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On November 11 2011 05:30 Fyrewolf wrote:
So then when MLG winners get seeded into the GSL, that makes MLG actually a GSL(sanctioned) event by your logic? So GSL actually took over MLG, there is no real MLG because they are actually just GSL events. That's not how it works though. Just because the winner gets seeded does not automatically equate the two groups into one. The PPSL is still the PPSL, and the IPL is the IPL, just the winner of the PPSL gets qualified for IPL. That does NOT mean that the PPSL is an IPL event, they are two separate groups. The i44Multiplay is the next regional organizer, but that doesn't mean that IGN now owns the Multiplay name or brand or anything, they are still separate groups.
The relationship is sponsors give money/equipment to the event, the organizer makes the event happen. If the event doesn't happen right, it's not the sponsor's fault for giving money. It's the organizer's fault for not organizing the tournament right. The responsibility of the sponsor is to make sure that their support is done properly and (for their own sake) well spent, NOT to be responsible for actually organizing the tournament.
IGN has already admitted their mistake in trusting Gus and learned their lesson from it. But their mistake was not the mismanaging of the tournament, their mistake was the misplacement of trust and support into Gus. The responsibility lies with the ORGANIZERS, not the SPONSOR. IGN (or any other organization sponsoring, Nvida, Razer, etc.) can never responsible for someone else's mistakes of mismanagement, but ONLY their own mistake of misplaced support and trust.
And that screencap means absolutely nothing. When you sponsor an event, your name gets plastered on everything. I don't believe that Coca Cola built the stadium, hired a team, and organized the football game when I see their logo on the sideline posters. That's just silly.
Admittedly IGN did make a mistake in their judgement, which they learned from and will be better for it in the future. But they were not the one's who did the mismanaging. To say they are responsible for the outcomes of someone else's mistake shifts the responsibility away from where it belongs, away from the guy that FAILED in his responsibility to organize the tournament right. You can't hold a higher up accountable for the failure of the lower down, but only hold them accountable for choosing the guy who failed.
Ok, I just had to reply to a few parts of this. Equating the exchange program between MLG and GSL to this is just silly. Those two leagues set up the agreement to cross promote their two leagues and to help grow SC2 esports. GSL sends players to MLG, MLG gets to send some players to GSL. The MLG NEVER lists their tournaments as a qualifier for the GSL, only that succeeding in their events qualifies certain players for the GSL. The PPSL, as far as I can tell, did not exist until this event. The IPL has been in existence since basically the beginning of SC2? And they announced the event as an IGN ProLeague SEA Qualifier. See the difference?
Your points in the middle I addressed in my last post so I'll skip it.
Your last paragraph misses my point. Obviously Gus is primarily responsible. But WHAT IF he runs away, and cannot be found? Then who is the next in line for accountability? thegunrun, amanda, and the other people footing the bill right now? They're stuck with it now, and legally, maybe they should be. But the company running the IPL, who put their name on it, should show more compassion and concern for an event bearing their name.
And your last sentence troubles me quite a bit. So you're saying that people higher up should NOT be held accountable for the people under them? How does that work? If someone under you fails and cannot correct something, the responsibility should move either UP the chain, or from the top of the chain, NOT down the chain or from the bottom.
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On November 11 2011 06:11 SarsFlu wrote:Show nested quote +On November 11 2011 05:30 Fyrewolf wrote:
So then when MLG winners get seeded into the GSL, that makes MLG actually a GSL(sanctioned) event by your logic? So GSL actually took over MLG, there is no real MLG because they are actually just GSL events. That's not how it works though. Just because the winner gets seeded does not automatically equate the two groups into one. The PPSL is still the PPSL, and the IPL is the IPL, just the winner of the PPSL gets qualified for IPL. That does NOT mean that the PPSL is an IPL event, they are two separate groups. The i44Multiplay is the next regional organizer, but that doesn't mean that IGN now owns the Multiplay name or brand or anything, they are still separate groups.
The relationship is sponsors give money/equipment to the event, the organizer makes the event happen. If the event doesn't happen right, it's not the sponsor's fault for giving money. It's the organizer's fault for not organizing the tournament right. The responsibility of the sponsor is to make sure that their support is done properly and (for their own sake) well spent, NOT to be responsible for actually organizing the tournament.
IGN has already admitted their mistake in trusting Gus and learned their lesson from it. But their mistake was not the mismanaging of the tournament, their mistake was the misplacement of trust and support into Gus. The responsibility lies with the ORGANIZERS, not the SPONSOR. IGN (or any other organization sponsoring, Nvida, Razer, etc.) can never responsible for someone else's mistakes of mismanagement, but ONLY their own mistake of misplaced support and trust.
And that screencap means absolutely nothing. When you sponsor an event, your name gets plastered on everything. I don't believe that Coca Cola built the stadium, hired a team, and organized the football game when I see their logo on the sideline posters. That's just silly.
Admittedly IGN did make a mistake in their judgement, which they learned from and will be better for it in the future. But they were not the one's who did the mismanaging. To say they are responsible for the outcomes of someone else's mistake shifts the responsibility away from where it belongs, away from the guy that FAILED in his responsibility to organize the tournament right. You can't hold a higher up accountable for the failure of the lower down, but only hold them accountable for choosing the guy who failed. Ok, I just had to reply to a few parts of this. Equating the exchange program between MLG and GSL to this is just silly. Those two leagues set up the agreement to cross promote their two leagues and to help grow SC2 esports. GSL sends players to MLG, MLG gets to send some players to GSL. The MLG NEVER lists their tournaments as a qualifier for the GSL, only that succeeding in their events qualifies certain players for the GSL. The PPSL, as far as I can tell, did not exist until this event. The IPL has been in existence since basically the beginning of SC2? And they announced the event as an IGN ProLeague SEA Qualifier. See the difference? Your points in the middle I addressed in my last post so I'll skip it. Your last paragraph misses my point. Obviously Gus is primarily responsible. But WHAT IF he runs away, and cannot be found? Then who is the next in line for accountability? thegunrun, amanda, and the other people footing the bill right now? They're stuck with it now, and legally, maybe they should be. But the company running the IPL, who put their name on it, should show more compassion and concern for an event bearing their name. And your last sentence troubles me quite a bit. So you're saying that people higher up should NOT be held accountable for the people under them? How does that work? If someone under you fails and cannot correct something, the responsibility should move either UP the chain, or from the top of the chain, NOT down the chain or from the bottom.
Actually, I think his analogy was quite good. In fact, I'd say the GSL and MLG are more connected than the IPL and PPSL. If you followed this situation, you'd know that the IPL essentially sponsored the PPSL as a favor.
Do you know how big IGN is? Do you know how small the PPSL is? The only thing IGN got from the PPSL was community props for not choking out a smaller tournament.
Fact is, if I sponsor your entry into a poker tournament by buying you in, I'm not responsible when you pull out a gun and rob the place.
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IPL is really handeling the issue with great respect and care. Kudos to IPL <3
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On November 11 2011 05:30 Fyrewolf wrote:Show nested quote +On November 10 2011 23:48 SarsFlu wrote:On November 10 2011 22:24 17Sphynx17 wrote:
I really think this is the wrong way when you think about it.
IGN/IPL is a sponsor. And one of the ways they contributed to help the event is add in that its a qualifier. As was mentioned by IGN, they didn't commission Tastosis. It was on Gus'/AZK's end that did this.
If pass on to the sponsors the responsibility of the fiasco that was the event and its consequences (expenses, liability etc) who in their right mind would sponsor then?
Sponsors give aid, be it financial or in kind. But when you are a sponsor, you are never responsibile for the event. If you look at ppsl.tv, the event was organized by Team AZK and PPSL group. It was never a partnership with IGN where IGN had a controlling say on the event. Granted they requested the date to be moved so as not to conflict with another qualifier they had scheduled, but that does not speak of control and immediately mean they are a partner.
Again, if you mention that sponsors should take responsibility, does that mean we blame every single one of the sponsor for also not doing their research into Gus et al? Surely given that these sponsors were tech gear, then that means they are in one way or another present as physical gear in the event.
For those that are not aware Globe is owned by the Ayala Corporation. A sponsor of the event, the supplier of the internet and technically the developer of the mall. So that is actually one of my guesses as to why they chose Glorietta Activity Center as the venue. Let's blame globe then for the shitty connection then? But we didn't even know what bandwidth was committed to the event and what means of connection they were supposed to have.
So other than trying to say IGN is to blame, do we also blame the local sponsors for any event for that matter that botches/fails miserably with the responsibility of cleaning the mess? I mention local because they are the ones closest to the "scene of the events that unfolded".
Unless there are writings to show that IGN is an official partner that should have taken part in the planning and execution of the event that was PPSL, I hardly think they should be made responsible based on the logic that "if IGN didn't sponsor then this mess wouldn't have happened."
Excerpt from IGN's post/message:
1) Why did we pick PPSL to run our SEA Qualifier for IPL 4?
When we were planning IPL 3, we heard that the PPSL was going to be doing an event that same weekend, with Tastosis and Korean players coming in. In order to allow players to play in both events, as well as making sure the community could watch both events, we entered in negotiations with the PPSL to shift their date for their event, even though their broadcast times would only slightly conflict with ours. We agreed to pay them to move their event and also we wanted to support the local Filipino eSports scene and thus went further and became a SPONSOR of their event. This was not a case of us picking them over anyone else. I know by now that we're just going to agree to disagree on this, but I don't see how you can say that IGN/IPL was just a sponsor. Nvidia and Razer were just sponsors. They just donated product/money (maybe not money, we aren't clear on that) to promote their product. This screencap posted by peonsanders on reddit says it to me. This was an IPL SANCTIONED event. Not just sponsored. If you are a legitimate, international esports organization, and you make an event a qualifier for your main tournament, guess what? You have made that event a part of your tournament. It now carries your name. If you had no say in the production or execution of this event, then it is your fault for not demanding and insuring that the standards you expect were not set beforehand. It is very clear that Gus and AZK CAUSED all the problems, one way or another, but a company like IPL should not have agreed to make an event an IPL qualifier solely on vague promises that the event would be taken care of. Still, IPL and all the other sponsors don't 'owe' anything more than they originally agreed to. Its hard to blame them if that is all they do. But they 'could' do more, and I'm just putting it out there that it would be really awesome if they did. So then when MLG winners get seeded into the GSL, that makes MLG actually a GSL(sanctioned) event by your logic? So GSL actually took over MLG, there is no real MLG because they are actually just GSL events. That's not how it works though. Just because the winner gets seeded does not automatically equate the two groups into one. The PPSL is still the PPSL, and the IPL is the IPL, just the winner of the PPSL gets qualified for IPL. That does NOT mean that the PPSL is an IPL event, they are two separate groups. The i44Multiplay is the next regional organizer, but that doesn't mean that IGN now owns the Multiplay name or brand or anything, they are still separate groups. The relationship is sponsors give money/equipment to the event, the organizer makes the event happen. If the event doesn't happen right, it's not the sponsor's fault for giving money. It's the organizer's fault for not organizing the tournament right. The responsibility of the sponsor is to make sure that their support is done properly and (for their own sake) well spent, NOT to be responsible for actually organizing the tournament. IGN has already admitted their mistake in trusting Gus and learned their lesson from it. But their mistake was not the mismanaging of the tournament, their mistake was the misplacement of trust and support into Gus. The responsibility lies with the ORGANIZERS, not the SPONSOR. IGN (or any other organization sponsoring, Nvida, Razer, etc.) can never responsible for someone else's mistakes of mismanagement, but ONLY their own mistake of misplaced support and trust. And that screencap means absolutely nothing. When you sponsor an event, your name gets plastered on everything. I don't believe that Coca Cola built the stadium, hired a team, and organized the football game when I see their logo on the sideline posters. That's just silly. Admittedly IGN did make a mistake in their judgement, which they learned from and will be better for it in the future. But they were not the one's who did the mismanaging. To say they are responsible for the outcomes of someone else's mistake shifts the responsibility away from where it belongs, away from the guy that FAILED in his responsibility to organize the tournament right. You can't hold a higher up accountable for the failure of the lower down, but only hold them accountable for choosing the guy who failed.
There is something you fail to understand.
It was not the PPSL, it was the "IGN ProLeague Season 4 Pacific Qualifiers", an IGN event. This is extremely clear.
They could have sponsored the event and given the qualification spots without making it an IGN event, but that's not what they did.
I can tell you the difference from my point of view as a viewer. If everything went well, I would never have known that it wasn't IGN organizing it. It was on IPL stream, IPL qualifier, there was IPL staff in the avenue.
I decided to watch the event because I saw it on TL event list, after seing it was delayed and that they had some technical difficulty, I decided to wait to see the event. I had no doubt they were going to fix the issues because it was IPL, and in the past they have been very professionnal to deal with this kind of situation. 1 hour later, I gave up, but I would never have waited this long if it wasn't an IPL event.
And I'm sure it's the same with most of the people involved here, the fact that this was an IPL event certainly had an impact on their decision to get involved.
When you sell a product using your brand name, it doesn't matter if you didn't make it yourself, you are responsible.
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On November 11 2011 06:15 -_- wrote:Show nested quote +On November 11 2011 06:11 SarsFlu wrote:On November 11 2011 05:30 Fyrewolf wrote:
So then when MLG winners get seeded into the GSL, that makes MLG actually a GSL(sanctioned) event by your logic? So GSL actually took over MLG, there is no real MLG because they are actually just GSL events. That's not how it works though. Just because the winner gets seeded does not automatically equate the two groups into one. The PPSL is still the PPSL, and the IPL is the IPL, just the winner of the PPSL gets qualified for IPL. That does NOT mean that the PPSL is an IPL event, they are two separate groups. The i44Multiplay is the next regional organizer, but that doesn't mean that IGN now owns the Multiplay name or brand or anything, they are still separate groups.
The relationship is sponsors give money/equipment to the event, the organizer makes the event happen. If the event doesn't happen right, it's not the sponsor's fault for giving money. It's the organizer's fault for not organizing the tournament right. The responsibility of the sponsor is to make sure that their support is done properly and (for their own sake) well spent, NOT to be responsible for actually organizing the tournament.
IGN has already admitted their mistake in trusting Gus and learned their lesson from it. But their mistake was not the mismanaging of the tournament, their mistake was the misplacement of trust and support into Gus. The responsibility lies with the ORGANIZERS, not the SPONSOR. IGN (or any other organization sponsoring, Nvida, Razer, etc.) can never responsible for someone else's mistakes of mismanagement, but ONLY their own mistake of misplaced support and trust.
And that screencap means absolutely nothing. When you sponsor an event, your name gets plastered on everything. I don't believe that Coca Cola built the stadium, hired a team, and organized the football game when I see their logo on the sideline posters. That's just silly.
Admittedly IGN did make a mistake in their judgement, which they learned from and will be better for it in the future. But they were not the one's who did the mismanaging. To say they are responsible for the outcomes of someone else's mistake shifts the responsibility away from where it belongs, away from the guy that FAILED in his responsibility to organize the tournament right. You can't hold a higher up accountable for the failure of the lower down, but only hold them accountable for choosing the guy who failed. Ok, I just had to reply to a few parts of this. Equating the exchange program between MLG and GSL to this is just silly. Those two leagues set up the agreement to cross promote their two leagues and to help grow SC2 esports. GSL sends players to MLG, MLG gets to send some players to GSL. The MLG NEVER lists their tournaments as a qualifier for the GSL, only that succeeding in their events qualifies certain players for the GSL. The PPSL, as far as I can tell, did not exist until this event. The IPL has been in existence since basically the beginning of SC2? And they announced the event as an IGN ProLeague SEA Qualifier. See the difference? Your points in the middle I addressed in my last post so I'll skip it. Your last paragraph misses my point. Obviously Gus is primarily responsible. But WHAT IF he runs away, and cannot be found? Then who is the next in line for accountability? thegunrun, amanda, and the other people footing the bill right now? They're stuck with it now, and legally, maybe they should be. But the company running the IPL, who put their name on it, should show more compassion and concern for an event bearing their name. And your last sentence troubles me quite a bit. So you're saying that people higher up should NOT be held accountable for the people under them? How does that work? If someone under you fails and cannot correct something, the responsibility should move either UP the chain, or from the top of the chain, NOT down the chain or from the bottom. Actually, I think his analogy was quite good. In fact, I'd say the GSL and MLG are more connected than the IPL and PPSL. If you followed this situation, you'd know that the IPL essentially sponsored the PPSL as a favor. Do you know how big IGN is? Do you know how small the PPSL is? The only thing IGN got from the PPSL was community props for not choking out a smaller tournament. Fact is, if I sponsor your entry into a poker tournament by buying you in, I'm not responsible when you pull out a gun and rob the place.
You can't compare this with GSL and MLG, for this simple reason :
MLG and GSL have always made clear what the actual situation was.
IGN only communicated that they weren't organizing the event themselves after it went wrong.
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On November 11 2011 06:11 SarsFlu wrote:
The PPSL, as far as I can tell, did not exist until this event. The IPL has been in existence since basically the beginning of SC2? And they announced the event as an IGN ProLeague SEA Qualifier. See the difference?
PPSL had been running insignificant, unhyped tournaments all summer. They finally talked IGN into sponsoring them and including a seed as a prize. AZK came up with the name-dropping tournament name on their own. Notice that they even swapped the classification as the SEA qualifier for a title more similar to their own tournaments.
On November 11 2011 06:34 Elean wrote:
There is something you fail to understand.
It was not the PPSL, it was the "IGN ProLeague Season 4 Pacific Qualifiers", an IGN event. This is extremely clear.
Read IGN's statement.
http://www.ign.com/ipl/news/2011/08/22/ipl-originals-boasts-new-international-competition
To show our appreciation to Team AZK and the PPSL [wren's note: for promoting IPL, or claiming to], we here at IGN eSports have decided to make the Philippine PRO Starcraft 2 League the official SEA qualifying event for our event after IPL: Origins.
This WAS the PPSL, who IGN gave a seed to their tournament to award to their winner.
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On November 11 2011 06:42 Elean wrote:
IGN only communicated that they weren't organizing the event themselves after it went wrong.
Enough said.
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On November 11 2011 06:53 latan wrote:Show nested quote +On November 11 2011 06:42 Elean wrote:
IGN only communicated that they weren't organizing the event themselves after it went wrong.
Enough said.
Do you really think so? I'm not so sure. After all, while we might not have known that IGN wasn't organizing, everyone involved with putting the qualifier together was. So, while as a member of the public you might wish for more transparency, don't the you think that sole responsibility lies with the organizers?
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On November 11 2011 06:52 Wren wrote:Show nested quote +On November 11 2011 06:11 SarsFlu wrote:
The PPSL, as far as I can tell, did not exist until this event. The IPL has been in existence since basically the beginning of SC2? And they announced the event as an IGN ProLeague SEA Qualifier. See the difference?
PPSL had been running insignificant, unhyped tournaments all summer. They finally talked IGN into sponsoring them and including a seed as a prize. AZK came up with the name-dropping tournament name on their own. Notice that they even swapped the classification as the SEA qualifier for a title more similar to their own tournaments. Show nested quote +On November 11 2011 06:34 Elean wrote:
There is something you fail to understand.
It was not the PPSL, it was the "IGN ProLeague Season 4 Pacific Qualifiers", an IGN event. This is extremely clear. Read IGN's statement. http://www.ign.com/ipl/news/2011/08/22/ipl-originals-boasts-new-international-competitionShow nested quote +To show our appreciation to Team AZK and the PPSL [wren's note: for promoting IPL, or claiming to], we here at IGN eSports have decided to make the Philippine PRO Starcraft 2 League the official SEA qualifying event for our event after IPL: Origins. This WAS the PPSL, who IGN gave a seed to their tournament to award to their winner.
Sorry no, it used to be the PPSL, but this was not the PPSL when the event started. The PPSL became the IGN Prolegue Season 4 Pacific Qualifiers.
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On November 11 2011 07:05 Elean wrote:Show nested quote +On November 11 2011 06:52 Wren wrote:On November 11 2011 06:11 SarsFlu wrote:
The PPSL, as far as I can tell, did not exist until this event. The IPL has been in existence since basically the beginning of SC2? And they announced the event as an IGN ProLeague SEA Qualifier. See the difference?
PPSL had been running insignificant, unhyped tournaments all summer. They finally talked IGN into sponsoring them and including a seed as a prize. AZK came up with the name-dropping tournament name on their own. Notice that they even swapped the classification as the SEA qualifier for a title more similar to their own tournaments. On November 11 2011 06:34 Elean wrote:
There is something you fail to understand.
It was not the PPSL, it was the "IGN ProLeague Season 4 Pacific Qualifiers", an IGN event. This is extremely clear. Read IGN's statement. http://www.ign.com/ipl/news/2011/08/22/ipl-originals-boasts-new-international-competitionTo show our appreciation to Team AZK and the PPSL [wren's note: for promoting IPL, or claiming to], we here at IGN eSports have decided to make the Philippine PRO Starcraft 2 League the official SEA qualifying event for our event after IPL: Origins. This WAS the PPSL, who IGN gave a seed to their tournament to award to their winner. Sorry no, it used to be the PPSL, but this was not the PPSL when the event started. The PPSL became the IGN Prolegue Season 4 Pacific Qualifiers.
Is that like how the GSL Open Season 1 became the 2010 TG Sambo Intel Global Starcraft II Open Season 1?
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On November 11 2011 07:05 Elean wrote:Show nested quote +On November 11 2011 06:52 Wren wrote:On November 11 2011 06:11 SarsFlu wrote:
The PPSL, as far as I can tell, did not exist until this event. The IPL has been in existence since basically the beginning of SC2? And they announced the event as an IGN ProLeague SEA Qualifier. See the difference?
PPSL had been running insignificant, unhyped tournaments all summer. They finally talked IGN into sponsoring them and including a seed as a prize. AZK came up with the name-dropping tournament name on their own. Notice that they even swapped the classification as the SEA qualifier for a title more similar to their own tournaments. On November 11 2011 06:34 Elean wrote:
There is something you fail to understand.
It was not the PPSL, it was the "IGN ProLeague Season 4 Pacific Qualifiers", an IGN event. This is extremely clear. Read IGN's statement. http://www.ign.com/ipl/news/2011/08/22/ipl-originals-boasts-new-international-competitionTo show our appreciation to Team AZK and the PPSL [wren's note: for promoting IPL, or claiming to], we here at IGN eSports have decided to make the Philippine PRO Starcraft 2 League the official SEA qualifying event for our event after IPL: Origins. This WAS the PPSL, who IGN gave a seed to their tournament to award to their winner. Sorry no, it used to be the PPSL, but this was not the PPSL when the event started. The PPSL became the IGN Prolegue Season 4 Pacific Qualifiers.
For that to be anything more than a name, IGN would have had to be more heavily involved than 'naming sponsor.'
edit: see above response.
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On November 11 2011 07:09 Wren wrote:Show nested quote +On November 11 2011 07:05 Elean wrote:On November 11 2011 06:52 Wren wrote:On November 11 2011 06:11 SarsFlu wrote:
The PPSL, as far as I can tell, did not exist until this event. The IPL has been in existence since basically the beginning of SC2? And they announced the event as an IGN ProLeague SEA Qualifier. See the difference?
PPSL had been running insignificant, unhyped tournaments all summer. They finally talked IGN into sponsoring them and including a seed as a prize. AZK came up with the name-dropping tournament name on their own. Notice that they even swapped the classification as the SEA qualifier for a title more similar to their own tournaments. On November 11 2011 06:34 Elean wrote:
There is something you fail to understand.
It was not the PPSL, it was the "IGN ProLeague Season 4 Pacific Qualifiers", an IGN event. This is extremely clear. Read IGN's statement. http://www.ign.com/ipl/news/2011/08/22/ipl-originals-boasts-new-international-competitionTo show our appreciation to Team AZK and the PPSL [wren's note: for promoting IPL, or claiming to], we here at IGN eSports have decided to make the Philippine PRO Starcraft 2 League the official SEA qualifying event for our event after IPL: Origins. This WAS the PPSL, who IGN gave a seed to their tournament to award to their winner. Sorry no, it used to be the PPSL, but this was not the PPSL when the event started. The PPSL became the IGN Prolegue Season 4 Pacific Qualifiers. For that to be anything more than a name, IGN would have had to be more heavily involved than 'naming sponsor.' edit: see above response.
More involved, you mean streaming the event on their site ? Sending their staff ? Advertising the event ?
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On November 11 2011 07:11 Elean wrote:Show nested quote +On November 11 2011 07:09 Wren wrote:On November 11 2011 07:05 Elean wrote:On November 11 2011 06:52 Wren wrote:On November 11 2011 06:11 SarsFlu wrote:
The PPSL, as far as I can tell, did not exist until this event. The IPL has been in existence since basically the beginning of SC2? And they announced the event as an IGN ProLeague SEA Qualifier. See the difference?
PPSL had been running insignificant, unhyped tournaments all summer. They finally talked IGN into sponsoring them and including a seed as a prize. AZK came up with the name-dropping tournament name on their own. Notice that they even swapped the classification as the SEA qualifier for a title more similar to their own tournaments. On November 11 2011 06:34 Elean wrote:
There is something you fail to understand.
It was not the PPSL, it was the "IGN ProLeague Season 4 Pacific Qualifiers", an IGN event. This is extremely clear. Read IGN's statement. http://www.ign.com/ipl/news/2011/08/22/ipl-originals-boasts-new-international-competitionTo show our appreciation to Team AZK and the PPSL [wren's note: for promoting IPL, or claiming to], we here at IGN eSports have decided to make the Philippine PRO Starcraft 2 League the official SEA qualifying event for our event after IPL: Origins. This WAS the PPSL, who IGN gave a seed to their tournament to award to their winner. Sorry no, it used to be the PPSL, but this was not the PPSL when the event started. The PPSL became the IGN Prolegue Season 4 Pacific Qualifiers. For that to be anything more than a name, IGN would have had to be more heavily involved than 'naming sponsor.' edit: see above response. More involved, you mean streaming the event on their site ? Sending their staff ? Advertising the event ?
Yes, I do. IGN didn't promote, they didn't send staff, and they only allowed the PPSL staff to stream to their site (the speed with which that permission was revoked speaks volumes to just how disconnected they were). The stream tech himself has posted a huge critique of Gus, including tidbits about just how alone he was in his efforts.
EDIT: here's the only "hype" I can find: http://www.sc2sea.com/showthread.php?t=2570
Notice who it's posted by.
LOL, from the same thread:
Team AZK and the PPSL are led and organized by Gus "AZKwitchdoc" Ledesma. We at the PPSL are doing our very best to make this event as successful as it can be. We appreciate the support. FOR ESPORTS!
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I said that "The responsibility of the sponsor is to make sure that their support is done properly and (for their own sake) well spent" Which means that checking out the partner before they partner is their responsibility, yes. IGN made a mistake in that regard. I made that clear. But the responsibility would not shift, even if Gus were to vanish off the face of the earth. Using the poker example from a few posts above, if you sponsor a poker player, then he goes to the event, pulls a gun, and robs it, that is his issue. If the thief flees and is never found, that sponsor isn't liable for what the thief did and paying back that money, because responsibility does not shift like that.
And the PPSL definitely existed before IGN stepped in to provide a sponsorship, and this was always made clear from the start. Even when it was being hyped on the IGN stream, they continually called it the PPSL. There was never any doubt in my mind as to who was the organizer and who was the sponsor.
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IPL is great. So happy you guys are around.
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On November 11 2011 07:05 Elean wrote:Show nested quote +On November 11 2011 06:52 Wren wrote:On November 11 2011 06:11 SarsFlu wrote:
The PPSL, as far as I can tell, did not exist until this event. The IPL has been in existence since basically the beginning of SC2? And they announced the event as an IGN ProLeague SEA Qualifier. See the difference?
PPSL had been running insignificant, unhyped tournaments all summer. They finally talked IGN into sponsoring them and including a seed as a prize. AZK came up with the name-dropping tournament name on their own. Notice that they even swapped the classification as the SEA qualifier for a title more similar to their own tournaments. On November 11 2011 06:34 Elean wrote:
There is something you fail to understand.
It was not the PPSL, it was the "IGN ProLeague Season 4 Pacific Qualifiers", an IGN event. This is extremely clear. Read IGN's statement. http://www.ign.com/ipl/news/2011/08/22/ipl-originals-boasts-new-international-competitionTo show our appreciation to Team AZK and the PPSL [wren's note: for promoting IPL, or claiming to], we here at IGN eSports have decided to make the Philippine PRO Starcraft 2 League the official SEA qualifying event for our event after IPL: Origins. This WAS the PPSL, who IGN gave a seed to their tournament to award to their winner. Sorry no, it used to be the PPSL, but this was not the PPSL when the event started. The PPSL became the IGN Prolegue Season 4 Pacific Qualifiers.
You and quite a few others seem to be missing a fundamental point of the buissness side of things.
Rebranding an event to go along with a sponsor or turning your event into a feeder/qualifier for another tournament does not necessarily (and actually usually) change anything on YOUR side of things.
I'll give you an example, say i run a fairly successfull tennis tournament below the challenge league level, basically an amateur event run by volunteers (what some local SC2 tournaments currently are). If a regional challenger tournament approaches me and says they want to sponsor my event and will give me 14k + streaming rights on their channel (which has far more exposure than my own options) I'd be a fool not to take it. What changes for me? I'd probably have to rename my tournament and promote it according to the new name and the new prizes.
What doesn't change? I still have to run my own god damn tournament just as i was planning before, the only fundamental difference is, I now have 14k dollars from a sponsor to add to my budget.
In return for that i will most likely have to sign a contract specifying what i must do for it to remain a feeder tournament (run a fair tournament, stick to the rules etc.).
Maybe that is a step IPL missed, or maybe they have such a contract but do not think it is in their best interest to pursue legal action, who knows, but they certainly ain't responsible to send a staff to run the event for me just because they became main sponsor and are allowed to stick logos all over the stage (as every main sponsor does).
What probably creates some confusion is the fact that the Sponsor in our specific case is a broadcasting service themselves. If the sponser in question had been Coca Cola we certainly wouldn't have this debate (or at least i hope so) even if the laws behind it don't change at all.
(edit: fixed a typo and removed one word which got left over from a draft sentence i deleted)
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They had more than 1 sponsor, I think we should attack them all! That will definitely encourage them to sponsor other events in the future!
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+ Show Spoiler +On November 11 2011 06:11 SarsFlu wrote:Show nested quote +On November 11 2011 05:30 Fyrewolf wrote:
So then when MLG winners get seeded into the GSL, that makes MLG actually a GSL(sanctioned) event by your logic? So GSL actually took over MLG, there is no real MLG because they are actually just GSL events. That's not how it works though. Just because the winner gets seeded does not automatically equate the two groups into one. The PPSL is still the PPSL, and the IPL is the IPL, just the winner of the PPSL gets qualified for IPL. That does NOT mean that the PPSL is an IPL event, they are two separate groups. The i44Multiplay is the next regional organizer, but that doesn't mean that IGN now owns the Multiplay name or brand or anything, they are still separate groups.
The relationship is sponsors give money/equipment to the event, the organizer makes the event happen. If the event doesn't happen right, it's not the sponsor's fault for giving money. It's the organizer's fault for not organizing the tournament right. The responsibility of the sponsor is to make sure that their support is done properly and (for their own sake) well spent, NOT to be responsible for actually organizing the tournament.
IGN has already admitted their mistake in trusting Gus and learned their lesson from it. But their mistake was not the mismanaging of the tournament, their mistake was the misplacement of trust and support into Gus. The responsibility lies with the ORGANIZERS, not the SPONSOR. IGN (or any other organization sponsoring, Nvida, Razer, etc.) can never responsible for someone else's mistakes of mismanagement, but ONLY their own mistake of misplaced support and trust.
And that screencap means absolutely nothing. When you sponsor an event, your name gets plastered on everything. I don't believe that Coca Cola built the stadium, hired a team, and organized the football game when I see their logo on the sideline posters. That's just silly.
Admittedly IGN did make a mistake in their judgement, which they learned from and will be better for it in the future. But they were not the one's who did the mismanaging. To say they are responsible for the outcomes of someone else's mistake shifts the responsibility away from where it belongs, away from the guy that FAILED in his responsibility to organize the tournament right. You can't hold a higher up accountable for the failure of the lower down, but only hold them accountable for choosing the guy who failed. Ok, I just had to reply to a few parts of this. Equating the exchange program between MLG and GSL to this is just silly. Those two leagues set up the agreement to cross promote their two leagues and to help grow SC2 esports. GSL sends players to MLG, MLG gets to send some players to GSL. The MLG NEVER lists their tournaments as a qualifier for the GSL, only that succeeding in their events qualifies certain players for the GSL. The PPSL, as far as I can tell, did not exist until this event. The IPL has been in existence since basically the beginning of SC2? And they announced the event as an IGN ProLeague SEA Qualifier. See the difference? Your points in the middle I addressed in my last post so I'll skip it. Your last paragraph misses my point. Obviously Gus is primarily responsible. But WHAT IF he runs away, and cannot be found? Then who is the next in line for accountability? thegunrun, amanda, and the other people footing the bill right now? They're stuck with it now, and legally, maybe they should be. But the company running the IPL, who put their name on it, should show more compassion and concern for an event bearing their name. And your last sentence troubles me quite a bit. So you're saying that people higher up should NOT be held accountable for the people under them? How does that work? If someone under you fails and cannot correct something, the responsibility should move either UP the chain, or from the top of the chain, NOT down the chain or from the bottom.
I'm sorry again but if you look at it properly IGN and PPSL helped each other through cross promotion as well like what you say for GSL and MLG. IPL doesn't really have a concrete presence here in SEA or at least wants to be more established and PPSL needs the additional promotion for future events its going to hold, as such cross promoting themselves is one of the "no-need-to-mention" and automatic perk of the sponsoring of PPSL by IGN.
I really agree with one post. Just because IGN does e-sports events, some are calling them out to do more. That is why I keep emphasizing they are a sponsor (regardless whether or not they are major or minor). It was and has always been the PPSL, with the perk (a sponsorship in kind) to give the winner an IPL slot. If IGN as a sponsor didn't make it a qualifier, what was the whole point of sponsoring the event then? Why even bother giving out 14k usd for something that does not in any way help your brand as a sponsor.
They have never been found to have stated they are part of the organizing body. Granted they had an interest in it, but so do all sponsors. It's marketing and promotion, a commercial interest. But just because you have an interest as a sponsor doesn't give you any form of responsibility for the event that messed up. Unless you can find a law that states such, I don't think you should even be expecting that from any type of sponsor.
For those that are asking why then did they bother to fly in guys from IGN to PPSL? Well, it's plain and simple, to help and assist in any way based on their experience from past events. What they didn't expect to find when they got here was there was no organization of the event. Just stuff to be used for the event with a lot of problems that came along with the disorganization. Heck, if you think about it more, when IGN pulled out, I surely would have expected IGN personnel to simply stop going for day 2. But they didn't. The same way they didn't pull out in giving the slot for IPL4 to the winner. They still kept their end in that regard for the assistance.
So kudos to IGN.
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EPT
