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On November 07 2011 04:25 ZenithM wrote:
Looking balanced to me.
And even if it was not, there is not enough data to conclude anything.
And stats don't mean anything.
And you have to actually look at the gameplay and not the results to form an opinion on balance.
And Terran players are just better.
Edit: Oh yeah I forgot that one: The difference is actually not that huge guys! The scale of the Y-axis is exagerated!
this man deserves a medal!
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France12906 Posts
I don' understand the PvT winrates. TvP is almost unwinnable on ladder :/
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On November 07 2011 08:50 Firesilver wrote:Show nested quote +On November 07 2011 08:48 Blade Fox wrote:
It's obvious.
Patch 1.3
High Templar
Khaydarin Amulet upgrade (+25 starting energy) has been removed.
Thats when protoss started losing every matchup. No, it really wasn't, that needed to be removed because of how strong it was, it's stupid to blame the recent down slope of P win % on that alone.
"For several months" is not "recent", considering that the game is 1 year old. The second Protoss achieved a winrate above 50% against Terran, massive nerfs were made to fix that, and Protoss never came back. It's definitely not "recent".
Every month, everyone is like "Lol guys, calm down, Protoss players will figure out something ^_^", and despite more and more buffs, Protoss is getting more and more behind.
Design problem? Most likely.
And for those who complain about Protoss in their own ladder experience, you probably get cheesed/all inned a lot (that's ladder remember), and Protoss is able to pull out some nasty all ins indeed.
Now try like me to play macro every single game on ladder, and I'm not talking ultra fast greedy expands and shit, just standard builds, upgrades, third, slight harass and all. Protoss is hard to play this way. Zerg will always try to roach all in you, terran will do rax all ins, with or without SCVs, 111 and such.
The second I get pissed and try to 6 gate off of a 1 gate FE, the opponents just cannot stop it, and it's a free win. So yeah, easy Protoss builds exist, and I can understand why ladder Protosses would just chain those builds. At a very high level though, those builds have more chance to be stopped (as they should), and have been nerfed by Blizzard anyway, so Protoss loses his threatening all innish aspect.
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On November 07 2011 04:29 juicyjames wrote:Show nested quote +On November 07 2011 04:23 TerlocSG wrote:
The Y-axis kind of makes the graphs misleading. :/ It makes the difference in win % look a lot bigger than it really is. It's good information, and I'm not saying it isn't true, just making the view from 40 to 60% makes a 5% difference look huge. Finally someone else points this out! After learning about statistics I have begun to look at graphs and polls more carefully for this kind thing, and am very surprised at how misleading these can be due to the Y-axis alone.
for someone who studies statistics you should realize that the scaling doesn't fucking matter because it's still a downward trend.
tell me everyone, if this were 3 different stocks, which would you invest in?
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On November 07 2011 09:07 flowSthead wrote:Show nested quote +On November 07 2011 09:04 Pipeline wrote:
I feel like the author and maker of the graph have made a misleading y-axis on the graph on purpose. I was amazed at the beginning but I have a niggling feeling that the graph was left to look like this to make protoss look extra weak and I wonder why.
I know this have been said before but its worth saying again: Zerg was in a terrible position at the first quarter of this year but the players adapted and changed up their play, I dont think the balance patches made that big of a difference. Now on the other hand, I've been watching competative protoss players play the same way for months without much change in strategy or game play. A lot of 2 base and failed timing attacks... and it basically demonstrates what the graph is saying, it works 4/10 times.... I really think protoss needs some new blood to help them get out of the slump, I dont feel like there is a need for any balance changes atm (with the exception of mule cd) So the fungal growth change didn't make a huge difference? And the spore crawler change didn't help to stop banshee and void ray harass? Sure, there was definitely innovative Zerg play (hello baneling drops), but let's not forget that there were some key patches. And I definitely agree that innovative Protoss play is needed, but I imagine it will come after Protoss has also had some nice patches in their favor. Which one has more effect is as difficult to figure out as with Zergs.
I think the main reason they have been winning is that early 3rd base and then drone drone drone and make units when you see them coming. Before this, I have never seen a Zerg max at 13 mins.
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On November 07 2011 09:10 ZenithM wrote:Show nested quote +On November 07 2011 08:50 Firesilver wrote:On November 07 2011 08:48 Blade Fox wrote:
It's obvious.
Patch 1.3
High Templar
Khaydarin Amulet upgrade (+25 starting energy) has been removed.
Thats when protoss started losing every matchup. No, it really wasn't, that needed to be removed because of how strong it was, it's stupid to blame the recent down slope of P win % on that alone. "For several months" is not "recent", considering that the game is 1 year old. The second Protoss achieved a winrate above 50% against Terran, massive nerfs were made to fix that, and Protoss never came back. It's definitely not "recent". Every month, everyone is like "Lol guys, calm down, Protoss players will figure out something ^_^", and despite more and more buffs, Protoss is getting more and more behind. Design problem? Most likely. And for those who complain about Protoss in their own ladder experience, you probably get cheesed/all inned a lot (that's ladder remember), and Protoss is able to pull out some nasty all ins indeed. Now try like me to play macro every single game on ladder, and I'm not talking ultra fast greedy expands and shit, just standard builds, upgrades, third, slight harass and all. Protoss is hard to play this way. Zerg will always try to roach all in you, terran will do rax all ins, with or without SCVs, 111 and such. The second I get pissed and try to 6 gate off of a 1 gate FE, the opponents just cannot stop it, and it's a free win. So yeah, easy Protoss builds exist, and I can understand why ladder Protosses would just chain those builds. At a very high level though, those builds have more chance to be stopped (as they should), and have been nerfed by Blizzard anyway, so Protoss loses his threatening all innish aspect.
Nobody doubts that protoss is weak at pro level, but like you said protoss is such an effective ladder race it's frustrating to play against them for non pro players. this also reflects in the player numbers so please let's just not go through this "its only your personal experience" stuff again, pretty much everyone in M struggles against toss even diamond seems heavily P (and also Z) favored, it's not just the few of us. 
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why does the y axis start at 40%.. it defeats the whole purpose of having a bar graph
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On November 07 2011 09:07 Poopi wrote:
I don' understand the PvT winrates. TvP is almost unwinnable on ladder :/
Yeah your individual experience sure is evidence! Maybe you have a weak matchup? Here, I'll counter: I once lost a PvP to a mid-master player, swapped to T, and beat him with my offrace. Clearly P sucks and T ownz!
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On November 07 2011 08:35 flowSthead wrote:Show nested quote +On November 07 2011 08:32 kofman wrote:On November 07 2011 08:20 flowSthead wrote:On November 07 2011 08:13 kofman wrote:On November 07 2011 08:06 flowSthead wrote:On November 07 2011 07:59 doko100 wrote:On November 07 2011 07:43 Elthreann wrote:On November 07 2011 07:27 kofman wrote:On November 07 2011 04:29 SeaSwift wrote:On November 07 2011 04:25 ZenithM wrote:
Looking balanced to me.
And even if it was not, there is not enough data to conclude anything.
And stats don't mean anything.
And you have to actually look at the gameplay and not the results to form an opinion on balance.
And Terran players are just better. Hahaha, I love the dry wit here on TL. Now that's all the Terran players' arguments out the way (y'know, the ones that have been raised every statistics thread since about March), now we can have a good moan about Protoss. I think that it's fairly obvious here that ZvT is Terran favoured, and the only reason why Zerg is looking okay is because ZvP is Zerg favoured, Protoss being the bottom of the heap as expected. I just hope these statistics quell any notions about balance raised by the MLG Orlando PvP finals. EDIT: On November 07 2011 04:27 DTK920 wrote:
A lot of protoss players have been complaining about losing to terran lately, but this graph clearly shows that ZvP is even worse. Don't know why all the hate is focused on terrans when zergs are clearly ahead. For a few reasons: 1) PvT has been Terran favoured since release, which indicates it is not a problem with innovation. 2) There is a new wave of PvZ coming in, led by HerO, JYP et al, which could solve the problem, whereas PvT looks pretty stagnant 3) There are few successful Zergs in GSL etc either, so although ZvP looks more imbalanced that might be because there are now Terrans in Code S who don't deserve to be there making the winrate look more even 4) ZvT looks imbalanced in favour of Terran as well, so Z and P can rally against T together. Lol, ZvT is the most balanced MU in the game! It's funny how zergs just have to find something to whine about. IMO the Terran imbalance mostly comes from: a) the variety of strats Terran can do while hiding it, because they can deny scouting, building an all-in or expanding. I still find Terran all-ins are the hardest to deal with because you hardly know they are coming b) Terran can easily scout for all-ins and have the best "generic opening" IMO. I find the 1 rax FE is not only very good economic opening, but can defend against anything with help of the scan as scout. So IMO Terran just have the advantage of in-base expand therefore hiding their strat, and always are able to scout, therefore can defend the incoming all in Anyone agree? No terran really uses scans early game. It doesn't help you in scouting all-ins really, if the P or Z simply hide units or proxy their buildings congratulations you just wasted 240 minerals on nothing. not even pro terrans scan early game, first scans are mainly early midgame or late-earlgame, because it's so hard to scout proxy gates and zerg all in is very hard to scout aswell because they can mass units so quickly, if a zerg decides to 2 base all-in there is very little you can do to scout that, in fact I think it's definitely easier to scout for protoss vs midgame zerg than it is for T, T has to hope for a "money" scan, you have to be very lucky with scans, you don't know where your opponent builds his stuff so once you have scanned you are completely in the dark again, unlike protoss who can use observers to constantly scout the opponent, altough they have to be very careful. I still think that more protoss players should proxy gateways anywhere on the map, like on taldarim in some corner on the outside bases, it makes it pretty much impossible for the terran to scout and gives him no information when he scans, theres no reason not to, the chances to lose them are less than 0,1% and the benefit is denying information which is crucial in sc2., also protoss players should start to build their tech buildings at different spots in their base, most P players have a base layout so that you can scan everything with 1 scan, you can maximize this to at least 2 scans on some maps even 3. but right now P players dont really think about this too much, they make it kind of easy for the terrans to scout their tech with just 1 scan Or Terrans can use their super fast hellions to scout like they have been doing the past few months. I haven't seen many Terrans surprised by an all-in since hellions became more popular. You get to scout and do damage! Neat! And the reason most Protoss players have a base layout close to their Nexus is because Terran drops are so harsh to Protoss buildings and because Protoss is the only race that can have its buildings unpowered. Too many times important tech has been lost or an important upgrade to a drop, so Protoss players have adapted by making it easier to defend. I find it hilarious how you think you know more than Protoss pros and they need you to tell them to space out their buildings because it takes more scans. As if they hadn't thought of it and perhaps had better reasons for not doing it. Great job. You should be a coach. On November 07 2011 07:55 flowSthead wrote:On November 07 2011 07:31 kofman wrote:On November 07 2011 06:44 flowSthead wrote:On November 07 2011 06:31 doko100 wrote:
[quote]
Well I'm sorry, but recently every protoss player is just whining. In every single thread no matter if it's LR or whatever protoss players cry, it's even worse than Zerg in '10. Yes I'm getting quite annoyed by protoss players recently and so do a lot of other people in this community, you spread so much hate, you flame us on the ladder and complain all the time about everything. Sometimes I wish blizzard would just remove protoss from the game so that we can get rid of you balance whiners.
Dude, that goes both ways. Maybe Protoss payers are sick and tired of being told they are just worse than their Terran/Zerg counterparts. I'm not in favor of balance whining either, but you do not just reply to balance whining. You are also replying poorly to legitimate balance ideas/complaints. It's one thing to decry the flamers and trolls, and another thing to decry the entire Protoss race. Just look at what you wrote and think about your own bias for a second. There is no way to decry just the flamers and balance whiners, without also decrying the entire Protoss race, because all protosses on TL are whiners. Just look at the graphic thats on the front of every GSL featured writeup. Seriously? How does this not get at least a warning? because it's true, what are you on about? this isn't nazi germany lol No, it isn't true. Not all Protoss are going around complaining, it is a vocal minority, or at most a vocal plurality. At the very least, it isn't "the entire Protoss race", that is just a hasty generalization and poor logic. That is also why I asked for a warning because it is not helping the discussion by having people like you going around saying the entire Protoss race is whining. It's not constructive. What are you talking about? The roach expand build is very difficult to scout as terran, and it basically hard counters the hellion expand if you don't get a fast tank or get a bunker. If you are letting hellions into your base that roast your drones and scout your entire base, your just bad. Its not because hellions are OP. It seems to me like you think you know everything. What a hypocrite. So, replying to my statement with a post asking for a warning is constructive, right? Plenty of very talented zergs lose drones to Hellions. And building a bunker as part of a hellion expand is just playing safe (See MVP vs AnNyeong in the WCG). I also never said hellions are OP. If you read what I wrote (critical reading is hard I know), then you would see that I responded that Terran can scout what the Zerg is doing relatively easily compared with Protoss due to their fast Hellions. It doesn't make the hellions OP. Quite the contrary. It makes the Terran race very stable, something which the Protoss race lacks. The only similar unit to the Hellion is the Phoenix, but a Phoenix is a much bigger investment than a Hellion. It is not quite comparable. And replying to your statement which is "the entire Protoss race is whiners" asking for a warning is constructive, yes. See, you are not contributing to the discussion, so therefore it would be constructive to get you to contribute with actual content rather than flame baiting. And no, I do not think I know everything. If you read my post history in the KA amulet thread, I actually ask a lot of questions and post what I "think" is the case. I then try to argue using logic and examples. I also welcome to be proven wrong, but so far doko here has only been posting about how much Protoss suck and how he knows better. I don't think that makes me a hypocrite. Please point out specific examples of where I am a hypocrite, and I would gladly concede. I hate making mistakes so I will do my best to not be a hypocrite. If terran has to blindly make a bunker every time they are going hellion expand, then that means hellions can't scout easily scout whatever zerg is doing. If I deserve a warning, then you deserve a warning to. Your post wasn't any more constructive than mine. Saying "I think" before your statements doesn't mean that you don't think your right. Well I wouldn't say if it I didn't think it was correct.... Also a bunker isn't a huge investment. You can sell it back for 75% of its cost, and it keeps you safe. How does that deter the Hellions from scouting anyway? I don't understand that. You are not blindly building a bunker. You are building a bunker because if the Zerg builds quick roaches, your Hellions will be weak to it, and so you need to keep your Marines alive long enough until you get a tank out or a banshee (depending on tech route). That is called thinking ahead, not playing blindly.
A bunker is quite an investment. It slows down your build a lot, and 75 minerals later on doesn't cover the cost well at all.
If you allow a terran to see a roach warren building without him using a scan, you are just plain bad. There is NO way a terran should be able to scout anything in the zerg's main, unless you have no simicity, no spines, and no zerglings. Because there is no way to scout the roach warren, the bunker needs to be built blind. Its not called "thinking ahead", its playing blind. Anyways, how would you know about TvZ if your protoss? Plz, stay away from topics you don't understand.
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On November 07 2011 09:04 Pipeline wrote:
I feel like the author and maker of the graph have made a misleading y-axis on the graph on purpose. I was amazed at the beginning but I have a niggling feeling that the graph was left to look like this to make protoss look extra weak and I wonder why.
I know this have been said before but its worth saying again: Zerg was in a terrible position at the first quarter of this year but the players adapted and changed up their play, I dont think the balance patches made that big of a difference. Now on the other hand, I've been watching competative protoss players play the same way for months without much change in strategy or game play. A lot of 2 base and failed timing attacks... and it basically demonstrates what the graph is saying, it works 4/10 times.... I really think protoss needs some new blood to help them get out of the slump, I dont feel like there is a need for any balance changes atm (with the exception of mule cd)
So in that case you wouldn't mind removing the fungal buff, increasing spore crawler burrow time, restoring warp gate research time and adding amulet, etc. since the balance changes "didn't make a big difference" and it was zerg players sheer genius and adaption that helped.
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On November 07 2011 09:07 Poopi wrote:
I don' understand the PvT winrates. TvP is almost unwinnable on ladder :/
Make ghosts.
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On November 07 2011 09:16 kazie wrote:
why does the y axis start at 40%.. it defeats the whole purpose of having a bar graph
It's for people who can look past the graph portion and see numbers. The graph is a visual aid, if it went from 0-100, You'd have 40% of the graph as white space, the trend line would be nearly straight, and visually doesn't help people understand. The whole point of cutting that out is for clarity. You don't need to know that ZvT has been above 30% for the entirity of the game, you don't need to know that Terran has won less than 70% in all matchups throughout the history of the game. It cuts down clutter, showcases what's important.
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ZvT doesn't feel Terran imbalanced. I mean Idra almost makes any Terran look easy.
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On November 07 2011 09:04 Pipeline wrote:
I feel like the author and maker of the graph have made a misleading y-axis on the graph on purpose. I was amazed at the beginning but I have a niggling feeling that the graph was left to look like this to make protoss look extra weak and I wonder why.
I know this have been said before but its worth saying again: Zerg was in a terrible position at the first quarter of this year but the players adapted and changed up their play, I dont think the balance patches made that big of a difference. Now on the other hand, I've been watching competative protoss players play the same way for months without much change in strategy or game play. A lot of 2 base and failed timing attacks... and it basically demonstrates what the graph is saying, it works 4/10 times.... I really think protoss needs some new blood to help them get out of the slump, I dont feel like there is a need for any balance changes atm (with the exception of mule cd)
Protoss has been innovating the most of any race. Look how the PvT macro game has evolved from fast colossus builds to forges and gateways, then to templar builds, then to chargelot archon, and recently to double forge builds. Meanwhile Terrans have been using the same TvP strategy since release and it's still viable: 1 rax FE into 3 rax, tech to reactor medivacs and +1, add 4th and 5th barracks while taking a third, armory and 2nd ebay, tech ghosts and add more barracks on 3 bases. Occasionally they get ghosts before medivacs. MC literally does a new opening in every PvZ played in a Korean tournament while Zergs are doing the same old fast 3rd base into mass roach 1a.
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On November 07 2011 09:16 Dfgj wrote:Show nested quote +On November 07 2011 09:07 Poopi wrote:
I don' understand the PvT winrates. TvP is almost unwinnable on ladder :/ Yeah your individual experience sure is evidence! Maybe you have a weak matchup? Here, I'll counter: I once lost a PvP to a mid-master player, swapped to T, and beat him with my offrace. Clearly P sucks and T ownz!
He's right though. It's not just personal experience, it's backed up by statistics aswell.
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On November 07 2011 09:16 Dfgj wrote:Show nested quote +On November 07 2011 09:07 Poopi wrote:
I don' understand the PvT winrates. TvP is almost unwinnable on ladder :/ Yeah your individual experience sure is evidence! Maybe you have a weak matchup? Here, I'll counter: I once lost a PvP to a mid-master player, swapped to T, and beat him with my offrace. Clearly P sucks and T ownz!
Except there are a lot of Terran players who have a very hard time with Protoss. If you look around on TL a bit, you'll see this is a common sentiment. Of course, you probably don't care about this point since it goes against your bias. Either way though, TvP has never really been the bane of Protoss anyways. PvZ looks a lot more one sided, but all we hear is T should be nerfed...
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On November 07 2011 09:22 aksfjh wrote:Show nested quote +On November 07 2011 09:16 Dfgj wrote:On November 07 2011 09:07 Poopi wrote:
I don' understand the PvT winrates. TvP is almost unwinnable on ladder :/ Yeah your individual experience sure is evidence! Maybe you have a weak matchup? Here, I'll counter: I once lost a PvP to a mid-master player, swapped to T, and beat him with my offrace. Clearly P sucks and T ownz! Except there are a lot of Terran players who have a very hard time with Protoss. If you look around on TL a bit, you'll see this is a common sentiment. Of course, you probably don't care about this point since it goes against your bias. Either way though, TvP has never really been the bane of Protoss anyways. PvZ looks a lot more one sided, but all we hear is T should be nerfed...
It's probably because we are used to getting nerfed and we never really complain lol.
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On November 07 2011 09:21 iamke55 wrote:Show nested quote +On November 07 2011 09:04 Pipeline wrote:
I feel like the author and maker of the graph have made a misleading y-axis on the graph on purpose. I was amazed at the beginning but I have a niggling feeling that the graph was left to look like this to make protoss look extra weak and I wonder why.
I know this have been said before but its worth saying again: Zerg was in a terrible position at the first quarter of this year but the players adapted and changed up their play, I dont think the balance patches made that big of a difference. Now on the other hand, I've been watching competative protoss players play the same way for months without much change in strategy or game play. A lot of 2 base and failed timing attacks... and it basically demonstrates what the graph is saying, it works 4/10 times.... I really think protoss needs some new blood to help them get out of the slump, I dont feel like there is a need for any balance changes atm (with the exception of mule cd) Protoss has been innovating the most of any race. Look how the PvT macro game has evolved from fast colossus builds to forges and gateways, then to templar builds, then to chargelot archon, and recently to double forge builds. Meanwhile Terrans have been using the same TvP strategy since release and it's still viable: 1 rax FE into 3 rax, tech to reactor medivacs and +1, add 4th and 5th barracks while taking a third, armory and 2nd ebay, tech ghosts and add more barracks on 3 bases. Occasionally they get ghosts before medivacs. MC literally does a new opening in every PvZ played in a Korean tournament while Zergs are doing the same old fast 3rd base into mass roach 1a.
Thank you. It's so irritating when people say protoss players haven't innovated. I mean seriously, do you know how many different builds MC uses/created? He's arguably the most innovative player in sc2 so far and he's Protoss, and like you said PvT has evolved constantly.
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On November 07 2011 09:22 aksfjh wrote:Show nested quote +On November 07 2011 09:16 Dfgj wrote:On November 07 2011 09:07 Poopi wrote:
I don' understand the PvT winrates. TvP is almost unwinnable on ladder :/ Yeah your individual experience sure is evidence! Maybe you have a weak matchup? Here, I'll counter: I once lost a PvP to a mid-master player, swapped to T, and beat him with my offrace. Clearly P sucks and T ownz! Except there are a lot of Terran players who have a very hard time with Protoss. If you look around on TL a bit, you'll see this is a common sentiment. Of course, you probably don't care about this point since it goes against your bias. Either way though, TvP has never really been the bane of Protoss anyways. PvZ looks a lot more one sided, but all we hear is T should be nerfed...
I'm sure the silver and platinum terrans that have a hard time against a given race is good indicator of what imbalances are when comparing to professional players who do this for their job.
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All that these graphs do is make me depressed because I cant beat protoss to save my life :S
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EPT
