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On November 16 2011 21:59 rblstr wrote:
It is blatantly clear to me that the vast majority of people saying what a terrible thing coca did have no fucking clue what actually went on here. Coca threw the game, not so Byun would advance, not for money, not for anything other than an extra practice game vs T in tournament setting. Koreans are weird, very passionate about lynching people over nothing. This has been blown totally out of proportion.
There was no match fixing here, I think the punishment for Coca was a kneejerk reaction to the Korean community backlash. Totally ridiculous and I strongly think SlayerS should re-consider their punishment.
Stop spreading false information, Coca wanted to practice more T games, not throw the match so Byun could advance. I agree that doing what he did was wrong, he should have just won the match and asked Byun for another match, or forfeited and played the games with Byun anyway, or anything other than submitting the replays to ESV, which was a mistake. It reflects his team in a bad light and is unprofessional. SlayerS should punish on that ground, but not by kicking him out of A Team.
Many of you should re-read the whole story and correct your opinions.
Sorry but that's completely ridiculous, you don't use tournament matches to practice. Why are you blindly supporting him even after all the evidence?
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I am not able to read the Korean sources however I trust your commentary on them. I can't believe how foolish this whole situation is. Why would you ever do this, and in public no less. I can certainly see the temptation in doing this but at the same time, they said in chat that they wanted to go to a third game. This whole thing is crazy. I do think that both Coca and Byun should be punished but at the same time I feel that they should be eventually allowed back into the GSL and other SC2 tournaments.
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I think the overarching problem to this thing is what the people are going to think in future tournament matches. Now we see that this type of stuff happens, and therefore when something like MLG Providence happens, and it's IMMVP vs. IMNestea, are they both trying to win it all, or is MVP/Nestea going to throw the game because they feel bad or whatever else reason they may have?
Coca and Byun should be punished, which is happening. The bigger issue is the doubts people are going to have about the legitimacy of future matches from any tournament in the future, in my opinion.
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this incident could be easily ommited here, more shit was happening in weekly tournaments, the problem is that korea has GSL and 1 maybe 2 small tournaments, and thats all, so Korean teams have so small public exposure that they need to make "harsh" decision to create their image as "responsible", there is still big "Savior stigma" there, and those players inmature behavior (nothing more, nothing less) had to be somehow rised to the serious category. Its sad that they are being dealt there like criminals (by public). But really it shouldnt be that shocking if we remember that not so long ago, Korean Teams were only a shadow of BW ones, players basically played for food there and everything was run like a circus.
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On November 16 2011 21:59 rblstr wrote:
It is blatantly clear to me that the vast majority of people saying what a terrible thing coca did have no fucking clue what actually went on here. Coca threw the game, not so Byun would advance, not for money, not for anything other than an extra practice game vs T in tournament setting. Koreans are weird, very passionate about lynching people over nothing. This has been blown totally out of proportion.
There was no match fixing here, I think the punishment for Coca was a kneejerk reaction to the Korean community backlash. Totally ridiculous and I strongly think SlayerS should re-consider their punishment.
Stop spreading false information, Coca wanted to practice more T games, not throw the match so Byun could advance. I agree that doing what he did was wrong, he should have just won the match and asked Byun for another match, or forfeited and played the games with Byun anyway, or anything other than submitting the replays to ESV, which was a mistake. It reflects his team in a bad light and is unprofessional. SlayerS should punish on that ground, but not by kicking him out of A Team.
Many of you should re-read the whole story and correct your opinions.
You do not practice in a tournament setting, your post is absolutely mind blowing in what you are actually saying, are you really this naive or simply very young? He was punished for nothing? He made the entire SlayerS organization look very bad with his actions.
Koreans are not overreacting, its just you being very naive and believing a piss poor excuse. If everyone taught the way you did then there would pretty much be no esports, no viewers would put up with this, thus nobody would watch it.
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On November 16 2011 23:29 MasterKush wrote:Show nested quote +On November 16 2011 21:59 rblstr wrote:
It is blatantly clear to me that the vast majority of people saying what a terrible thing coca did have no fucking clue what actually went on here. Coca threw the game, not so Byun would advance, not for money, not for anything other than an extra practice game vs T in tournament setting. Koreans are weird, very passionate about lynching people over nothing. This has been blown totally out of proportion.
There was no match fixing here, I think the punishment for Coca was a kneejerk reaction to the Korean community backlash. Totally ridiculous and I strongly think SlayerS should re-consider their punishment.
Stop spreading false information, Coca wanted to practice more T games, not throw the match so Byun could advance. I agree that doing what he did was wrong, he should have just won the match and asked Byun for another match, or forfeited and played the games with Byun anyway, or anything other than submitting the replays to ESV, which was a mistake. It reflects his team in a bad light and is unprofessional. SlayerS should punish on that ground, but not by kicking him out of A Team.
Many of you should re-read the whole story and correct your opinions. Sorry but that's completely ridiculous, you don't use tournament matches to practice. Why are you blindly supporting him even after all the evidence?
Coca did. Like I said, it wasn't the best thing to do, but he had his reasons. Why are you blindly supporting the notion that he "match fixed" when he clearly didn't?
On November 17 2011 00:19 Tyree wrote:
You do not practice in a tournament setting, your post is absolutely mind blowing in what you are actually saying, are you really this naive or simply very young? He was punished for nothing? He made the entire SlayerS organization look very bad with his actions.
Koreans are not overreacting, its just you being very naive and believing a piss poor excuse. If everyone taught the way you did then there would pretty much be no esports, no viewers would put up with this, thus nobody would watch it.
So please tell me what do you think happened?
As I've already explained, he shouldn't have thrown the game / submitted the replays as actual games to be casted. But he played the matches to the best of his ability, and won 2 of them. I don't understand the hate here. The only thing Coca is guilty of is that he didn't take a tournament seriously and thus potentially damaged the reputation of his team. Its only fair his team punish him for this. However, the punishment is extremely harsh and i think too many people have the wrong idea of what went wrong here.
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On November 16 2011 21:20 Pangpootata wrote:Show nested quote +On November 16 2011 21:00 Oktyabr wrote:On November 16 2011 20:45 gulati wrote:
This is the Korean Weekly. This isn't an MLG or IPL, sorry to say. The reaction from people trying to white-knight eSports and the internet is wildly perplexing. Calm the fuck down, they are young kids who are jokingly talking in-game. So what if he said lets do another game. Isn't there a reason why the community recognizes "Major Tournaments" versus "Online Tournaments"?
People don't understand the severity of certain issues. Stephano's contract situation is a severe issue, since it's a precedent for eSports and strengthening it. Protecting this, aka, saying Coca was wrong, is hurting eSports, because you are essentially removing the human element from the game, and causing robotic interference. At this rate, just fucking ban chat in general.
Disgraceful by all parties who concur that Coca acted in a poor fashion. He did nothing to cause me to believe he is not a professional; maybe if he acted like this at a "major lan event", then I would concur. However, as it stands, anybody who dissents seriously needs to re-think what example this is setting, because I can't see anything positive coming from having KeSPA 2.0 essentially. So what's the lower limit on an event? What does it depend on? The prizepool and the viewership? Essentially if it's low enough you can fuck around with its integrity, right? Guess which team is Coca on? Guess what does the founder actually believe in? It's not at all hard to see why Korean netizens want to nail the two of them to a cross already. This is the best possible outcome for Coca, the alternative being him leaving Slayers and joining a foreigner team. Haha. The founder of Coca's team is someone who makes use of loopholes in rules and game exploits to win (refer to allied mines incident). Coca exploiting an unwritten rule to lose is actually less bad than doing so to win.
Except that when he used them there was no rule against that. So your comparision makes no sense at all
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Isn't forfeit a valid form of defeat?
A player can forfeit a match if he wants to. Much like Idra with Nerchio?
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Screw this match... I want to know what happened in the Nestea code S matches...
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On November 17 2011 01:15 Zeevo wrote:
Isn't forfeit a valid form of defeat?
A player can forfeit a match if he wants to. Much like Idra with Nerchio?
That's an interesting question. Say if I was winning a match, but decided to forfeit, for whatever reason, does that count?
If so then this just got even more silly.
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On November 17 2011 01:15 Zeevo wrote:
Isn't forfeit a valid form of defeat?
A player can forfeit a match if he wants to. Much like Idra with Nerchio?
A forfeit is an option as long as the player doesnt see himself winning. This applies to chess more then anything and is often used.
Not when it is agreed upon to gain an angle advantage. That is tournament manipulation.
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On November 16 2011 23:29 MasterKush wrote:Show nested quote +On November 16 2011 21:59 rblstr wrote:
It is blatantly clear to me that the vast majority of people saying what a terrible thing coca did have no fucking clue what actually went on here. Coca threw the game, not so Byun would advance, not for money, not for anything other than an extra practice game vs T in tournament setting. Koreans are weird, very passionate about lynching people over nothing. This has been blown totally out of proportion.
There was no match fixing here, I think the punishment for Coca was a kneejerk reaction to the Korean community backlash. Totally ridiculous and I strongly think SlayerS should re-consider their punishment.
Stop spreading false information, Coca wanted to practice more T games, not throw the match so Byun could advance. I agree that doing what he did was wrong, he should have just won the match and asked Byun for another match, or forfeited and played the games with Byun anyway, or anything other than submitting the replays to ESV, which was a mistake. It reflects his team in a bad light and is unprofessional. SlayerS should punish on that ground, but not by kicking him out of A Team.
Many of you should re-read the whole story and correct your opinions. Sorry but that's completely ridiculous, you don't use tournament matches to practice. Why are you blindly supporting him even after all the evidence?
Says who? The weekly EU tournaments are considered good practice for many pros when they have nothing else on the schedule. You get to practice tournement play which often differs from ladder play.
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On November 17 2011 01:24 rblstr wrote:Show nested quote +On November 17 2011 01:15 Zeevo wrote:
Isn't forfeit a valid form of defeat?
A player can forfeit a match if he wants to. Much like Idra with Nerchio? That's an interesting question. Say if I was winning a match, but decided to forfeit, for whatever reason, does that count? If so then this just got even more silly.
Yes, if you posted ingame that you were going to let your opponent win so you can practice one more game in a tournament.
Because an honest man cheats openly according to some posters.
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On November 17 2011 01:29 wizshaw2 wrote:Show nested quote +On November 17 2011 01:15 Zeevo wrote:
Isn't forfeit a valid form of defeat?
A player can forfeit a match if he wants to. Much like Idra with Nerchio? A forfeit is an option as long as the player doesnt see himself winning. This applies to chess more then anything and is often used. Not when it is agreed upon to gain an angle advantage. That is tournament manipulation.
Call it what you want, it happens frequently, and will continue to do so as long as we have teams and team houses.
Say player A and player B signs up for a qualifier and are playing from the same team house. Player A really really wants/needs to qualify while player B will to 99% not be able to attend the main event but signs up for good practice, fun and the distance minor possibility he'll be able to attend. They play through the brackets and finally ends up playing eachother at a late stage of the tournament. How is player B supposed to play his A-game vs his good friend player A who sits right next to him? Of course he can't. He decides to forfeit the game and player A proceeds and qualifies for the main event.
This, from the aspect of an outsider, happened not too long ago and I was upset about if at first. But when I gave it some more thought I realized I would do the same and so would we all. Right now it seems to be common practice and an acceptable thing to do, and for a good reason, as long no one knows about it. But when it reaches the eyes of the public you'll be compared to SaviOr and whatnot. Seems fucked up to me.
I think this would be a good topic for ITG or SotG, it would be interesting to hear the pro's view on this.
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On November 17 2011 01:47 Longshank wrote:Show nested quote +On November 16 2011 23:29 MasterKush wrote:On November 16 2011 21:59 rblstr wrote:
It is blatantly clear to me that the vast majority of people saying what a terrible thing coca did have no fucking clue what actually went on here. Coca threw the game, not so Byun would advance, not for money, not for anything other than an extra practice game vs T in tournament setting. Koreans are weird, very passionate about lynching people over nothing. This has been blown totally out of proportion.
There was no match fixing here, I think the punishment for Coca was a kneejerk reaction to the Korean community backlash. Totally ridiculous and I strongly think SlayerS should re-consider their punishment.
Stop spreading false information, Coca wanted to practice more T games, not throw the match so Byun could advance. I agree that doing what he did was wrong, he should have just won the match and asked Byun for another match, or forfeited and played the games with Byun anyway, or anything other than submitting the replays to ESV, which was a mistake. It reflects his team in a bad light and is unprofessional. SlayerS should punish on that ground, but not by kicking him out of A Team.
Many of you should re-read the whole story and correct your opinions. Sorry but that's completely ridiculous, you don't use tournament matches to practice. Why are you blindly supporting him even after all the evidence? Says who? The weekly EU tournaments are considered good practice for many pros when they have nothing else on the schedule. You get to practice tournement play which often differs from ladder play.
You're comparing EU Weekly to the fucking ESV? To the GSL? To IPL? To MLG?
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On November 17 2011 02:15 Fruscainte wrote:
You're comparing EU Weekly to the fucking ESV? To the GSL? To IPL? To MLG?
Are you comparing ESV monthly to ESV weekly?
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On November 17 2011 02:10 Longshank wrote:
I think this would be a good topic for ITG or SotG, it would be interesting to hear the pro's view on this.
On ITG or SotG the pro's never seem to have a solid understanding of this kind of stuff, its always frustrating to watch the VOD only to have all the pros either say they are unaware of what happened, or just don't know the full story. A shame really because I always watch these shows to get some kind of insider insight, and never do 
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On November 17 2011 01:24 rblstr wrote:Show nested quote +On November 17 2011 01:15 Zeevo wrote:
Isn't forfeit a valid form of defeat?
A player can forfeit a match if he wants to. Much like Idra with Nerchio? That's an interesting question. Say if I was winning a match, but decided to forfeit, for whatever reason, does that count? If so then this just got even more silly.
If you forfeit, you TELL THE ORGANISERS. Which is what DeMusliM did in the bo5 game vs IdrA. He talked to the organiser after winning 2-1 - as the screenshot and stream VOD shows - found out that it's supposed to be a bo5 and that the tournament is on a date he can't make, and then he announces his intention to forfeit vs IdrA and vs Axslav. This is the proper way of doing it!
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How can the general public treat eSports seriously if we don't?
How can we expect fair play and sportsmanship when we excuse the most blatant abuse?
Here is a progamer from a top Korean team openly declaring he'll let his friend win so he can practice and even submitting the replay with the evidence, and posters are saying:
-it's good that he's honest about it,
-they're just kids
-it's good to throw matches to friends when you don't need it
-fun > all
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On November 17 2011 02:23 Jinsho wrote:Show nested quote +On November 17 2011 01:24 rblstr wrote:On November 17 2011 01:15 Zeevo wrote:
Isn't forfeit a valid form of defeat?
A player can forfeit a match if he wants to. Much like Idra with Nerchio? That's an interesting question. Say if I was winning a match, but decided to forfeit, for whatever reason, does that count? If so then this just got even more silly. If you forfeit, you TELL THE ORGANISERS. Which is what DeMusliM did in the bo5 game vs IdrA. He talked to the organiser after winning 2-1 - as the screenshot and stream VOD shows - found out that it's supposed to be a bo5 and that the tournament is on a date he can't make, and then he announces his intention to forfeit vs IdrA and vs Axslav. This is the proper way of doing it!
But just out of curiosity, would the forfeit count if i decided at the end of a winning game to forfeit?
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EPT
