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On November 07 2011 09:42 Silidons wrote:Show nested quote +On November 07 2011 09:36 doko100 wrote:On November 07 2011 09:33 Maxhster wrote:
doko which ladder stats are you refferring to? do you have a link to those? sc2ranks Terran has by far the least players in masters (and diamond... and platinum.... and gold... and also grandmaster), least average points and protoss on the other hand is the complete opposite. If you want to complain about protoss, then look at the stats at your level of play. I'm fairly confident that none of you are pro players and terrans are actually the ones struggling on the ladder, so the question is... who should be complaining? We terrans are not really, but should the protoss players be complaining unless they are pros? No, it's irrational. HAHAHAH so you're not comparing stats like win rates but only how many players are in what league. that is comical my friend, comical. please do continue as you seem to be a genius.
They are the most underrepresented race in the higher league with the least average points..really comical isn't it? Obviously their win rates have to be worse for there to be less terrans in the higher leagues compared to P and Z players when they are the most played race in the lower leagues, only logical explanation, or terrans are just worse and can't get out of silver league or they lose games on purpose.
the fact is that terran is simply harder to play at master/diamond level, because people are not quite good enough to abuse the micro and multitasking, it's even worse in gold and platinum, you can see the numbers declining. but yes, you are right quite comical.
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On November 07 2011 09:25 doko100 wrote:Show nested quote +On November 07 2011 09:24 Silidons wrote:On November 07 2011 09:22 aksfjh wrote:On November 07 2011 09:16 Dfgj wrote:On November 07 2011 09:07 Poopi wrote:
I don' understand the PvT winrates. TvP is almost unwinnable on ladder :/ Yeah your individual experience sure is evidence! Maybe you have a weak matchup? Here, I'll counter: I once lost a PvP to a mid-master player, swapped to T, and beat him with my offrace. Clearly P sucks and T ownz! Except there are a lot of Terran players who have a very hard time with Protoss. If you look around on TL a bit, you'll see this is a common sentiment. Of course, you probably don't care about this point since it goes against your bias. Either way though, TvP has never really been the bane of Protoss anyways. PvZ looks a lot more one sided, but all we hear is T should be nerfed... I'm sure the silver and platinum terrans that have a hard time against a given race is good indicator of what imbalances are when comparing to professional players who do this for their job. It's in Masters aswell, stop being so ignorant and read the rest of the thread. Terrans never complain, but if one of them ever does he gets flamed, fantastic.
Terran don't complain because if they lose, they know that they just suck. Protoss on the other hand: when I lose, who do I look up to for strategies? Every protoss is getting trashed in PvZ and PvT, and the rare wins are void ray busts, DTs and MC and HuK being complete badasses.
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On November 07 2011 09:31 doko100 wrote:Show nested quote +On November 07 2011 09:29 Silidons wrote:On November 07 2011 09:25 doko100 wrote:On November 07 2011 09:24 Silidons wrote:On November 07 2011 09:22 aksfjh wrote:On November 07 2011 09:16 Dfgj wrote:On November 07 2011 09:07 Poopi wrote:
I don' understand the PvT winrates. TvP is almost unwinnable on ladder :/ Yeah your individual experience sure is evidence! Maybe you have a weak matchup? Here, I'll counter: I once lost a PvP to a mid-master player, swapped to T, and beat him with my offrace. Clearly P sucks and T ownz! Except there are a lot of Terran players who have a very hard time with Protoss. If you look around on TL a bit, you'll see this is a common sentiment. Of course, you probably don't care about this point since it goes against your bias. Either way though, TvP has never really been the bane of Protoss anyways. PvZ looks a lot more one sided, but all we hear is T should be nerfed... I'm sure the silver and platinum terrans that have a hard time against a given race is good indicator of what imbalances are when comparing to professional players who do this for their job. It's in Masters aswell, stop being so ignorant and read the rest of the thread. Terrans never complain, but if one of them ever does he gets flamed, fantastic. You tell me to stop being so ignorant and then say terrans never complain. Maybe why pretty much every single pro terran never complains is that if you look at the fucking graph you can see that they have no reason to complain? And when you look at the ladder stats you'll see that protoss is actually dominating and you have no reason to complain either? Terran is actually the weakest race on the ladder. You would only have a right to complain about toss if you were a pro player. Are you a pro player? No? Then what is your problem? Being the dominant race on the ladder isn't good enough for you? Tell me. What do you want?
People complain about Pro level play cause they watch pro's play probably more than they play themselves. And that's absolutely normal, it actually happens in every sport.
Why would anyone care about how strong a race is on the ladder though? There is this thing called the matchmaking system where the game makes sure you have 50% win rate no matter how good or bad you are, no matter how strong or weak your race is. Your playing experience is going to be the same. If you think you are losing more than 50% for whatever reason you are just wrong. If you are losing more than 50% against a specific race then that means you are just bad at that matchup, since your average win rate is 50%.
Also the balance changes that are needed at the pro level will have an almost non existent impact on lower level play. Pro's will take the slightest imbalance and exploit the shit out of it. Lower level matches though are decided 99+% of the times on who forgets to macro less, who does the least suicidal decisions during the game and who's unit composition happens to blind counter what their opponent is doing since no one is really scouting effectively.
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On November 07 2011 09:45 doko100 wrote:Show nested quote +On November 07 2011 09:42 Silidons wrote:On November 07 2011 09:36 doko100 wrote:On November 07 2011 09:33 Maxhster wrote:
doko which ladder stats are you refferring to? do you have a link to those? sc2ranks Terran has by far the least players in masters (and diamond... and platinum.... and gold... and also grandmaster), least average points and protoss on the other hand is the complete opposite. If you want to complain about protoss, then look at the stats at your level of play. I'm fairly confident that none of you are pro players and terrans are actually the ones struggling on the ladder, so the question is... who should be complaining? We terrans are not really, but should the protoss players be complaining unless they are pros? No, it's irrational. HAHAHAH so you're not comparing stats like win rates but only how many players are in what league. that is comical my friend, comical. please do continue as you seem to be a genius. They are the most underrepresented race in the higher league with the least average points..really comical isn't it? Obviously their win rates have to be worse for there to be less terrans in the higher leagues compared to P and Z players when they are the most played race in the lower leagues, only logical explanation, or terrans are just worse and can't get out of silver league or they lose games on purpose. the fact is that terran is simply harder to play at master/diamond level, because people are not quite good enough to abuse the micro and multitasking, it's even worse in gold and platinum, you can see the numbers declining. but yes, you are right quite comical.
you have to be one of the most delusional people i've ever met. firstly, everyone knows that the NA GM got fucked up this season and have people who lost the placement match get put into GM because it was pretty much a first come first serve for getting into GM. the season like just started 2 or 3 weeks ago. the reason why many terrans lose on the ladder is because they don't make ghosts. terrans also have the least volatile mirror matchup thats not a coin flip...
i'm sorry but for some of the terrans on the ladder who lose, you're probably losing to actually better players because you are playing a race that inherently has a better chance to be the winner just by choosing that race. if you play terran you are playing with the odds, and if you pick protoss you are playing against the odds.
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On November 07 2011 09:45 doko100 wrote:Show nested quote +On November 07 2011 09:42 Silidons wrote:On November 07 2011 09:36 doko100 wrote:On November 07 2011 09:33 Maxhster wrote:
doko which ladder stats are you refferring to? do you have a link to those? sc2ranks Terran has by far the least players in masters (and diamond... and platinum.... and gold... and also grandmaster), least average points and protoss on the other hand is the complete opposite. If you want to complain about protoss, then look at the stats at your level of play. I'm fairly confident that none of you are pro players and terrans are actually the ones struggling on the ladder, so the question is... who should be complaining? We terrans are not really, but should the protoss players be complaining unless they are pros? No, it's irrational. HAHAHAH so you're not comparing stats like win rates but only how many players are in what league. that is comical my friend, comical. please do continue as you seem to be a genius. They are the most underrepresented race in the higher league with the least average points..really comical isn't it? Obviously their win rates have to be worse for there to be less terrans in the higher leagues compared to P and Z players when they are the most played race in the lower leagues, only logical explanation, or terrans are just worse and can't get out of silver league or they lose games on purpose.
Just checked SC2ranks. Pretty much everything you just said is wrong.
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On November 07 2011 09:50 Silidons wrote:Show nested quote +On November 07 2011 09:45 doko100 wrote:On November 07 2011 09:42 Silidons wrote:On November 07 2011 09:36 doko100 wrote:On November 07 2011 09:33 Maxhster wrote:
doko which ladder stats are you refferring to? do you have a link to those? sc2ranks Terran has by far the least players in masters (and diamond... and platinum.... and gold... and also grandmaster), least average points and protoss on the other hand is the complete opposite. If you want to complain about protoss, then look at the stats at your level of play. I'm fairly confident that none of you are pro players and terrans are actually the ones struggling on the ladder, so the question is... who should be complaining? We terrans are not really, but should the protoss players be complaining unless they are pros? No, it's irrational. HAHAHAH so you're not comparing stats like win rates but only how many players are in what league. that is comical my friend, comical. please do continue as you seem to be a genius. They are the most underrepresented race in the higher league with the least average points..really comical isn't it? Obviously their win rates have to be worse for there to be less terrans in the higher leagues compared to P and Z players when they are the most played race in the lower leagues, only logical explanation, or terrans are just worse and can't get out of silver league or they lose games on purpose. the fact is that terran is simply harder to play at master/diamond level, because people are not quite good enough to abuse the micro and multitasking, it's even worse in gold and platinum, you can see the numbers declining. but yes, you are right quite comical. you have to be one of the most delusional people i've ever met. firstly, everyone knows that the NA GM got fucked up this season and have people who lost the placement match get put into GM because it was pretty much a first come first serve for getting into GM. the season like just started 2 or 3 weeks ago. the reason why many terrans lose on the ladder is because they don't make ghosts. terrans also have the least volatile mirror matchup thats not a coin flip... i'm sorry but for some of the terrans on the ladder who lose, you're probably losing to actually better players because you are playing a race that inherently has a better chance to be the winner just by choosing that race. if you play terran you are playing with the odds, and if you pick protoss you are playing against the odds.
That is such an inredibly bias post and completely ignoring the ladder statistics I was referring to, this isn't actually an argument, this is just you trying to force your opinion onto others, even though stats prove you wrong and they are conclusive. This is a waste of time, have a good night.
On November 07 2011 09:52 Musketeer wrote:Show nested quote +On November 07 2011 09:45 doko100 wrote:On November 07 2011 09:42 Silidons wrote:On November 07 2011 09:36 doko100 wrote:On November 07 2011 09:33 Maxhster wrote:
doko which ladder stats are you refferring to? do you have a link to those? sc2ranks Terran has by far the least players in masters (and diamond... and platinum.... and gold... and also grandmaster), least average points and protoss on the other hand is the complete opposite. If you want to complain about protoss, then look at the stats at your level of play. I'm fairly confident that none of you are pro players and terrans are actually the ones struggling on the ladder, so the question is... who should be complaining? We terrans are not really, but should the protoss players be complaining unless they are pros? No, it's irrational. HAHAHAH so you're not comparing stats like win rates but only how many players are in what league. that is comical my friend, comical. please do continue as you seem to be a genius. They are the most underrepresented race in the higher league with the least average points..really comical isn't it? Obviously their win rates have to be worse for there to be less terrans in the higher leagues compared to P and Z players when they are the most played race in the lower leagues, only logical explanation, or terrans are just worse and can't get out of silver league or they lose games on purpose. Just checked SC2ranks. Pretty much everything you just said is wrong.
Everything I said is 100% correct. http://www.sc2ranks.com/stats/league/all/1/all
Get your facts straight.
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On November 07 2011 09:52 Musketeer wrote:Show nested quote +On November 07 2011 09:45 doko100 wrote:On November 07 2011 09:42 Silidons wrote:On November 07 2011 09:36 doko100 wrote:On November 07 2011 09:33 Maxhster wrote:
doko which ladder stats are you refferring to? do you have a link to those? sc2ranks Terran has by far the least players in masters (and diamond... and platinum.... and gold... and also grandmaster), least average points and protoss on the other hand is the complete opposite. If you want to complain about protoss, then look at the stats at your level of play. I'm fairly confident that none of you are pro players and terrans are actually the ones struggling on the ladder, so the question is... who should be complaining? We terrans are not really, but should the protoss players be complaining unless they are pros? No, it's irrational. HAHAHAH so you're not comparing stats like win rates but only how many players are in what league. that is comical my friend, comical. please do continue as you seem to be a genius. They are the most underrepresented race in the higher league with the least average points..really comical isn't it? Obviously their win rates have to be worse for there to be less terrans in the higher leagues compared to P and Z players when they are the most played race in the lower leagues, only logical explanation, or terrans are just worse and can't get out of silver league or they lose games on purpose. Just checked SC2ranks. Pretty much everything you just said is wrong.
From today:
![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/VY5qu.png)
From July 17:
![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/Cu6xw.png)
Terran population is slowly declining. Not sure which SC2ranks site you're looking at, but if you think he's wrong, it's not the right one.
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On November 07 2011 09:45 doko100 wrote:Show nested quote +On November 07 2011 09:42 Silidons wrote:On November 07 2011 09:36 doko100 wrote:On November 07 2011 09:33 Maxhster wrote:
doko which ladder stats are you refferring to? do you have a link to those? sc2ranks Terran has by far the least players in masters (and diamond... and platinum.... and gold... and also grandmaster), least average points and protoss on the other hand is the complete opposite. If you want to complain about protoss, then look at the stats at your level of play. I'm fairly confident that none of you are pro players and terrans are actually the ones struggling on the ladder, so the question is... who should be complaining? We terrans are not really, but should the protoss players be complaining unless they are pros? No, it's irrational. HAHAHAH so you're not comparing stats like win rates but only how many players are in what league. that is comical my friend, comical. please do continue as you seem to be a genius. They are the most underrepresented race in the higher league with the least average points..really comical isn't it? Obviously their win rates have to be worse for there to be less terrans in the higher leagues compared to P and Z players when they are the most played race in the lower leagues, only logical explanation, or terrans are just worse and can't get out of silver league or they lose games on purpose. the fact is that terran is simply harder to play at master/diamond level, because people are not quite good enough to abuse the micro and multitasking, it's even worse in gold and platinum, you can see the numbers declining. but yes, you are right quite comical.
FYI, even on Ladder Terran is favoured at Masters and above  . It's a pretty slight advantage (except in Korean TvP where there's a pretty big discrepancy).
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On November 07 2011 09:57 althaz wrote:Show nested quote +On November 07 2011 09:45 doko100 wrote:On November 07 2011 09:42 Silidons wrote:On November 07 2011 09:36 doko100 wrote:On November 07 2011 09:33 Maxhster wrote:
doko which ladder stats are you refferring to? do you have a link to those? sc2ranks Terran has by far the least players in masters (and diamond... and platinum.... and gold... and also grandmaster), least average points and protoss on the other hand is the complete opposite. If you want to complain about protoss, then look at the stats at your level of play. I'm fairly confident that none of you are pro players and terrans are actually the ones struggling on the ladder, so the question is... who should be complaining? We terrans are not really, but should the protoss players be complaining unless they are pros? No, it's irrational. HAHAHAH so you're not comparing stats like win rates but only how many players are in what league. that is comical my friend, comical. please do continue as you seem to be a genius. They are the most underrepresented race in the higher league with the least average points..really comical isn't it? Obviously their win rates have to be worse for there to be less terrans in the higher leagues compared to P and Z players when they are the most played race in the lower leagues, only logical explanation, or terrans are just worse and can't get out of silver league or they lose games on purpose. the fact is that terran is simply harder to play at master/diamond level, because people are not quite good enough to abuse the micro and multitasking, it's even worse in gold and platinum, you can see the numbers declining. but yes, you are right quite comical. FYI, even on Ladder Terran is favoured at Masters and above . It's a pretty slight advantage (except in Korean TvP where there's a pretty big discrepancy).
That makes sense, since they have the lowest win ratio they must obviously be favored. Where do you people get your informations from? I get the feeling you are all making this up.
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On November 07 2011 09:45 doko100 wrote:Show nested quote +On November 07 2011 09:42 Silidons wrote:On November 07 2011 09:36 doko100 wrote:On November 07 2011 09:33 Maxhster wrote:
doko which ladder stats are you refferring to? do you have a link to those? sc2ranks Terran has by far the least players in masters (and diamond... and platinum.... and gold... and also grandmaster), least average points and protoss on the other hand is the complete opposite. If you want to complain about protoss, then look at the stats at your level of play. I'm fairly confident that none of you are pro players and terrans are actually the ones struggling on the ladder, so the question is... who should be complaining? We terrans are not really, but should the protoss players be complaining unless they are pros? No, it's irrational. HAHAHAH so you're not comparing stats like win rates but only how many players are in what league. that is comical my friend, comical. please do continue as you seem to be a genius. They are the most underrepresented race in the higher league with the least average points..really comical isn't it? Obviously their win rates have to be worse for there to be less terrans in the higher leagues compared to P and Z players when they are the most played race in the lower leagues, only logical explanation, or terrans are just worse and can't get out of silver league or they lose games on purpose. the fact is that terran is simply harder to play at master/diamond level, because people are not quite good enough to abuse the micro and multitasking, it's even worse in gold and platinum, you can see the numbers declining. but yes, you are right quite comical.
No offense, but I fail to see how balancing the game around bad players works. They are at that level because they can multitask, macro, micro etc etc. For example, if a diamond lose all his marines to mass blings, blings must be OP to that diamond player. If blizzard address this and nerfs them, then MVP, Bomber, MKP and all those pro players would never lose his marines to blings and would so imbalanced at the pro level.
You can't and shouldn't balance at the lower levels. There's a reason why they're there and they should hope to get better, not complain about this is imbalanced because I suck.
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On November 07 2011 09:54 doko100 wrote:Show nested quote +On November 07 2011 09:50 Silidons wrote:On November 07 2011 09:45 doko100 wrote:On November 07 2011 09:42 Silidons wrote:On November 07 2011 09:36 doko100 wrote:On November 07 2011 09:33 Maxhster wrote:
doko which ladder stats are you refferring to? do you have a link to those? sc2ranks Terran has by far the least players in masters (and diamond... and platinum.... and gold... and also grandmaster), least average points and protoss on the other hand is the complete opposite. If you want to complain about protoss, then look at the stats at your level of play. I'm fairly confident that none of you are pro players and terrans are actually the ones struggling on the ladder, so the question is... who should be complaining? We terrans are not really, but should the protoss players be complaining unless they are pros? No, it's irrational. HAHAHAH so you're not comparing stats like win rates but only how many players are in what league. that is comical my friend, comical. please do continue as you seem to be a genius. They are the most underrepresented race in the higher league with the least average points..really comical isn't it? Obviously their win rates have to be worse for there to be less terrans in the higher leagues compared to P and Z players when they are the most played race in the lower leagues, only logical explanation, or terrans are just worse and can't get out of silver league or they lose games on purpose. the fact is that terran is simply harder to play at master/diamond level, because people are not quite good enough to abuse the micro and multitasking, it's even worse in gold and platinum, you can see the numbers declining. but yes, you are right quite comical. you have to be one of the most delusional people i've ever met. firstly, everyone knows that the NA GM got fucked up this season and have people who lost the placement match get put into GM because it was pretty much a first come first serve for getting into GM. the season like just started 2 or 3 weeks ago. the reason why many terrans lose on the ladder is because they don't make ghosts. terrans also have the least volatile mirror matchup thats not a coin flip... i'm sorry but for some of the terrans on the ladder who lose, you're probably losing to actually better players because you are playing a race that inherently has a better chance to be the winner just by choosing that race. if you play terran you are playing with the odds, and if you pick protoss you are playing against the odds. That is such an inredibly bias post and completely ignoring the ladder statistics I was referring to, this isn't actually an argument, this is just you trying to force your opinion onto others, even though stats prove you wrong and they are conclusive. This is a waste of time, have a good night. Show nested quote +On November 07 2011 09:52 Musketeer wrote:On November 07 2011 09:45 doko100 wrote:On November 07 2011 09:42 Silidons wrote:On November 07 2011 09:36 doko100 wrote:On November 07 2011 09:33 Maxhster wrote:
doko which ladder stats are you refferring to? do you have a link to those? sc2ranks Terran has by far the least players in masters (and diamond... and platinum.... and gold... and also grandmaster), least average points and protoss on the other hand is the complete opposite. If you want to complain about protoss, then look at the stats at your level of play. I'm fairly confident that none of you are pro players and terrans are actually the ones struggling on the ladder, so the question is... who should be complaining? We terrans are not really, but should the protoss players be complaining unless they are pros? No, it's irrational. HAHAHAH so you're not comparing stats like win rates but only how many players are in what league. that is comical my friend, comical. please do continue as you seem to be a genius. They are the most underrepresented race in the higher league with the least average points..really comical isn't it? Obviously their win rates have to be worse for there to be less terrans in the higher leagues compared to P and Z players when they are the most played race in the lower leagues, only logical explanation, or terrans are just worse and can't get out of silver league or they lose games on purpose. Just checked SC2ranks. Pretty much everything you just said is wrong. Everything I said is 100% correct. http://www.sc2ranks.com/stats/league/all/1/allGet your facts straight.
Your stats are quite correct indeed. But why the fuck would we care if Terran is less played by like 5% compared to Protoss? It has *always* been like that. People thought protoss would be cool to play at the beginning of SC2, that's about it.
I'll give you one thing though:
Protoss is ahead of Terran in win ratio in Masters, 50.8% to 50.7%. You're right, Protoss is definitely the strongest ladder race. Oh wait, Zerg has more players in Master and a better winrate? Darn it.
What? MMR? The system is made to yield 50% winrates? Gosh, I guess those stats are pretty useless after all...
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On November 07 2011 10:01 K3Nyy wrote:Show nested quote +On November 07 2011 09:45 doko100 wrote:On November 07 2011 09:42 Silidons wrote:On November 07 2011 09:36 doko100 wrote:On November 07 2011 09:33 Maxhster wrote:
doko which ladder stats are you refferring to? do you have a link to those? sc2ranks Terran has by far the least players in masters (and diamond... and platinum.... and gold... and also grandmaster), least average points and protoss on the other hand is the complete opposite. If you want to complain about protoss, then look at the stats at your level of play. I'm fairly confident that none of you are pro players and terrans are actually the ones struggling on the ladder, so the question is... who should be complaining? We terrans are not really, but should the protoss players be complaining unless they are pros? No, it's irrational. HAHAHAH so you're not comparing stats like win rates but only how many players are in what league. that is comical my friend, comical. please do continue as you seem to be a genius. They are the most underrepresented race in the higher league with the least average points..really comical isn't it? Obviously their win rates have to be worse for there to be less terrans in the higher leagues compared to P and Z players when they are the most played race in the lower leagues, only logical explanation, or terrans are just worse and can't get out of silver league or they lose games on purpose. the fact is that terran is simply harder to play at master/diamond level, because people are not quite good enough to abuse the micro and multitasking, it's even worse in gold and platinum, you can see the numbers declining. but yes, you are right quite comical. No offense, but I fail to see how balancing the game around bad players works. They are at that level because they can multitask, macro, micro etc etc. For example, if a diamond lose all his marines to mass blings, blings must be OP to that diamond player. If blizzard address this and nerfs them, then MVP, Bomber, MKP and all those pro players would never lose his marines to blings and would so imbalanced at the pro level. You can't and shouldn't balance at the lower levels. There's a reason why they're there and they should hope to get better, not complain about this is imbalanced because I suck.
You are right. You are right 100%. And I even said this myself in the thread earlier. They can't and shouldn't balance for all levels of play. My point is that Master- protoss players should finally stop complaining about balance when their race is evidently the strongest at their level of play. You can hate on pro terrans all you want, but this hate towards master- terrans has to stop, it's irrational since terran already is underrepresented in Masters League (and in the lower leagues down to silver) and have the least average points. protoss player or even zerg players at that level of play have absolutely no right to complain about terran. pro imbalance doesn't affect them at all. We are the one's struggling at master, they are not.
That is my point. We terrans hardly ever complain even though we are the one's struggling on the ladder, all you ever hear is protoss (and some zergs) bitching and moaning about balance all over the place and like I said, it is irrational.
And Zenith you keep ignoring the avg. points that says alot more than even win rate, because avg points are partially influenced by opponent skill, so if terran have the least points even though they have a similar (altough slightly worse) win ratio it means that the system matches them with worse players to maintain this 50% win ratio. Blizzard admitted that the system works like this, so whilst protoss and zerg get to beat better players, terran is struggling with supposedly worse players so that the system can mantain a 50% win ratio. Average points prove that.
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On November 07 2011 10:01 K3Nyy wrote:Show nested quote +On November 07 2011 09:45 doko100 wrote:On November 07 2011 09:42 Silidons wrote:On November 07 2011 09:36 doko100 wrote:On November 07 2011 09:33 Maxhster wrote:
doko which ladder stats are you refferring to? do you have a link to those? sc2ranks Terran has by far the least players in masters (and diamond... and platinum.... and gold... and also grandmaster), least average points and protoss on the other hand is the complete opposite. If you want to complain about protoss, then look at the stats at your level of play. I'm fairly confident that none of you are pro players and terrans are actually the ones struggling on the ladder, so the question is... who should be complaining? We terrans are not really, but should the protoss players be complaining unless they are pros? No, it's irrational. HAHAHAH so you're not comparing stats like win rates but only how many players are in what league. that is comical my friend, comical. please do continue as you seem to be a genius. They are the most underrepresented race in the higher league with the least average points..really comical isn't it? Obviously their win rates have to be worse for there to be less terrans in the higher leagues compared to P and Z players when they are the most played race in the lower leagues, only logical explanation, or terrans are just worse and can't get out of silver league or they lose games on purpose. the fact is that terran is simply harder to play at master/diamond level, because people are not quite good enough to abuse the micro and multitasking, it's even worse in gold and platinum, you can see the numbers declining. but yes, you are right quite comical. No offense, but I fail to see how balancing the game around bad players works. They are at that level because they can multitask, macro, micro etc etc. For example, if a diamond lose all his marines to mass blings, blings must be OP to that diamond player. If blizzard address this and nerfs them, then MVP, Bomber, MKP and all those pro players would never lose his marines to blings and would so imbalanced at the pro level. You can't and shouldn't balance at the lower levels. There's a reason why they're there and they should hope to get better, not complain about this is imbalanced because I suck.
It's not that we should balance around those numbers, but that we should pay attention to them in such an ambitious and young game. It doesn't help the scene if 90% of your players are cheering against 1/3 of your pros. There is also possibility that those lower level games highlight fundamental problems with races that require larger tweaks to balance overall.
For example, let's say that race A is having trouble beating race B at the pro level. However, race B has a ton of trouble against race A at every other level of play. In this situation, if Blizzard was to tweak race A, they should be inclined to pick a change that would ONLY matter at the highest level. Likewise, if B suddenly had trouble at ALL levels, something fundamental could be changed about either of the races to bring overall balance in line.
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On November 07 2011 09:59 doko100 wrote:Show nested quote +On November 07 2011 09:57 althaz wrote:On November 07 2011 09:45 doko100 wrote:On November 07 2011 09:42 Silidons wrote:On November 07 2011 09:36 doko100 wrote:On November 07 2011 09:33 Maxhster wrote:
doko which ladder stats are you refferring to? do you have a link to those? sc2ranks Terran has by far the least players in masters (and diamond... and platinum.... and gold... and also grandmaster), least average points and protoss on the other hand is the complete opposite. If you want to complain about protoss, then look at the stats at your level of play. I'm fairly confident that none of you are pro players and terrans are actually the ones struggling on the ladder, so the question is... who should be complaining? We terrans are not really, but should the protoss players be complaining unless they are pros? No, it's irrational. HAHAHAH so you're not comparing stats like win rates but only how many players are in what league. that is comical my friend, comical. please do continue as you seem to be a genius. They are the most underrepresented race in the higher league with the least average points..really comical isn't it? Obviously their win rates have to be worse for there to be less terrans in the higher leagues compared to P and Z players when they are the most played race in the lower leagues, only logical explanation, or terrans are just worse and can't get out of silver league or they lose games on purpose. the fact is that terran is simply harder to play at master/diamond level, because people are not quite good enough to abuse the micro and multitasking, it's even worse in gold and platinum, you can see the numbers declining. but yes, you are right quite comical. FYI, even on Ladder Terran is favoured at Masters and above . It's a pretty slight advantage (except in Korean TvP where there's a pretty big discrepancy). That makes sense, since they have the lowest win ratio they must obviously be favored. Where do you people get your informations from? I get the feeling you are all making this up.
They actually have the highest win % in GM. trolol?
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On November 07 2011 10:14 Silidons wrote:Show nested quote +On November 07 2011 09:59 doko100 wrote:On November 07 2011 09:57 althaz wrote:On November 07 2011 09:45 doko100 wrote:On November 07 2011 09:42 Silidons wrote:On November 07 2011 09:36 doko100 wrote:On November 07 2011 09:33 Maxhster wrote:
doko which ladder stats are you refferring to? do you have a link to those? sc2ranks Terran has by far the least players in masters (and diamond... and platinum.... and gold... and also grandmaster), least average points and protoss on the other hand is the complete opposite. If you want to complain about protoss, then look at the stats at your level of play. I'm fairly confident that none of you are pro players and terrans are actually the ones struggling on the ladder, so the question is... who should be complaining? We terrans are not really, but should the protoss players be complaining unless they are pros? No, it's irrational. HAHAHAH so you're not comparing stats like win rates but only how many players are in what league. that is comical my friend, comical. please do continue as you seem to be a genius. They are the most underrepresented race in the higher league with the least average points..really comical isn't it? Obviously their win rates have to be worse for there to be less terrans in the higher leagues compared to P and Z players when they are the most played race in the lower leagues, only logical explanation, or terrans are just worse and can't get out of silver league or they lose games on purpose. the fact is that terran is simply harder to play at master/diamond level, because people are not quite good enough to abuse the micro and multitasking, it's even worse in gold and platinum, you can see the numbers declining. but yes, you are right quite comical. FYI, even on Ladder Terran is favoured at Masters and above . It's a pretty slight advantage (except in Korean TvP where there's a pretty big discrepancy). That makes sense, since they have the lowest win ratio they must obviously be favored. Where do you people get your informations from? I get the feeling you are all making this up. They actually have the highest win % in GM. trolol?
Yet again, I never said that terran are weak at the highest level of play. That is not my argument. The point is that masters and below protoss has no right to complain, terran should be complaining but gladly we barely ever do (and it would be pointless because it all comes down to skill in the end), but the point still is that it is nonsensical for all the lower league (and im including masters) protoss players to complain so much when they seem to be doing more than fine on the ladder. It is irrational.
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On November 07 2011 10:17 doko100 wrote:Show nested quote +On November 07 2011 10:14 Silidons wrote:On November 07 2011 09:59 doko100 wrote:On November 07 2011 09:57 althaz wrote:On November 07 2011 09:45 doko100 wrote:On November 07 2011 09:42 Silidons wrote:On November 07 2011 09:36 doko100 wrote:On November 07 2011 09:33 Maxhster wrote:
doko which ladder stats are you refferring to? do you have a link to those? sc2ranks Terran has by far the least players in masters (and diamond... and platinum.... and gold... and also grandmaster), least average points and protoss on the other hand is the complete opposite. If you want to complain about protoss, then look at the stats at your level of play. I'm fairly confident that none of you are pro players and terrans are actually the ones struggling on the ladder, so the question is... who should be complaining? We terrans are not really, but should the protoss players be complaining unless they are pros? No, it's irrational. HAHAHAH so you're not comparing stats like win rates but only how many players are in what league. that is comical my friend, comical. please do continue as you seem to be a genius. They are the most underrepresented race in the higher league with the least average points..really comical isn't it? Obviously their win rates have to be worse for there to be less terrans in the higher leagues compared to P and Z players when they are the most played race in the lower leagues, only logical explanation, or terrans are just worse and can't get out of silver league or they lose games on purpose. the fact is that terran is simply harder to play at master/diamond level, because people are not quite good enough to abuse the micro and multitasking, it's even worse in gold and platinum, you can see the numbers declining. but yes, you are right quite comical. FYI, even on Ladder Terran is favoured at Masters and above . It's a pretty slight advantage (except in Korean TvP where there's a pretty big discrepancy). That makes sense, since they have the lowest win ratio they must obviously be favored. Where do you people get your informations from? I get the feeling you are all making this up. They actually have the highest win % in GM. trolol? Yet again, I never said that terran are weak at the highest level of play. That is not my argument. The point is that masters and below protoss has no right to complain, terran should be complaining but gladly we barely ever do (and it would be pointless because it all comes down to skill in the end), but the point still is that it is nonsensical for all the lower league (and im including masters) protoss players to complain so much when they seem to be doing more than fine on the ladder. It is irrational.
I'm sorry, I still don't understand. Why would master terrans complain? Because they are 3% less than Protoss? You want to play more TvT, is that it?
At least state your opinion clearly. You sound like you think Protoss is overpowered or something. You certainly have the right to say so...
And us to laugh about it.
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On November 07 2011 10:21 ZenithM wrote:Show nested quote +On November 07 2011 10:17 doko100 wrote:On November 07 2011 10:14 Silidons wrote:On November 07 2011 09:59 doko100 wrote:On November 07 2011 09:57 althaz wrote:On November 07 2011 09:45 doko100 wrote:On November 07 2011 09:42 Silidons wrote:On November 07 2011 09:36 doko100 wrote:On November 07 2011 09:33 Maxhster wrote:
doko which ladder stats are you refferring to? do you have a link to those? sc2ranks Terran has by far the least players in masters (and diamond... and platinum.... and gold... and also grandmaster), least average points and protoss on the other hand is the complete opposite. If you want to complain about protoss, then look at the stats at your level of play. I'm fairly confident that none of you are pro players and terrans are actually the ones struggling on the ladder, so the question is... who should be complaining? We terrans are not really, but should the protoss players be complaining unless they are pros? No, it's irrational. HAHAHAH so you're not comparing stats like win rates but only how many players are in what league. that is comical my friend, comical. please do continue as you seem to be a genius. They are the most underrepresented race in the higher league with the least average points..really comical isn't it? Obviously their win rates have to be worse for there to be less terrans in the higher leagues compared to P and Z players when they are the most played race in the lower leagues, only logical explanation, or terrans are just worse and can't get out of silver league or they lose games on purpose. the fact is that terran is simply harder to play at master/diamond level, because people are not quite good enough to abuse the micro and multitasking, it's even worse in gold and platinum, you can see the numbers declining. but yes, you are right quite comical. FYI, even on Ladder Terran is favoured at Masters and above . It's a pretty slight advantage (except in Korean TvP where there's a pretty big discrepancy). That makes sense, since they have the lowest win ratio they must obviously be favored. Where do you people get your informations from? I get the feeling you are all making this up. They actually have the highest win % in GM. trolol? Yet again, I never said that terran are weak at the highest level of play. That is not my argument. The point is that masters and below protoss has no right to complain, terran should be complaining but gladly we barely ever do (and it would be pointless because it all comes down to skill in the end), but the point still is that it is nonsensical for all the lower league (and im including masters) protoss players to complain so much when they seem to be doing more than fine on the ladder. It is irrational. I'm sorry, I still don't understand. Why would master terrans complain? Because they are 3% less than Protoss? You want to play more TvT, is that it? At least state your opinion clearly. You sound like you think Protoss is overpowered or something. You certainly have the right to say so... And us to laugh about it.
I don't know if you are just ignorant or if you don't want to understand what I'm saying. I never said Protoss is overpowered, I only ever said that Protoss is doing more than fine on the ladder, win rates and avg. points prove that, so there is no reason for protoss players to complain. You can keep being ignorant but my argument in no way is that protoss is overpowered and I explicitly even said that.
edit: And I don't mean this in an offensive way now so don't get me wrong, but do you not understand my post due to a language barrier with you being french and all or does it seem absurd from a logical point of view? Because there is nothing I can do about a language barrier but I could try to explain my point to you (again) if you want.
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Clearly we must revert to Oct 2010! Unpatch all the things Blizzard!
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On November 07 2011 10:08 doko100 wrote:Show nested quote +On November 07 2011 10:01 K3Nyy wrote:On November 07 2011 09:45 doko100 wrote:On November 07 2011 09:42 Silidons wrote:On November 07 2011 09:36 doko100 wrote:On November 07 2011 09:33 Maxhster wrote:
doko which ladder stats are you refferring to? do you have a link to those? sc2ranks Terran has by far the least players in masters (and diamond... and platinum.... and gold... and also grandmaster), least average points and protoss on the other hand is the complete opposite. If you want to complain about protoss, then look at the stats at your level of play. I'm fairly confident that none of you are pro players and terrans are actually the ones struggling on the ladder, so the question is... who should be complaining? We terrans are not really, but should the protoss players be complaining unless they are pros? No, it's irrational. HAHAHAH so you're not comparing stats like win rates but only how many players are in what league. that is comical my friend, comical. please do continue as you seem to be a genius. They are the most underrepresented race in the higher league with the least average points..really comical isn't it? Obviously their win rates have to be worse for there to be less terrans in the higher leagues compared to P and Z players when they are the most played race in the lower leagues, only logical explanation, or terrans are just worse and can't get out of silver league or they lose games on purpose. the fact is that terran is simply harder to play at master/diamond level, because people are not quite good enough to abuse the micro and multitasking, it's even worse in gold and platinum, you can see the numbers declining. but yes, you are right quite comical. No offense, but I fail to see how balancing the game around bad players works. They are at that level because they can multitask, macro, micro etc etc. For example, if a diamond lose all his marines to mass blings, blings must be OP to that diamond player. If blizzard address this and nerfs them, then MVP, Bomber, MKP and all those pro players would never lose his marines to blings and would so imbalanced at the pro level. You can't and shouldn't balance at the lower levels. There's a reason why they're there and they should hope to get better, not complain about this is imbalanced because I suck. You are right. You are right 100%. And I even said this myself in the thread earlier. They can't and shouldn't balance for all levels of play. My point is that Master- protoss players should finally stop complaining about balance when their race is evidently the strongest at their level of play. You can hate on pro terrans all you want, but this hate towards master- terrans has to stop, it's irrational since terran already is underrepresented in Masters League (and in the lower leagues down to silver) and have the least average points. protoss player or even zerg players at that level of play have absolutely no right to complain about terran. pro imbalance doesn't affect them at all. We are the one's struggling at master, they are not. That is my point. We terrans hardly ever complain even though we are the one's struggling on the ladder, all you ever hear is protoss (and some zergs) bitching and moaning about balance all over the place and like I said, it is irrational. And Zenith you keep ignoring the avg. points that says alot more than even win rate, because avg points are partially influenced by opponent skill, so if terran have the least points even though they have a similar (altough slightly worse) win ratio it means that the system matches them with worse players to maintain this 50% win ratio. Blizzard admitted that the system works like this, so whilst protoss and zerg get to beat better players, terran is struggling with supposedly worse players so that the system can mantain a 50% win ratio. Average points prove that.
This. It's pretty apparent that pro terrans are doing quite well, but in the high diamond/master level it feels like terran is having a much harder time. The game could be balanced at a pro level, but still be imbalanced at master level and that would be a problem. If you have to have marine king micro in order to win TvZ against a 1a opponent in masters that would be a problem. My personal experience on the ladder has been that terran is punished much more heavily for micro mistakes than the other races. I feel like all the cheesy terrans is all that's keeping our win rate up. Late game terran I find myself trading armies, usually with a small portion left over, but then protoss insta warps 30 zealots into my production line and I lose.
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On November 07 2011 10:23 doko100 wrote:Show nested quote +On November 07 2011 10:21 ZenithM wrote:On November 07 2011 10:17 doko100 wrote:On November 07 2011 10:14 Silidons wrote:On November 07 2011 09:59 doko100 wrote:On November 07 2011 09:57 althaz wrote:On November 07 2011 09:45 doko100 wrote:On November 07 2011 09:42 Silidons wrote:On November 07 2011 09:36 doko100 wrote:On November 07 2011 09:33 Maxhster wrote:
doko which ladder stats are you refferring to? do you have a link to those? sc2ranks Terran has by far the least players in masters (and diamond... and platinum.... and gold... and also grandmaster), least average points and protoss on the other hand is the complete opposite. If you want to complain about protoss, then look at the stats at your level of play. I'm fairly confident that none of you are pro players and terrans are actually the ones struggling on the ladder, so the question is... who should be complaining? We terrans are not really, but should the protoss players be complaining unless they are pros? No, it's irrational. HAHAHAH so you're not comparing stats like win rates but only how many players are in what league. that is comical my friend, comical. please do continue as you seem to be a genius. They are the most underrepresented race in the higher league with the least average points..really comical isn't it? Obviously their win rates have to be worse for there to be less terrans in the higher leagues compared to P and Z players when they are the most played race in the lower leagues, only logical explanation, or terrans are just worse and can't get out of silver league or they lose games on purpose. the fact is that terran is simply harder to play at master/diamond level, because people are not quite good enough to abuse the micro and multitasking, it's even worse in gold and platinum, you can see the numbers declining. but yes, you are right quite comical. FYI, even on Ladder Terran is favoured at Masters and above . It's a pretty slight advantage (except in Korean TvP where there's a pretty big discrepancy). That makes sense, since they have the lowest win ratio they must obviously be favored. Where do you people get your informations from? I get the feeling you are all making this up. They actually have the highest win % in GM. trolol? Yet again, I never said that terran are weak at the highest level of play. That is not my argument. The point is that masters and below protoss has no right to complain, terran should be complaining but gladly we barely ever do (and it would be pointless because it all comes down to skill in the end), but the point still is that it is nonsensical for all the lower league (and im including masters) protoss players to complain so much when they seem to be doing more than fine on the ladder. It is irrational. I'm sorry, I still don't understand. Why would master terrans complain? Because they are 3% less than Protoss? You want to play more TvT, is that it? At least state your opinion clearly. You sound like you think Protoss is overpowered or something. You certainly have the right to say so... And us to laugh about it. I don't know if you are just ignorant or if you don't want to understand what I'm saying. I never said Protoss is overpowered, I only ever said that Protoss is doing more than fine on the ladder, win rates and avg. points prove that, so there is no reason for protoss players to complain. You can keep being ignorant but my argument in no way is that protoss is overpowered and I explicitly even said that.
I still fail to see where your "more than fine" comes from. All I see is this:
Type Random Protoss Terran Zerg
Distribution 4.2% (896) 32.8% (6,939) 29.5% (6,227) 33.4% (7,066)
Average wins 49.0% (30,137) 50.8% (336,686) 50.7% (245,145) 51.0% (331,403)
Average points 124 210 192 208
As expected, 50% winrates all across the board, and 3% less Terrans (it's huge, I know, right?). It's Blizzard ladder system, it's just normal. Your winrate is 50%, mine is 50% too, regardless of our actual level, race, whatever.
Onto the points now. I don't think it holds any meaning. Just look at random players, they have way less points, duh. Still 50% winrate though. And you'll notice than Terran players play way less games on average than Zerg and especially Protoss. Why is that? Terran matchups are typically longer. Add to that bonus pool, it's quite possible that Protoss are able to empty their bonus pool faster than terran players. Can you decently draw any conclusion that Protoss is doing better than Terran in Masters with these stats?
I don't know what else I could say. You're looking at public ladder stats, and this ladder system is designed to have everyone at 50% win ratio at all time. What do you expect more?
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EPT
