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Today I had a little brainstorm about an issue I've thought off before, but I've decided to get some second opinions on it now.
As all experienced players know ( especially zergs ) larvae management is very important. The main tools of harass against zerg are drone sniping, but what happens when the zerg is quick on his feet and gets his drones out before you can roast them ?
I think we have all seen situations where a bunch of hellions arrive at a base with no drones working, they decide to leave or fire for a while at the hatch doing minimal damage, but there is another option here... larvae !
Larvae are possible attacking units or workers given time, and the earlier larvae are especially important. Larvae stack at hatcheries in the late game as well, up to a total of 19 per hatch, giving zerg an amazing ability to replenish their armies. Could these be opportunity targets that are often missed by players ?
Lets have a look at the larva.
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Larva
25 health
10 armor
light - biological
rather quick regeneration
Their health is very low, but it is made up by their high armor count. A unit needs to have over 10 damage to be effective at killing them, as well as preferably have aoe to clear out a pack of them. This narrows our window down to a few units. Lets list them at look at how they do.
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Hellion
Unupgraded
14 damage per shot every 2,5 seconds. A single hellion takes 8 shots to kill a larva ( unlikely to hit all 3 or more in such a long time ).
What happens when we bump the number up to 4 hellions ? 4 hellions take 2 shots to kill a line of larvae... now we are getting somewhere.
Blue flame
19 damage per shot every 2,5 seconds. Kills larva in 3 shots.
3 blue flame hellions 1 shot a line of larvae.
2 hellions with +3 one shot a line of larvae.
Pro feedback - MorroW:
"for hellions its pretty hard, i try to do it sometimes but usually zerg just spawn egg with it as soon as they realize whats going on its good to pressure like this if they do the double spine crawler at their natural but you can still fire on the larvas"
Baneling
A unupgraded baneling does 35 damage, and has a blast radius big enough to kill at least 16 larvae in one fell swoop late game as well as clear out lower count larvae bases.
Pro feedback - MorroW:
" in zvz it can be really good some situataions in ling baneling war. but problem is usually zerg spend larvea imminently to survive anyway so you must be quick xd "
High templar
Storm
One well planted storm will clear out all 12 or more larvae at a hatchery if it is filled to the brim at 19 in a late game situation. It will of course clear out lesser numbers of larvae, but high templar tech isn't exactly early, but late game storm drop to clear out larvae before a big fight ? Now we are getting somewhere.
Raven
Seeker missile
18 kills at a 19 larvae hatch.
Infestor
Fungal Growth
One shots all larva at a base, up to a maximum of 18 larva per fungal
Ghost
Nuke
Will kill all larva, as well as damage the hatchery and possibly killing drones / queens or units. One nuke on a fully larva injected hatchery ( macro one or expansion ) would result in a possible 38 fewer lings in forms of reinforcements after / during a huge fight for example.
Dark Templar
One shots larva. Zerg ran his drones away ? Take the easy targets and swipe away all his larva.
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These are just a few examples, at least one for each race, some of them are a lot more likely to be used than others, but please do not argue against the whole concept because you find one situation unlikely.
Now, I know you might say that larvae don't really matter, and that people shouldn't bother to attack them, but believe me, they matter a lot... I'm not saying they should be your number one priority during drops and harass, but they are often easy targets that are completely unable to move away and losing them can seriously hurt a zerg.
A zerg sitting at 40 larva in a 200 vs 200 type fight is a lot less scary than one sitting at 80 or more I think we can all agree.
That's it for my little rant. I feel target them is underrated, especially during hellion harass since that is the most likely situation for it happen in, but as demonstrated a single baneling into the larvae line in a ZvZ or a storm in late game PvZ can be absolutely devastating.
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Most protosses try to kill larva with their dts if/when the drones run away. The problem with storm dropping larva however is you can never know how much larva is at a base unless zerg is not denying your obs. So yeah you can go in with the intent to hit mineral line but if you see a juicy pile of larva go for that instead.
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Although I cant see it catching on for some reason, It'd be so awesome to see someone snipe lines of larvae In a major tournament. :3
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Except for severe late game, no good zerg should be stockpiling that much larva in the first place.
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Besides storm drops, I don't see the point attacking larvae post early game, and even with storm drops, it's just more effective to go for the drones.
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out of these i feel that ravens and high templar are the best options...ravens slightly better due to the fact that they dont need a shuttle (warp prism) to get there to kill the larvae...i like the idea and i might try to work it into my lategame PvZ
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On November 27 2011 13:38 Inertia_EU wrote:
Although I cant see it catching on for some reason, It'd be so awesome to see someone snipe lines of larvae In a major tournament. :3
Early game TvZ every larva matters a lot. Bringing your 4 hellions to a natural or 3rd and clearing out the larvae will represent a big drop in production capabilities for a zerg. Even losing 2 or 3 larva can be absolutely devastating, representing 3 less drones as basically free damage for the terran.
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agree with unit, ravens would be great, but because of mutas.......it's simply not going to work.
most of these aren't really useful until the extreme late game with stockpiled though, and by then reactors would be off the factories and your sacrificing build time for tanks. if you catch a good amount of stockpiled larvae your golden, but if you dont.....
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Usually, Terran players don't have the luxury of sitting around all day in a Zerg's base with their hellions, so they attack the drones first... but if they actually have extra time on their hands, perhaps they may go for larvae (although what Zerg player in the early game is going to have that many extra larvae stocked up at a single hatchery?).
As a Protoss player, there are soooo many other options I'm choosing for my precious high templar's storms than larvae. Sure, psi storm can be effective against them, but it's a waste compared to taking out a whole drone line or using them in battle (which are far more necessary).
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On November 27 2011 13:39 TKHawkins wrote:
Except for severe late game, no good zerg should be stockpiling that much larva in the first place.
Considering there are many games where zerg can max out before the 15 minute mark I think this idea has more credence than you are giving it. If nothing else the 3 blue flame hellions one shotting larva is something that I think has game ending potential if done properly.
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On November 27 2011 13:40 unit wrote:
out of these i feel that ravens and high templar are the best options...ravens slightly better due to the fact that they dont need a shuttle (warp prism) to get there to kill the larvae...i like the idea and i might try to work it into my lategame PvZ
Thing is, you won't always get those drones. If they are there, storm them. But if they are not, you have that juicy pile of larva to remove from the zerg instead.
Larva can be more valuable than drones in late game situations when the idea of a 300 food push or battle comes to mind, since you'll be cutting a zergs possible reinforcements immensely if you can deplete his stockpiles successfully.
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Drones > Queens > Larva is the flow of attacks I do with Hellions
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On November 27 2011 13:40 absalom86 wrote:Show nested quote +On November 27 2011 13:38 Inertia_EU wrote:
Although I cant see it catching on for some reason, It'd be so awesome to see someone snipe lines of larvae In a major tournament. :3 Early game TvZ every larva matters a lot. Bringing your 4 hellions to a natural or 3rd and clearing out the larvae will represent a big drop in production capabilities for a zerg. Even losing 2 or 3 larva can be absolutely devastating, representing 3 less drones as basically free damage for the terran.
Can be good, but mostly never happens. It's like 90% impossible and non cost effective to go for larva at a natural, because if the zerg isn't sub platinum league, he will defend with no loses suffered, and post early game it;'s just better to go for drones.
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On November 27 2011 13:40 unit wrote:
out of these i feel that ravens and high templar are the best options...ravens slightly better due to the fact that they dont need a shuttle (warp prism) to get there to kill the larvae...i like the idea and i might try to work it into my lategame PvZ
Ravens? Ravens are just a waste in TvZ, and I very much doubt we will ever see them even in HoTS used in the matchup.
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On November 27 2011 13:47 Blizzard_torments_me wrote:Show nested quote +On November 27 2011 13:40 unit wrote:
out of these i feel that ravens and high templar are the best options...ravens slightly better due to the fact that they dont need a shuttle (warp prism) to get there to kill the larvae...i like the idea and i might try to work it into my lategame PvZ Ravens? Ravens are just a waste in TvZ, and I very much doubt we will ever see them even in HoTS used in the matchup.
You need one for baneling landmines. Why not use its energy for that?
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If you're going to kill a drone, he's forced to lose a larvae to replace it, for 50 minerals too.
Drones > Larvae.
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On November 27 2011 13:44 mrlie3 wrote:
Drones > Queens > Larva is the flow of attacks I do with Hellions
As mentioned, The larva won't be your main target unless you want to prevent remaxes in very specific situations. Often you'll arrive at an empty hatchery, or an evacuated base. In that situation you'll have an easy target to hit in the form of the larva. As mentioned in the OP, it's not like this is some magic anti zerg win button, but a tool that might be underused in special situations.
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On November 27 2011 13:47 Blizzard_torments_me wrote:Show nested quote +On November 27 2011 13:40 unit wrote:
out of these i feel that ravens and high templar are the best options...ravens slightly better due to the fact that they dont need a shuttle (warp prism) to get there to kill the larvae...i like the idea and i might try to work it into my lategame PvZ Ravens? Ravens are just a waste in TvZ, and I very much doubt we will ever see them even in HoTS used in the matchup.
Yeah, spending 10 mules worth of scans is better than using that excess gas on a raven.
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On November 27 2011 13:38 Inertia_EU wrote:
Although I cant see it catching on for some reason, It'd be so awesome to see someone snipe lines of larvae In a major tournament. :3
For some reason I think if someone DID hit the line of larvae intentionally the casters wouldn't pick up on it because it is so rare that it happens.
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On November 27 2011 13:47 Blizzard_torments_me wrote:Show nested quote +On November 27 2011 13:40 unit wrote:
out of these i feel that ravens and high templar are the best options...ravens slightly better due to the fact that they dont need a shuttle (warp prism) to get there to kill the larvae...i like the idea and i might try to work it into my lategame PvZ Ravens? Ravens are just a waste in TvZ, and I very much doubt we will ever see them even in HoTS used in the matchup.
Ravens are not a waste at all in TvZ. They may not be used much at the moment, but they have their uses especially for detection as well as point defense drones along with mech usually.
The hellions will be a lot more likely to be seen on larva sniping duty than a raven, but a seeker missile is absolutely devastating if you get the hit in.
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EPT
