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On November 17 2011 02:24 Hattori_Hanzo wrote:
How can the general public treat eSports seriously if we don't?
How can we expect fair play and sportsmanship when we excuse the most blatant abuse?
Here is a progamer from a top Korean team openly declaring he'll let his friend win so he can practice and even submitting the replay with the evidence, and posters are saying:
-it's good that he's honest about it,
-they're just kids
-it's good to throw matches to friends when you don't need it
-fun > all
I think most of the people are of the consensus that what he did was bad, and that he should be punished for not taking ESV weekly seriously and hurting the public image of his team, but that the punishment is really exaggerated due to people calling it "match fixing" and thus bringing back bad memories of sAviOr
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On November 17 2011 02:29 rblstr wrote:Show nested quote +On November 17 2011 02:24 Hattori_Hanzo wrote:
How can the general public treat eSports seriously if we don't?
How can we expect fair play and sportsmanship when we excuse the most blatant abuse?
Here is a progamer from a top Korean team openly declaring he'll let his friend win so he can practice and even submitting the replay with the evidence, and posters are saying:
-it's good that he's honest about it,
-they're just kids
-it's good to throw matches to friends when you don't need it
-fun > all I think most of the people are of the consensus that what he did was bad, and that he should be punished for not taking ESV weekly seriously and hurting the public image of his team, but that the punishment is really exaggerated due to people calling it "match fixing" and thus bringing back bad memories of sAviOr
Yep you summed it up perfectly. Korean starcraft is super paranoid about another savior scandal, so they're going to extremes when reacting to even a small insignificant incident like this.
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I don't think the reactions to this are all too extreme. What CoCa did was wrong, so he should definitely be punished for it. I'm just guessing that he didn't realize how much that action would blow up in his face at the moment.
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On November 17 2011 02:35 Thorax wrote:
I don't think the reactions to this are all too extreme. What CoCa did was wrong, so he should definitely be punished for it. I'm just guessing that he didn't realize how much that action would blow up in his face at the moment.
Could you explain why you think what he did was wrong? And how wrong? Just out of curiosity.
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either these two are really stupid or are trying to make a point? i feel like they must have known that they would get caught
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On November 17 2011 02:36 rblstr wrote:Show nested quote +On November 17 2011 02:35 Thorax wrote:
I don't think the reactions to this are all too extreme. What CoCa did was wrong, so he should definitely be punished for it. I'm just guessing that he didn't realize how much that action would blow up in his face at the moment. Could you explain why you think what he did was wrong? And how wrong? Just out of curiosity.
He tried to give his teammate a better chance to get a code A spot by forfeiting a match he won. What if the code S finals games had a deal made between the two players, and one would just give up. What if these matches had money thrown down in betting arenas? This is why its bad. It's a competition, a competition for a code A spot no less. If e-sports is going to be legitimate there cannot be match fixing.
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On November 17 2011 03:21 Phayze wrote:Show nested quote +On November 17 2011 02:36 rblstr wrote:On November 17 2011 02:35 Thorax wrote:
I don't think the reactions to this are all too extreme. What CoCa did was wrong, so he should definitely be punished for it. I'm just guessing that he didn't realize how much that action would blow up in his face at the moment. Could you explain why you think what he did was wrong? And how wrong? Just out of curiosity. He tried to give his teammate a better chance to get a code A spot by forfeiting a match he won. What if the code S finals games had a deal made between the two players, and one would just give up. What if these matches had money thrown down in betting arenas? This is why its bad. It's a competition, a competition for a code A spot no less. If e-sports is going to be legitimate there cannot be match fixing.
It was an ESV Weekly, not an ESV Monthly (monthlys hand out the 1 Code A spot, weeklies don't).
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Is it ok to fix matches just because it means less? A high school game is less important than a college game or a professional game so it must be alright to just fix those games isn't it? I mean, why even play them at all it's just for fun. No? Where do we draw the line? It's wrong no matter where it takes place and not punishing it just blurs the line for acceptable behavior.
Personally even in practice I would want my friend to go all out. I'm not going to get any better if he's holding my hand/not trying.
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ok, i try it again since i think nobody noticed this or it just gets ignored by the people with the forks and torches.
please take a look at the page of the affected korean weekly:
http://wiki.teamliquid.net/starcraft2/ESV_TV_Korean_Weekly/Weekly_15
there were only 6 matches played in the ro32 (16 possible matches).
the match in question was 1 out of the 6 matches that got played at all.
there were 2 forfeits even in the ro16.
this means there were people that did play no games at all and got farther in the tournament then byun who just got to ro16.
and now tell me again that this is a tournament koreans take seriously.
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On November 17 2011 03:33 Lounge wrote:
Is it ok to fix matches just because it means less? A high school game is less important than a college game or a professional game so it must be alright to just fix those games isn't it? I mean, why even play them at all it's just for fun. No? Where do we draw the line? It's wrong no matter where it takes place and not punishing it just blurs the line for acceptable behavior.
Personally even in practice I would want my friend to go all out. I'm not going to get any better if he's holding my hand/not trying.
I don't think you people watch alot of sports.... You obviously have no idea what match fixing is. Match fixing is where you pay someone money to throw a match because you have money riding on the game and stand to make alot of money. Forfeiting a game because you just don't care if you win is not match fixing.
Edit: I'm not saying what he did was okay but don't call it something that it's not.
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Did anyone listen to Idra on Inside the Game? Apparently this stuff happens all the time, players stream cheating and all that. Looks like Milkis' view of honorable Korean gaming just a farce.
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On November 17 2011 03:47 NipponBanzai wrote:Show nested quote +On November 17 2011 03:33 Lounge wrote:
Is it ok to fix matches just because it means less? A high school game is less important than a college game or a professional game so it must be alright to just fix those games isn't it? I mean, why even play them at all it's just for fun. No? Where do we draw the line? It's wrong no matter where it takes place and not punishing it just blurs the line for acceptable behavior.
Personally even in practice I would want my friend to go all out. I'm not going to get any better if he's holding my hand/not trying. I don't think you people watch alot of sports.... You obviously have no idea what match fixing is. Match fixing is where you pay someone money to throw a match because you have money riding on the game and stand to make alot of money. Forfeiting a game because you just don't care if you win is not match fixing.
Read this: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Match_fixing
And to your last phrase: Then don't fucking play in a tournament if you don't care. Simply because you wanted to "practice" isn't an excuse to join the tournament and take someone else's place, who potentially WOULD want to play seriously and win.
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To be fair the source article states the event as '‘고의 패배’', which is 'Intentional loss' in direct translation instead of match fixing. That would be 승부조작.
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I think that tournaments that match up teammates against each other will always give place to situations like this one to happen. It would be more sensitive to add rules to tournaments in case teammates meet in a match so that they can both decide who makes it to the next round previous to the match, inform the organizers and then maybe allow them to play each other for the show.
It would also be good if the added a similar system to the finals, in case two players decide that whoever wins will split the prize money in two. That way you could avoid the Fenix incident (lmao).
Again, if you are gonna respond with silly counter arguments keep in mind that I am proposing that this become a tournament design feature, not a gateway for cheating to become acceptable.
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United States10774 Posts
I think people are misjudging the significance of this situation. The fact that some folks are trying to condone or justify his actions with reasons like "he needs practice," "it is not an important match," or "he's just a kid, he's done nothing too wrong" suggests that they are missing the big picture. It is a big deal. If you let match-fixing (yes, it is a match-fixing regardless of what league it was done it or what reasons was behind it. the fact that monetary terms were not involved does not change a thing-- any purposeful losing or winning is match-fixing), where do you truly draw the line of what constitutes these punishments? Do you let someone off the hook because he was helping his friend out? Because he quote end quote wanted practice? That's bullshit. This certainly does not mean that all under-cover match fixing will disappear. I don't know how much of this stuff actually goes on. But harsh punishments must be made to stop all the incentives to do shit like this. They are old enough to realize that they are 'professionals' engagd in a spectator-competition. Hopefully this will set a tone.
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On November 17 2011 03:52 Grettin wrote:Show nested quote +On November 17 2011 03:47 NipponBanzai wrote:On November 17 2011 03:33 Lounge wrote:
Is it ok to fix matches just because it means less? A high school game is less important than a college game or a professional game so it must be alright to just fix those games isn't it? I mean, why even play them at all it's just for fun. No? Where do we draw the line? It's wrong no matter where it takes place and not punishing it just blurs the line for acceptable behavior.
Personally even in practice I would want my friend to go all out. I'm not going to get any better if he's holding my hand/not trying. I don't think you people watch alot of sports.... You obviously have no idea what match fixing is. Match fixing is where you pay someone money to throw a match because you have money riding on the game and stand to make alot of money. Forfeiting a game because you just don't care if you win is not match fixing. Read this: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Match_fixingAnd to your last phrase: Then don't fucking play in a tournament if you don't care. Simply because you wanted to "practice" isn't an excuse to join the tournament and take someone else's place, who potentially WOULD want to play seriously and win.
please read my post above and say this again...
what about all those forfeits? that's exactly the same for a tournament.
in the ro32 there were MORE forfeits than games played. ESV should be thankful they played at least so they had something to stream. the viewers of the ESV in this thread even said the matches looked not fixed, they played their best, Coca just FORFEITED after the game was decided.
jjun and tails got to the ro8 without playing AT ALL, Creator won against Macsed and Byung and then lost against jjun, how is this fair?
all the players that forfeited their matches also joined the tournament without the intention to actually play...
stop this witch hunt, this "incident" is totally blown out of proportion by people that have nothing else to complain about. you HAVE to look at each individual case in detail and there's just nothing spectacular to see here that warrants a drop from Code S and a ban from all tournaments.
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On November 17 2011 04:06 fleeze wrote:Show nested quote +On November 17 2011 03:52 Grettin wrote:On November 17 2011 03:47 NipponBanzai wrote:On November 17 2011 03:33 Lounge wrote:
Is it ok to fix matches just because it means less? A high school game is less important than a college game or a professional game so it must be alright to just fix those games isn't it? I mean, why even play them at all it's just for fun. No? Where do we draw the line? It's wrong no matter where it takes place and not punishing it just blurs the line for acceptable behavior.
Personally even in practice I would want my friend to go all out. I'm not going to get any better if he's holding my hand/not trying. I don't think you people watch alot of sports.... You obviously have no idea what match fixing is. Match fixing is where you pay someone money to throw a match because you have money riding on the game and stand to make alot of money. Forfeiting a game because you just don't care if you win is not match fixing. Read this: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Match_fixingAnd to your last phrase: Then don't fucking play in a tournament if you don't care. Simply because you wanted to "practice" isn't an excuse to join the tournament and take someone else's place, who potentially WOULD want to play seriously and win. please read my post above and say this again... what about all those forfeits? that's exactly the same for a tournament. in the ro32 there were MORE forfeits than games played. ESV should be thankful they played at least so they had something to stream. the viewers of the ESV in this thread even said the matches looked not fixed, they played their best, Coca just FORFEITED after the game was decided. jjun and tails got to the ro8 without playing AT ALL, Creator won against Macsed and Byung and then lost against jjun, how is this fair? all the players that forfeited their matches also joined the tournament without the intention to actually play... stop this witch hunt, this "incident" is totally blown out of proportion by people that have nothing else to complain about. you HAVE to look at each individual case in detail and there's just nothing spectacular to see here that warrants a drop from Code S and a ban from all tournaments.
It's not a witch hunt.
You have to first take into account that the Korean scene was recently hit very hard by the sAviOr scandal, and anything remotely close to that in the fledgling Starcraft 2 scene needs to be come down on harshly.
Furthermore, actions like that can greatly impact the legitimacy of a tournament like the ESV Korean Weekly, and something like this could lead to teammates of Code B players entering the tournament and knocking out players, only to forfeit if they come across their teammates.
There's a difference between getting a walk-over win due to a no-show player and a randomized bracket and coming up against a former teammate and friend in a tournament, beating him, and then allowing him the victory. The much more sensible option for these two in this case would be for CoCa to finish off Byun in Game 2, and then play some practice matches together, as obviously CoCa was in the tournament practicing for his all-Terran group of Code S.
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On November 17 2011 03:57 OneOther wrote:
I think people are misjudging the significance of this situation. The fact that some folks are trying to condone or justify his actions with reasons like "he needs practice," "it is not an important match," or "he's just a kid, he's done nothing too wrong" suggests that they are missing the big picture. It is a big deal. If you let match-fixing (yes, it is a match-fixing regardless of what league it was done it or what reasons was behind it. the fact that monetary terms were not involved does not change a thing-- any purposeful losing or winning is match-fixing), where do you truly draw the line of what constitutes these punishments? Do you let someone off the hook because he was helping his friend out? Because he quote end quote wanted practice? That's bullshit. This certainly does not mean that all under-cover match fixing will disappear. I don't know how much of this stuff actually goes on. But harsh punishments must be made to stop all the incentives to do shit like this. They are old enough to realize that they are 'professionals' engagd in a spectator-competition. Hopefully this will set a tone.
This isn't the way you set a tone. This is a way you start an escalation that might lead to disaster
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On November 17 2011 04:22 VirgilSC2 wrote:Show nested quote +On November 17 2011 04:06 fleeze wrote:On November 17 2011 03:52 Grettin wrote:On November 17 2011 03:47 NipponBanzai wrote:On November 17 2011 03:33 Lounge wrote:
Is it ok to fix matches just because it means less? A high school game is less important than a college game or a professional game so it must be alright to just fix those games isn't it? I mean, why even play them at all it's just for fun. No? Where do we draw the line? It's wrong no matter where it takes place and not punishing it just blurs the line for acceptable behavior.
Personally even in practice I would want my friend to go all out. I'm not going to get any better if he's holding my hand/not trying. I don't think you people watch alot of sports.... You obviously have no idea what match fixing is. Match fixing is where you pay someone money to throw a match because you have money riding on the game and stand to make alot of money. Forfeiting a game because you just don't care if you win is not match fixing. Read this: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Match_fixingAnd to your last phrase: Then don't fucking play in a tournament if you don't care. Simply because you wanted to "practice" isn't an excuse to join the tournament and take someone else's place, who potentially WOULD want to play seriously and win. please read my post above and say this again... what about all those forfeits? that's exactly the same for a tournament. in the ro32 there were MORE forfeits than games played. ESV should be thankful they played at least so they had something to stream. the viewers of the ESV in this thread even said the matches looked not fixed, they played their best, Coca just FORFEITED after the game was decided. jjun and tails got to the ro8 without playing AT ALL, Creator won against Macsed and Byung and then lost against jjun, how is this fair? all the players that forfeited their matches also joined the tournament without the intention to actually play... stop this witch hunt, this "incident" is totally blown out of proportion by people that have nothing else to complain about. you HAVE to look at each individual case in detail and there's just nothing spectacular to see here that warrants a drop from Code S and a ban from all tournaments. It's not a witch hunt. You have to first take into account that the Korean scene was recently hit very hard by the sAviOr scandal, and anything remotely close to that in the fledgling Starcraft 2 scene needs to be come down on harshly. Furthermore, actions like that can greatly impact the legitimacy of a tournament like the ESV Korean Weekly, and something like this could lead to teammates of Code B players entering the tournament and knocking out players, only to forfeit if they come across their teammates. There's a difference between getting a walk-over win due to a no-show player and a randomized bracket and coming up against a former teammate and friend in a tournament, beating him, and then allowing him the victory. The much more sensible option for these two in this case would be for CoCa to finish off Byun in Game 2, and then play some practice matches together, as obviously CoCa was in the tournament practicing for his all-Terran group of Code S.
you hit the nail on the coffin but then went back one step.
the ESV korean weekly IS a joke judging by the amount of forfeits.
it's the tournaments fault if Code A and S along with Code B players compete for a Code A spot (even Diamond already said the tournament system needs to be readjusted with a Code A spot on the line).
same is true for the ESWC qualifiers where also players competed that already had a spot and then forfeited against friends or teammates.
edit add: there is currently no confirmed Code A spot awarded.
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On November 17 2011 03:21 Phayze wrote:Show nested quote +On November 17 2011 02:36 rblstr wrote:On November 17 2011 02:35 Thorax wrote:
I don't think the reactions to this are all too extreme. What CoCa did was wrong, so he should definitely be punished for it. I'm just guessing that he didn't realize how much that action would blow up in his face at the moment. Could you explain why you think what he did was wrong? And how wrong? Just out of curiosity. He tried to give his teammate a better chance to get a code A spot by forfeiting a match he won. What if the code S finals games had a deal made between the two players, and one would just give up. What if these matches had money thrown down in betting arenas? This is why its bad. It's a competition, a competition for a code A spot no less. If e-sports is going to be legitimate there cannot be match fixing.
Again, clear misunderstanding of the situation.
They are NOT teammates.
This was NOT for a Code A spot.
This was a korean weekly tournament run by ESV, same as the EU or NA weeklys on Playhem. Just for some perspective.
They game was not "fixed", no player played a bad game to intentionally lose for any reason.
If Coca had "thrown" the game by playing bad on purpose so his NON teammate Byun could advance and get this ficticious Code A spot then there would be BIG trouble. But this is nothing, this is Coca not taking a tournament seriously enough. THATS ALL.
EDIT:
I really wish the OP was updated with all the relevant info (full game chat log, not just the end)
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EPT
