If I were Coca I'd just leave SlayerS and join a foreign team. Not worth giving up your Code S spot over something like this. I'm quite confident that a number of foreign teams e.g. EG would overlook this whole incident as quite unnecessary. Sure it will be stressful and Coca will probably have a lot of Korean haters but if he can handle those then it will be worth it.
I don't know why they're trying to set an example on two young players habits. If anything it just makes SlayerS and the GSL look unprofessional imo. Ban from ESTV if you want but seriously threaten to kick him out of the team unless he agrees to leave the house and not to play in tournaments? I think these Koreans need to learn to emphasis with other people more. It was not intentional so no need for a huge overreaction. You can't spread e-sports internationally if you let your pride and ego dominate your decision making.
Why should this be illegal? The player should be free to lose if he so wishes. What's next, punish people for nuking themselves as bm?
Then where do you draw the line? If teammates are allowed to work out deals on the side to screw a non-teammate over in a Round Robin or something, how do you stop this? Are you saying you are okay with this? After all, a player is just losing the game because he wants to, right? This makes no sense, and it harms the spirit of competition. That's not how fair competition is supposed to work. It's not just the individual choosing to lose; it can have far-reaching consequences on the tournament itself and other players indirectly involved. I can't imagine how much of a joke these tournaments would be if players are allowed to "lose" games on purpose because they desire to, in order to help friends/teammates or whatever the reason may be. This isn't about individual freedom, it's about protecting the competition.
Why should this be illegal? The player should be free to lose if he so wishes. What's next, punish people for nuking themselves as bm?
In this regard I'd rather let the player have full freedom. If he wishes to play with 1 game handicap in an official series, because he sees that as better challenge for his self-development goals, he should be allowed to just leave a game.
Then where do you draw the line? If teammates are allowed to work out deals on the side to screw a non-teammate over in a Round Robin or something, how do you stop this? Are you saying you are okay with this? After all, a player is just losing the game because he wants to, right? This makes no sense, and it harms the spirit of competition. That's not how fair competition is supposed to work. It's not just the individual choosing to lose; it can have far-reaching consequences on the tournament itself and other players indirectly involved. I can't imagine how much of a joke these tournaments would be if players are allowed to "lose" games on purpose because they desire to, in order to help friends/teammates or whatever the reason may be. This isn't about individual freedom, it's about protecting the competition. I don't see how you can possibly make that argument.
Last MLG, some guy threw 2 games on purpose against whitera and he was praised as a hero for good sportsmanship. Sure whitera being late put him down 0-2, so that's why the guy did it. However, that wasn't his fault and he purposely threw the first 2 games and didn't try to win to help out a fan favourite! Horrible matchfixing!
It was not fair to give whitera an unfair advantage by throwing those 2 games because an upset could have occurred. However since whitera won it affected the outcome of the rest of the bracket and anyone who had to face whitera.
On November 17 2011 06:08 cold- wrote: what a joke. they should have warned him, not kick him out of code s. also hilarious how they say he withdrew when he obviously was forced to do so. abusive and primitive really.
and from where have you got all these information?
Probably from here: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=285580¤tpage=7#134 When your team approaches you in the way SlayerS did (before even properly investigating the case - there was no time, they acted immediately), if you are someone as loyal and honor-driven as Coca, of course you will comply, even if what you did was not as it's been interpreted. He didn't really have option, because they also forbid him to play any official matches. He could leave the team, but most of all he's not that type of person, he has too much respect for his team and elders there; but even if he was the type to leave, there wouldn't be very good prospect for him finding a new team etc.
I already read that. I know that Coca gave up the Code S spot. my question is, where does it stand, that Coca didn't want to leave Code S but was forced? And why does everybody think all the Koreans are so "honorable" and what not? And what's with "he is not the type of person"? I see that all over TL used for many players and Teams. It looks more like subconscious wishful thinking what a player should do from a TL-user standpoint. PS: I don't particular mean you figq. It's just an observation i found everywhere here on TL
I'll quote the part then: "Also, by the meaning of self-reflect, SlayerS will ban Coca to any Starcraft 2 matches inside of Korea and rest of the world. This decision is for an indefinite period, and Coca will be back to SC2 when he is ready."
As you see, what SlayerS did, gives him only 2 options - leave Code S, or leave SlayerS. By the way, I certainly see why SlayerS would overreact, this is a huge taboo and stigma, and even the mention of anything resembling "match-fixing" would trigger extreme reaction. I understand that.
About his character, I've been following his path and stream from before he was even that famous or successful, and have gained insight about his character from his actions. He's a highly moral person, but also likes to set high challenges for himself, like handicaps and such.
Why should this be illegal? The player should be free to lose if he so wishes. What's next, punish people for nuking themselves as bm?
In this regard I'd rather let the player have full freedom. If he wishes to play with 1 game handicap in an official series, because he sees that as better challenge for his self-development goals, he should be allowed to just leave a game.
Then where do you draw the line? If teammates are allowed to work out deals on the side to screw a non-teammate over in a Round Robin or something, how do you stop this? Are you saying you are okay with this? After all, a player is just losing the game because he wants to, right? This makes no sense, and it harms the spirit of competition. That's not how fair competition is supposed to work. It's not just the individual choosing to lose; it can have far-reaching consequences on the tournament itself and other players indirectly involved. I can't imagine how much of a joke these tournaments would be if players are allowed to "lose" games on purpose because they desire to, in order to help friends/teammates or whatever the reason may be. This isn't about individual freedom, it's about protecting the competition. I don't see how you can possibly make that argument.
Last MLG, some guy threw 2 games on purpose against whitera and he was praised as a hero for good sportsmanship. Sure whitera being late put him down 0-2, so that's why the guy did it. However, that wasn't his fault and he purposely threw the first 2 games and didn't try to win to help out a fan favourite! Horrible matchfixing!
Why should this be illegal? The player should be free to lose if he so wishes. What's next, punish people for nuking themselves as bm?
In this regard I'd rather let the player have full freedom. If he wishes to play with 1 game handicap in an official series, because he sees that as better challenge for his self-development goals, he should be allowed to just leave a game.
Then where do you draw the line? If teammates are allowed to work out deals on the side to screw a non-teammate over in a Round Robin or something, how do you stop this? Are you saying you are okay with this? After all, a player is just losing the game because he wants to, right? This makes no sense, and it harms the spirit of competition. That's not how fair competition is supposed to work. It's not just the individual choosing to lose; it can have far-reaching consequences on the tournament itself and other players indirectly involved. I can't imagine how much of a joke these tournaments would be if players are allowed to "lose" games on purpose because they desire to, in order to help friends/teammates or whatever the reason may be. This isn't about individual freedom, it's about protecting the competition. I don't see how you can possibly make that argument.
Last MLG, some guy threw 2 games on purpose against whitera and he was praised as a hero for good sportsmanship. Sure whitera being late put him down 0-2, so that's why the guy did it. However, that wasn't his fault and he purposely threw the first 2 games and didn't try to win to help out a fan favourite! Horrible matchfixing!
I mean, I don't support that either
I'm not saying what coca and byun did was right. However, it's super common to do in these small time tourneys and happens all the time, but it's just not as blatant. The punishment is a huge overreaction and the most that should have happened was them being banned from the esv weekly.
Stephano and bratok played a series with both trying to lose because neither wanted to face sen. Hongun threw a game against Nada in one gsl because if hongun won he would have faced a teammate, check prime I think. However, since neither of these players were as blatant, although it was obvious to all what was going on, and nothing happened to them.
Coca and Byun are being unfairly made an example of for match fixing, when really what did they was barely match fixing in the sense of savior when everyone thinks about match fixing. It was just a friend helping out another friend which happens a lot. Coca could have 6 pooled both games on purpose and lost and no one would have said a word. People do dumb builds all the time to help out a friend and aren't called out on match fixing, when it's essentially the same thing.
Why should this be illegal? The player should be free to lose if he so wishes. What's next, punish people for nuking themselves as bm?
In this regard I'd rather let the player have full freedom. If he wishes to play with 1 game handicap in an official series, because he sees that as better challenge for his self-development goals, he should be allowed to just leave a game.
Then where do you draw the line? If teammates are allowed to work out deals on the side to screw a non-teammate over in a Round Robin or something, how do you stop this? Are you saying you are okay with this? After all, a player is just losing the game because he wants to, right? This makes no sense, and it harms the spirit of competition. That's not how fair competition is supposed to work. It's not just the individual choosing to lose; it can have far-reaching consequences on the tournament itself and other players indirectly involved. I can't imagine how much of a joke these tournaments would be if players are allowed to "lose" games on purpose because they desire to, in order to help friends/teammates or whatever the reason may be. This isn't about individual freedom, it's about protecting the competition. I don't see how you can possibly make that argument.
Last MLG, some guy threw 2 games on purpose against whitera and he was praised as a hero for good sportsmanship. Sure whitera being late put him down 0-2, so that's why the guy did it. However, that wasn't his fault and he purposely threw the first 2 games and didn't try to win to help out a fan favourite! Horrible matchfixing!
I mean, I don't support that either
well that's just dickheaded.
rules are rules and they are there for a reason, ok i agree with that. but there is so much match fixing where players just throw games and they don't get punished. by this logic idra should not be able to compete in GSL because of ESWC quali btw...
you HAVE to look on each INDIVIDUAL case and don't apply the rules that strictly just because they are rules.
Match fixing is cheating, plain and simple. If 100% of all fixed tournament matches could be detected, every single perpetrator should be punished.
But since it is not possible to detect all match fixing, the E-Sports tournament community has a duty to punish match fixers if they can prove that they committed this offense, and this is one of those cases.
Though, the differences between the Savior incident and this one are very significant, one being premeditated while the other being apparently spur-of-the-moment.
On November 17 2011 07:32 FrostFire626 wrote: Match fixing is cheating, plain and simple. If 100% of all fixed tournament matches could be detected, every single perpetrator should be punished.
But since it is not possible to detect all match fixing, the E-Sports tournament community has a duty to punish match fixers if they can prove that they committed this offense, and this is one of those cases.
That's like saying stealing is stealing, plain and simple. Sure stealing is stealing, but there are various degrees of stealing such as grand larceny or stealing a pack of gum from a store.
There are various degrees of match fixing too. What savior did is the highest example and should be punished to the max like he was. What coca and byun did falls on the petty scale of match fixing, but the punishment handed out was disproportionate to the degree of match fixing.
On November 17 2011 07:32 FrostFire626 wrote: Match fixing is cheating, plain and simple. If 100% of all fixed tournament matches could be detected, every single perpetrator should be punished.
But since it is not possible to detect all match fixing, the E-Sports tournament community has a duty to punish match fixers if they can prove that they committed this offense, and this is one of those cases.
That's like saying stealing is stealing, plain and simple. Sure stealing is stealing, but there are various degrees of stealing such as grand larceny or stealing a pack of gum from a store.
There are various degrees of match fixing too. What savior did is the highest example and should be punished to the max like he was. What coca and byun did falls on the petty scale of match fixing, but the punishment handed out was disproportionate to the degree of match fixing.
We also have to realize that Korea holds it's progamers to different standards than foreigners do. What may warrant a slap on the wrist here could be a near unforgivable offense there. That culture of integrity and discipline appears to correlate with success, so perhaps it's something that we should emulate.
And Coca and Byun don't appear to be banned from the sport in any way, merely suspended for an indefinite amount of time. I don't think this punishment is as damning as people make it out to be. The hits to each player's reputation alone outweighs this in my opinion.
Miniature Savor incident. Enough said. Or maybe they were just fooling around and had a drink too much and got all light-hearted about their match, it happens.
I guess I don't necessarily see how it's cheating to just throw a match on purpose if nothing prior was discussed. No one is under any obligation to win a game that they don't want to. Unfortunately for these guys, discussing it in the chat is not very smart. How did they expect this to be interpreted and why didn't they anticipate consequences. Strange. It almost seems like more of a joke to me since I would imagine that both are relatively intelligent to be playing starcraft at such a high level.
On November 17 2011 07:32 FrostFire626 wrote: Match fixing is cheating, plain and simple. If 100% of all fixed tournament matches could be detected, every single perpetrator should be punished.
But since it is not possible to detect all match fixing, the E-Sports tournament community has a duty to punish match fixers if they can prove that they committed this offense, and this is one of those cases.
That's like saying stealing is stealing, plain and simple. Sure stealing is stealing, but there are various degrees of stealing such as grand larceny or stealing a pack of gum from a store.
There are various degrees of match fixing too. What savior did is the highest example and should be punished to the max like he was. What coca and byun did falls on the petty scale of match fixing, but the punishment handed out was disproportionate to the degree of match fixing.
We also have to realize that Korea holds it's progamers to different standards than foreigners do. What may warrant a slap on the wrist here could be a near unforgivable offense there. That culture of integrity and discipline appears to correlate with success, so perhaps it's something that we should emulate.
And Coca and Byun don't appear to be banned from the sport in any way, merely suspended for an indefinite amount of time. I don't think this punishment is as damning as people make it out to be. The hits to each player's reputation alone outweighs this in my opinion.
It is for Coca. He loses his Code S spot and has to start over from Code B. He also has to leave the SlayerS training house.
On November 17 2011 07:32 FrostFire626 wrote: Match fixing is cheating, plain and simple. If 100% of all fixed tournament matches could be detected, every single perpetrator should be punished.
But since it is not possible to detect all match fixing, the E-Sports tournament community has a duty to punish match fixers if they can prove that they committed this offense, and this is one of those cases.
That's like saying stealing is stealing, plain and simple. Sure stealing is stealing, but there are various degrees of stealing such as grand larceny or stealing a pack of gum from a store.
There are various degrees of match fixing too. What savior did is the highest example and should be punished to the max like he was. What coca and byun did falls on the petty scale of match fixing, but the punishment handed out was disproportionate to the degree of match fixing.
This actually is kinda spot on imo. If you steal a pack of gum and get caught you might have to pay like a 50$ fine and get a scolding, but this is like exile for committing petty crime -.- I mean gosh its not even shoplifting... hope Coca comes back soon...
On November 17 2011 07:32 FrostFire626 wrote: Match fixing is cheating, plain and simple. If 100% of all fixed tournament matches could be detected, every single perpetrator should be punished.
But since it is not possible to detect all match fixing, the E-Sports tournament community has a duty to punish match fixers if they can prove that they committed this offense, and this is one of those cases.
That's like saying stealing is stealing, plain and simple. Sure stealing is stealing, but there are various degrees of stealing such as grand larceny or stealing a pack of gum from a store.
There are various degrees of match fixing too. What savior did is the highest example and should be punished to the max like he was. What coca and byun did falls on the petty scale of match fixing, but the punishment handed out was disproportionate to the degree of match fixing.
We also have to realize that Korea holds it's progamers to different standards than foreigners do. What may warrant a slap on the wrist here could be a near unforgivable offense there. That culture of integrity and discipline appears to correlate with success, so perhaps it's something that we should emulate.
And Coca and Byun don't appear to be banned from the sport in any way, merely suspended for an indefinite amount of time. I don't think this punishment is as damning as people make it out to be. The hits to each player's reputation alone outweighs this in my opinion.
No I agree, the degree of punishment handed out is 100% due to cultural differences and because of the savior incident.
For me it is less bad if they discuss it in the chat, than if they made it secretly. The fact that they talked openly about it shows that they were not aware that they did something wrong. This is also, why I would have prefered a less hard punishment, like a monetary punishment (and ban from ESV, but not GSL).
On November 17 2011 07:42 Camdeon wrote: I guess I don't necessarily see how it's cheating to just throw a match on purpose if nothing prior was discussed. No one is under any obligation to win a game that they don't want to. Unfortunately for these guys, discussing it in the chat is not very smart. How did they expect this to be interpreted and why didn't they anticipate consequences. Strange. It almost seems like more of a joke to me since I would imagine that both are relatively intelligent to be playing starcraft at such a high level.
From reading the reply it seems like they were just joking around about the game, and Coca left at the spur of a moment. But it's hard to say for sure, which is why you have to just nail them based on what happened.
I didn't watch Game 3, so I don't know if that was fishy or obvious or what. But if you're going to throw a game pre-determined, you don't crush someone then leave. That's just inane.
On November 17 2011 07:42 Camdeon wrote: I guess I don't necessarily see how it's cheating to just throw a match on purpose if nothing prior was discussed. No one is under any obligation to win a game that they don't want to. Unfortunately for these guys, discussing it in the chat is not very smart. How did they expect this to be interpreted and why didn't they anticipate consequences. Strange. It almost seems like more of a joke to me since I would imagine that both are relatively intelligent to be playing starcraft at such a high level.
From reading the reply it seems like they were just joking around about the game, and Coca left at the spur of a moment. But it's hard to say for sure, which is why you have to just nail them based on what happened.
I didn't watch Game 3, so I don't know if that was fishy or obvious or what. But if you're going to throw a game pre-determined, you don't crush someone then leave. That's just inane.
If you read the full chat log of the game you get a clear picture of what happened.. unfortunately the OP doesn't include that, or much info at all actually
EPT
hope Coca comes back soon...
