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Today I had a little brainstorm about an issue I've thought off before, but I've decided to get some second opinions on it now.
As all experienced players know ( especially zergs ) larvae management is very important. The main tools of harass against zerg are drone sniping, but what happens when the zerg is quick on his feet and gets his drones out before you can roast them ?
I think we have all seen situations where a bunch of hellions arrive at a base with no drones working, they decide to leave or fire for a while at the hatch doing minimal damage, but there is another option here... larvae !
Larvae are possible attacking units or workers given time, and the earlier larvae are especially important. Larvae stack at hatcheries in the late game as well, up to a total of 19 per hatch, giving zerg an amazing ability to replenish their armies. Could these be opportunity targets that are often missed by players ?
Lets have a look at the larva.
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Larva
25 health
10 armor
light - biological
rather quick regeneration
Their health is very low, but it is made up by their high armor count. A unit needs to have over 10 damage to be effective at killing them, as well as preferably have aoe to clear out a pack of them. This narrows our window down to a few units. Lets list them at look at how they do.
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Hellion
Unupgraded
14 damage per shot every 2,5 seconds. A single hellion takes 8 shots to kill a larva ( unlikely to hit all 3 or more in such a long time ).
What happens when we bump the number up to 4 hellions ? 4 hellions take 2 shots to kill a line of larvae... now we are getting somewhere.
Blue flame
19 damage per shot every 2,5 seconds. Kills larva in 3 shots.
3 blue flame hellions 1 shot a line of larvae.
2 hellions with +3 one shot a line of larvae.
Pro feedback - MorroW:
"for hellions its pretty hard, i try to do it sometimes but usually zerg just spawn egg with it as soon as they realize whats going on its good to pressure like this if they do the double spine crawler at their natural but you can still fire on the larvas"
Baneling
A unupgraded baneling does 35 damage, and has a blast radius big enough to kill at least 16 larvae in one fell swoop late game as well as clear out lower count larvae bases.
Pro feedback - MorroW:
" in zvz it can be really good some situataions in ling baneling war. but problem is usually zerg spend larvea imminently to survive anyway so you must be quick xd "
High templar
Storm
One well planted storm will clear out all 12 or more larvae at a hatchery if it is filled to the brim at 19 in a late game situation. It will of course clear out lesser numbers of larvae, but high templar tech isn't exactly early, but late game storm drop to clear out larvae before a big fight ? Now we are getting somewhere.
Raven
Seeker missile
18 kills at a 19 larvae hatch.
Infestor
Fungal Growth
One shots all larva at a base, up to a maximum of 18 larva per fungal
Ghost
Nuke
Will kill all larva, as well as damage the hatchery and possibly killing drones / queens or units. One nuke on a fully larva injected hatchery ( macro one or expansion ) would result in a possible 38 fewer lings in forms of reinforcements after / during a huge fight for example.
Dark Templar
One shots larva. Zerg ran his drones away ? Take the easy targets and swipe away all his larva.
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These are just a few examples, at least one for each race, some of them are a lot more likely to be used than others, but please do not argue against the whole concept because you find one situation unlikely.
Now, I know you might say that larvae don't really matter, and that people shouldn't bother to attack them, but believe me, they matter a lot... I'm not saying they should be your number one priority during drops and harass, but they are often easy targets that are completely unable to move away and losing them can seriously hurt a zerg.
A zerg sitting at 40 larva in a 200 vs 200 type fight is a lot less scary than one sitting at 80 or more I think we can all agree.
That's it for my little rant. I feel target them is underrated, especially during hellion harass since that is the most likely situation for it happen in, but as demonstrated a single baneling into the larvae line in a ZvZ or a storm in late game PvZ can be absolutely devastating.
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Most protosses try to kill larva with their dts if/when the drones run away. The problem with storm dropping larva however is you can never know how much larva is at a base unless zerg is not denying your obs. So yeah you can go in with the intent to hit mineral line but if you see a juicy pile of larva go for that instead.
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Although I cant see it catching on for some reason, It'd be so awesome to see someone snipe lines of larvae In a major tournament. :3
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Except for severe late game, no good zerg should be stockpiling that much larva in the first place.
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Besides storm drops, I don't see the point attacking larvae post early game, and even with storm drops, it's just more effective to go for the drones.
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out of these i feel that ravens and high templar are the best options...ravens slightly better due to the fact that they dont need a shuttle (warp prism) to get there to kill the larvae...i like the idea and i might try to work it into my lategame PvZ
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On November 27 2011 13:38 Inertia_EU wrote:
Although I cant see it catching on for some reason, It'd be so awesome to see someone snipe lines of larvae In a major tournament. :3
Early game TvZ every larva matters a lot. Bringing your 4 hellions to a natural or 3rd and clearing out the larvae will represent a big drop in production capabilities for a zerg. Even losing 2 or 3 larva can be absolutely devastating, representing 3 less drones as basically free damage for the terran.
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agree with unit, ravens would be great, but because of mutas.......it's simply not going to work.
most of these aren't really useful until the extreme late game with stockpiled though, and by then reactors would be off the factories and your sacrificing build time for tanks. if you catch a good amount of stockpiled larvae your golden, but if you dont.....
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Usually, Terran players don't have the luxury of sitting around all day in a Zerg's base with their hellions, so they attack the drones first... but if they actually have extra time on their hands, perhaps they may go for larvae (although what Zerg player in the early game is going to have that many extra larvae stocked up at a single hatchery?).
As a Protoss player, there are soooo many other options I'm choosing for my precious high templar's storms than larvae. Sure, psi storm can be effective against them, but it's a waste compared to taking out a whole drone line or using them in battle (which are far more necessary).
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On November 27 2011 13:39 TKHawkins wrote:
Except for severe late game, no good zerg should be stockpiling that much larva in the first place.
Considering there are many games where zerg can max out before the 15 minute mark I think this idea has more credence than you are giving it. If nothing else the 3 blue flame hellions one shotting larva is something that I think has game ending potential if done properly.
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On November 27 2011 13:40 unit wrote:
out of these i feel that ravens and high templar are the best options...ravens slightly better due to the fact that they dont need a shuttle (warp prism) to get there to kill the larvae...i like the idea and i might try to work it into my lategame PvZ
Thing is, you won't always get those drones. If they are there, storm them. But if they are not, you have that juicy pile of larva to remove from the zerg instead.
Larva can be more valuable than drones in late game situations when the idea of a 300 food push or battle comes to mind, since you'll be cutting a zergs possible reinforcements immensely if you can deplete his stockpiles successfully.
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Drones > Queens > Larva is the flow of attacks I do with Hellions
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On November 27 2011 13:40 absalom86 wrote:Show nested quote +On November 27 2011 13:38 Inertia_EU wrote:
Although I cant see it catching on for some reason, It'd be so awesome to see someone snipe lines of larvae In a major tournament. :3 Early game TvZ every larva matters a lot. Bringing your 4 hellions to a natural or 3rd and clearing out the larvae will represent a big drop in production capabilities for a zerg. Even losing 2 or 3 larva can be absolutely devastating, representing 3 less drones as basically free damage for the terran.
Can be good, but mostly never happens. It's like 90% impossible and non cost effective to go for larva at a natural, because if the zerg isn't sub platinum league, he will defend with no loses suffered, and post early game it;'s just better to go for drones.
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On November 27 2011 13:40 unit wrote:
out of these i feel that ravens and high templar are the best options...ravens slightly better due to the fact that they dont need a shuttle (warp prism) to get there to kill the larvae...i like the idea and i might try to work it into my lategame PvZ
Ravens? Ravens are just a waste in TvZ, and I very much doubt we will ever see them even in HoTS used in the matchup.
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On November 27 2011 13:47 Blizzard_torments_me wrote:Show nested quote +On November 27 2011 13:40 unit wrote:
out of these i feel that ravens and high templar are the best options...ravens slightly better due to the fact that they dont need a shuttle (warp prism) to get there to kill the larvae...i like the idea and i might try to work it into my lategame PvZ Ravens? Ravens are just a waste in TvZ, and I very much doubt we will ever see them even in HoTS used in the matchup.
You need one for baneling landmines. Why not use its energy for that?
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If you're going to kill a drone, he's forced to lose a larvae to replace it, for 50 minerals too.
Drones > Larvae.
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On November 27 2011 13:44 mrlie3 wrote:
Drones > Queens > Larva is the flow of attacks I do with Hellions
As mentioned, The larva won't be your main target unless you want to prevent remaxes in very specific situations. Often you'll arrive at an empty hatchery, or an evacuated base. In that situation you'll have an easy target to hit in the form of the larva. As mentioned in the OP, it's not like this is some magic anti zerg win button, but a tool that might be underused in special situations.
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On November 27 2011 13:47 Blizzard_torments_me wrote:Show nested quote +On November 27 2011 13:40 unit wrote:
out of these i feel that ravens and high templar are the best options...ravens slightly better due to the fact that they dont need a shuttle (warp prism) to get there to kill the larvae...i like the idea and i might try to work it into my lategame PvZ Ravens? Ravens are just a waste in TvZ, and I very much doubt we will ever see them even in HoTS used in the matchup.
Yeah, spending 10 mules worth of scans is better than using that excess gas on a raven.
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On November 27 2011 13:38 Inertia_EU wrote:
Although I cant see it catching on for some reason, It'd be so awesome to see someone snipe lines of larvae In a major tournament. :3
For some reason I think if someone DID hit the line of larvae intentionally the casters wouldn't pick up on it because it is so rare that it happens.
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On November 27 2011 13:47 Blizzard_torments_me wrote:Show nested quote +On November 27 2011 13:40 unit wrote:
out of these i feel that ravens and high templar are the best options...ravens slightly better due to the fact that they dont need a shuttle (warp prism) to get there to kill the larvae...i like the idea and i might try to work it into my lategame PvZ Ravens? Ravens are just a waste in TvZ, and I very much doubt we will ever see them even in HoTS used in the matchup.
Ravens are not a waste at all in TvZ. They may not be used much at the moment, but they have their uses especially for detection as well as point defense drones along with mech usually.
The hellions will be a lot more likely to be seen on larva sniping duty than a raven, but a seeker missile is absolutely devastating if you get the hit in.
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On November 27 2011 13:40 absalom86 wrote:Show nested quote +On November 27 2011 13:38 Inertia_EU wrote:
Although I cant see it catching on for some reason, It'd be so awesome to see someone snipe lines of larvae In a major tournament. :3 Early game TvZ every larva matters a lot. Bringing your 4 hellions to a natural or 3rd and clearing out the larvae will represent a big drop in production capabilities for a zerg. Even losing 2 or 3 larva can be absolutely devastating, representing 3 less drones as basically free damage for the terran.
At that stage of the game having drones up and mining are more important; so they're the higher priority. If the drones have left i'd rather preserve the hellions for later harassment than leave them there, killing larvae, until the reinforcements come and kill all your units.
Ravens TvZ are a huge investment and would probably be gotten just to kill larvae, which makes no sense, especially since you have no way of knowing if there will actually be larvae there.
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Why the hell would a zerg with mutalisks allow the slow raven to walk up to its hatcheries so it can shoot a missile at its larvae?
Raven can be used in t v z for spotting banes + pdd, but certainly not for larva sniping lol.
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On November 27 2011 13:55 absalom86 wrote:Show nested quote +On November 27 2011 13:47 Blizzard_torments_me wrote:On November 27 2011 13:40 unit wrote:
out of these i feel that ravens and high templar are the best options...ravens slightly better due to the fact that they dont need a shuttle (warp prism) to get there to kill the larvae...i like the idea and i might try to work it into my lategame PvZ Ravens? Ravens are just a waste in TvZ, and I very much doubt we will ever see them even in HoTS used in the matchup. Ravens are not a waste at all in TvZ. They may not be used much at the moment, but they have their uses especially for detection as well as point defense drones along with mech usually. The hellions will be a lot more likely to be seen on larva sniping duty than a raven, but a seeker missile is absolutely devastating if you get the hit in.
You forget the energy cost+research of the PDD, both of which would go towards better things. Also, most of the staples of zerg TvZ wouldn't be affected by PDD anyway...
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banelings also kill larva in one fell swoop
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in ZvZ vs fast expanding Zerg's I use this all the time when I go 14gas 14pool, baneling bust, I use the banelings to kill lings and snipe all the larva with a single baneling at they're expo, which makes the 14gas 14pool ALOT stronger if you can do it correctly, takes a lot of micro but it is possible.
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On November 27 2011 14:01 poorcloud wrote:
Why the hell would a zerg with mutalisks allow the slow raven to walk up to its hatcheries so it can shoot a missile at its larvae?
Raven can be used in t v z for spotting banes + pdd, but certainly not for larva sniping lol.
Again, this is missing the point. A raven can kill an entire stack of larva but is unlikely to do it. It can happen, but that is besides the point of the thread. I listed a few units than can be used for this, please do not focus on one single unit and argue against the thread because of how unlikely you find it to happen.
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the only practical application are hellions killing larva in the early game only because they can't get into position to kill drones. Other than that I think it's often better to just kill drones or tech so they can't actually make the units they need.
but some cool stats, next time I see a base with zero drones, zero tech and lots of larva I'll be sure to kill them instead of the hatchery...
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in zvz it can be really good some situataions in ling baneling war. but problem is usually zerg spend larvea imminently to survive anyway so you must be quick xd
for hellions its pretty hard, i try to do it sometimes but usually zerg just spawn egg with it as soon as they realize whats going on
its good to pressure like this if they do the double spine crawler at their natural but you can still fire on the larvas
lategame i dont know, think its not worth it. usually zerg has sick amount of larva. more than needed. i think its better idea to try your best to snipe tech buildings before a fight
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On November 27 2011 14:12 MorroW wrote:
in zvz it can be really good some situataions in ling baneling war. but problem is usually zerg spend larvea imminently to survive anyway so you must be quick xd
for hellions its pretty hard, i try to do it sometimes but usually zerg just spawn egg with it as soon as they realize whats going on
its good to pressure like this if they do the double spine crawler at their natural but you can still fire on the larvas
lategame i dont know, think its not worth it. usually zerg has sick amount of larva. more than needed. i think its better idea to try your best to snipe tech buildings before a fight
Thanks for the response MorroW. Glad to see a pro giving this credence, Hopefully we'll see more players embrace the concept and see it developed.
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Don't forget fungal growth, which could be absolutely viable with burrowed/dropped infestors. Again, the problem is that there are better targets (drones).
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doesn't seem worth it, you could kill drones instead
I mean, i guess if you stumble across a barren hatchery with 20 larva, no mining or queens or tech or units or overlords with it, yeah, snipe the larva
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On November 27 2011 14:20 Big G wrote:
Don't forget fungal growth, which could be absolutely viable with burrowed/dropped infestors. Again, the problem is that there are better targets (drones).
Thanks for mentioning infestors. I don't really consider it being a problem ( that there are better targets to be had ), the best targets are not always in sight, so you take what you can get  .
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It's something you can do if you know that your DT harass is over and you have nothing more that you can kill. Go for the larva.
This would only be good if you can't kill any drones / units and you know that your DT will be dead in ~5-10 sec. Just hit that larva. The zerg wants to make Drones after he have held the DT harass cause he knows that you are low on units so every larva you kill is essentially a drone
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What about nukes? They're already going to be used against mineral lines. Maybe using it on a maxed hatch + macro hatch would be viable with or without denying mining time?
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On November 27 2011 14:28 CuriousMoose wrote:
What about nukes? They're already going to be used against mineral lines. Maybe using it on a maxed hatch + macro hatch would be viable with or without denying mining time?
Absolutely. Even if the zerg pulls his drones and queen away, you are getting all the larva off him. Indirect damage along with direct damage on the hatch itself all in one.
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Eeh had this happen to me in a ZvT where they went blue flame, I was too busy getting my drones out of the way, hold positioning my queens and throwing my roaches at the hellions to use the larvae, but it didn't really mean too much cause' all they kill is like 2-3 larvae until I can get my roaches to deal with them if I missed their movement.
I can see this doing wonders in maxed vs maxed ZvT though, dropping blue flames to clear stockpiled larvae.
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Blizzard purposely gave them 10 armor so they couldnt be killed. If this picks up they will just up the armor.
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I remember watching TLO a long time ago do stuff like this against zerg as zerg. He would Neural the eggs which kills them automatically as well. It was cool.
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I haven't thought about fungal, but I have been aware nuking and SMing (as a Terran :D) is REALLY fucking effective, and fun xD
On November 27 2011 14:49 Mr. Nefarious wrote:
Blizzard purposely gave them 10 armor so they couldnt be killed. If this picks up they will just up the armor.
Don't agree, it would have been even higher then. I guess the BFH nerf really hurt them, but in the usual big numbers it's still about the same.
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There are still many other aspects of the game that have yet to be refined so we definitely won't see this tactic being used commonly anytime soon.
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I do this only if i can get hellions in the mineral line of the main/ natural those usually have the most larva, I can sometimes get all the larva and if its a decent zerg they'll just morph them
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Banelings kill larvae in one shot as well, wonderful to take out those shrubby ZvZers that just can't spend all their larvae instantly and just flood their base with Zerglings without them being able to do anything
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larva should be psionic honestly
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Do larva kills ping the minimap with an alert? Because I've done some dark templar larva harass myself (since they one shot them) and it's pretty easy to get a tonne of larva out of the way relatively fast before someone reacts, so I'm wondering whether alerts don't happen or something?
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I don't know how it works with races, but with Protoss DTs I've found as much success with killing larvae when drones run away, especially if I have more than 1 DT, so I can have one running behind the drones. I've found that it throws zerg off massively
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Don't forget DTs. If you dt rush a zerg but his drones are running around or he has a spore crawler covering a base, go for larvae next. They 1 shot larvae so just queue up attack commands.
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Its gonna be fun trying to storm drop and dt drop on larvae :D
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Technically missed one: overseer — killing larva by preventing them from being made.
The advantages of this is that it's not possible to stop by morphing the larva.
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The way I see it its almost always a better target available to kill than larvae.
Workers come to mind.
The only place I can see it working is ling bling wars. If you can spend one bling killing five larvae youre pretty much going to win imo.
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United Kingdom12027 Posts
On November 27 2011 13:55 absalom86 wrote:Show nested quote +On November 27 2011 13:47 Blizzard_torments_me wrote:On November 27 2011 13:40 unit wrote:
out of these i feel that ravens and high templar are the best options...ravens slightly better due to the fact that they dont need a shuttle (warp prism) to get there to kill the larvae...i like the idea and i might try to work it into my lategame PvZ Ravens? Ravens are just a waste in TvZ, and I very much doubt we will ever see them even in HoTS used in the matchup. Ravens are not a waste at all in TvZ. They may not be used much at the moment, but they have their uses especially for detection as well as point defense drones along with mech usually. The hellions will be a lot more likely to be seen on larva sniping duty than a raven, but a seeker missile is absolutely devastating if you get the hit in.
I definately think that with the Warhound the Ravenw ill be used more as Mutas become less of an annoyance and the raven will survive more often.
Sniping the larvae is a really cool idea btw, never thought of trying to kill the larvae before if there's no drones there.
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I've tried this in ZvZ and you have to be lucky in order for it to actually do anything. Good zergs will just make those larva into eggs.
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if no one said this before, DTs do the job as well. This tactic is still commonly used imo, i use it as often as i can.
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baneling larvae snipe in zvz is OLD, its generally used when you cant attack drones so you use on larvae, however ive seen dimaga using spines to target larva/eggs while spine rushing and that was i never thought off (well i almost never spine rush maybe thats why-_-)
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On November 27 2011 19:59 Xapti wrote:
Technically missed one: overseer — killing larva by preventing them from being made.
The advantages of this is that it's not possible to stop by morphing the larva.
That's already popular. Killing them off is what is mainly underused.
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nuking hatchery lategame tvz to get rid of larva is good too
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On November 28 2011 02:29 absalom86 wrote:Show nested quote +On November 27 2011 19:59 Xapti wrote:
Technically missed one: overseer — killing larva by preventing them from being made.
The advantages of this is that it's not possible to stop by morphing the larva. That's already popular. Killing them off is what is mainly underused.
wow didn't know lol =O i guess if u do that to some ultras that would be quite useful
Also guys keep in mind that late game where the main has no more resources, usually it's undefended cus well he doesn't need his army there lol. So especially if the macro hatch is there, and there's lots of larvae at each, it's easy to fly in with raven and SM both hatcheries' larvae. You could kill so many larvae :D
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I can maybe see this work in a 200 200 stalemate situation, when the zerg has no chance to turn his larvae into eggs. Snipe larvae just before you force an engagement and the Zerg will have trouble reinforcing. Only problem there: the zerg will be up to at least 4 bases that late in the game.
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Ghost rush to snipe queens is a really annoying and effective alternative
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Saw EmpireWelmu (sp?) using his phoenixes to kill larva after he killed most of the drones at an expo. Admittedly he had quite a few phoenixes, but the larva died very quickly.
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I find it very evil to kill so many infants but in all seriousness, the hellions and ravens really surprise me. You want to get hellions in your opponent's base to kill drones anyway, why not go for the larvae if his drones ran away in time? As for the raven, since larvae can't escape and the hunter seeker will instantly kill them without losing the raven unless he has mutas (although they are a very common strategy) which I find pretty interesting.
DTs do one-shot larvae but typically people go for the queen, spire or something like that when they can't get the drones. I imagine a tech building is worth more than larvae and specially the spire since it takes about a year to make.
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i think infestors are the most applicable of all of them.
quite frequently in zvz i'll burrow infestors and send one at each base. pop up, fungal larva, burrow again, go home.
it's ridiculously effective since you can then move right in with the classic roach ball against roach ball. you duke it out, lose a lot of shit.
you remax, your opponent can't. gg.
i'm always baffled when zergs try IT bombing hatches against other zergs. i don't care about my hatch since money usually isn't a problem in zvz. i can just rebuild the hatch, no problem. but don't fucking touch my larva... don't EVER touch a man's larva.
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On November 28 2011 04:21 Shinespark wrote:
I find it very evil to kill so many infants but in all seriousness, the hellions and ravens really surprise me. You want to get hellions in your opponent's base to kill drones anyway, why not go for the larvae if his drones ran away in time? As for the raven, since larvae can't escape and the hunter seeker will instantly kill them without losing the raven unless he has mutas (although they are a very common strategy) which I find pretty interesting.
DTs do one-shot larvae but typically people go for the queen, spire or something like that when they can't get the drones. I imagine a tech building is worth more than larvae and specially the spire since it takes about a year to make.
Coincidentally ( or not ) the units that are good at killing larva are horrible at killing buildings.
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I have seen this used in sling bane wars, but you need to be right on Q otherwise you will just hit eggs and waste a bane.
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I larva snipe a decent amount in the super early game (gas first reactor hellion). Many zergs try to hold their fast expand with just a queen block and sending all drones from their natural to the main for harvesting until their have a bigger army. This makes their larva vulnerable to attack, and if their queen isn't positioned well, for their queen to get harassed as well.
Better zergs will both queen block the ramp and have a spine covering the queen, but depending on the position, can still leave the larva vulnerable. But that all being said, a pretty subtle part of the matchup.
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Killing larva is a low blow, like hitting below the belt. Don't do it!
You don't see zerglings rampaging in yoru maternity wards!
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The problem with larvae sniping is that its very easy to defend against. The Zerg can simply turn them into eggs. Zergs should be spending larvae immediately when they pop anyway. You're not going to find a Hatch with more than 3 larvae that isnt protected by either queens or spinecrawlers. Both of which deal with everything that kills larvae just fine.
I think out of everything you mentioned, nukes have the most potential. Because they will kill eggs in addition to larvae. Zerg units spawn very quickly from eggs, but not faster than Nukes. The problem is that Zergs are also the most difficult race to Nuke. Between creep and overlord spread they're the most likely to see the Ghost coming. They also have the easiest way to get detection.
Sometimes you can catch a Terran with his pants down with no scan, or a Protoss with no nearby Observers. And sometimes you can hit an P/T expo that has detection but no mobile units nearby. But its so easy and quick for Zerg to get an Overseer. They can actually morph it after the nuke warning and have it finished before the Nuke lands. And Zergs will be able to get units there in time to the kill the Ghost. Even if there isn't a Queen there, or any units already hatching, or any Mutas nearby, all Zerg army moves so fast on creep that they're going to kill the Ghost.
So yeah I certainly think its viable, but its a high risk/high reward type situation. Maybe when BW pros transfer over they'll have the extra APM to pull off stunts like that. But right now theres very little reason to go to all that trouble when you can move-and-forget a 500/100 octadrop instead of a 300/200 Ghost+Nuke, or 400/300 Ghost+Nuke+Medivac.
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On November 28 2011 07:09 RoboBob wrote:
The problem with larvae sniping is that its very easy to defend against. The Zerg can simply turn them into eggs. Zergs should be spending larvae immediately when they pop anyway.
That's really not true at all. Half of late game zerg is stockpiling 10+ larvae per hatch so you can instantly reproduce after suiciding into their expansion or whatever. If a terran or protoss got into the late-game against a zerg who couldn't instantly reproduce 200 supply, they should win.
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The only important one is DTs. If you aren't swiping at larvae when drones are running, you're doing something wrong.
Perhaps infestors, in certain situations. But getting a group of lings/banelings usually better.
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In ZvZ, sure, it's a good idea. Especially seeing as how winning the ling/bling or roach/infestor wars generally falls down to macro, and missing a single inject can result in the loss of a game. However, in such circumstances, the larva should never not be in eggs, so... yeah. Possible, can be used to stop re-maxing, but other than that, it isn't going to see a lot of application.
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United States7483 Posts
On November 28 2011 07:22 ThaZenith wrote:The only important one is DTs. If you aren't swiping at larvae when drones are running, you're doing something wrong. Perhaps infestors, in certain situations. But getting a group of lings/banelings usually better.
With a DT, it's usually better to go after a tech building or the hatch rather than the larva.
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On November 28 2011 07:29 Whitewing wrote:Show nested quote +On November 28 2011 07:22 ThaZenith wrote:The only important one is DTs. If you aren't swiping at larvae when drones are running, you're doing something wrong. Perhaps infestors, in certain situations. But getting a group of lings/banelings usually better. With a DT, it's usually better to go after a tech building or the hatch rather than the larva.
If the zerg has a lair, you will never kill a hatchery unless you have like 4 DT attacking it
If a protoss goes for my pool or roach warren, I just immediately build another in another base and lose 20 seconds at most.
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On November 27 2011 20:17 Qikz wrote:Show nested quote +On November 27 2011 13:55 absalom86 wrote:On November 27 2011 13:47 Blizzard_torments_me wrote:On November 27 2011 13:40 unit wrote:
out of these i feel that ravens and high templar are the best options...ravens slightly better due to the fact that they dont need a shuttle (warp prism) to get there to kill the larvae...i like the idea and i might try to work it into my lategame PvZ Ravens? Ravens are just a waste in TvZ, and I very much doubt we will ever see them even in HoTS used in the matchup. Ravens are not a waste at all in TvZ. They may not be used much at the moment, but they have their uses especially for detection as well as point defense drones along with mech usually. The hellions will be a lot more likely to be seen on larva sniping duty than a raven, but a seeker missile is absolutely devastating if you get the hit in. I definately think that with the Warhound the Ravenw ill be used more as Mutas become less of an annoyance and the raven will survive more often. Sniping the larvae is a really cool idea btw, never thought of trying to kill the larvae before if there's no drones there.
I seriously doubt that. At least the Thor is somewhat good against Roach/Hydra/Buildings/Infestor/Queen/Ultra. In its current form, the Warhound will do nothing vs all of those because half of its already weak ground attack is vs mehanical. I guess you could make it purely for its antiair, but thats like making Corruptors vs Colossi in ZvP. Except the Corruptors can't fly.
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On November 28 2011 07:20 hmunkey wrote:Show nested quote +On November 28 2011 07:09 RoboBob wrote:
The problem with larvae sniping is that its very easy to defend against. The Zerg can simply turn them into eggs. Zergs should be spending larvae immediately when they pop anyway. That's really not true at all. Half of late game zerg is stockpiling 10+ larvae per hatch so you can instantly reproduce after suiciding into their expansion or whatever. If a terran or protoss got into the late-game against a zerg who couldn't instantly reproduce 200 supply, they should win.
In order to have 10+ larvae per hatch, there must be at least one Queen there, which just so happens to repel everything that kills larvae. Keep in mind that in the remax situation you're talking about, the Zerg is guarenteed to have good Creep and OL spread and at least 4 bases, more likely 5-6. Great, you denied 10 larvae with a 400/300 army cost investment, they will still have 30/40 larvae to remax with. Yes, you somewhat hurt their ability to remax, but is it worth removing 400/300 from the big battle? Theres no point damaging their ability to remax if their army rolls over yours and they don't need to remax.
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I think this is more of a thing that you keep in mind and use occasionaly, rather than a tactic you want to follow every single game. It will annoy zerg players, but in 99% of all cenarios losing 20 drones will hurt way more.
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Sometimes when i am doing a 2 base dt into x gate all in and i manage to get his 3rd undetected i actually leave 1 dt to kill all the larva there if he doesn't spend it right away but other then that i never kill larvas :p
Storm HTSM and helions to kill larva seems kinda pointless, it might work in a match or 2 for fun but if it actually got into the meta game at all zerg would just plant down 1 or 2 more hatch and come out way ahead if you "Larva harass: them instead of drone harassing.
Also do mutas work vs them ( Does the splash do its 1 dmg vs the other larva or are they just not affected due to the armor being 10 and the splash being like 3 or 4 ? ) ? I could see it being interesting zvz if both player go for mutas and no infestor killing his larva with aoe and doing a timing puhs ... but i am no good at zvz so idk :/
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On November 28 2011 07:47 zul wrote:
I think this is more of a thing that you keep in mind and use occasionaly, rather than a tactic you want to follow every single game. It will annoy zerg players, but in 99% of all cenarios losing 20 drones will hurt way more.
Of course you will take those drones and high priority targets when they are available, But when they are not you have an easy target to hit. 1 larva directly means 1 less unit to be made by a zerg. The ramification of losing all your larva at a wrong time, or even just 1, are devastating and game ending.
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On November 28 2011 07:39 RoboBob wrote:Show nested quote +On November 28 2011 07:20 hmunkey wrote:On November 28 2011 07:09 RoboBob wrote:
The problem with larvae sniping is that its very easy to defend against. The Zerg can simply turn them into eggs. Zergs should be spending larvae immediately when they pop anyway. That's really not true at all. Half of late game zerg is stockpiling 10+ larvae per hatch so you can instantly reproduce after suiciding into their expansion or whatever. If a terran or protoss got into the late-game against a zerg who couldn't instantly reproduce 200 supply, they should win. In order to have 10+ larvae per hatch, there must be at least one Queen there, which just so happens to repel everything that kills larvae. Keep in mind that in the remax situation you're talking about, the Zerg is guarenteed to have good Creep and OL spread and at least 4 bases, more likely 5-6. Great, you denied 10 larvae with a 400/300 army cost investment, they will still have 30/40 larvae to remax with. Yes, you somewhat hurt their ability to remax, but is it worth removing 400/300 from the big battle? Theres no point damaging their ability to remax if their army rolls over yours and they don't need to remax.
Yes it is as a maxed out Protoss or Terran that can't push into a hive tech army. If you are stalemating in the middle of the map or dancing in and out of broodlord range max army vs max army Protoss and Terran should definitely think about denying the remax for an easy win since Zerg armies are bound to lose in straight up fights.
After some thought in ZvZ if there is a big stalemate with spine crawlers or something it might even be worth it to go suicide infestors in late game situations. This is the biggest thing in ZvZ.
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Taking out a saturated mineral field or stockpiled larvae?
It would be nice if you can do both but for right now drones take more priority than larvae.
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Just to offer a brief thought on nukes to kill larva- by the time that tech is easily spendable Zerg will not feel the pain of a few larva dying. Unless you've implemented a stunningly fresh strategy that involves having nukes at the time his third goes up.
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I did this when no other targets presented themselves when I still played T.
It's a good idea, but killing drones would still be more efficient obviously.
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Trouble is, all these units, DT's, HT's, helions, blings, infestors, ghosts, can all kill drones just as effectively. There may be a possible use of infestors fungling larvae z v z, but the trouble is, why not just spawn terrans and kill his hatch/drones or just fungal the drones?... This seems like the overseer thing.You'd have to be bloody good to pull it off, and even then, it's kinda goofy. Cool idea though. Fungal seems the only viable one there, except blings maybe
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On November 27 2011 13:40 Blizzard_torments_me wrote:
Besides storm drops, I don't see the point attacking larvae post early game, and even with storm drops, it's just more effective to go for the drones.
He just stated that when someone pulls their drones away, IE.. they see the drop coming and there is nothing to kill.
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On November 27 2011 13:38 Nothingtosay wrote:
Most protosses try to kill larva with their dts if/when the drones run away. The problem with storm dropping larva however is you can never know how much larva is at a base unless zerg is not denying your obs. So yeah you can go in with the intent to hit mineral line but if you see a juicy pile of larva go for that instead.
Most protosses. This never happens in high level play. Unless you can show us a replay?
'Cause this days, whenever the drones run away DTs usually flee or attack a tech building or a queen.
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In 4v4s and 3v3s I usually mass up on Phoenix because it is fun and micro intensive. I certain situations I am unable to harrass drones and have found that you can lift up larva actually and kill them rather easily while in the air.
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In the later game stages, wouldn't archons also be quite effective against larva due to their splash and deal 35 damage to biological without any attack upgrades, which is enough to 1 hit larva.
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On November 27 2011 13:38 Inertia_EU wrote:
Although I cant see it catching on for some reason, It'd be so awesome to see someone snipe lines of larvae In a major tournament. :3
I agree, would like to see the fungal or storms on larvae that actually allow people to win their games since their opponent can't remax
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i still do it with hellions, but most zergs react to something like this with buildings units, so there won't be alot of larva. As zerg i use banelings if the larva is where the workers are basically timing my attack on their larva inject spawning hoping to get lucky  .
As toss i do it lategame, on hatches i won't kill in the next time. ht drop feedback the queen psystorm larva. As a preparation for my attack, the zerg will have most likely more overmins then me, so killing workers would hurt my attack. But shutting down a full hatch for production is in most cases really huge for my attack. Like killing a hatch that has tons of larva (they won't be on their hatch shortcut anymore hehe.)
But thats the zerg problem if they don't get macro hatches and you just position yourself where most of their unit rallies will end up in free kills.
But basically its just an opportunity you take if it presents itself. And it was never really lost, but blue flame nerf made it less appealing for terran to run by with hellions.
And lategame its often a better idea to snipe the tech, unless your fighting morrow who loves to moves his tech far away, against known tech snipers .
About the raven, i actually use it in tvz since i get medivac energy upgrade. (since my medivacs never went up to 200 energy, i thought why the hell not and no i am not losing them like crazy and even if they come back with 25 more energy, so if you lose all your medivacs it doesn't hurt that bad). The raven is quite nice to set out muta scouts aka auto turrets. And the pdd is really good to protect tanks.
The seeker i used against banes, the speed buff actually made it better there. Its pretty good to have a spotter in the front with detection too and flying so nothing can really hurt it if you have a thor or vikings guarding it from afar. But i prefer the medivac energy. But still use the raven as its awesome for pushing. And saves you tons of energy.
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On November 28 2011 09:15 CortoMontez wrote:
In the later game stages, wouldn't archons also be quite effective against larva due to their splash and deal 35 damage to biological without any attack upgrades, which is enough to 1 hit larva.
Sure, Archons would be effective as well. Perhaps the least likely option, but still valuable in rare situations.
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I noticed this last night during the leenock vs MVP game on crossfire.
Leenock was using a hatch in his wall and MVP was just attacking the hatch but then the larva popped from the inject he targeted the larva but Tastosis reacted like it was nothing out of the ordinary. It ended up not being a big deal that MVP did target the larva but it was funny that this thread was made and I ended up noticing it now in a game.
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It's a nice tactic to employ IF you happen to be in the right place, at the right time, with the right units, in the right game situation. Which is pretty rare.
99% of the time there's really no place for it, but I've had a handful of ZvZ games where I've won because I've steered a baneling into a freshly popped spawn larvae at a time where he REALLY needed those larvae to survive (4-5 larvae killed = 8-10 lings lost).
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I noticed the same thing. They died as soon as they came. That was like 5 potential roaches killed in 1 shot.
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On November 29 2011 10:03 yawnoC wrote:
I noticed this last night during the leenock vs MVP game on crossfire.
Leenock was using a hatch in his wall and MVP was just attacking the hatch but then the larva popped from the inject he targeted the larva but Tastosis reacted like it was nothing out of the ordinary. It ended up not being a big deal that MVP did target the larva but it was funny that this thread was made and I ended up noticing it now in a game.
Should expect MvP to use this, the best terran in the world Also terrans should have the easiest time doing it early game.
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Puma sniping Sheth's larva at fresh expansions with his blue flame hellions right now on NASL.
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I don't know about this.. I mean as several posters have pointed out, there are situations where you want to go for the larvae, for example if you can stall a 200 pop attack and drops HTs on every hatch...
Thing is, this is mostly only effective really lategame when the Zerg starts gathering up larvae to resupply and by then he has like 6 hatcheries so only killing the larvae on one of them isn't really doing much, but rather you need to maybe kill 50% of all the larvae. And then these drops actually become quite expensive. I always appreciate people putting down time to make reasonable posts with stats and stuff, I just think the usefulness of this is extremely limited...
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EPT
