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+ Show Spoiler +On November 10 2011 14:24 Pantagruel wrote:Show nested quote +On November 10 2011 14:10 17Sphynx17 wrote:
IGN and Twitchtv sent guys to help.
If you look at it from a big picture scenario, there was no one really who has done such an event, other than Mineski for PGF of this scale for SC2. As such you could say majority are minors. IGN and Twitchtv gave training wheels to these "minors" to help them get this event running properly but what happened was they had to actually RUN the event and not just help.
So again, we should not expect Sponsors to take responsibility every time an event fails miserably. They sponsored the event to help the "vision" come true and help it. HELP and NOT SHOULDER RESPONSIBILITY.
I guess that's where we differ in opinion then. I feel companies who sponsor an event with their brand name and money are partly responsible for the outcome of the event. Basically you are giving your money to an untrustworthy individual who with it, did a lot of harm to a number of people. Your failure in judgement helped allow this to happen. I don't place all blame on IGN, I just feel like they can't walk away from this scott free either, and they aren't. I just don't feel its right that all the vitriol and blame is directed at one individual and that IGN is being praised for this event. IGN's poor judgement has contributed to this situation as well and that should be recognized.
We can agree to have differing opinions about this but here's my followup on it. What if we took out IGN from the equation and simply went with the other sponsors for this event. It was still technically a sponsored event. Razer, Nvidia, Palit, Globe, Cougar, Connexys, Chimei, Western Digital, EMAXX. See http://ppsl.tv/ for the list of sponsors on the poster other than twitch.tv and IGN.
Assuming we took out IGN and twitch.tv who is then supposed to be the next in line to take responsibility among the sponsors? If you can also see the writing it was "powered" by PPSL and Team AZK. Never was it mentioned that it was "powered" by IPL.
EDIT: We should be fair and equal to the sponsors as well in how we view and treat them. You may be just pointing our finger at IPL to take responsibility because they run similar events/games. Globe was the ISP provider should we also call them out on the bandwidth? We never knew what the agreement was. The specs of the PCs of some of the gaming rigs were never up to par, should we also blame the sponsors who supplied them as well and have them take responsibility? Also, sponsors don't necessarily give out cash, some of them lend/give equipment for use and prizes for the event. Just because IPL/IGN is the company that has a promised sum of money to the event, does that make them financially liable for the event's shortfalls?
So the next in line to take respnsibility for me for PPSL is not IPL/IGN but rather team AZK. They may go bankrupt, but they are the partners in this not IGN.
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Thank you for not giving up on supporting the Filipino SC2 esports scene! 
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17Sphynx17
I suspect if you take IGN out of the equation there would be no funds left and thusly no event. Yes there are a number of other sponsors but I strongly suspect they didnt actually provide any money to run the event, or very little. I guess nobody really knows what the finances were for this event save for what IGN provided.
SnackySnacks
I doubt Gus has any money. I don't think he's an elaborate scam artist, I think he's just a dude who tried to pimp his team and claim glory for a big time event who was way over his head. Because he has no experience in management he badly misjudged (or didnt judge at all) the finances required to run the event. If he really wanted to pocket the money and run he woulda done so right off the bat and the prize money wouldn't have been paid, he wouldn't have contacted TGR at the hotel at all and he woulda been gone. Thats not the case. Gus should be held accountable. Unfortunately, I suspect there is little he can do financially to help all the people he is now indebted to. I imagine if IGN does not help in this respect no one will.
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IGN already had their brand tarnished for their association with AZK and PPSL.
As far as responsibility goes, that's what they're accountable for. The reliability that they can make good decisions to which organizations they give their resources to.
Pantagruel, you seem to not realize what sponsorship entails a sponsor if you think IGN is walking away from this scratch free. Ever heard of the saying a "person is as good as the company he keeps"? The same applies to businesses, if a company ran around sponsoring events that turn into gigantic clusterfucks, that a huge black mark on them, that means the manage is unable to properly utilize their resources and have a poor sense of judgement.
Of course the smudge on IGN's name is nowhere near as bad as that, still the damage to their name has already been done. I mean do you think that in the relatively blooming industry that is eSports, having something like that mess the PPSL shat out associated with your company's name isn't damaging at all?
IGN is responsible for making good decisions, they messed up and fessed up. The guy in charge admitted that he went against better judgement and advice from his own team. He could have been a douche and said "Hey don't blame me for pouring $14k into a mismanaged event, how could I know that this Gus guy was a moron?" Instead he took responsibility for the poor decision and the effect it had on IGN's brand.
If IGN goes beyond the terms of their contract and provides extra help, that's cool. That'd be down right awesome. But they are in no way supposed to do that. That'll be charity and good will on their part. Not something they need to do because they're responsible for the crap that went on.
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+ Show Spoiler +On November 10 2011 14:49 Pantagruel wrote:
17Sphynx17
I suspect if you take IGN out of the equation there would be no funds left and thusly no event. Yes there are a number of other sponsors but I strongly suspect they didnt actually provide any money to run the event, or very little. I guess nobody really knows what the finances were for this event save for what IGN provided.
SnackySnacks
I doubt Gus has any money. I don't think he's an elaborate scam artist, I think he's just a dude who tried to pimp his team and claim glory for a big time event who was way over his head. Because he has no experience in management he badly misjudged (or didnt judge at all) the finances required to run the event. If he really wanted to pocket the money and run he woulda done so right off the bat and the prize money wouldn't have been paid, he wouldn't have contacted TGR at the hotel at all and he woulda been gone. Thats not the case. Gus should be held accountable. Unfortunately, I suspect there is little he can do financially to help all the people he is now indebted to. I imagine if IGN does not help in this respect no one will.
Yup, I agree. We don't have the "books" for the PPSL and all the agreements verbal or written between all parties to Team AZK/Gus.
As for what he can do, someone from sc2sea and the other Gus/PPSL thread has said. He should really take out a loan to pay for the others he aggrevated/needs to pay.
I said this before in a post but here in the philippines you could take out a Cash Advance check from your credit card based on the remaining available balance to your credit limit. I doubt Gus doesn't have a credit card and let alone just 1. He uses that to pay off the most immediate expense, Amanda's air ticket and it's his job to find a way to pay it off.
I think it would be to his best interest to do so and he could ask IGN for the 7k usd agreed upon once confirmation of clearing of the payment from the airfare tickets has been confirmed.
As for the other matters/expenses, well it's their job to pay for them. Team AZK and Gus and no one else's. They headed the event and they are supposed to pay for it. If they go bankrupt paying off debts, I'm sorry to say but it has always been a business when they thought of running/organizing the PPSL. Other than exposure, they were trying to make a profit.
I don't think it was a scam to begin with. It was judge poorly managed, poorly prioritized expenses and a lot of promises that he(they) never had the capacity to pay for. Team Cube went on record to say that they checked tickets on the last minute but it would cost them 25k php for them to purchase for their players. If gus paid for it earlier, they could've been booked promo flights.
Also, savings for the hotel bookings could have been made if they bought online (in certain cases) but that would mean "pre-paying" for them which they didn't consider to lower costs because everything seemed to be post paid.
I am from the Philippines and I know you can do these things to save on costs.
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On November 10 2011 15:00 rengarr wrote:
IGN already had their brand tarnished for their association with AZK and PPSL.
As far as responsibility goes, that's what they're accountable for. The reliability that they can make good decisions to which organizations they give their resources to.
Pantagruel, you seem to not realize what sponsorship entails a sponsor if you think IGN is walking away from this scratch free. Ever heard of the saying a "person is as good as the company he keeps"? The same applies to businesses, if a company ran around sponsoring events that turn into gigantic clusterfucks, that a huge black mark on them, that means the manage is unable to properly utilize their resources and have a poor sense of judgement.
Of course the smudge on IGN's name is nowhere near as bad as that, still the damage to their name has already been done. I mean do you think that in the relatively blooming industry that is eSports, having something like that mess the PPSL shat out associated with your company's name isn't damaging at all?
IGN is responsible for making good decisions, they messed up and fessed up. The guy in charge admitted that he went against better judgement and advice from his own team. He could have been a douche and said "Hey don't blame me for pouring $14k into a mismanaged event, how could I know that this Gus guy was a moron?" Instead he took responsibility for the poor decision and the effect it had on IGN's brand.
If IGN goes beyond the terms of their contract and provides extra help, that's cool. That'd be down right awesome. But they are in no way supposed to do that. That'll be charity and good will on their part. Not something they need to do because they're responsible for the crap that went on.
I agree with you completely. IGN does have a smudge on their name as a consequence of this event, and that clearly shows that they bear some responsibility for this event. I also agree that they have taken responsibility for that, as has been shown in this statement, as well as the previous one. What I am arguing against is simply the fact that the only one who is being blamed is Gus Ledesma, and unfortunately it goes beyond him. I don't think IGN should receive praise from the community for this event, which they are by many members on this forum. I just hope people realize the poor judgement of IGN helped create this situation and that something like this won't happen again.
IGN, of course, is not required to clean up the mess that has been created, but who else will do it? If no one does it and a number of people lose their jobs or are never paid for their services it will look even worse for IGN who made such an event possible. Therefore I imagine it will be IGN who ends up cleaning up.
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Thank you so much for not giving up on us. And thank you to the foreigners for most likely relaying the info to you that our scene and community here is awesome! Thank you Justin for coming home and doing so much for the motherland!
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I think perhaps I need to clarify what i'm thinking a little bit more.
I look at IGN more then just a sponsor in this situation. They paid for this event. This event was a direct consequence of IGN funding. Because of that I feel they bear some responsibility of everything that happened because I feel none of it was possible without IGN.
When Nike sponsors Tiger Woods or Kobe Bryant or whoever, they give them money for personal use in exchange for exposure of their brand name to the public. IGN did more then that. They gave money to AZK to host an event for them, namely the "IGN Pro League Season 4 Pacific Qualifiers". Their money was directly used to create this event. IGN bears responsibility for how their money is used in this case because they are directly involved in this event and directly benefit or suffer.
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Because the incident people are talking about is Gus's mishandling of the event. They're not talking about IGN not having the better judgement in putting their trust in scumbags like Gus. IGN already addressed that by admitting that they did.
And I think IGN, and Alex in particular is worthy of praise. I've had the displeasure of working under a manager before who was responsible for a huge delay in a project we were working on, his first reaction when the higher ups asked for an explanation was to start pointing fingers at everyone except himself
Alex and IGN did the right thing, and that's what they are being praised for. If Gus, instead of going into hiding or whatever shit he's pulling out of that ass that serves as his mouth lately, were to step up and really talk about what happened instead of some flimsy worded apology where he's clearly avoiding most of the blame and spends half the post patting himself on the back, then maybe he'd be viewed with a less harsher light.
Or in short, Alex has the balls to man up to what he did wrong. Gus on the other hand seems to have misplaced his along with his mic.
Edit: From what I see, IGN, in exchange for them giving the PPSL $14K as part of a sponsorship deal, was allowed to have the IP4 qualifiers held at the PPSL's event. The PPSL just took advantage of the whole thing and decided to have their entire revolve around it.
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On November 10 2011 15:40 Pantagruel wrote:
I think perhaps I need to clarify what i'm thinking a little bit more.
I look at IGN more then just a sponsor in this situation. They paid for this event. This event was a direct consequence of IGN funding. Because of that I feel they bear some responsibility of everything that happened because I feel none of it was possible without IGN.
When Nike sponsors Tiger Woods or Kobe Bryant or whoever, they give them money for personal use in exchange for exposure of their brand name to the public. IGN did more then that. They gave money to AZK to host an event for them, namely the "IGN Pro League Season 4 Pacific Qualifiers". Their money was directly used to create this event. IGN bears responsibility for how their money is used in this case because they are directly involved in this event and directly benefit or suffer.
So what do you determine is "some responsibility"? So far, they have taken steps to look at how to redistribute the remaining $7,000 so that it would help the situation. That, as far as I'm concerned, is taking responsibility. If you think they should just throw additional money into the situation, that is not their responsibility.
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On November 10 2011 15:40 Pantagruel wrote:
I think perhaps I need to clarify what i'm thinking a little bit more.
I look at IGN more then just a sponsor in this situation. They paid for this event. This event was a direct consequence of IGN funding. Because of that I feel they bear some responsibility of everything that happened because I feel none of it was possible without IGN.
When Nike sponsors Tiger Woods or Kobe Bryant or whoever, they give them money for personal use in exchange for exposure of their brand name to the public. IGN did more then that. They gave money to AZK to host an event for them, namely the "IGN Pro League Season 4 Pacific Qualifiers". Their money was directly used to create this event. IGN bears responsibility for how their money is used in this case because they are directly involved in this event and directly benefit or suffer.
This tournament was going to happen with or without IGN, IGN just offered to sponsor it in exchange for making it also considered an IPL qualifier. IGN probably should have looked a bit more into AZN's shady background, but unless they were contractually obligated to do so, specific decisions Gus made with the money he accepted are not IGN's fault. Its a hard lesson learned for IGN, but if anyone is going to pay up it ought to be AZN more so then IGN.
Its like one guys offers another guy $1000 to make a party better, but then that guy goes and signs a popular band for $200,000 assuming hes going to make a boat load of cash anyway, then proceeds to not make the money or provide much of a party. The first guy can't be blamed for second dudes on the spot call to spend spend spend.
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Dear IPL.
Your organisation is full of scholars and gentlemen,
Much more then i could say about Gus.
Thank you.
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On November 10 2011 15:49 rengarr wrote:
Because the incident people are talking about is Gus's mishandling of the event. They're not talking about IGN not having the better judgement in putting their trust in scumbags like Gus. IGN already addressed that by admitting that they did.
And I think IGN, and Alex in particular is worthy of praise. I've had the displeasure of working under a manager before who was responsible for a huge delay in a project we were working on, his first reaction when the higher ups asked for an explanation was to start pointing fingers at everyone except himself
Alex and IGN did the right thing, and that's what they are being praised for. If Gus, instead of going into hiding or whatever shit he's pulling out of that ass that serves as his mouth lately, were to step up and really talk about what happened instead of some flimsy worded apology where he's clearly avoiding most of the blame and spends half the post patting himself on the back, then maybe he'd be viewed with a less harsher light.
Or in short, Alex has the balls to man up to what he did wrong. Gus on the other hand seems to have misplaced his along with his mic.
Edit: From what I see, IGN, in exchange for them giving the PPSL $14K as part of a sponsorship deal, was allowed to have the IP4 qualifiers held at the PPSL's event. The PPSL just took advantage of the whole thing and decided to have their entire revolve around it.
Fair enough. I definitely agree that Gus took advantage of everything and tried to push his team into the spotlight as well as himself, which can be seen by his dishonest actions in regards to YoonYJ, team Cube, the moonglade incident and the constant obnoxious name dropping seen in testimonials from various member of the community.
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thanks IGN/IPL for organising/sponsoring public events and clearing out to the community publicly
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On November 10 2011 15:53 Torpedo.Vegas wrote:Show nested quote +On November 10 2011 15:40 Pantagruel wrote:
I think perhaps I need to clarify what i'm thinking a little bit more.
I look at IGN more then just a sponsor in this situation. They paid for this event. This event was a direct consequence of IGN funding. Because of that I feel they bear some responsibility of everything that happened because I feel none of it was possible without IGN.
When Nike sponsors Tiger Woods or Kobe Bryant or whoever, they give them money for personal use in exchange for exposure of their brand name to the public. IGN did more then that. They gave money to AZK to host an event for them, namely the "IGN Pro League Season 4 Pacific Qualifiers". Their money was directly used to create this event. IGN bears responsibility for how their money is used in this case because they are directly involved in this event and directly benefit or suffer.
This tournament was going to happen with or without IGN, IGN just offered to sponsor it in exchange for making it also considered an IPL qualifier. IGN probably should have looked a bit more into AZN's shady background, but unless they were contractually obligated to do so, specific decisions Gus made with the money he accepted are not IGN's fault. Its a hard lesson learned for IGN, but if anyone is going to pay up it ought to be AZN more so then IGN. Its like one guys offers another guy $1000 to make a party better, but then that guy goes and signs a popular band for $200,000 assuming hes going to make a boat load of cash anyway, then proceeds to not make the money or provide much of a party. The first guy can't be blamed for second dudes on the spot call to spend spend spend.
I disagree. Without IGN a tournament of this size would never have happened. No one would trust Gus without IGN backing. Having an idea to organize a big tournament does not equate to actually making it happen. It only happened after IGN gave their support. Both are partly responsible. Obviously Gus and AZK ought to pay up but I can pretty much guarantee you they don't have the money to do so, as it was poorly spent to organize the event.
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sry wrong thread  pls delete
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only thing I do wanna say is if IGN doesnt find a way to help amanda not go to jail and she goes to jail for this I no longer support them. They have 7k of the money that didnt go to gus that better go directly towards saving her.
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Well done IPL again. Transparency is a good way to earn respect from the community.
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On November 10 2011 16:13 Modeath wrote:
only thing I do wanna say is if IGN doesnt find a way to help amanda not go to jail and she goes to jail for this I no longer support them. They have 7k of the money that didnt go to gus that better go directly towards saving her.
She owes 12k to her agency I believe. I have no expertise in travel agencies so I cannot say if her interactions with Gus were standard or not but it seems very naive to front someone 12,000 USD. I too however hope that this issue is resolved as quickly as possible and that no lasting damage is done to people because of an e-sports event.
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On November 10 2011 16:02 Pantagruel wrote:Show nested quote +On November 10 2011 15:53 Torpedo.Vegas wrote:On November 10 2011 15:40 Pantagruel wrote:
I think perhaps I need to clarify what i'm thinking a little bit more.
I look at IGN more then just a sponsor in this situation. They paid for this event. This event was a direct consequence of IGN funding. Because of that I feel they bear some responsibility of everything that happened because I feel none of it was possible without IGN.
When Nike sponsors Tiger Woods or Kobe Bryant or whoever, they give them money for personal use in exchange for exposure of their brand name to the public. IGN did more then that. They gave money to AZK to host an event for them, namely the "IGN Pro League Season 4 Pacific Qualifiers". Their money was directly used to create this event. IGN bears responsibility for how their money is used in this case because they are directly involved in this event and directly benefit or suffer.
This tournament was going to happen with or without IGN, IGN just offered to sponsor it in exchange for making it also considered an IPL qualifier. IGN probably should have looked a bit more into AZN's shady background, but unless they were contractually obligated to do so, specific decisions Gus made with the money he accepted are not IGN's fault. Its a hard lesson learned for IGN, but if anyone is going to pay up it ought to be AZN more so then IGN. Its like one guys offers another guy $1000 to make a party better, but then that guy goes and signs a popular band for $200,000 assuming hes going to make a boat load of cash anyway, then proceeds to not make the money or provide much of a party. The first guy can't be blamed for second dudes on the spot call to spend spend spend. I disagree. Without IGN a tournament of this size would never have happened. No one would trust Gus without IGN backing. Having an idea to organize a big tournament does not equate to actually making it happen. It only happened after IGN gave their support. Both are partly responsible. Obviously Gus and AZK ought to pay up but I can pretty much guarantee you they don't have the money to do so, as it was poorly spent to organize the event.
Ultimate responsibility for anything lies with the last person who could have made a choice and made the wrong one. IPL choose to sponsor PPSL and Gus, but Gus "choose" to screw it up. Therefore, Gus has the ultimate responsibility. If Gus weren't a screwup, none of this would have happened, and we wouldn't be having this talk.
Could IGN have ultimately done more to ensure that they were dealing with someone reasonable? Yes, and in the future, they probably will. But saying that they're the most responsible party in this or somehow bear any significant culpability is coming dangerously close to "blaming the victim" territory.
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EPT
