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On November 10 2011 13:11 _Depression wrote:Show nested quote +On November 10 2011 13:05 turdburgler wrote:
what really makes me sad is that these guys came up to ipl and for whatever reason ipl decided to give them a shot. they saw a bunch of guys who wanted to make something happen in a developing scene and ipl ran with it. those guys let ipl down big time, and now i dont see ipl doing that again. it was probably naive to think some people who approach you with no previous experience could pull off anything decent (ignoring the downright illegality of some of the things gus has done) but it makes me kinda feel good about ipl and our community to know that they were willing to give it a try.
if it had been a success maybe ipl would be looking to run more events and cups where they could take a hands off approach. offering a spot at a major ipl event along with the prize would draw attention to less hyped events and who knows how things could of gone from there. a real community project to bring content out with minimal backing from ipl to keep it exciting.
but now i dont see that happening. i dont see ipl taking that risk again and that makes me sad. so if alex is reading this thread id love to hear that they havent given up on backing smaller producers. grass roots stuff is always the secret to success and growth but not many people have the capital to sit back while the grass grows. ign has that capital, right now they are the only ones who could fund anything like that in a meaningful way. If you read IPL's Follow-Up message at all, IPL actually went to PPSL. When they found out PPSL had hired Tastosis and were planning to bring in some big-name players, they made a deal with PPSL to change the date of their event, in exchange for IPL's sponsorship of the event.
alex said somewhere that they were approached at either ipl3 or blizzcon (i forget which exactly) by team azk about the event
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On November 10 2011 13:11 17Sphynx17 wrote:
Going by the logic of RISK, you can always cut your losses which IGN is not doing but they are already putting themselves out there.
I actually don't agree with the donation because it is again another bad precedent. If you continue with that direction of the community helping wronged e-sport individuals in events, what's to stop the next one?
What I mean is like the case of Amanda. We are still unsure of how the situation came about but it may very well that she was the SOLE guarantor for the payment of tickets and she may/could have issued dated checks to the agency expecting them to clear (it was the only reason I could think of where she would be jailed through the case of ESTAFA). So she put too much trust in Gus and now has no resort but to ask help from the community. Say she is bailed out by the community. What happens to the next victim who also didn't think everything through and put all the risk on themselves?
I agree that IGN could have been huge dicks, and just not committed to the qualifier, or the remaining 7k, but people would have criticized them heavily for that. They know it. The IPL as a whole is an investment into esports. Any investment involves some risk. I just feel that even though this investment turned somewhat poor, they could stand to improve on the overall investment by putting more than what they had anticipated needing to.
I find it hard to blame amanda or anyone else for putting themselves out there a little because they believed that growing esports was worthwhile, and granted, we don't understand 100% of the situation, but I think its been established that this Gus guy swindled a lot of people by dropping a lot of reputable names. I'm pretty sympathetic to ALL those harmed by his actions, including IGN and the other sponsors, but we're talking about a person possibly losing not just a substantial amount of money, but probably her job, if not also jail time, as opposed to a company getting a loss on an investment. (Again, maybe I'm looking at IGN/IPL as something bigger than they are, but I dunnno).
But who knows. Maybe this Gus guy is freaking Kaiser Soze, and this whole thing is a huge scheme and by reimburing people, we're just doubling what he's going to steal.
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I very much agree with SarsFlu here.
I feel that IGN is very much responsible for this event. The PPSL would never have been able to host an event of this size without the backing and the funds of IGN and would never have been able to attract the players, casters and other participants of this event. As someone else in another thread mentioned, if you give a kid the keys to your car and he runs over 5 people, you too will be responsible for the outcome. If this event had been successful you can bet that IGN would have garnered all the praise, and thusly they must also bear the criticisms now that it has failed.
I absolutely appreciate the communication IGN has with the community, I will certainly support them in their future endeavors and I absolutely think they are one of the most professional organizations in e-sports, but they made a mistake in allowing AZK and Gus Ledesma to bear the responsibility of this event and the IGN brand name, and for that they ought to be held accountable.
I hope IGN is able to take care of the financial problems that numerous people are now saddled with as a result of this event as I feel they are the most involved and most capable organization to do so here. Furthermore, I hope this is a lesson to IGN to be far more careful with whom they trust and to take a greater interest and activity for any event which they are sponsoring. By the sounds of it (for the upcoming i44 event) they are doing just that and I look forward to it.
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Should we expect stricter/more defined contracts in the future for e-sports events so that those in-charge are more accountable for these sort of things?
Its so painful to hear that the crew is taking all the flak and fire >.<
Im sure as a last resort there could be a "save Amanda" event to be run by a reputable streamer to raise money for this, totally sc2 community hwaiting should it ever get to that point...
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On November 10 2011 13:41 Pantagruel wrote:
I very much agree with SarsFlu here.
I feel that IGN is very much responsible for this event. The PPSL would never have been able to host an event of this size without the backing and the funds of IGN and would never have been able to attract the players, casters and other participants of this event. As someone else in another thread mentioned, if you give a kid the keys to your car and he runs over 5 people, you too will be responsible for the outcome. If this event had been successful you can bet that IGN would have garnered all the praise, and thusly they must also bear the criticisms now that it has failed.
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I laughed at that comment. Really? Do you even have a slight clue about the legal system here in the U.S?
How about this scenario: your 50 year old neighbor borrows your hammer because he told you he needed to fix the roof. You let him. He then uses the hammer to kill his wife. Should you be held accountable for his action?
Can you see the difference between the two scenarios? One is a minor, the other is a fully grown adult? Now, is Gus a minor or an adult?
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On November 10 2011 13:47 atakawow wrote:Show nested quote +On November 10 2011 13:41 Pantagruel wrote:
I very much agree with SarsFlu here.
I feel that IGN is very much responsible for this event. The PPSL would never have been able to host an event of this size without the backing and the funds of IGN and would never have been able to attract the players, casters and other participants of this event. As someone else in another thread mentioned, if you give a kid the keys to your car and he runs over 5 people, you too will be responsible for the outcome. If this event had been successful you can bet that IGN would have garnered all the praise, and thusly they must also bear the criticisms now that it has failed.
. I laughed at that comment. Really? Do you even have a slight clue about the legal system here in the U.S? How about this scenario: you let your 50 year old neighbor borrow a hammer. He then uses the hammer to kill his wife. Should you be held accountable for his action? Can you see the difference between the two scenarios? One is a minor, the other is a fully grown adult? Now, is Gus a minor or an adult?
No, since your neighbor is not a minor. Gus is essentially a minor here. He has no experience in live events and thus is unable to properly organize it. Who are you going to blame, the man who was given the responsibility to organize the event or the ones who gave him the means to do so?
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Thank you for cooperating, IGN, and Gus is still an asshole.
*sigh* I usually do a blog on posts that multiply by 50. Quick everyone pretend that this post is my 401st post!
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IGN has been my favorite league for some time. Its the only one that's still free. Glad you guys exist!
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+ Show Spoiler +On November 10 2011 13:41 Pantagruel wrote:
I very much agree with SarsFlu here.
I feel that IGN is very much responsible for this event. The PPSL would never have been able to host an event of this size without the backing and the funds of IGN and would never have been able to attract the players, casters and other participants of this event. As someone else in another thread mentioned, if you give a kid the keys to your car and he runs over 5 people, you too will be responsible for the outcome. If this event had been successful you can bet that IGN would have garnered all the praise, and thusly they must also bear the criticisms now that it has failed.
I absolutely appreciate the communication IGN has with the community, I will certainly support them in their future endeavors and I absolutely think they are one of the most professional organizations in e-sports, but they made a mistake in allowing AZK and Gus Ledesma to bear the responsibility of this event and the IGN brand name, and for that they ought to be held accountable.
I hope IGN is able to take care of the financial problems that numerous people are now saddled with as a result of this event as I feel they are the most involved and most capable organization to do so here. Furthermore, I hope this is a lesson to IGN to be far more careful with whom they trust and to take a greater interest and activity for any event which they are sponsoring. By the sounds of it (for the upcoming i44 event) they are doing just that and I look forward to it.
From what I understand from all of this everything was already planned/slated to go even before IPL came in because IPL found out that Korean Programers were coming and that Tastosis was going to cast the event.
In this case though for IPL they came in to support/sponsor, never to lead/take charge. That is why they could pull the plug of the support line when they saw the fiasco that was day 1. I wouldn't liken it to car keys being given to a kid but rather like a sponsor in past for Tiger Woods. He f-cked up, they pulled out.
If we as individuals then expect from all sponsors to come forward in cases like these, it would actually place more responsibility on the sponsors. Why? If the events organizer fails to deliver and bails, then the sponsor is then immediately expected to shoulder the responsibility? Who would then sponsor any event if that were the case? Sponsors are their to help and contribute, but never to take full responsibility in the event of failure on the part of the person/event/organization sponsored.
CSN came in and continued the event to help, are we then expecting CSN to pony up some ad revenue they gained with the 10k viewers they had on Day 2 of PPSL? These guys are trying to help but we shouldn't be expecting these guys to take responsibility when someone else doesn't.
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+ Show Spoiler +On November 10 2011 13:50 Pantagruel wrote:Show nested quote +On November 10 2011 13:47 atakawow wrote:On November 10 2011 13:41 Pantagruel wrote:
I very much agree with SarsFlu here.
I feel that IGN is very much responsible for this event. The PPSL would never have been able to host an event of this size without the backing and the funds of IGN and would never have been able to attract the players, casters and other participants of this event. As someone else in another thread mentioned, if you give a kid the keys to your car and he runs over 5 people, you too will be responsible for the outcome. If this event had been successful you can bet that IGN would have garnered all the praise, and thusly they must also bear the criticisms now that it has failed.
. I laughed at that comment. Really? Do you even have a slight clue about the legal system here in the U.S? How about this scenario: you let your 50 year old neighbor borrow a hammer. He then uses the hammer to kill his wife. Should you be held accountable for his action? Can you see the difference between the two scenarios? One is a minor, the other is a fully grown adult? Now, is Gus a minor or an adult? No, since your neighbor is not a minor. Gus is essentially a minor here. He has no experience in live events and thus is unable to properly organize it. Who are you going to blame, the man who was given the responsibility to organize the event or the ones who gave him the means to do so?
Um, Gus is not a minor that is why you expect him to act like an adult and be responsible.
Second, he was never given responsibility to organize the event. He had already supposedly planned for and was working on the event even before IPL came in. Have you watched "The Greatest Movie Ever Sold"? Gus is essentially the guy that sold himself and the PPSL event to prospective sponsors and the sponsors saw potential in the planned event so they helped him get it further off the ground. He basically pitched them the PPSL, it's that, simply that.
PPSL had potential to be a really good event like PGF and adding IPL to the mix made it even a bigger thing but let's not point the responsibility towards IPL, they are just a sponsor. Emphasis on sponsor. Would you be mad at twitchtv for showing a travesty of a stream because they let such crap quality vids get through their servers? NO I say. It doesn't and has never worked like that.
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17Sphynx17
I agree with your basic point. However, I feel that the PPSL, namely the big names, tastosis, MKP, the rest, were all ideas by Gus, not something that was already arranged. I believe IGN's sponsorship of the PPSL is what attracted these big names to agree to coming (because they trust the IGN/IPL brand name). Without the IGN backing I don't believe that this event would have been remotely this size. Therefore I believe IGN should bear some blame of what has happened.
Obviously this does not remove any blame from Gus for his complete mismanagement of the event.
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On November 10 2011 13:50 Pantagruel wrote:No, since your neighbor is not a minor. Gus is essentially a minor here. He has no experience in live events and thus is unable to properly organize it. Who are you going to blame, the man who was given the responsibility to organize the event or the ones who gave him the means to do so?
On November 10 2011 08:51 Alex.IGN wrote:1) Why did we pick PPSL to run our SEA Qualifier for IPL 4?
When we were planning IPL 3, we heard that the PPSL was going to be doing an event that same weekend, with Tastosis and Korean players coming in. In order to allow players to play in both events, as well as making sure the community could watch both events, we entered in negotiations with the PPSL to shift their date for their event, even though their broadcast times would only slightly conflict with ours. We agreed to pay them to move their event and also we wanted to support the local Filipino eSports scene and thus went further and became a sponsor of their event. This was not a case of us picking them over anyone else.
IGN did not enable this event. It was already planned to have Tastosis and Korean players. IGN became a sponsor. People in other threads have said that there are other sponsors as well (I haven't checked, so I don't know who / how much they gave, although S2 gave $2k for the HoN tourny apparently). The fact that you're trying to blame IGN for any of this is pretty ridiculous imo.
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Gus is 30-40 years old. That's why we all find it flabbergasting that he could cause such a ruckus.
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Awesome response by IPL on the issue. Hope that the UK event not only goes well but blows all expectations out of the water.
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On November 10 2011 13:58 17Sphynx17 wrote:+ Show Spoiler +On November 10 2011 13:50 Pantagruel wrote:Show nested quote +On November 10 2011 13:47 atakawow wrote:On November 10 2011 13:41 Pantagruel wrote:
I very much agree with SarsFlu here.
I feel that IGN is very much responsible for this event. The PPSL would never have been able to host an event of this size without the backing and the funds of IGN and would never have been able to attract the players, casters and other participants of this event. As someone else in another thread mentioned, if you give a kid the keys to your car and he runs over 5 people, you too will be responsible for the outcome. If this event had been successful you can bet that IGN would have garnered all the praise, and thusly they must also bear the criticisms now that it has failed.
. I laughed at that comment. Really? Do you even have a slight clue about the legal system here in the U.S? How about this scenario: you let your 50 year old neighbor borrow a hammer. He then uses the hammer to kill his wife. Should you be held accountable for his action? Can you see the difference between the two scenarios? One is a minor, the other is a fully grown adult? Now, is Gus a minor or an adult? No, since your neighbor is not a minor. Gus is essentially a minor here. He has no experience in live events and thus is unable to properly organize it. Who are you going to blame, the man who was given the responsibility to organize the event or the ones who gave him the means to do so? Um, Gus is not a minor that is why you expect him to act like an adult and be responsible. Second, he was never given responsibility to organize the event. He had already supposedly planned for and was working on the event even before IPL came in. Have you watched "The Greatest Movie Ever Sold"? Gus is essentially the guy that sold himself and the PPSL event to prospective sponsors and the sponsors saw potential in the planned event so they helped him get it further off the ground. He basically pitched them the PPSL, it's that, simply that. PPSL had potential to be a really good event like PGF and adding IPL to the mix made it even a bigger thing but let's not point the responsibility towards IPL, they are just a sponsor. Emphasis on sponsor. Would you be mad at twitchtv for showing a travesty of a stream because they let such crap quality vids get through their servers? NO I say. It doesn't and has never worked like that.
Perhaps the analogy doesn't entirely work but I think people can understand the meaning. If you give someone a lot of responsibility and they clearly have no means to bear it then I do believe you ought to be held accountable. I believe that this event only got off the ground because IGN sponsored it. IGN should have kept an eye on their investment and the people responsible for it; clearly they didnt. Now a lot of people have been harmed and IGN can't just wipe their hands of it. They were integral in making this event a possibility, thats why they are now working hard to try and fix many of the problems that have arisen.
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IGN and Twitchtv sent guys to help.
If you look at it from a big picture scenario, there was no one really who has done such an event, other than Mineski for PGF of this scale for SC2. As such you could say majority are minors. IGN and Twitchtv gave training wheels to these "minors" to help them get this event running properly but what happened was they had to actually RUN the event and not just help.
So again, we should not expect Sponsors to take responsibility every time an event fails miserably. They sponsored the event to help the "vision" come true and help it. HELP and NOT SHOULDER RESPONSIBILITY.
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On November 10 2011 14:02 dormer wrote:Show nested quote +On November 10 2011 13:50 Pantagruel wrote:No, since your neighbor is not a minor. Gus is essentially a minor here. He has no experience in live events and thus is unable to properly organize it. Who are you going to blame, the man who was given the responsibility to organize the event or the ones who gave him the means to do so? Show nested quote +On November 10 2011 08:51 Alex.IGN wrote:1) Why did we pick PPSL to run our SEA Qualifier for IPL 4?
When we were planning IPL 3, we heard that the PPSL was going to be doing an event that same weekend, with Tastosis and Korean players coming in. In order to allow players to play in both events, as well as making sure the community could watch both events, we entered in negotiations with the PPSL to shift their date for their event, even though their broadcast times would only slightly conflict with ours. We agreed to pay them to move their event and also we wanted to support the local Filipino eSports scene and thus went further and became a sponsor of their event. This was not a case of us picking them over anyone else. IGN did not enable this event. It was already planned to have Tastosis and Korean players. IGN became a sponsor. People in other threads have said that there are other sponsors as well (I haven't checked, so I don't know who / how much they gave, although S2 gave $2k for the HoN tourny apparently). The fact that you're trying to blame IGN for any of this is pretty ridiculous imo.
I certainly don't mean to blame IGN for this event, they didnt organize it. That doesnt mean they shouldn't bear some responsibility for it as a major sponsor for it (which more then likely enabled this event to commence). I guess the difference in opinion here is that you believe that Gus and AZK would have actually been able to organize this tournament without the brand name and funds from IGN, and I don't. Gus can talk all he wants about tastosis and any number of high profile players but would you think any of them would have come without IGN backing Gus?
As far as we know he presented his plan to David Ting at IPL3, and that tastosis was coming and so and so was coming, but I'd eat my hat before I believe that all those people were already lined up to come before IGN backed em.
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Thank you for this it give a lot of vision and understanding!
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On November 10 2011 14:10 17Sphynx17 wrote:
IGN and Twitchtv sent guys to help.
If you look at it from a big picture scenario, there was no one really who has done such an event, other than Mineski for PGF of this scale for SC2. As such you could say majority are minors. IGN and Twitchtv gave training wheels to these "minors" to help them get this event running properly but what happened was they had to actually RUN the event and not just help.
So again, we should not expect Sponsors to take responsibility every time an event fails miserably. They sponsored the event to help the "vision" come true and help it. HELP and NOT SHOULDER RESPONSIBILITY.
I guess that's where we differ in opinion then. I feel companies who sponsor an event with their brand name and money are partly responsible for the outcome of the event. Basically you are giving your money to an untrustworthy individual who with it, did a lot of harm to a number of people. Your failure in judgement helped allow this to happen. I don't place all blame on IGN, I just feel like they can't walk away from this scott free either, and they aren't. I just don't feel its right that all the vitriol and blame is directed at one individual and that IGN is being praised for this event. IGN's poor judgement has contributed to this situation as well and that should be recognized.
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On November 10 2011 14:24 Pantagruel wrote:Show nested quote +On November 10 2011 14:10 17Sphynx17 wrote:
IGN and Twitchtv sent guys to help.
If you look at it from a big picture scenario, there was no one really who has done such an event, other than Mineski for PGF of this scale for SC2. As such you could say majority are minors. IGN and Twitchtv gave training wheels to these "minors" to help them get this event running properly but what happened was they had to actually RUN the event and not just help.
So again, we should not expect Sponsors to take responsibility every time an event fails miserably. They sponsored the event to help the "vision" come true and help it. HELP and NOT SHOULDER RESPONSIBILITY.
IGN's poor judgement has contributed to this situation as well and that should be recognized.
I think they recognized it themselves already, since they already threw out statements starting day2.
The major concern now is that a majority of the money is missing, people are borderline being screwed to shit, and does ign throw out the money immediately (saving people) or holding firm (for the responsible party aka gus) to at least comment on ANYTHING at the moment.
Should ign throw a statement right after the event, sorry it was bad, we will take care of all effected parties involved, you just let gus run away with all the money scott free..
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EPT
