continuing to pay for the place after this year's results. IdrA, Huk, and PuMa have always done well, and I don't think that spending hundreds of thousands on that house (Yeah, AZ is that expensive) was worth it. Then again, we don't know the money.
Leenocktopus. <3
Grats to Leenock. GO TO SCHOOL. >///<
Huk vs. Hero rivalry? I'd love to see that, but both players are simply too friendly to start something like IdrA vs MC or MMA vs Ryung. And I'm not just saying that because I love both players and just couldn't choose between the two.
<3 SC, <3 MLG, and <3 eSports! Forever fighting. c:
I agree with what you said for the most part but just one correction: AZ real estate is actually really really cheap at the moment. That is likely one of the main reasons the team house was erected there.
On November 29 2011 12:04 courtpanda wrote: can someone explain what the controversy is over the teamhouse section? is it just too opinionated for a news piece?
On November 29 2011 11:48 BlueBoxSC wrote: I don't think that spending hundreds of thousands on that house (Yeah, AZ is that expensive) was worth it. Then again, we don't know the money.
On November 29 2011 11:48 BlueBoxSC wrote: I don't think that spending hundreds of thousands on that house (Yeah, AZ is that expensive) was worth it. Then again, we don't know the money.
They are renting.
I don't know why people think arizona is that expensive. I own a summer house in arizona and its bigger than my house in calgary and half as cheap.
On November 29 2011 09:26 heyoka wrote: After thought and discussion, I realize that section of the article was far too hasty. I've edited in a note to emphasize this is not the official opinion of TL, and that it is my fault as editor that it went out with a slant too heavy for a news piece. This should have been reviewed more carefully and been given a more fair look at the issue, this kind of cursory glance is certainly far from the kind of quality that I try to uphold when looking at events.
Gonna quote this and say that we added some words to clarify the EG part of the article.
You know, this wouldn't have been a problem at all, if there was no team associated with teamliquid, or if TL had been hadn't been TL at all, but some other massive fansite..
It's kind of a shame you can't have anything official on TL without it gettin' a huge "TL's team" thoughts sticker on it.
This EG/TL mini-controversy kind of reflects the dilemma that TL faces, as a team, community site and major news source (Kennigit spoke to it quite elegantly on the last SOTG).
It's rare in other sports for a team to shoulder the responsibility of marketing themselves AND generating content AND being the 'arbiters' of objective discourse. Actually it's less than rare. It doesn't happen.
While I can sympathize with EG's/InControl's annoyance, if you imagine that TL is just another sports media site (like ESPN) these kind of op-ed pieces are par for the course. People can and will say worses thing about EG.
The whole EG team house point is ridiculous, they've posted better results and are getting better, surprise surprise incontrol didn't magically become Flash in 3 months! off with all of their heads.
Grow up and stop senseless bashing. this shit has pissed me off even more than the rest of my shitty day.
Thanks heyoka for (hopefully) clearing up the discrepancies about the EG article and clearing up that TL doesn't exactly agree with the opinions posted by its writers, though maybe they should have had that disclaimer in the beginning, considering confusedcrib himself realized that he was about to be flamed.
On the other hand, I really enjoyed the Leenoctopus and the photos ^^
How the heck is the The Great Bambino Milgie for Most Dominant Performance given to Naniwa in MLG Dallas 2011. Naniwa run through the open bracket to the finals was amazing but you forgotten to include that there was no Koreans in his path. The open bracket in Providence is way more stacked and tougher than in MLG Dallas 2011. Although Leenock did lose to DRG in the winners bracket, he crushes through Idra,Huk,MMA,MVP,Boxer,DRG and beat Naniwa in the finals which make him the only player coming out of the losers bracket to win the championship .To me that is way more impressive than Naniwa runs in MLG Dallas 2011.
Putting the drama aside the EG house point is really interesting.
I mean, 3 months is very early to expect results, especially since EG will be writing the rulebook for non-korean team houses. When they put the thing together I wasn't expecting good results until 2012 at the earliest. The improvement to Idra's mindset has been vastly beneficial which I think(?) can be attributed to the team house.
As someone pointed out, where is the coach? Do they need one? How much do they practise against each other vs watch each others play and suggest ways to improve? We actually know very little about how they are running things and what kind of "team" they are. All I really know at this point is that they read a book.
I remember Idra commenting that he and demuslim don't play vs each other much since they run into each other in tournaments which seems kind of weird. I would think they would take a "we may run into each other, but lets try and both improve as much as we can and see what happens on the day" approach over a "but we may run into each other and then you'll know my supa gosu strat!" type thing.
As for people expecting incontrol to suddenly become gosu, how is that meant to happen? As far as I'm aware axslav is the only other protoss there to work with. Huk is in Korea most of the time, which means incontrol is left to his own devices when looking to improve his play.
IMpression of this MLG HerO Gaming face is epic, imposing, intimidating. Sheth need to lose some weight ( Not being rude, but I support the idea of healty living helps out greatly performing at anything) SjoW forehead is getting, long TLO beard is Awesome HuK Love you canadian bro
Ya im the kind of guy who comments on pic and not the actual event...
On November 28 2011 16:39 heyoka wrote: Only Machine and Axslav's results are remotely explainable, with losses to Nestea, dde, Gatored, and Violet. Even with those two players though, losses to Gatored and dde when you live in a team house are hard to justify.
Who is GoSu.Gatored?
Perform well once, and it could be a fluke, do it twice, and you deserve recognition. At IEM New York, Gatored was able to take out Strelok, DongRaeGu, and oGsTop. At MLG Providence, Gatored took out Axslav and Ganzi, only losing to ViOlet and Leenock, two of the best players at the tournament. The guy is seriously becoming a PvT sniper, with his major tournament wins against Terran including Qxc, Strelok, Top, and now Ganzi. This guy is quickly gaining my attention for his results, and it would be a smart move to pay him more attention in the future.
My favourite part. I originally read this thread when it was much smaller and was pretty outraged at the bias in the article. Since then TL has distanced themselves from the opinion and it seems to have calmed down.
I still find it hilarious they criticise someone for losing to gatored and in the very next paragraph talk about how amazing gatored it.
On November 29 2011 11:48 BlueBoxSC wrote: I don't think that spending hundreds of thousands on that house (Yeah, AZ is that expensive) was worth it. Then again, we don't know the money.
They are renting.
I don't know why people think arizona is that expensive. I own a summer house in arizona and its bigger than my house in calgary and half as cheap.
Pretty pathetic idea to put in the piece about the EG team house...
They're the only team outside of Korea with a house so they have no model to work off and are testing it from scratch. If their players and team are happy with it then surely they alone can justify if it is worth it, I think it's important to note that EG make more money than other teams and therefore can afford this expenditure.
On top of this it allows them to give PuMa and HuK a place to stay while they are in the states, as an added extra LzGamer doesn't stay in the house and yet you bring his results in to question also?
Just.... poor journalism and completely out of place when considered with the theme of the overall article, would anyone have written this after Orlando where EG took 1st, 4th and 7th without having DeMusliM available.
Here's their team results, please show me any non Korean team that comes close...
What if I'd written a piece on DreamHack which half way through the article said "Finally a decent TL result" and went on to say utter crap that since Jinro won MLG Dallas nearly a year ago nobody currently a part of TL has done anything up to their level and multiple players of theirs have fallen off their peaks.
Would that get published?
It's all very well to put these editor and review notes as hindsight but if you state this is not the place for it, that it should be developed more than one paragraph and shouldn't have been put up in it's current form if it had been reviewed fully then why on earth have you not edited out the entire section?
EDIT: I've just gone and read over the last article you wrote (about the previous MLG) and in there you say the "winners" are EG and the "losers" every non-EG north american player. Have some consistency! Unless you fully expect EG to win every event where one of their players show up to you can't truthfully hold the opinions you do in both articles, can you?
On November 29 2011 14:01 FakeDeath wrote: How the heck is the The Great Bambino Milgie for Most Dominant Performance given to Naniwa in MLG Dallas 2011. Naniwa run through the open bracket to the finals was amazing but you forgotten to include that there was no Koreans in his path. The open bracket in Providence is way more stacked and tougher than in MLG Dallas 2011. Although Leenock did lose to DRG in the winners bracket, he crushes through Idra,Huk,MMA,MVP,Boxer,DRG and beat Naniwa in the finals which make him the only player coming out of the losers bracket to win the championship .To me that is way more impressive than Naniwa runs in MLG Dallas 2011.
It's all about the definition of "dominant".
Let's say that through some twist of fate, MVP ended up in a Bronze-only tournament. MVP would absolutely DOMINATE (<--notice that word) that tournament. Would it be impressive? Not really, a ton of people could do it. But it would be extremely dominant.
Now let's say that MMA went through GSL Code S, dropped a game in the group stage, and went 2-1, 3-2, 3-1, and 4-1 with a lot of close games even in his wins to take the championship. Was it dominant? NO! Was it impressive, absolutely.
The fictitious MVP run through a Bronze tournament would be more dominant than the MMA run through Code S. However, the MMA run through Code S was a lot more impressive.
Likewise, the Naniwa run through Dallas was more dominant than Leenock who dropped a set and a few other games, but the Leenock run was more impressive because it was against much harder opponents. Hope that clears it up.
The parts about the EG team house seemed way out of place for the article, just show horned in there. The pictures though are pure awesome. The black and whites are great, thanks a lot for those!
I can see why the part about the team-house was controversial, however its also seems to be true. For a team-house the results of most players seem to be lacking. I wonder how everyone would have performed if they were just at their own home and i cant stop to think it would be at the same level.
However i do think its not 100% fault of players, but its just the lack of a full-time coach. It was the same for the house in Sweden which seemed to be more of a dorm then an actual pro-gamer house.
Best thing which could come out of it is to motivate EG to prove everyone wrong by showing up with results (besides the usual Puma,Huk,Idra ones)
What is it with you guys not able to have two opinions on one issue ? Changing the news article about the EG teamhouse is pathetic ! Come on grow a backbone... I can´t understand why commentators and news writer have to love every tournament, every player and every team. It`s not true and it`s dishonest. I don`t want flamewars and i am not talking about the fans i am talking about beeing honest and writing articles once in a while to criticize something that is worth criticizing. And don`t say or write something that is the lowest common denominator (sorry for my bad english hope u understand what I mean), that everybody can agree on like nestea is awesome.
Criticizing something is not bad for SC2 or esports it will help it grow and that`s what commentators and news writers should do. Maybe they are not neutral enough. Commentators are involved with many tournaments and teams - TL news writer are member auf the SC2 Team. Maybe everybody is to close so nobody wants to upset anyone else.
Do you guys really think that if there are disagreements on anything (other then one unit is too strong) the community would fall into pieces ?
I don`t, but most officials do ? (tournament, commentators, teams, newswriters ... ) or just don`t want to be the "bad" one who breaks the "harmony".... that`s very sad and counterproductive...
The problem with Teamhouses discussed here is actually not the problem with Teamhouses.
The vibe that I get from EG's "not bought allready good" lineup is... There was never a true reason to pick any of them or I seem to have totally missed their "dominating play" during beta. Incontrol got the community guy thing and so on going for him and that alone is probably worth it... But the others?
Liquid did it similar.. But starting off with a Teamhouse, even when it ended up as being a failure for most of them, gave them a kickstart to some decent/very good results early on and made every one of them competetive (at least at the top foreigner level). Not all of them have won tourneys, but they for sure looked better than their EG counterparts (at least I feel that way).
So the actual question is: Can a Teamhouse make top tier pros out of low tier pros? At the moment the answer is? Can you create a "true" progamer out of an above average player? Can you overcome "talent" with "effort"? At the moment it seems like: No, you can't.
Btw: The only guy that got "blind picked" by a truly big team, due to former success whiteout showing results in beta, that was "worth" it, was Ret.
Love the whole thing (specially the pics). My 2 cents on the EG thing, its not that we shouldn't discuss it but that as not necessarily rival team but an opposing team should not be talking about other teams "lack of results". While TL is a community SC2 site its also a pro team with its own players so its kinda a catch 22 how they should talk about it as a community site but not as a rival team. Know what I mean?(if this is making any sense) They do a really good job tho despite that fact so props to them but they need to walk that fine line as a community site, just the fact that they really try to be careful what they say but try not to shy away either is such a difficult balancing act that frankly I'm amazed at how good they are at it. Personally I have my opinions about EG also but this isn't the proper forum for it so I'll just keep them to myself for now.
I have a small gallery of images from MLG Providence up on my Google+. Unfortunately, I lost several hundred photos for some reason (the card got messed up T_______T), but here are some more pictures for your enjoyment!
I would like to personally apologize to the following people:
Evil Geniuses, specifically iNcontroL, Axslav, Strifecro, Idra, Huk, Puma, Machine, Demuslim, LZGamer and SirScoots for putting what was an unsubstantiated personal thought onto such a high pedestal as TeamLiquid news
dde, Spanishiwa, State, Ostojiy, Syckness, Agh, HeavenOnearth, Binski, Ruff13, and Forbs for understating their level of skill in referring to them as "No Names," they are some of my favorite players, and I made extremely poor word choice.
Haypro and Illusion for leaving out their amazing tournament runs
Hot_Bid and Nazgul, for tarnishing TeamLiquid's name and calling the quality of our news into question
Heyoka and WaxAngel, whose editing skills are what makes TL news as good as it is, and have the right to expect more from their writers
All of the writers and mods for TeamLiquid, in producing poor quality content I brought a bad name to the amazing quality content that you all make our standard.
Statement:
Upon further reflection, I owe everyone here an apology. When I originally posted the article, I knew there was something wrong with it, and chose to ignore it over Thanksgiving weekend rather than giving it the extra time it needed.That article was not worthy of TeamLiquid's news, and did not have anywhere close to the amount of research behind it that it should have. I put everyone here in a terrible situation diplomatically and personally, inciting anger from both fans of TeamLiquid and other professionals in the industry. I'm especially sorry to Heyoka, for he should be able to trust the content coming out of writers to be good, and I fell vastly short of expectations. The article was clearly below the standards held by both TeamLiquid and myself, and I will do my best to insure that every article I write in the future gets the scrutiny and attention to detail that TeamLiquid precedents. I hope I have written enough good content in the past that my name as a writer was not completely destroyed by this incident; I did not intend to get my name in the community by screwing up so badly, I am truly sorry.
I liked most of the article but half of what is said is complete shit. Should put a big disclaimer at the top saying that this is all your opinion and most of it is complete rubbish. 1 Article about how EG sucks ( should have been about Team Liquids bottom of the barrel players ) 2 articles about how certain players should not have won... wtf. Could you guys be more negative? I'm sad to see this on the front of TL. Thanks for all the awesome pics and stats tho. Should have just posted those and left your opinion out.
On November 30 2011 02:02 confusedcrib wrote: I would like to personally apologize to the following people:
Evil Geniuses, specifically iNcontroL, Axslav, Strifecro, Idra, Huk, Puma, Machine, Demuslim, LZGamer and SirScoots for putting what was an unsubstantiated personal thought onto such a high pedestal as TeamLiquid news
dde, Spanishiwa, State, Ostojiy, Syckness, Agh, HeavenOnearth, Binski, Ruff13, and Forbs for understating their level of skill in referring to them as "No Names," they are some of my favorite players, and I made extremely poor word choice.
Haypro and Illusion for leaving out their amazing tournament runs
Hot_Bid and Nazgul, for tarnishing TeamLiquid's name and calling the quality of our news into question
Heyoka and WaxAngel, whose editing skills are what makes TL news as good as it is, and have the right to expect more from their writers
All of the writers and mods for TeamLiquid, in producing poor quality content I brought a bad name to the amazing quality content that you all make our standard.
Statement:
Upon further reflection, I owe everyone here an apology. When I originally posted the article, I knew there was something wrong with it, and chose to ignore it over Thanksgiving weekend rather than giving it the extra time it needed.That article was not worthy of TeamLiquid's news, and did not have anywhere close to the amount of research behind it that it should have. I put everyone here in a terrible situation diplomatically and personally, inciting anger from both fans of TeamLiquid and other professionals in the industry. I'm especially sorry to Heyoka, for he should be able to trust the content coming out of writers to be good, and I fell vastly short of expectations. The article was clearly below the standards held by both TeamLiquid and myself, and I will do my best to insure that every article I write in the future gets the scrutiny and attention to detail that TeamLiquid precedents. I hope I have written enough good content in the past that my name as a writer was not completely destroyed by this incident; I did not intend to get my name in the community by screwing up so badly, I am truly sorry.
I'm not going to lie, I was literally about to hop on the bandwagon of, "what the hell? How can you put opinion in for half of your article and allow that in the TL news article?"
Then I noticed this post and I stopped and realized, you made a mistake, you're human, it happens. It was Thanksgiving break, no one ever wants to actually do work over the break and thus puts out what is necessary of them and may not in fact be their best work.
I do thoroughly appreciate how you state the individual players you directly would apologize to. Cheers for at least realizing your mistake and owning up to it. If only more individuals in life could do the same thing.
On November 30 2011 02:02 confusedcrib wrote: I would like to personally apologize to the following people:
Evil Geniuses, specifically iNcontroL, Axslav, Strifecro, Idra, Huk, Puma, Machine, Demuslim, LZGamer and SirScoots for putting what was an unsubstantiated personal thought onto such a high pedestal as TeamLiquid news
dde, Spanishiwa, State, Ostojiy, Syckness, Agh, HeavenOnearth, Binski, Ruff13, and Forbs for understating their level of skill in referring to them as "No Names," they are some of my favorite players, and I made extremely poor word choice.
Haypro and Illusion for leaving out their amazing tournament runs
Hot_Bid and Nazgul, for tarnishing TeamLiquid's name and calling the quality of our news into question
Heyoka and WaxAngel, whose editing skills are what makes TL news as good as it is, and have the right to expect more from their writers
All of the writers and mods for TeamLiquid, in producing poor quality content I brought a bad name to the amazing quality content that you all make our standard.
Statement:
Upon further reflection, I owe everyone here an apology. When I originally posted the article, I knew there was something wrong with it, and chose to ignore it over Thanksgiving weekend rather than giving it the extra time it needed.That article was not worthy of TeamLiquid's news, and did not have anywhere close to the amount of research behind it that it should have. I put everyone here in a terrible situation diplomatically and personally, inciting anger from both fans of TeamLiquid and other professionals in the industry. I'm especially sorry to Heyoka, for he should be able to trust the content coming out of writers to be good, and I fell vastly short of expectations. The article was clearly below the standards held by both TeamLiquid and myself, and I will do my best to insure that every article I write in the future gets the scrutiny and attention to detail that TeamLiquid precedents. I hope I have written enough good content in the past that my name as a writer was not completely destroyed by this incident; I did not intend to get my name in the community by screwing up so badly, I am truly sorry.
Don't worry about it. Your human (or are you!?) You admitted you messed up then you manned up and apologized. Far as I'm concerned all is forgiven. Please keep up the work.
On November 30 2011 02:02 confusedcrib wrote: I would like to personally apologize to the following people:
Evil Geniuses, specifically iNcontroL, Axslav, Strifecro, Idra, Huk, Puma, Machine, Demuslim, LZGamer and SirScoots for putting what was an unsubstantiated personal thought onto such a high pedestal as TeamLiquid news
dde, Spanishiwa, State, Ostojiy, Syckness, Agh, HeavenOnearth, Binski, Ruff13, and Forbs for understating their level of skill in referring to them as "No Names," they are some of my favorite players, and I made extremely poor word choice.
Haypro and Illusion for leaving out their amazing tournament runs
Hot_Bid and Nazgul, for tarnishing TeamLiquid's name and calling the quality of our news into question
Heyoka and WaxAngel, whose editing skills are what makes TL news as good as it is, and have the right to expect more from their writers
All of the writers and mods for TeamLiquid, in producing poor quality content I brought a bad name to the amazing quality content that you all make our standard.
Statement:
Upon further reflection, I owe everyone here an apology. When I originally posted the article, I knew there was something wrong with it, and chose to ignore it over Thanksgiving weekend rather than giving it the extra time it needed.That article was not worthy of TeamLiquid's news, and did not have anywhere close to the amount of research behind it that it should have. I put everyone here in a terrible situation diplomatically and personally, inciting anger from both fans of TeamLiquid and other professionals in the industry. I'm especially sorry to Heyoka, for he should be able to trust the content coming out of writers to be good, and I fell vastly short of expectations. The article was clearly below the standards held by both TeamLiquid and myself, and I will do my best to insure that every article I write in the future gets the scrutiny and attention to detail that TeamLiquid precedents. I hope I have written enough good content in the past that my name as a writer was not completely destroyed by this incident; I did not intend to get my name in the community by screwing up so badly, I am truly sorry.
Don't worry about it. Your human (or are you!?) You admitted you messed up then you manned up and apologized. Far as I'm concerned all is forgiven. Please keep up the work.
Amen. It was a learning experience, and TL as a site will only get better because of it.
Confusedcrib step on a lot of toes and hurt a lot of misplaced egos, but his analysis was pretty fair. HuK and Puma are not living in the gaming house, so they are out of the picture but for the others, it is hard to tell how they were helped by the pro-house training . Idra is just as good as some months ago, with the same strengths and the same weaknesses. Machine seems to have become a little better, at least, that 's how i feel. But what about the rest? LzGamer seems to have retired, and Axslav, Strifecro and specially Incontrol don't seem top show progress. Demuslim is a constant disappointment. When you claim to be the biggest powerhouse of foreign starcraft as EG, it is normal to ask questions about the shallowness of their roster.
On November 30 2011 02:02 confusedcrib wrote: I would like to personally apologize to the following people:
Evil Geniuses, specifically iNcontroL, Axslav, Strifecro, Idra, Huk, Puma, Machine, Demuslim, LZGamer and SirScoots for putting what was an unsubstantiated personal thought onto such a high pedestal as TeamLiquid news
dde, Spanishiwa, State, Ostojiy, Syckness, Agh, HeavenOnearth, Binski, Ruff13, and Forbs for understating their level of skill in referring to them as "No Names," they are some of my favorite players, and I made extremely poor word choice.
Haypro and Illusion for leaving out their amazing tournament runs
Hot_Bid and Nazgul, for tarnishing TeamLiquid's name and calling the quality of our news into question
Heyoka and WaxAngel, whose editing skills are what makes TL news as good as it is, and have the right to expect more from their writers
All of the writers and mods for TeamLiquid, in producing poor quality content I brought a bad name to the amazing quality content that you all make our standard.
Statement:
Upon further reflection, I owe everyone here an apology. When I originally posted the article, I knew there was something wrong with it, and chose to ignore it over Thanksgiving weekend rather than giving it the extra time it needed.That article was not worthy of TeamLiquid's news, and did not have anywhere close to the amount of research behind it that it should have. I put everyone here in a terrible situation diplomatically and personally, inciting anger from both fans of TeamLiquid and other professionals in the industry. I'm especially sorry to Heyoka, for he should be able to trust the content coming out of writers to be good, and I fell vastly short of expectations. The article was clearly below the standards held by both TeamLiquid and myself, and I will do my best to insure that every article I write in the future gets the scrutiny and attention to detail that TeamLiquid precedents. I hope I have written enough good content in the past that my name as a writer was not completely destroyed by this incident; I did not intend to get my name in the community by screwing up so badly, I am truly sorry.
You know what, it bothers me that you feel like you have to apologize for having an opinion. There's a place for 'objective' journalism, but there is also a place for informed opinion pieces.
I personally did not consider your article malicious or 'controversial' at all, and if it provokes discussion on a discussion board then it's done it's job.
My problem with it is that it singled out EG without addressing other under-performing players on other teams. Where's the criticism of Liquid's players and practices?
Anyway, the writer apologized and hopefully, future articles would at least be more encompassing if it wants to address issues like this one.
The OP's "news" posting rights should be removed, he/she is right in their groveling apology that bashing post was so bad its not even funny, there really is no place for stuff like that.
There is nothing wrong with asking those kinda of questions but this is not the forum for it. Nor should it be done by a member of TL. It should be done by someone not affiliated with a team. Heck Day9 could do it. Again nothing wrong with this discussion just not here and not by TL on other teams results.
While the author, confusedcrib, has apologized for the content of the "Should Team Evil Geniuses Have Established a North American Team House?" and the "Rise of the "No Names"" sections, the rest of his write-up contains equally poor writing.
In the "Are Mvp and Nestea Still the Best Players in the World?" section the author makes a point to refer to these players as Gods with an uppercase 'G' and attempts to construct a pun around this. Yet one sentence earlier he referred to them as gods with a lowercase 'g':
But the two gods showed their vulnerability at Providence.
I knew that the big - "g" Gods may actually be lower case ones ...
He then ends this section with a terrible picture of Artosis that seems out of place given the wonderful illustration at the beginning of the article and the beautiful photographs at the end of the article.
If there is one thing I know, it's that there may now be a Hero Huk rivalry in affect.
This reads as: "The one thing I know is nonsense." This is because the author didn't take the time to proofread his sentence and confuses the word "affect" for "effect."
The "The Big Upsets" section has been heavily criticized throughout this thread and I won't repeat any of those points here.
Compare this piece by confusedcrib to the "[SPL] Proleague 2011 - 2012 Season Preview" published three days earlier in the TL featured news section. The Proleague preview is both gorgeous and very well-written. It looks and reads better than most magazines that you can buy at the newsstand. In contrast, confusedcrib's section contains a blurry picture of Artosis and content that the author himself has apologized for. Given all of the above and the fact that in his apology the author has stated that the "article was not worthy of TeamLiquid's news" I see no reason why the section by confusedcrib shouldn't be removed from the Providence write-up.
Personally I prefer a diversity of opinions than the illusion of "false objectivity."
Let's get real, all journalism and reporting is, to a certain extent, biased and selective. If an opinion is reasoned and informed, why not publish it, even if does ruffle a few feathers?
It's not like TL doesn't give us all ample opportunity to debate the validity of someone's opinion.
On November 29 2011 09:52 mikkeld wrote: Some people don't seem to understand the effects sitting next to your teammates has, even if all their are doing is ladder, (which I don't think is true). There is a huge difference in motivation that goes on by being physically near your teammates and seeing all the practicing they are doing. It is much much easier to slack off if you are on your own but if you are slacking off in a team house you know all those eyes are on you.
There is also a degree of motivation to put out results based on the investment into the house by your team so you don't want that investment to be wasted.
I also think some people are over emphasizing the benefit of a coach. They are essentially players, and not even the best players due to how little they can practice in comparison, who help other players. This is something that teammates can do to each other. Probably the main benefit to a coach is that it is their job to do that helping so the players can spend a bit more time practicing rather than playing mini coach. For the number of people who live in the EG house I don't think a coach is that necessary.
thanks for repeating a quote from idra, real original
This feels like a kind of censorship, in my opinion. Everything you say against the progress of eSports will be muted. Fact is; the way the EG house was hyped, after this it didn't deliver the steps forward you would think it would provide in any of the EG players. It is questionable EG.HuK and EG.PuMa did benefit from the EG house. The most improved player after living in the EG house must be EG.IdrA, who stated his better play mostly came from a conversation he had with one of the EG managers about his mannerisms and attitude towards the game(?) Another player who did improve was EG.DeMusliM, but i believe he was always a prodigy for SC2 and he would've been at his level recovering from his arm injury no matter what kind of practice environment he had during his recovery.
I don't see what's wrong with confusedcrib's opinion on the EG house, which i think is shared by a lot of teamliquid.net readers and members. Sure it might ruffle some feathers here and there and sure it might be against iNcontrol who was vouching for being all-out-positive towards companies sponsoring eSports teams and players in his blog. I do think the EG house is a big step forward for eSport in Europe and American societies, but for now it has few to none results to show for and i totally back confusedcrib on his opinion and i don't think he has anything to make an apology for.
Just let me post another example: If somebody stated in upcoming article on DH that Grubby's stint in Korea didn't bring him the promissing results everybody expected from one of the best Warcraft 3 players ever in Starcraft 2 with Korean-alike practice. Would anybody really fall over it and practically force the writer to apologize afterwards?
On November 30 2011 08:27 Aberu wrote: 2 EG players in the top 10 of the most competitive tournament to date as of this article having been written.
EG house was a bad idea?
what?
Ok they are good but you honestly should have used a better arguement. Getting giving a spot and dodging the brutal code A qualifiers is not exactly an achievement. Should have used MLG results tbh.
I would like to perhaps see the EG section re-written but on a much broader scope investigating the usefullness or lackthereof of all foreign training houses. What progess was/is made by EG while in the lair, by those living in the swedish team house headed by TLO, and the old root/fnatic team house at the times when they were/are active. Whether they can be considered sucesses or failures can be examined based on some sort of quantitative scale and further examination done to see what things helped increase or decrease chances of success in each case.
Going even deeper, in time it might be worthwhile to examine the progress of foreign players who trained for extended periods of time in a korean teamhouse ( too few examples right now) and see how that compares to the results of those whose teamhouses are not in korea.
An opinion piece done like this would be so much better to read and be worth more to the community than what was intially posted which then had to be edited for being more inflamatory than what most of you see now and then apologized for. I love TL and I want it to be the sort of place I am come to for informed and well thought out articles no matter what topic. If I want to read biased accusations crafted for drama I'll go to the blogs section or reddit thanks.
On November 30 2011 09:40 Lokj wrote: Just let me post another example: If somebody stated in upcoming article on DH that Grubby's stint in Korea didn't bring him the promissing results everybody expected from one of the best Warcraft 3 players ever in Starcraft 2 with Korean-alike practice. Would anybody really fall over it and practically force the writer to apologize afterwards?
Depends on the language used and where it was posted, if it was a highlighted peice like CC's was and used similar language then yes. If someone said Grubby " needed to get his shit togeather" to gain the prestige he used to have and perhaps hosting, casting and winning ( one of) his own tournaments was just " managing to scrape up some good PR" people would be all over them. It would also be a pretty piss poorly written and researched article given that grubby has been fairly sucessful lately for someone who spent a whole month in korea.
On November 30 2011 09:40 Lokj wrote: Just let me post another example: If somebody stated in upcoming article on DH that Grubby's stint in Korea didn't bring him the promissing results everybody expected from one of the best Warcraft 3 players ever in Starcraft 2 with Korean-alike practice. Would anybody really fall over it and practically force the writer to apologize afterwards?
Depends on the language used and where it was posted, if it was a highlighted peice like CC's was and used similar language then yes. If someone said Grubby " needed to get his shit togeather" to gain the prestige he used to have and perhaps hosting, casting and winning ( one of) his own tournaments was just " managing to scrape up some good PR" people would be all over them. It would also be a pretty piss poorly written and researched article given that grubby has been fairly sucessful lately for someone who spent a whole month in korea.
The hilarious thing about this is that pre MLG providence people were talking the same way about naniwa. Went to korea, failed to do well in code a, came home, no results blah blah. OMFG Crushes MVP and NesTea back to back. What? You can't do that, we're busy posting on forums about how crap you are and how going to Korea was a waste.
Team EG's day will come and then everyone saying this shit will be busy posting crap about some other player or team who haven't met your expectations yet.
HuK was produced by oGs, not EG by any stretch of the imagination, and he has only seemed to do worse since leaving the oGs house. PuMa was pretty much produced by TSL and bought by EG Neither of them has ever really lived in the EG NA house such that you can say they've improved their play for it The peak of idra's sc2 career was in his time in korea, he isn't bad by any stretch of the imagination, but it's hard to deny he has gotten worse relative to top players since he moved to the team house (read: moved out of korea) The house has not helped anyone else, every other EG member has produced 0 results despite being there for quite a while The house obviously costs a TON of money to upkeep, while producing basically nothing better in comparison to if it wasn't there
I really commend EG for trying, but after this long it's not shocking that people have started to realize it was a bad business decision, I can't help but agree with this article
"Even with those two players though, losses to Gatored and dde when you live in a team house are hard to justify."
Gatored is fucking good man. You have no idea what you're talking about if you're trashing on Gatored. 3-0 a top TvP'er (top) who lives in the ogs house? That is nuts and deserves respect imo.
MLG was a great event, Leenock was so fucking impressive in his match vs DRG. After I watched that shit, I fucking knew he would rape Naniwa. That kid has the potential to be around for a long time. He impressed me more than NesTea or MC ever has (YUP). It was good to see Gatored do well as well, I been noticing how good that guy is for a long time now. Great to see him finally showing what hes made of. Great casting by Artosis / Tasteless as always, I will tune in every time to see those guys. Nice coverage, loved the pics (Machine so handsome).
edit: I'm going to stay out of the EG thing for the most part. Ain't my place, but I do think it was a very premature and doesn't do this game any good. Did you expect a gaming house to open and then have the players win every tournament every time and never ever loose to anyone bad? This game has too much variance at the moment for that to ever happen... for anyone. Now, I do think journalists are entitled to their opinion and entitled to express it as they see fit, as it is their job. Doesn't mean we have to blindly agree with it though and if every player / team is subjected to criticism and scrutiny (which they should be, result wise as least), the people writing about them and covering them should be subjected to the same extent. Personally, I think it was a very entertaining read and I thank you for that, but at the same time, I think a lot of people didn't get the respect they deserve in this post and for that, I am sad.
On November 29 2011 11:07 Shiori wrote: I don't understand why people are flaming the team house thing. I understand that TL needs to keep up appearances, but there was nothing unprofessional about the way the paragraph was written. It's definitely true, in addition. I don't think we've seen a substantial improvement, but even still, why are people giving so much flak to the author?
I think the backpedaling was more of a self-concerned move. TL has their own dead weight (and half their team spent months in a Korean pro-house no less), so toning critical comments about other players' poor performances is just a good idea.
I mean, EG has some players who lose way too much to justify keeping, but TL has Tyler, Haypro, and Jinro, all three of whom they fly to events consistently only to have them lose early almost every time.
On November 29 2011 11:07 Shiori wrote: I don't understand why people are flaming the team house thing. I understand that TL needs to keep up appearances, but there was nothing unprofessional about the way the paragraph was written. It's definitely true, in addition. I don't think we've seen a substantial improvement, but even still, why are people giving so much flak to the author?
I think the backpedaling was more of a self-concerned move. TL has their own dead weight (and half their team spent months in a Korean pro-house no less), so toning critical comments about other players' poor performances is just a good idea.
I mean, EG has some players who lose way too much to justify keeping, but TL has Tyler, Haypro, and Jinro, all three of whom they fly to events consistently only to have them lose early almost every time.
I just think its a little funny that EG, of all teams, would have a problem with an individual chiming in with a critical op-ed piece.
Don't get me wrong, I'm a big EG fan, but they have the most opinionated, openly critical players in the scene. It's WHY I'm a fan. Even SirScoots isn't afraid to lay into another organization or team from time to time.
Of course people are going to be critical of EG. They invite criticism. Big whoop.
On November 30 2011 02:02 confusedcrib wrote: I would like to personally apologize to the following people:
Evil Geniuses, specifically iNcontroL, Axslav, Strifecro, Idra, Huk, Puma, Machine, Demuslim, LZGamer and SirScoots for putting what was an unsubstantiated personal thought onto such a high pedestal as TeamLiquid news
dde, Spanishiwa, State, Ostojiy, Syckness, Agh, HeavenOnearth, Binski, Ruff13, and Forbs for understating their level of skill in referring to them as "No Names," they are some of my favorite players, and I made extremely poor word choice.
Haypro and Illusion for leaving out their amazing tournament runs
Hot_Bid and Nazgul, for tarnishing TeamLiquid's name and calling the quality of our news into question
Heyoka and WaxAngel, whose editing skills are what makes TL news as good as it is, and have the right to expect more from their writers
All of the writers and mods for TeamLiquid, in producing poor quality content I brought a bad name to the amazing quality content that you all make our standard.
Statement:
Upon further reflection, I owe everyone here an apology. When I originally posted the article, I knew there was something wrong with it, and chose to ignore it over Thanksgiving weekend rather than giving it the extra time it needed.That article was not worthy of TeamLiquid's news, and did not have anywhere close to the amount of research behind it that it should have. I put everyone here in a terrible situation diplomatically and personally, inciting anger from both fans of TeamLiquid and other professionals in the industry. I'm especially sorry to Heyoka, for he should be able to trust the content coming out of writers to be good, and I fell vastly short of expectations. The article was clearly below the standards held by both TeamLiquid and myself, and I will do my best to insure that every article I write in the future gets the scrutiny and attention to detail that TeamLiquid precedents. I hope I have written enough good content in the past that my name as a writer was not completely destroyed by this incident; I did not intend to get my name in the community by screwing up so badly, I am truly sorry.
Your apology is very heartfelt and sincere, which is a rare sight in online communities. I feel that it would do well for the apology to be acknowledged and accepted by those who were offended.
Remember Ghandi: "The weak can never forgive. Forgiveness is an attribute of the strong."
Also, regardless if you feel the apology was necessary or not, the gentleman felt that it was and expressed himself. That should be acknowledged.
Excellent article except for the EG team house. Why do you even make a (poorly written) piece about a team and their house in a post that is a summary of the MLG tournament? It doesn't make any sense. And like Rich pointed out, excellent photos
On November 30 2011 17:16 Integra wrote: Excellent article except for the EG team house. Why do you even make a (poorly written) piece about a team and their house in a post that is a summary of the MLG tournament? It doesn't make any sense. And like Rich pointed out, excellent photos
It helps to read the comments in the thread before posting something critical. The original poster specifically stated the reasoning behind the post, the mistake that was made, a profuse apology to those offended and a promise to not repeat the same mistake in the future.
You are only rubbing salt in a wound that needs to close with your reckless criticism.
On November 30 2011 17:09 R1CH wrote: All this EG stuff is distracting everyone from the awesome photos!
Can't say I dig TLO's beard. He has a handsome face!
It is a pretty handsome beard as well, to be fair
Hope he dosn't trim it before he wins a tournament.. When he does finally take a tourney, it's going to be so much more awesome for him and everyone ::-)
He definitely should (and did) apologize for that piece on EG. Everyone is entitled to an opinion, even the TL staff, but we expect a higher level of scrutiny out of anything that is featured on TL. If he had written that section as its own post on the SC2 general boards, it barely would be worth mentioning and there wouldn't be this huge uproar. For featured posts, we expect well researched and supported posts (predictions get a bit of a pass, but questioning the value of another team's house does not). The OP section on EG was not researched or well supported, it seemed much more like someone spouting off an ill-informed opinion.
If you really want to make a case that the EG house isn't worth it, then that's fine. Make a real case for it. Do some research and tell me how much that house is costing the team each month, including any extra staff, food, etc. Now do some research and find out how much of a salary discount each current player is willing to give because he's getting free room and board. Finally, try to find out how much money EG is getting directly and indirectly because they have a house (more sponsorship deals and other profitable projects now and in the future due to added exposure). Then add it all up and tell me if the house is a positive or a negative. Is it worth it?
The only people that have access to all that information is the EG management and they seem to think it's worth it. Even though you can't get exact answers, with a little bit of digging you should be able to hit some ballpark numbers. With approximate numbers in hand, write it up and tell me whether it's worth it or not. Now, if you answer turns up that the house is a negative, tell me what caliber of player(s) they could have signed for the net cost of the house just to help the point sink in.
If you want to change the article from "Is It Worth It" to "Is it Helping the Team Get Better Results", then use researched facts rather than anecdotal statements about one tournament. If you want to single out the EG house specifically as opposed to all team houses, then compare the results to other team houses. Korea has a ton of them (and they all have lower tier players with almost 0 accomplishments). For EG, show me some player stats. Show me that from NASL Season One to Season Two: Incontrol - 42% -> 18%, 24% decrease. Axslav - 50% -> 24%, 26% decrease. Machine - 30% -> DNP.
However, then also add in Idra - 62% -> 71%, 9% increase.
Look right there, I made a case that Incontrol, Axslav, and Machine have underperformed since joining the team house. And it's a much better supported case than what the original article made. Or I could take a look at ladder stats from season 3 to season 4: Incontrol - 56% -> 52%, 4% decrease. Idra - 74% -> 59%, 15% decrease.
However, then you should also note: Axslav - 60% -> 72%, 12% increase. Strifecro - 62% -> 74%, 12% increase. Machine 57% -> 61%, 4% increase.
You could accept those numbers at face value and make a case based on them and that's okay. However, a really good journalist would dig a bit deeper. Was season one of NASL actually an overall weaker field? People like to focus on the lack of Koreans in Season Two, but Season two also got rid of a lot of lower end pros. Maybe season two really is a stronger group overall and that would explain the numbers I've shown. Now, the really fun part is that you could write multiple interesting articles purely on the possible explanations for these numbers.
On November 30 2011 17:09 R1CH wrote: All this EG stuff is distracting everyone from the awesome photos!
Can't say I dig TLO's beard. He has a handsome face!
It is a pretty handsome beard as well, to be fair
Hope he dosn't trim it before he wins a tournament.. When he does finally take a tourney, it's going to be so much more awesome for him and everyone ::-)
His beard is already well groomed (trimmed) I think you mean you hope he doesn't decide to thin it out. You have to trim a beard at least once a week or else it gets out of hand, fast.
I am also really not sure about this apology. You surely can apologize if you feel this write-up is not your best work (the no-name section is really not good), but to apologize to EG for your opinion is rather strange. Well, maybe if TL wants to have only neutral news in the future and no opinion pieces, but that seems rather boring, as Chill pointed out nicely.
So why exactly stating the facts are incorrect or wrong? I mean opinions can be biased and completely wrong like "baaah Idra has gotten worse" which is maybe true maybe not, it depends where you look it from. But the fact that aside from the 3 mentioned players from EG and maybe Demuslim the rest aren't even remotely close to being on an even "decent" level. But I don't think this is new to anybody, because I'm sure the players themselves know that too. I think the team house is nice and all, but some people just aren't meant to compete on the highest level. Just look at the BW pros, they don't even have excuses because everyone practices 12 hours, so how come one guy has 35% win rate and the other has 65%? People should realize that not everyone is capable of being a top player even if every condition are given to him.
On November 30 2011 06:01 Defacer wrote: You know what, it bothers me that you feel like you have to apologize for having an opinion. There's a place for 'objective' journalism, but there is also a place for informed opinion pieces.
Yeah, that's kinda the point...
The general consensus among people here, including both EG and TL representatives, is that a staff-posted and featured front page news article is not the appropriate place for inflammatory opinionated. If he posted that tirade in the blogs section, very few people would care. The entire controversy was about how his subjective opinion was featured in a "news" piece.
On November 30 2011 21:57 ThePlayer33 wrote: does anyone else think that mlg orlando was better than mlg providence?
Personally, I would say Anaheim/Columbus were the better events, just in terms of the crowds.. Im terribly biased in this though, as active crowds make up alot of the experience for me, even when i'm watching it online
On November 30 2011 19:54 Malinor wrote: I am also really not sure about this apology. You surely can apologize if you feel this write-up is not your best work (the no-name section is really not good), but to apologize to EG for your opinion is rather strange. Well, maybe if TL wants to have only neutral news in the future and no opinion pieces, but that seems rather boring, as Chill pointed out nicely.
I don't think Gatored gets enough credit. They say "losses to Gatored and dde when you live in a team house are hard to justify." I believe him beating Ganzi and Axslav both 2-0 should at least get him some recognition.
Can someone tell me why Boxer vs Rain's 1-hour game won an award while Tod vs Happy Game 1 at Dreamhack was panned by the casters and the community for being a long and boring game? In both games, both players macro'd up and didn't attack or only attacked sporadically without any major commitments.
Aside from the author being an obvious fanboy of Boxer?
This whole post is dribble. Leenock being middle of the road....e-sports crumbling around you? This whole article was just bad....that stuff about eg? TL needs to look at what people are posting.
I'm not sure why the fuck EG House is a bad thing just because EG players except the stars are in a slump recently. They have a lot of sponsors because of High personnaly players like InControL, IdrA, Demuslim and HuK, therefore they have the money to own an house, therefore the House is bringing them more publicity, therefore the house is bringing probably more sponsors.
If it's a good thing for them and if they are streaming more because of this, they will make themself an even bigger name because of it. If they get a bigger name, they get more followers and fan... and that's a great thing for the team, and for eSports.
So... why the fuck should we shit on them just because they have a team house? I don't get it.
On November 30 2011 13:51 ffadicted wrote: Let's be completely honest here
HuK was produced by oGs, not EG by any stretch of the imagination, and he has only seemed to do worse since leaving the oGs house. PuMa was pretty much produced by TSL and bought by EG Neither of them has ever really lived in the EG NA house such that you can say they've improved their play for it The peak of idra's sc2 career was in his time in korea, he isn't bad by any stretch of the imagination, but it's hard to deny he has gotten worse relative to top players since he moved to the team house (read: moved out of korea) The house has not helped anyone else, every other EG member has produced 0 results despite being there for quite a while The house obviously costs a TON of money to upkeep, while producing basically nothing better in comparison to if it wasn't there
I really commend EG for trying, but after this long it's not shocking that people have started to realize it was a bad business decision, I can't help but agree with this article
Haven't they only had their house for a month or two now? Pretty sure IdrA's won several international tourneys since then, Puma's placed highly, and HuK's done his share of winning too. Since HuK and Puma have spent several weeks each in the EG house, nothing you said is really that fair.
Yeah, EG acquired played they didn't develop, but when they started their acquisitions they didn't even have a house, a presence in Korea, or any semblance of the things that breed winners. And when you say the house hasn't helped them win any more than they did since they moved or joined EG, what's to say it hasn't helped them maintain their skill level? All three of them are still beating Koreans regularly despite the fact that said Koreans live in pro-houses, so from what I see they're keeping up at the very least which is a lot more than everyone else. Nani is the only relevant player on coL now, top EU players like Sjow, Whitera, etc. haven't won anything in a long time, TL's players are struggling to make top 8 in tourneys, and so on.
Objectively speaking, EG has been the most successful foreign team by a pretty significant margin for a while now so it's pretty confusing that they're the center of criticism.
Hey jsut a heads up, no biggy, but this picture is actually from OMGYUMYUM.com. I'd know because thats me in the picture with gatored lol Not angry or petty, we would just appreciate the attention
Please get along as best you can. I know each team/tournament/community has their own agenda/bias and everyone has to look out for themselves, but as the non-dramawhore that I am, articles like that are like nails on a chalkboard, it's just unpleasant.
EPT![[image loading]](/tlpd/images/flags/ks.png)
Leenock![[image loading]](/tlpd/images/flags/se.png)
NaNiwa 
MVP![[image loading]](/tlpd/images/flags/ca.png)
![[image loading]](/tlpd/images/flags/us.png)
![[image loading]](/staff/fishuu/MLGLeenocktopus.jpg)
![[image loading]](http://www.teamliquid.net/staff/Waxangel/GSL/Oct11/artosisyell.jpg)
![[image loading]](/staff/heyoka/sc2tourn/GosuGatered.jpg)
![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/PgaFx.jpg)
. I really hope someone from EG can answer if this is true and also explain why they don't play in-house games against each other.
![[image loading]](http://www.teamliquid.net/staff/R1CH/MLGProvidenceDay3/silverfire/501_05851_t.jpg)
![[image loading]](http://www.teamliquid.net/staff/R1CH/MLGProvidenceDay3/silverfire/Party/501_02456_t.jpg)
![[image loading]](http://www.teamliquid.net/staff/R1CH/MLGProvidenceDay3/silverfire/Party/501_01947_t.jpg)
![[image loading]](http://www.teamliquid.net/staff/heyoka/sc2tourn/GosuGatered.jpg)
