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On November 15 2011 15:42 jsemmens wrote:Show nested quote +
Exactly. The point is how disgustingly the people here are overreacting simply hopping onto the Korean's bandwagon; while at the same time some of these are the same people that cheered when Stephanos and Bratok throw away their games, or when White-Ra( or was it someone else, can't remember) throw away two games at MLG cuz he doesn't agree with the extended series rule. And yet, here are two 17 years old friends, and without knowing better, throwing a won game 2 so they can have a third game; and these people are saying it's comparable to Savior incident and that they should ruin this kid's career? Absolutely disgusting.
I don't think anyone wants to "ruin" Coca's career. I do think it is fair for there to be some form of punishment. It seems like being banned from professional play for 6 weeks (ESV's punishment for the players) isn't too harsh to me.
Right, that isn't harsh for ESV, but the main punishment in question isn't just that. He is being forced to withdraw from the only league that matters; must re-qualify starting from Code B (and we all know how hard that is) IF he even gets to play again (and who knows when that is); demoted by his team, forced to leave the team house (where all the good practices are from) for who knows how long again.
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On November 15 2011 15:35 Loweryder wrote:
What this boils down to is a lack of professionalism, a form of meta-BM if you will, from both players involved. What needs to be understood is that if their respective teams feel that supplemental discipline is necessary in order for them to remain on the team (in order to limit the 'negative image' caused by this event), they are fully allowed to demand that CoCa or Byun not participate in any tournaments, while they are a member of the team. NOTHING is preventing CoCa from just leaving SlayerS, and continuing to play in his Code S matches.
In the civilized labor world we have this things called contracts that serve the specific purpose of laying down the employer and the employee with their rights and duties. As far as we know, every single player in SlayerS is working under a contract, especially after the incident with TSL and EG in regards to PuMa's transfer. And even though we don't know the details about said contract, they just don't make clauses that allow a player to unilaterally resign whenever he wants. That goes against the whole purpose of signing a contract in the first place.
This being said, he can not just walk away from being punished. And he probably understands that himself. Career wise, he would be finish if he would leave the team on his own terms. Now if SlayerS ends up releasing him, that's a total different ball game.
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Tough situation... I mean, they could easily fix it so it's not obvious the Code S player is letting his Code B teammate win.
I think they should
A) Provide the option to just let teammates give each other WOs to avoid issues such as this.
or
B) Not allow code S players to compete in the korean weekly.
I don't think Coca should be pulled from Code S. What he did was let a teammate advance instead of himself in a tournament, because doing so would advance help his teammate moreso than himself. Those sort of "fake games" are bad for sc2, but I can't completely fault the players. It is the system that lies at fault.
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The 2 friends were fooling around in a freaking online cup that means nothing (sorry Diamond), now his career is basically in shambles.
There are many things i love about the korean culture, but this kind of disprportionate treatment by his team and punishment of a 17 year old is not one of them.
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On November 15 2011 15:37 kiy0 wrote:Show nested quote +On November 15 2011 13:35 dde wrote:
i wonder if he will leave slayers and start looking for foreign team If he does end up leaving SlayerS, what team manager in his sane mind would give a contract to a player that practices match fixing?
Happens all the time in foreign tournaments and nobody says a thing. I'm sure many foreign teams would like to have him.
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On November 15 2011 15:46 Fubi wrote:Show nested quote +On November 15 2011 15:42 jsemmens wrote:
Exactly. The point is how disgustingly the people here are overreacting simply hopping onto the Korean's bandwagon; while at the same time some of these are the same people that cheered when Stephanos and Bratok throw away their games, or when White-Ra( or was it someone else, can't remember) throw away two games at MLG cuz he doesn't agree with the extended series rule. And yet, here are two 17 years old friends, and without knowing better, throwing a won game 2 so they can have a third game; and these people are saying it's comparable to Savior incident and that they should ruin this kid's career? Absolutely disgusting.
I don't think anyone wants to "ruin" Coca's career. I do think it is fair for there to be some form of punishment. It seems like being banned from professional play for 6 weeks (ESV's punishment for the players) isn't too harsh to me. Right, that isn't harsh for ESV, but the main punishment in question isn't just that. He is being forced to withdraw from the only league that matters; must re-qualify starting from Code B (and we all know how hard that is) IF he even gets to play again (and who knows when that is); demoted by his team, forced to leave the team house (where all the good practices are from) for who knows how long again.
CoCa will be back in Code S in no time IMO. But I still agree that it's harsh. They should have just kicked him out of the house for awhile and ostracize him for a couple of weeks. But I think he agreed with the punishment, or else he would have just left SlayerS.
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On November 15 2011 15:45 FairForever wrote:Show nested quote +On November 15 2011 15:40 Kiyo. wrote:On November 15 2011 15:39 anrimayu wrote:On November 15 2011 15:38 Termit wrote:On November 15 2011 15:37 kiy0 wrote:On November 15 2011 13:35 dde wrote:
i wonder if he will leave slayers and start looking for foreign team If he does end up leaving SlayerS, what team manager in his sane mind would give a contract to a player that practices match fixing? Probably all of them. And that's why you're not a Korean SC2 team manager. Otherwise, you would've lost all your fans and sponsors for your team. And that's why you should read nested quotes. They're talking about foreign teams, who clearly don't mind when this happens(Millenium, EG, etc) ?? Which players from Mill and EG? The primary ones I can think of are TT1 (ex-fnatic), Haypro (Liquid), Dimaga (mTw)... I can't think of any others immediately off the top of my head.
Stephano, Demuslim/IdrA/Axslav, BratOK -- heck, Morrow and Sjow actually matchfixed. It's not a problem for foreign teams. It's the Korean ones who wouldn't touch him.
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On November 15 2011 15:37 _Depression wrote:Show nested quote +On November 15 2011 15:32 Sephyr wrote:On November 15 2011 15:12 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:On November 15 2011 15:04 Redmark wrote:On November 15 2011 14:57 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:On November 15 2011 14:49 slytown wrote:
How is this match fixing? A: He didn't gain anything. It's not match fixing.
"dishonest activity to make sure that one team wins a particular sports match" ~http://dictionary.cambridge.org/dictionary/british/match-fixing Maybe because match-fixing isn't necessarily relient on you gaining something tangible? Surely he was doing something nice for his friend, right? That's gaining something for himself. What if I fixed a match as a third party so that an enemy of mine automatically lost, but all I gained was the satisfaction of that man's misery? (Such a thing doesn't even have to be premeditated necessarily, either.) Still match-fixing, but I didn't profit economically from it. He didn't do it to the extent that Savior did, but throwing the game was match-fixing, by definition. And everyone else who worked hard in that tournament gets screwed over by playing fairly and not getting free wins. It doesn't matter if it was a spur of the moment decision or not; he still cheated. And it doesn't matter if he makes money off the decision or not; he still broke the tournament rules by making sure that one player progressed when he shouldn't have. That's match-fixing (specifically by throwing his own game). Ironically in this case it's more like honest activity, given that they blared it out on the chat. More seriously, how is this different from simply not showing up? What is the additional cost to the tournament or the fans of showing up and then losing? What if you 6-pool, and then feel so bad about it you decide to 15-hatch next game even if you knew you could win by rushing again? What if you realize that the other player is that much better than you and a-click your workers? The only difference is that they were dumb enough to say it out loud. Seriously? If you show up and lose, then you're at least being respectful to the tournament and the other players. Better luck next time! If you don't show up, then you're not respecting the tournament and all the hard work everyone's done. Pretty dumb move. If you show up and cheat (what Coca did), then you're not respecting the tournament, the hard work everyone's done, you're screwing over every other player that's participating in the tournament, you're disrespecting the way the game and tournaments work in general, and you end up causing the fans to start questioning every single game that's ever been played and going to be played. Pretty much the worst thing you can do. Savior epitomized that, and we don't need anything (even the tiniest match-fixing controversy) to remind us. In organised sports, match fixing, game fixing, race fixing, or sports fixing occurs as a match is played to a completely or partially pre-determined result, violating the rules of the game and often the law.
Cricket's definition of match-fixing Occurs when a player is offered money to lose a match. If a player is deemed, by the umpire, to have deliberately got out, deliberately missed catches, or deliberately bowled extras, then the player shall be banned from taking part in the rest of the match. I've even quoted two definitions of what match-fixing mean. They both imply that the person who'll throw the match is being paid/will get an advantage out of it. Now apply it to this situation. Does it fit? No. Now, again I do agree that this really isn't on, but the punishments are way too harsh. Actually, that first definition has no mention of advantage or payment. Just that match-fixing is playing a game to a completely or partially pre-determined result. By saying mid-game "Hey, can you let me win," and get the response "Sure," that's pre-determining the result.
Yeah but's widely acknowledge'd that match-fixing happens for the persons own benefit. Am I right? Also, the definition states that the game is played under a completely or partially pre-determined state; yet the CoCa game was played right till' the end before it all happened, therefore meaning that the game up until that moment wasn't pre-determined. It's then classed as a thrown game. Something Idra loves to do.
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NOOOOO My liquibet! 
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On November 15 2011 15:48 kiy0 wrote:Show nested quote +On November 15 2011 15:35 Loweryder wrote:
What this boils down to is a lack of professionalism, a form of meta-BM if you will, from both players involved. What needs to be understood is that if their respective teams feel that supplemental discipline is necessary in order for them to remain on the team (in order to limit the 'negative image' caused by this event), they are fully allowed to demand that CoCa or Byun not participate in any tournaments, while they are a member of the team. NOTHING is preventing CoCa from just leaving SlayerS, and continuing to play in his Code S matches. In the civilized labor world we have this things called contracts that serve the specific purpose of laying down the employer and the employee with their rights and duties. As far as we know, every single player in SlayerS is working under a contract, especially after the incident with TSL and EG in regards to PuMa's transfer. And even though we don't know the details about said contract, they just don't make clauses that allow a player to unilaterally resign whenever he wants. That goes against the whole purpose of signing a contract in the first place. This being said, he can not just walk away from being punished. And he probably understands that himself. Career wise, he would be finish if he would leave the team on his own terms. Now if SlayerS ends up releasing him, that's a total different ball game.
What makes you certain that he has signed a contract with them though? Puma incident might have given teams the idea that they should sign contracts, but what makes you think that all of them signed contracts. SlayerS is after all still in essence a clan. They have over 20 players in their TLPD and as far as we know, and it's not going to be easy to sign all of them to contracts, particularly when there's no wage involved.
It's much safer to assume that Koreans don't sign contracts or pay wages to their players.
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Poll: Should what these two players did be legal?No (73) 70% Yes (31) 30% 104 total votes Your vote: Should what these two players did be legal? (Vote): Yes
(Vote): No
This to me is totally fine. No money was involved, it is done in many sports like F1 to let their other driver win. It is a flawed system is people can drop games to benefit them.
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On November 15 2011 15:51 babylon wrote:Show nested quote +On November 15 2011 15:45 FairForever wrote:On November 15 2011 15:40 Kiyo. wrote:On November 15 2011 15:39 anrimayu wrote:On November 15 2011 15:38 Termit wrote:On November 15 2011 15:37 kiy0 wrote:On November 15 2011 13:35 dde wrote:
i wonder if he will leave slayers and start looking for foreign team If he does end up leaving SlayerS, what team manager in his sane mind would give a contract to a player that practices match fixing? Probably all of them. And that's why you're not a Korean SC2 team manager. Otherwise, you would've lost all your fans and sponsors for your team. And that's why you should read nested quotes. They're talking about foreign teams, who clearly don't mind when this happens(Millenium, EG, etc) ?? Which players from Mill and EG? The primary ones I can think of are TT1 (ex-fnatic), Haypro (Liquid), Dimaga (mTw)... I can't think of any others immediately off the top of my head. Stephano, Demuslim/IdrA/Axslav, BratOK -- heck, Morrow and Sjow actually matchfixed. It's not a problem for foreign teams. It's the Korean ones who wouldn't touch him.
Idra threw his nasl season 1 playoffs as well, against sjow I think.
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On November 15 2011 15:51 babylon wrote:Show nested quote +On November 15 2011 15:45 FairForever wrote:On November 15 2011 15:40 Kiyo. wrote:On November 15 2011 15:39 anrimayu wrote:On November 15 2011 15:38 Termit wrote:On November 15 2011 15:37 kiy0 wrote:On November 15 2011 13:35 dde wrote:
i wonder if he will leave slayers and start looking for foreign team If he does end up leaving SlayerS, what team manager in his sane mind would give a contract to a player that practices match fixing? Probably all of them. And that's why you're not a Korean SC2 team manager. Otherwise, you would've lost all your fans and sponsors for your team. And that's why you should read nested quotes. They're talking about foreign teams, who clearly don't mind when this happens(Millenium, EG, etc) ?? Which players from Mill and EG? The primary ones I can think of are TT1 (ex-fnatic), Haypro (Liquid), Dimaga (mTw)... I can't think of any others immediately off the top of my head. Stephano, Demuslim/IdrA/Axslav, BratOK -- heck, Morrow and Sjow actually matchfixed. It's not a problem for foreign teams. It's the Korean ones who wouldn't touch him.
And the question is, why didn't the foreign community speak up and give this sort of reaction when these player you listed threw away their games? Obviously most of these people are just jumping onto the bandwagon when they see the Koreans doing it. Pretty retarded.
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he doesn't need to give up his code S spot, what is he thinking lol
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Just for the record, if you want to know the actual rule that was considered broke is word for word here, from the Korean Weekly players handbook:
"3: No cheating. This includes but is not limited to, hacks, third-party programs, minimap enlargement tools, automated scripts, “macro keys”. This also includes people messaging you in game, or account sharing/playing under an ID you did not register for. Any cheating of any kind will be dealt with harshly and we will also forward the incident to both GOM TV and the Korean Players Association, along with other notable Non-Korean tournament organizers (Teamliquid, NASL, MLG, etc). We take this VERY seriously. Not every type of cheating is covered here, but if there is a new method of cheating we don’t cover currently, it still counts. Do not test this rule. Note that violation of this rule is an automatic forfeiture of your prize money you earned in the event that the violation occurred in."
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seriously giving up a code S for that? reading the conversation it looks more like friends goofing around than evil scheme to fix match... Don't over react because of savior's matter. No CoCa makes me sad, hope he comes back soon
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On November 15 2011 15:53 pdd wrote:Show nested quote +On November 15 2011 15:48 kiy0 wrote:On November 15 2011 15:35 Loweryder wrote:
What this boils down to is a lack of professionalism, a form of meta-BM if you will, from both players involved. What needs to be understood is that if their respective teams feel that supplemental discipline is necessary in order for them to remain on the team (in order to limit the 'negative image' caused by this event), they are fully allowed to demand that CoCa or Byun not participate in any tournaments, while they are a member of the team. NOTHING is preventing CoCa from just leaving SlayerS, and continuing to play in his Code S matches. In the civilized labor world we have this things called contracts that serve the specific purpose of laying down the employer and the employee with their rights and duties. As far as we know, every single player in SlayerS is working under a contract, especially after the incident with TSL and EG in regards to PuMa's transfer. And even though we don't know the details about said contract, they just don't make clauses that allow a player to unilaterally resign whenever he wants. That goes against the whole purpose of signing a contract in the first place. This being said, he can not just walk away from being punished. And he probably understands that himself. Career wise, he would be finish if he would leave the team on his own terms. Now if SlayerS ends up releasing him, that's a total different ball game. What makes you certain that he has signed a contract with them though? Puma incident might have given teams the idea that they should sign contracts, but what makes you think that all of them signed contracts. SlayerS is after all still in essence a clan. They have over 20 players in their TLPD and as far as we know, and it's not going to be easy to sign all of them to contracts, particularly when there's no wage involved. It's much safer to assume that Koreans don't sign contracts or pay wages to their players.
Just to add to this, it'd have to be a pretty shitty contract to allow Slayers to do whatever they want to the player and still force him to stay on the team.
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Its not wise for Coca to sign with a foreign team and ostracize himself from the Korean scene. I think Slayers is actually helping him with the harsh punishment so fans will not call for further punishment.
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I think both teams did the right thing. Coca and Byun would be forever haunted by this incident had they not been punished- there'd always be that doubt. This way, they can both clear the air a bit before they continue competing, which I"m sure they will.
Besides, it's unlikely that this will last past February. Indefinite sounds scarier than it actually is, and I think everyone involved in deciding the punishment recognizes the actual scope of the scandal- immature, inappropriate, but not malicious.
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Well if byun really told coca to leave in game 3 then it is pretty bad, but not as bad as the blizzcon finals - I still believe nestea threw that last game.
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EPT
