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What's up with the low sample size for this month compared to past months?
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On November 07 2011 12:45 skatbone wrote:Show nested quote +On November 07 2011 10:08 doko100 wrote:
You can hate on pro terrans all you want, but this hate towards master- terrans has to stop, it's irrational since terran already is underrepresented in Masters League (and in the lower leagues down to silver) and have the least average points. protoss player or even zerg players at that level of play have absolutely no right to complain about terran. pro imbalance doesn't affect them at all. We are the one's struggling at master, they are not. Show me some hate that isn't irrational. The use of reason to justify hate leads to some pretty disgusting situations. Hitler did a great job rationalizing hate; European colonial powers rationalized dehumanization of indigenous populations--I'd argue that is hate as well. My point: you're barking up the wrong tree in telling someone else that their feelings on balance aren't justified. As an earlier poster suggested, while we have statistics/facts, we are biased by the races we play. And many people in this thread are being selective about which stats they are highlighting. Still others are inventing things or reading into facts in exaggerated ways. Welcome to argumentation about something we care about. Only your rhetoric textbooks can expertly separate logos from pathos. Now I'm all for mitigating general rage in SCII as a gesture toward better community. But toss aren't inventing rage and hate toward Terrans. A lot of toss feel legitimately ripped off by this game right now. You are welcome to throw facts at us and tell us our hate is not rational. From that privileged position, you can dismiss about the 99% of the material that passes for argument on TeamLiquid or on the Internet for that matter. tl;dr Please refrain from telling people they have no right to complain. While I don't want "hate" either (I have never professed a hate of Terrans), I read you as asking toss players to drop their frustrations about their struggles because Terran struggle more. Why? Why is this a conversation about who deserves the right to feel frustrated? Obviously, a lot of us, across races, are frustrated with this game right now.
Yes, everyone has the right to be fustrated about game balance. However, what is really annoying is how everybody delegitimizes your wins just because you play terran. When we win, its not cause we outplayed our opponents, its because Terran is OP. Its not our fault that we play the race that people percieve as being OP. So please, stop hating on Terran players just because they play Terran.
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On November 07 2011 12:41 Plansix wrote:Show nested quote +On November 07 2011 11:07 aksfjh wrote:On November 07 2011 10:46 Plansix wrote:On November 07 2011 09:57 aksfjh wrote:On November 07 2011 09:52 Musketeer wrote:On November 07 2011 09:45 doko100 wrote:On November 07 2011 09:42 Silidons wrote:On November 07 2011 09:36 doko100 wrote:On November 07 2011 09:33 Maxhster wrote:
doko which ladder stats are you refferring to? do you have a link to those? sc2ranks Terran has by far the least players in masters (and diamond... and platinum.... and gold... and also grandmaster), least average points and protoss on the other hand is the complete opposite. If you want to complain about protoss, then look at the stats at your level of play. I'm fairly confident that none of you are pro players and terrans are actually the ones struggling on the ladder, so the question is... who should be complaining? We terrans are not really, but should the protoss players be complaining unless they are pros? No, it's irrational. HAHAHAH so you're not comparing stats like win rates but only how many players are in what league. that is comical my friend, comical. please do continue as you seem to be a genius. They are the most underrepresented race in the higher league with the least average points..really comical isn't it? Obviously their win rates have to be worse for there to be less terrans in the higher leagues compared to P and Z players when they are the most played race in the lower leagues, only logical explanation, or terrans are just worse and can't get out of silver league or they lose games on purpose. Just checked SC2ranks. Pretty much everything you just said is wrong. From today: ![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/VY5qu.png) From July 17: ![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/Cu6xw.png) Terran population is slowly declining. Not sure which SC2ranks site you're looking at, but if you think he's wrong, it's not the right one. None of that should have much effect on the stats. The graphs posted by the OP are for win-rates, so fewer players only means fewer games of that specific match up. That would have a limited/no effect of the win-rates, since the sample size is so large(over 25K games). Even if the were 10% less terrans that the other two races, that's still THOUSANDS of games. And none of those graphs show a difference of anything lose to that. Also, random is included in those stats. 1/3 of those games are terran games. Why do Terrans bring this up every month: "Look, I know the stats say we are winning every match up. That looks like an issue, but its a lie. We are doing the worst on the ladder because we have fewer players. I know that does sound logical, but think about it. We are beating fewer protoss and zergs that we did last month. That means our number of total wins are declining, so we ARE doing worse. So just ignore those stats, they don't show the true story. They are only numbers." We're not talking about Terran ladder numbers affecting number of games played or winrates at pro level. We talk about ladder populations as an indicator of possible imbalance beyond the pro level. When you take into account a dwindling Terran population and lack of success outside of Korea, it paints a very different picture than the one most people portray on various SC2 communities. What's more, the complaints registered against Terrans generally come from non-pro players, in the plat-masters range anyways. Thus, detailed discussions often end up being tailored towards complaining about Terran strengths and possible nerfs at lower levels of play, that would affect already dwindling populations. It's not often that level-headed people enter a discussion about the TvX matchup suggesting a 5s rax buildtime nerf. Instead, it's usually along the lines of, "Marines should only have 4 range!" "MULEs should have a long cooldown!" "EMP should be a single target ability!" All these stats about lower level play are just trying to bring perspective to the numbers. That perspective is, "Outside the EXTREME top of the playerbase, Terrans have a hard time." It's more of a call to rational discussion than anything else. I am very confused by your points. The data you are referencing in the "dwindling Terran population" show that terran is either A: is greater than the other two races, B: has close to equal numbers, being only off by 2-4%. Even at the highest level, GM, the numbers are close when there is only 200 of them per server. There is no dwindling population, the numbers are just not 33% terran, 33% protoss, 33% zerg, 1% random. Even at GM the numbers wouldn't be like that because it is only referencing 200 people, which is a small sample size. I have NEVER seen any evidence that terrans are having a rough time on the ladder. I understand the frustration of playing a race and having everyone say it is overpowered. Its not like it is not a challenge to play SC2. It diminishes your wins, which you felt were hard to come by. If you are having problems with a match up, it doesn't help to hear that everyone else is winning it. There was a time earlier this year when everyone thought Protoss was unstoppable and then they got nerf and stuff got buffed. Personally, I never felt any of the unstoppable in my play, but I dealt with it and moved on. But I did get tired of seeing the posts about removing force-field from the game.
Take a moment to cycle through the stats page on SC2 ranks, going through each of the patches. We've seen a huge growth in Zerg throughout most of the leagues, at the almost pure expense of Terran. You may not think that 2-4% is much in race distribution, but it shows that there are 15-30% fewer Terrans compared to the other races individually. Then compare that with 3, 6, 9, etc. months ago and we get a picture where Terrans are slipping in population.
During the same span of time, we saw Terran do relatively well in the pro scene. There was a lot of talk about Terran being really strong, which would lead one to believe that people would be switching to Terran. However, with such a population shift in the other direction, there has to be some other reason which dissuades people from Terran which is enough to ignore top level results. If community consensus was really that adamant in thinking Terran is strong or OP, there would HAVE to be more people flocking to the race. Instead, people are fleeing.
On November 07 2011 12:59 thedirtyleg wrote:
What's up with the low sample size for this month compared to past months?
Probably the relative pause that occurred around Blizzcon. Blizzcon was relatively game-light and a lot of events didn't want to compete with the event.
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United Kingdom20326 Posts
On November 07 2011 13:19 kofman wrote:Show nested quote +On November 07 2011 12:45 skatbone wrote:On November 07 2011 10:08 doko100 wrote:
You can hate on pro terrans all you want, but this hate towards master- terrans has to stop, it's irrational since terran already is underrepresented in Masters League (and in the lower leagues down to silver) and have the least average points. protoss player or even zerg players at that level of play have absolutely no right to complain about terran. pro imbalance doesn't affect them at all. We are the one's struggling at master, they are not. Show me some hate that isn't irrational. The use of reason to justify hate leads to some pretty disgusting situations. Hitler did a great job rationalizing hate; European colonial powers rationalized dehumanization of indigenous populations--I'd argue that is hate as well. My point: you're barking up the wrong tree in telling someone else that their feelings on balance aren't justified. As an earlier poster suggested, while we have statistics/facts, we are biased by the races we play. And many people in this thread are being selective about which stats they are highlighting. Still others are inventing things or reading into facts in exaggerated ways. Welcome to argumentation about something we care about. Only your rhetoric textbooks can expertly separate logos from pathos. Now I'm all for mitigating general rage in SCII as a gesture toward better community. But toss aren't inventing rage and hate toward Terrans. A lot of toss feel legitimately ripped off by this game right now. You are welcome to throw facts at us and tell us our hate is not rational. From that privileged position, you can dismiss about the 99% of the material that passes for argument on TeamLiquid or on the Internet for that matter. tl;dr Please refrain from telling people they have no right to complain. While I don't want "hate" either (I have never professed a hate of Terrans), I read you as asking toss players to drop their frustrations about their struggles because Terran struggle more. Why? Why is this a conversation about who deserves the right to feel frustrated? Obviously, a lot of us, across races, are frustrated with this game right now. Yes, everyone has the right to be fustrated about game balance. However, what is really annoying is how everybody delegitimizes your wins just because you play terran. When we win, its not cause we outplayed our opponents, its because Terran is OP. Its not our fault that we play the race that people percieve as being OP. So please, stop hating on Terran players just because they play Terran.
People who say this are too afraid to admit their own losses.
I get frustrated with terran often, but only because at my MMR, approx 80% of PvT games are a one-base all in from the terran side.
Terran is the only race that can get away with this, and is definatly the most dangerous at 1 base all ins. There is so much stuff they can do... I doubt any good player could tell you that 4gate 3gate/star or 1 base roach ling would be very hard to hold if they knew it was coming, but if you know terran is doing a 1 base all in, it is another story
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On November 07 2011 13:34 Cyro wrote:Show nested quote +On November 07 2011 13:19 kofman wrote:On November 07 2011 12:45 skatbone wrote:On November 07 2011 10:08 doko100 wrote:
You can hate on pro terrans all you want, but this hate towards master- terrans has to stop, it's irrational since terran already is underrepresented in Masters League (and in the lower leagues down to silver) and have the least average points. protoss player or even zerg players at that level of play have absolutely no right to complain about terran. pro imbalance doesn't affect them at all. We are the one's struggling at master, they are not. Show me some hate that isn't irrational. The use of reason to justify hate leads to some pretty disgusting situations. Hitler did a great job rationalizing hate; European colonial powers rationalized dehumanization of indigenous populations--I'd argue that is hate as well. My point: you're barking up the wrong tree in telling someone else that their feelings on balance aren't justified. As an earlier poster suggested, while we have statistics/facts, we are biased by the races we play. And many people in this thread are being selective about which stats they are highlighting. Still others are inventing things or reading into facts in exaggerated ways. Welcome to argumentation about something we care about. Only your rhetoric textbooks can expertly separate logos from pathos. Now I'm all for mitigating general rage in SCII as a gesture toward better community. But toss aren't inventing rage and hate toward Terrans. A lot of toss feel legitimately ripped off by this game right now. You are welcome to throw facts at us and tell us our hate is not rational. From that privileged position, you can dismiss about the 99% of the material that passes for argument on TeamLiquid or on the Internet for that matter. tl;dr Please refrain from telling people they have no right to complain. While I don't want "hate" either (I have never professed a hate of Terrans), I read you as asking toss players to drop their frustrations about their struggles because Terran struggle more. Why? Why is this a conversation about who deserves the right to feel frustrated? Obviously, a lot of us, across races, are frustrated with this game right now. Yes, everyone has the right to be fustrated about game balance. However, what is really annoying is how everybody delegitimizes your wins just because you play terran. When we win, its not cause we outplayed our opponents, its because Terran is OP. Its not our fault that we play the race that people percieve as being OP. So please, stop hating on Terran players just because they play Terran. People who say this are too afraid to admit their own losses. I get frustrated with terran often, but only because at my MMR, approx 80% of PvT games are a one-base all in from the terran side. Terran is the only race that can get away with this, and is definatly the most dangerous at 1 base all ins. There is so much stuff they can do... I doubt any good player could tell you that 4gate 3gate/star or 1 base roach ling would be very hard to hold if they knew it was coming, but if you know terran is doing a 1 base all in, it is another story
Doesn't exactly help that they can all-in repeatedly, either.
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On November 07 2011 13:35 Daralii wrote:Show nested quote +On November 07 2011 13:34 Cyro wrote:On November 07 2011 13:19 kofman wrote:On November 07 2011 12:45 skatbone wrote:On November 07 2011 10:08 doko100 wrote:
You can hate on pro terrans all you want, but this hate towards master- terrans has to stop, it's irrational since terran already is underrepresented in Masters League (and in the lower leagues down to silver) and have the least average points. protoss player or even zerg players at that level of play have absolutely no right to complain about terran. pro imbalance doesn't affect them at all. We are the one's struggling at master, they are not. Show me some hate that isn't irrational. The use of reason to justify hate leads to some pretty disgusting situations. Hitler did a great job rationalizing hate; European colonial powers rationalized dehumanization of indigenous populations--I'd argue that is hate as well. My point: you're barking up the wrong tree in telling someone else that their feelings on balance aren't justified. As an earlier poster suggested, while we have statistics/facts, we are biased by the races we play. And many people in this thread are being selective about which stats they are highlighting. Still others are inventing things or reading into facts in exaggerated ways. Welcome to argumentation about something we care about. Only your rhetoric textbooks can expertly separate logos from pathos. Now I'm all for mitigating general rage in SCII as a gesture toward better community. But toss aren't inventing rage and hate toward Terrans. A lot of toss feel legitimately ripped off by this game right now. You are welcome to throw facts at us and tell us our hate is not rational. From that privileged position, you can dismiss about the 99% of the material that passes for argument on TeamLiquid or on the Internet for that matter. tl;dr Please refrain from telling people they have no right to complain. While I don't want "hate" either (I have never professed a hate of Terrans), I read you as asking toss players to drop their frustrations about their struggles because Terran struggle more. Why? Why is this a conversation about who deserves the right to feel frustrated? Obviously, a lot of us, across races, are frustrated with this game right now. Yes, everyone has the right to be fustrated about game balance. However, what is really annoying is how everybody delegitimizes your wins just because you play terran. When we win, its not cause we outplayed our opponents, its because Terran is OP. Its not our fault that we play the race that people percieve as being OP. So please, stop hating on Terran players just because they play Terran. People who say this are too afraid to admit their own losses. I get frustrated with terran often, but only because at my MMR, approx 80% of PvT games are a one-base all in from the terran side. Terran is the only race that can get away with this, and is definatly the most dangerous at 1 base all ins. There is so much stuff they can do... I doubt any good player could tell you that 4gate 3gate/star or 1 base roach ling would be very hard to hold if they knew it was coming, but if you know terran is doing a 1 base all in, it is another story Doesn't exactly help that they can all-in repeatedly, either.
I just watched it happen on JYPs stream, it was freaking depressing. He held off the first push with style, but then got picked at by cloaked banshees until......the second all in arrived with about 20 marines and more SCVs. Why worry about the pesky need to expand and macroing. Just get a bunch of marines, tanks and some flying deathcannons and win games.
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On November 07 2011 10:57 Lewan72 wrote:
Guys its cuz terran players are just better.
one of the few true posts here.... didnt david kim said in an interview that the problem isnt really the balance, it is that so many really skilled players play terran, and not p or z?
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On November 07 2011 13:43 MyLastSerenade wrote:Show nested quote +On November 07 2011 10:57 Lewan72 wrote:
Guys its cuz terran players are just better. one of the few true posts here.... didnt david kim said in an interview that the problem isnt really the balance, it is that so many really skilled players play terran, and not p or z?
Sarcastic I assume? It is hard to tell on the internet. But I am sure that is the problem, that all the best players in the world just went to terran because they were on the box. The other races got lack luster players and will only reach their true potential when terran players get tired of winning and switch races.
I am sure that is it.
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wanna know why protoss lose to zerg, muta are hard as hell to kills in PVZ
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Want to see the korean one, not that international play isn't a decent measure, its just that KR is on another level.
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People shouldnt apply this to there ladder games. The ladder winrates are obviously much different (obviously puts you against similar players).
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On November 07 2011 14:03 Hipsv wrote:
Want to see the korean one, not that international play isn't a decent measure, its just that KR is on another level.
Except that the Korean graph is heavily influenced by the results of 1 or 2 players. At the very least, international play showcases hundreds of games over 1 weekend. Korean stats are comprised over only a couple of dozen of games a week.
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On November 07 2011 13:34 Cyro wrote:Show nested quote +On November 07 2011 13:19 kofman wrote:On November 07 2011 12:45 skatbone wrote:On November 07 2011 10:08 doko100 wrote:
You can hate on pro terrans all you want, but this hate towards master- terrans has to stop, it's irrational since terran already is underrepresented in Masters League (and in the lower leagues down to silver) and have the least average points. protoss player or even zerg players at that level of play have absolutely no right to complain about terran. pro imbalance doesn't affect them at all. We are the one's struggling at master, they are not. Show me some hate that isn't irrational. The use of reason to justify hate leads to some pretty disgusting situations. Hitler did a great job rationalizing hate; European colonial powers rationalized dehumanization of indigenous populations--I'd argue that is hate as well. My point: you're barking up the wrong tree in telling someone else that their feelings on balance aren't justified. As an earlier poster suggested, while we have statistics/facts, we are biased by the races we play. And many people in this thread are being selective about which stats they are highlighting. Still others are inventing things or reading into facts in exaggerated ways. Welcome to argumentation about something we care about. Only your rhetoric textbooks can expertly separate logos from pathos. Now I'm all for mitigating general rage in SCII as a gesture toward better community. But toss aren't inventing rage and hate toward Terrans. A lot of toss feel legitimately ripped off by this game right now. You are welcome to throw facts at us and tell us our hate is not rational. From that privileged position, you can dismiss about the 99% of the material that passes for argument on TeamLiquid or on the Internet for that matter. tl;dr Please refrain from telling people they have no right to complain. While I don't want "hate" either (I have never professed a hate of Terrans), I read you as asking toss players to drop their frustrations about their struggles because Terran struggle more. Why? Why is this a conversation about who deserves the right to feel frustrated? Obviously, a lot of us, across races, are frustrated with this game right now. Yes, everyone has the right to be fustrated about game balance. However, what is really annoying is how everybody delegitimizes your wins just because you play terran. When we win, its not cause we outplayed our opponents, its because Terran is OP. Its not our fault that we play the race that people percieve as being OP. So please, stop hating on Terran players just because they play Terran. People who say this are too afraid to admit their own losses. I get frustrated with terran often, but only because at my MMR, approx 80% of PvT games are a one-base all in from the terran side. Terran is the only race that can get away with this, and is definatly the most dangerous at 1 base all ins. There is so much stuff they can do... I doubt any good player could tell you that 4gate 3gate/star or 1 base roach ling would be very hard to hold if they knew it was coming, but if you know terran is doing a 1 base all in, it is another story
Are you saying that Terran players deserve to get flamed? Also, on the point of how hard 1-base terran all-ins are to hold, Protoss 1 base all-ins are no joke, either. The void ray all-in is sooo hard to hold, especially if the stargate is proxied somewhere.
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I'm surprise with all of those number :O i thought toss was getting better o.O
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Poor Protoss 
To the idiots complaining about the scale of the axis, THERE IS NOTHING WRONG WITH IT.
1. The purpose of zooming in is to show the trends of the matchups, on a relative level and not an absolute one.
2. All the matchups use the exact same scale so you can compare the trends across.
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Why is the word ladder even brought up in this thread. I don't understand.
And the scale of the axis isn't some evil conspiracy. It's the correct way to do it.
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I am sorry even if 45-50 isn't a big deal, if every month it's 45-50 in favor of one race without variation that shows a clear imbalance.
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As far as I know Protoss already dominates the ladder, right? And most Zergs I know have a lot of problems in ZvP. The MU seems unwinnable at times.
I think the problem with Protoss maybe the skill ceiling. They feel overwhelmingly powerful at my level, but maybe they lack the flexibility of the other races for the pros. Their timings feel much more powerful than what any other races can do, but when people learn to deal with them it seems there is nothing else.
Now, the question needs to be asked, is it really that there is no solid way to play Protoss without relying on these pushes, or is it that the players were so used to get free wins with 4G/6G/deathball that they don't know another way to play?
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On November 07 2011 12:59 thedirtyleg wrote:
What's up with the low sample size for this month compared to past months?
Who knows, but we can clearly conclude that it makes this month's % inaccurate.
If there was a larger sample size, I'm sure we can all agree that PvT would be 50/50, maybe Protoss even being a bit OP.
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EPT
