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Wow 2 good players out of the GSL, shame
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On November 15 2011 15:21 McFeser wrote:
They should do an emergancy vote on who should fill Coca's code S spot. This really messes up the bracket (Maybe even giving the spot back to IdrA).
Gom have dealt with forfeits before (Idra, Rain, Liveforever). They'll either give a defloss for all CoCa's matches and hold a wildcard tournament to take CoCa's place probably in the Up/Downs or just give him a defloss in the Up/Downs also. Then next season they'll just give 1 extra qualifier slot for Code A.
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On November 15 2011 15:29 Termit wrote:Show nested quote +On November 15 2011 15:21 Diamond wrote:On November 15 2011 15:20 HeroHenry wrote:
Shouldn't ESV review the replay to make sure something like this isn't shown? We broadcast roughly 50+ games a week. We would not only have to pre scan them but send them to a translator to get screened. I'm working very hard to learn Korean but I am having a lot of difficulty. Pre scanning is really not an option for us at this point. You can use sc2gears for that if you didn't know. It would be a quick way to check in the future. Best option would be to just not allow chatting tho.
Yea in game chat is a 100% a instant forfeit now aside for glhf (or any way of saying glhf) and gg (we will always lovingly accept "Zizi yo" as terms of surrender).
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haha! Its like they have no clue what matchfixing is.
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Not sure whether I am more sad that Coca is gone now, or that some few people start comparing him to saviour. It is a difference whether you match fix for money or just because you want to help a friend, and it is a difference whether you do it in a small weekly cup or in one of the most prestigious tournaments there is out there. Nevertheless, I admire that Coca took his punishment so smoothly. If it was the western scene, an apology probably would have been enough. But the korean scene sadly needs something like this... <.<
Nevertheless, I hope that dust will settle over this matter soon and we can see him back in code S.
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On November 15 2011 15:12 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:Show nested quote +On November 15 2011 15:04 Redmark wrote:On November 15 2011 14:57 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:On November 15 2011 14:49 slytown wrote:
How is this match fixing? A: He didn't gain anything. It's not match fixing.
"dishonest activity to make sure that one team wins a particular sports match" ~http://dictionary.cambridge.org/dictionary/british/match-fixing Maybe because match-fixing isn't necessarily relient on you gaining something tangible? Surely he was doing something nice for his friend, right? That's gaining something for himself. What if I fixed a match as a third party so that an enemy of mine automatically lost, but all I gained was the satisfaction of that man's misery? (Such a thing doesn't even have to be premeditated necessarily, either.) Still match-fixing, but I didn't profit economically from it. He didn't do it to the extent that Savior did, but throwing the game was match-fixing, by definition. And everyone else who worked hard in that tournament gets screwed over by playing fairly and not getting free wins. It doesn't matter if it was a spur of the moment decision or not; he still cheated. And it doesn't matter if he makes money off the decision or not; he still broke the tournament rules by making sure that one player progressed when he shouldn't have. That's match-fixing (specifically by throwing his own game). Ironically in this case it's more like honest activity, given that they blared it out on the chat. More seriously, how is this different from simply not showing up? What is the additional cost to the tournament or the fans of showing up and then losing? What if you 6-pool, and then feel so bad about it you decide to 15-hatch next game even if you knew you could win by rushing again? What if you realize that the other player is that much better than you and a-click your workers? The only difference is that they were dumb enough to say it out loud. Seriously? If you show up and lose, then you're at least being respectful to the tournament and the other players. Better luck next time! If you don't show up, then you're not respecting the tournament and all the hard work everyone's done. Pretty dumb move. If you show up and cheat (what Coca did), then you're not respecting the tournament, the hard work everyone's done, you're screwing over every other player that's participating in the tournament, you're disrespecting the way the game and tournaments work in general, and you end up causing the fans to start questioning every single game that's ever been played and going to be played. Pretty much the worst thing you can do. Savior epitomized that, and we don't need anything (even the tiniest match-fixing controversy) to remind us.
Cheat? You cheat in order to gain an advantage for yourself. CoCa did it to give his old team-mate an extra chance. He ended up LOSING the third round and dropping out of the tournament. How has CoCa gained from any of this? Nothing. His intentions weren't as malicious as everyone is making it out to be. If anything, it seemed like the crowd didn't even mind. It was extra matches between two good players. Who DOESN'T want that? The only person who didn't benefit from this was CoCa himself.
Yes, it's fair to say that it's disrespectful to SlayerS and that he should be punished.. but enough with the bullshit of match-fixing and relating it to the sAviOr match-fixing incident. This pales in comparison to it.
In organised sports, match fixing, game fixing, race fixing, or sports fixing occurs as a match is played to a completely or partially pre-determined result, violating the rules of the game and often the law.
Cricket's definition of match-fixing Occurs when a player is offered money to lose a match. If a player is deemed, by the umpire, to have deliberately got out, deliberately missed catches, or deliberately bowled extras, then the player shall be banned from taking part in the rest of the match.
I've even quoted two definitions of what match-fixing mean. They both imply that the person who'll throw the match is being paid/will get an advantage out of it.
Now apply it to this situation. Does it fit? No.
Now, again I do agree that this really isn't on, but the punishments are way too harsh.
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Even though the game was not for a Code A spot (as stated by Mr Chae), ESV did hand out Code A seems for GSL Nov and it is possible that the players may have thought that there are Code A spots up for grabs. I'm not suggesting that the players colluded to give Byun a chance at those spots but consider this when thinking about the "match-fixing".
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Slayers tweet:
teamslayers Team SlayerS
We are incredibly sorry for the CoCa incidence. We are going to release a full press-release soon.
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They clearly didn't think this was that serious tournament. I mean the game is going to be casted or replay available and they openly say it in chat they'd want to have a win. Indeed they have to be punished so that they understand how shitty move it was, but they definately don't deserve something severe like 2 year bans.
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On November 15 2011 14:28 babylon wrote:Show nested quote +On November 15 2011 14:25 jinixxx123 wrote:On November 15 2011 14:21 Redmark wrote:
It's not match-fixing, Christ.
It's dumb, but it's not match-fixing. Not everyone in jail committed murder. Some of them are there for a couple of nights for getting drunk and punching a guy. so what would you call this? throwing a game? you make no sense, This is match fixing. It was intentional of coca to loose the game. I'd call it throwing a game. No third-party money involved, no premeditated "I'm going to lose so you can advance." Not match-fixing, IMO.
Match fixing: Lern2English
In organised sports, match fixing, game fixing, race fixing, or sports fixing occurs as a match is played to a completely or partially pre-determined result, violating the rules of the game and often the law.
How is forfeiting a game against a player that happens to be your friend who told you to leave mid-game NOT match-fixing?
How is this fair play? Is this how you respect the organisers, sponsors and fans who came to EXPERIENCE a Starcraft 2 match but instead got them colluding on LIVE BROADCAST to pre-determine a match?
That is messed up... srsly.
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On November 15 2011 15:31 Oktyabr wrote:Show nested quote +On November 15 2011 15:27 setzer wrote:On November 15 2011 15:14 NMx.StyX wrote:On November 15 2011 15:08 Dodgin wrote:On November 15 2011 15:06 setzer wrote:On November 15 2011 15:00 NMx.StyX wrote:On November 15 2011 14:57 setzer wrote:On November 15 2011 14:52 windsupernova wrote:On November 15 2011 14:47 setzer wrote:On November 15 2011 14:42 windsupernova wrote:
[quote]
Gom didn´t enforce anything. It was the teams. The teams themeselves decided the punishment.
Last time I checked GSL isn't a team league and has nothing to do with this particular ESV. If I was causing disruptive behavior in the local supermarket I wouldn't get a ban from all the restaurants in the city. Why should CoCa be removed from a party with no affiliation to this incident? Because it reflects negatively on GSL? No, that is silly. Ummm, Gom didn´t enforce anything? This is like you causing disruptive behavior in the local supermarket and your parents finding out and grounding you for a month. I'm not entirely convinced this wasn't a mutual decision between SlayerS and GOM, not am I convinced CoCa, on his own accord, forfeited his Code-S spot. Or think for a minute, and maybe it was slayersboxer, the owner of slayers, and the iconic figure from bw that probably should keep his players intact with appropriate punishments regardless of age? Or maybe the punishment is an overreaction and we should all hold hands and sing kumbaya. If true, why is Boxer allowed to choose which of his players can play in Code-S and who can't? Regardless of any behavior, GSL isn't a team league and there is no requirement to be on a team in order to participate in GSL. Last I checked it was CoCa who earned that spot and any decision to leave should be made only by him or the league. Sure, CoCa could have defied the Emperor and his team, destroyed his reputation in the korean scene and became teamless and continued to play in the GSL. He choose to save what honor he had left and take the high road with his punishment. You don't understand korean culture so you have no reason to comment on it. ^this. Setzer, read what you wrote and think for a minute before you click on post. No really... you don't even need to be in korean culture to understand this, its just common sense. Do you not know who slayersboxer is? Would this behavior been allowed in broodwar even for b teamers? no, and where did slayersboxer come from? I think the word started with brood and ended with war. Well if you read my previous post you would see I express my doubts CoCa made the decision of his own volition and not without internal pressure from SlayerS. Any respectable sports league in the world would have a players union immediately filing a complaint with the league and a lengthy review handed. What happens in SC2? A spontaneous reaction only hours after that is imo a huge overreaction probably made because the Korean public wants nothing less than a beheading for anyone that conspires in "match-fixing" (even though this wasn't technically match-fixing, at least not like the BW scandal). In the end CoCa made a bad decision but his decision should be met with equal enforcement. I don't find it acceptable to cut off a person's hand when they steal and I don't find it acceptable for SlayerS to force (and imo they did force) CoCa to remove himself from participation of all tournaments. The penalty enforced by ESV should be more than enough. If Coca wasn't happy with what Slayers was telling him to do, he could always leave the team voluntarily. I guess he treasured staying on the team more than his Code S spot. Furthermore, even if Slayers didn't tell him to drop it, GSL could always take it away from him, sort of like how they barred Choya from taking part in the teamleague when he was involved in the ladder incident.
His progaming career would be pretty much ruined if he left. No Korean team would touch him, so SlayerS is basically the only team he has a chance with.
Gosh, can you imagine having Boxer disappointed at you? =/
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ESV should just cancel all the tournaments and give taeja first place in all of them. that way they'd save all this drama.
stinks for coca but he should have known better.
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On November 15 2011 15:33 Azzur wrote:
Even though the game was not for a Code A spot (as stated by Mr Chae), ESV did hand out Code A seems for GSL Nov and it is possible that the players may have thought that there are Code A spots up for grabs. I'm not suggesting that the players colluded to give Byun a chance at those spots but consider this when thinking about the "match-fixing".
Cella was personally informed that there was no Code A slot secured a week or two before.
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This an extremely unfortunate event that will no doubt influence CoCa and Byun's image, in addition to their respective teams, for the rest of their pro-gaming career. Considering the current information we have at hand, it would seem that there was no intent prior to the match for CoCa to intentionally lose, and this incident occurred due to the inability of both players to comprehend the potential fallback of their actions, taking into account the recent turmoil that has been occuring in SC2 concerning match fixing. It seems that this incident is quite separate from what would normally constitute 'match fixing', unless it is shown that CoCa intentionally lost his series to give his teammate a chance at gaining a Code A/S spot (although whether or not such a spot was available from this tournament doesn't seem to be clear at the moment).
What this boils down to is a lack of professionalism, a form of meta-BM if you will, from both players involved. What needs to be understood is that if their respective teams feel that supplemental discipline is necessary in order for them to remain on the team (in order to limit the 'negative image' caused by this event), they are fully allowed to demand that CoCa or Byun not participate in any tournaments, while they are a member of the team. NOTHING is preventing CoCa from just leaving SlayerS, and continuing to play in his Code S matches. However, due to this incident, it is quite possible that not many teams would be willing to pick up these players, despite their talent. Thus, the players are (for the foreseeable future) deciding to comply with the wishes of their teams in their own best interest.
I do believe that the punishment handed out by both teams was unnecessarily harsh (a PERMANENT tournament ban for Byun??), but that is at their discretion. I would like for either CoCa, or Byun, or both, to release an apology / explanation, so that the community can hear their side of the story before becoming ferally enraged at the faint whispers of the words 'match fixing'. I also hope that these players will be able to redeem themselves at some point in the future, and that this is not career-ending for either of them, as they still have a lot of talent and skill.
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On November 15 2011 15:22 megablargh wrote:Show nested quote +On November 15 2011 15:16 anrimayu wrote:On November 15 2011 15:13 qwazar wrote:
R1CH is correct.
This is not match fixing. Match fixing is when the outcome of the match is determined BEFORE the match starts. This is not technically what happened. Both players went into the game wanting victory. It was only when Byan asked for Coca to forfeit was then the match decided in Byun's favor. Byun (and Coca as an accomplice) is guilty of winning a match through nontraditional and unsportsmanlike means.
What baffles me is how ESV allowed this to air before sorting it out properly (casted from replays) and where was the referee in all this? Allowing this to happen shows how unprofessional the organization is.
People are wound up too tight about this in the wrong way. This is not the BW match fixing situation. It's an isolated incident, and the first where such a punishment has been enforced, where a kid mad a terrible mistake in which the repercussions were obviously not outlined to him. Obviously punishment is in order, but nothing more than a message which says that things like this are not acceptable. The fact that Coca's GSL career has been damaged is far too harsh.
The irony of the situation is that people are so divided on this issue its doing far more damage than the actual incident itself. I personally, will not give a cent to any eSports organization until Coca receives his Codes S spot back. Nope, you're wrong. At the start of game 2, Coca told Byun that he can have the game. If you don't know, don't assume things. Even if Coca told Byun he could have the game, he was flat out WINNING before he left. If it was match fixing, then that was the most obvious shit in the world, but it's not, so they were obviously trolling and playing around.
It's not clear from your post, so I just want to make sure you know that Coca had over 150 supply on 5 base and Byun had under 50 supply with no mining bases but his main largely intact. Byun politely asked Coca to leave and Coca did. I'm not sure if you can consider it match fixing because they didn't seem to have it planned from the start, but it's probably worse because of how obvious it was. Just that Coca let Byun win game 2 was ridiculous, and I don't really care what happened in game 3 because it looks rigged.
I also don't think that Coca would have voluntarily lost his code S spot if he wasn't giving Byun the easy win. If he wasn't guilty then he would have come clean when he was confronted and there would be a debate. It sound like Coca rolled over because he knew he gave Byun the win with the intent of fixing the result of the Bo3 match.
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damn it, coca is one of my favorite players  i really hope he gets his shit together and returns to slayers/gsl
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They did something pretty fucking stupid, got punished and have to deal with the consequences. Hopefully they learned a lesson. I will give them a new chance.
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On November 15 2011 15:32 Sephyr wrote:Show nested quote +On November 15 2011 15:12 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:On November 15 2011 15:04 Redmark wrote:On November 15 2011 14:57 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:On November 15 2011 14:49 slytown wrote:
How is this match fixing? A: He didn't gain anything. It's not match fixing.
"dishonest activity to make sure that one team wins a particular sports match" ~http://dictionary.cambridge.org/dictionary/british/match-fixing Maybe because match-fixing isn't necessarily relient on you gaining something tangible? Surely he was doing something nice for his friend, right? That's gaining something for himself. What if I fixed a match as a third party so that an enemy of mine automatically lost, but all I gained was the satisfaction of that man's misery? (Such a thing doesn't even have to be premeditated necessarily, either.) Still match-fixing, but I didn't profit economically from it. He didn't do it to the extent that Savior did, but throwing the game was match-fixing, by definition. And everyone else who worked hard in that tournament gets screwed over by playing fairly and not getting free wins. It doesn't matter if it was a spur of the moment decision or not; he still cheated. And it doesn't matter if he makes money off the decision or not; he still broke the tournament rules by making sure that one player progressed when he shouldn't have. That's match-fixing (specifically by throwing his own game). Ironically in this case it's more like honest activity, given that they blared it out on the chat. More seriously, how is this different from simply not showing up? What is the additional cost to the tournament or the fans of showing up and then losing? What if you 6-pool, and then feel so bad about it you decide to 15-hatch next game even if you knew you could win by rushing again? What if you realize that the other player is that much better than you and a-click your workers? The only difference is that they were dumb enough to say it out loud. Seriously? If you show up and lose, then you're at least being respectful to the tournament and the other players. Better luck next time! If you don't show up, then you're not respecting the tournament and all the hard work everyone's done. Pretty dumb move. If you show up and cheat (what Coca did), then you're not respecting the tournament, the hard work everyone's done, you're screwing over every other player that's participating in the tournament, you're disrespecting the way the game and tournaments work in general, and you end up causing the fans to start questioning every single game that's ever been played and going to be played. Pretty much the worst thing you can do. Savior epitomized that, and we don't need anything (even the tiniest match-fixing controversy) to remind us. Show nested quote +In organised sports, match fixing, game fixing, race fixing, or sports fixing occurs as a match is played to a completely or partially pre-determined result, violating the rules of the game and often the law.
Show nested quote + Cricket's definition of match-fixing Occurs when a player is offered money to lose a match. If a player is deemed, by the umpire, to have deliberately got out, deliberately missed catches, or deliberately bowled extras, then the player shall be banned from taking part in the rest of the match. I've even quoted two definitions of what match-fixing mean. They both imply that the person who'll throw the match is being paid/will get an advantage out of it. Now apply it to this situation. Does it fit? No. Now, again I do agree that this really isn't on, but the punishments are way too harsh.
Actually, that first definition has no mention of advantage or payment. Just that match-fixing is playing a game to a completely or partially pre-determined result. By saying mid-game "Hey, can you let me win," and get the response "Sure," that's pre-determining the result.
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Real shame to see Coca gone. He clearly wasn't thinking and just wanted to help a friend. Since he was so blatant and everything I really wish he got a very stern warning and people were told that if something like this ever happens again they will be hell to pay.
Coca was a strong zerg. Is just a real shame to see a top level player go out for such a silly mistake.
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On November 15 2011 13:35 dde wrote:
i wonder if he will leave slayers and start looking for foreign team
If he does end up leaving SlayerS, what team manager in his sane mind would give a contract to a player that practices match fixing?
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EPT
