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On November 07 2011 08:24 flowSthead wrote:Show nested quote +On November 07 2011 08:15 doko100 wrote:On November 07 2011 08:06 flowSthead wrote:On November 07 2011 07:59 doko100 wrote:On November 07 2011 07:43 Elthreann wrote:On November 07 2011 07:27 kofman wrote:On November 07 2011 04:29 SeaSwift wrote:On November 07 2011 04:25 ZenithM wrote:
Looking balanced to me.
And even if it was not, there is not enough data to conclude anything.
And stats don't mean anything.
And you have to actually look at the gameplay and not the results to form an opinion on balance.
And Terran players are just better. Hahaha, I love the dry wit here on TL. Now that's all the Terran players' arguments out the way (y'know, the ones that have been raised every statistics thread since about March), now we can have a good moan about Protoss. I think that it's fairly obvious here that ZvT is Terran favoured, and the only reason why Zerg is looking okay is because ZvP is Zerg favoured, Protoss being the bottom of the heap as expected. I just hope these statistics quell any notions about balance raised by the MLG Orlando PvP finals. EDIT: On November 07 2011 04:27 DTK920 wrote:
A lot of protoss players have been complaining about losing to terran lately, but this graph clearly shows that ZvP is even worse. Don't know why all the hate is focused on terrans when zergs are clearly ahead. For a few reasons: 1) PvT has been Terran favoured since release, which indicates it is not a problem with innovation. 2) There is a new wave of PvZ coming in, led by HerO, JYP et al, which could solve the problem, whereas PvT looks pretty stagnant 3) There are few successful Zergs in GSL etc either, so although ZvP looks more imbalanced that might be because there are now Terrans in Code S who don't deserve to be there making the winrate look more even 4) ZvT looks imbalanced in favour of Terran as well, so Z and P can rally against T together. Lol, ZvT is the most balanced MU in the game! It's funny how zergs just have to find something to whine about. IMO the Terran imbalance mostly comes from: a) the variety of strats Terran can do while hiding it, because they can deny scouting, building an all-in or expanding. I still find Terran all-ins are the hardest to deal with because you hardly know they are coming b) Terran can easily scout for all-ins and have the best "generic opening" IMO. I find the 1 rax FE is not only very good economic opening, but can defend against anything with help of the scan as scout. So IMO Terran just have the advantage of in-base expand therefore hiding their strat, and always are able to scout, therefore can defend the incoming all in Anyone agree? No terran really uses scans early game. It doesn't help you in scouting all-ins really, if the P or Z simply hide units or proxy their buildings congratulations you just wasted 240 minerals on nothing. not even pro terrans scan early game, first scans are mainly early midgame or late-earlgame, because it's so hard to scout proxy gates and zerg all in is very hard to scout aswell because they can mass units so quickly, if a zerg decides to 2 base all-in there is very little you can do to scout that, in fact I think it's definitely easier to scout for protoss vs midgame zerg than it is for T, T has to hope for a "money" scan, you have to be very lucky with scans, you don't know where your opponent builds his stuff so once you have scanned you are completely in the dark again, unlike protoss who can use observers to constantly scout the opponent, altough they have to be very careful. I still think that more protoss players should proxy gateways anywhere on the map, like on taldarim in some corner on the outside bases, it makes it pretty much impossible for the terran to scout and gives him no information when he scans, theres no reason not to, the chances to lose them are less than 0,1% and the benefit is denying information which is crucial in sc2., also protoss players should start to build their tech buildings at different spots in their base, most P players have a base layout so that you can scan everything with 1 scan, you can maximize this to at least 2 scans on some maps even 3. but right now P players dont really think about this too much, they make it kind of easy for the terrans to scout their tech with just 1 scan Or Terrans can use their super fast hellions to scout like they have been doing the past few months. I haven't seen many Terrans surprised by an all-in since hellions became more popular. You get to scout and do damage! Neat! And the reason most Protoss players have a base layout close to their Nexus is because Terran drops are so harsh to Protoss buildings and because Protoss is the only race that can have its buildings unpowered. Too many times important tech has been lost or an important upgrade to a drop, so Protoss players have adapted by making it easier to defend. I find it hilarious how you think you know more than Protoss pros and they need you to tell them to space out their buildings because it takes more scans. As if they hadn't thought of it and perhaps had better reasons for not doing it. Great job. You should be a coach. Hellion openings require fast factory tech, you mostly play this in conjunction with the 1/1/1 build or a banshee build. if you use early hellions you can't use 1rax fe or 2 rax fe and if the protoss goes nexus first... well you are in trouble, or even if he 1 gate expands and then goes for robo, I don't see much you can do then. And the risk of a drop is there, so you obviously can't have everything spread out.... but you can build the twilight council behind your mineral line or the templar archives, it makes it harder for the terran to scan and you can't really tell me that base layouts are optimized at this point in time, there are a lot of small things T and P players can improve on in that regard, even pro players. On November 07 2011 07:55 flowSthead wrote:On November 07 2011 07:31 kofman wrote:On November 07 2011 06:44 flowSthead wrote:On November 07 2011 06:31 doko100 wrote:On November 07 2011 06:25 SeaSwift wrote:On November 07 2011 06:19 Logros wrote:
Ah so this is why Terran has been 5% higher in winrate on average the last 12 months. You solved the problem I would message Blizzard asap! I wouldn't bother replying to him. His post history says everything you need to know, ranging from "protoss players are just being retards as usual" ( here) to "protoss players...... /facepalm" ( here). He clearly either wants attention or is just heavily biased and doesn't want his race to look biased. Not to mention that what he wrote most recently is just plain wrong - if you flip a coin 1000 times and it lands on it's head 1000/1000 of those times, there is a (1/2)^1000 chance of that happening. Sure, it is chance, but they possibility is so small it is far more likely to be weighted. This is why statistics are used. Well I'm sorry, but recently every protoss player is just whining. In every single thread no matter if it's LR or whatever protoss players cry, it's even worse than Zerg in '10. Yes I'm getting quite annoyed by protoss players recently and so do a lot of other people in this community, you spread so much hate, you flame us on the ladder and complain all the time about everything. Sometimes I wish blizzard would just remove protoss from the game so that we can get rid of you balance whiners. Dude, that goes both ways. Maybe Protoss payers are sick and tired of being told they are just worse than their Terran/Zerg counterparts. I'm not in favor of balance whining either, but you do not just reply to balance whining. You are also replying poorly to legitimate balance ideas/complaints. It's one thing to decry the flamers and trolls, and another thing to decry the entire Protoss race. Just look at what you wrote and think about your own bias for a second. There is no way to decry just the flamers and balance whiners, without also decrying the entire Protoss race, because all protosses on TL are whiners. Just look at the graphic thats on the front of every GSL featured writeup. Seriously? How does this not get at least a warning? because it's true, what are you on about? this isn't nazi germany lol No, it isn't true. Not all Protoss are going around complaining, it is a vocal minority, or at most a vocal plurality. At the very least, it isn't "the entire Protoss race", that is just a hasty generalization and poor logic. That is also why I asked for a warning because it is not helping the discussion by having people like you going around saying the entire Protoss race is whining. It's not constructive. Well, I'm sorry, but there is so much protoss whine, even you are whining to some extent, you think protoss is the weakest race, fine no problem. but you base this on stats based on the highest level of play and make it sound like it affects your level of play aswell and so do most protoss players, they blame imbalance, flame T and Z players on the ladder and are getting really annoying recently, I didn't make the experience that it's only a handful of protoss player. I get flamed pretty much every second game against P or they just dont GG anymore, hardly ever do I get a protoss player that GGs or doesn't flame me and some other Z and Ts I've been talking to made the same experience, it's pathetic to think that protoss is weak on the ladder, they are the most succesful ladder race for quite some time now, with the most players in GM and M and most average points, there is NO NEED for non pro toss players to complain, it's irrational. I never said Protoss is the weakest race. Protoss has some of the strongest all ins in the games, some of the best timings, and some of the best cheeses. I think that is the reason that these winrates are not worse. I think Protoss is the weakest macro race, definitely, which is my problem with the way it is currently balanced. I also want to watch great games from equally skilled players where both players go macro games. You are right, it doesn't affect me and I never said it did in my play. But it does affect my viewing experience of the game since I watch the pros play. I want more Protoss macro games, and it is difficult to see because of the way the race is designed.
Yes but this is the essential problem and you are 100% right. It's race design. Protoss is the best ladder race, to a point where some master terran (myself included) hate the matchup really, this is reflected by statistics. But it's possibly also the worst race in pro play. And yes you should balance the game around pro play, I agree, BUT you also need to keep an eye on casual play (everything below GM), in a well designed game, all races would be equally strong at all levels of play, but that is simply not the case. So if protoss gets buffed alot more yes it might help or will help pro-play, but at the same time you have to consider that protoss already is the strongest ladder race even in GM and M, so if they buff protoss even more they run risk that more and more zerg and especially terran players quite the game or simply switch to toss and that is not in the interest of blizzard.
terran is already the least played race in GM and M by miles, it's not even close, and yes the game should be balanced around the very top level, but I dont think it's that easy blizzard wants equal race distribution but that already isn't the case with protoss dominating the ladder, so what can they do? I'm not sure.
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On November 07 2011 08:20 flowSthead wrote:Show nested quote +On November 07 2011 08:13 kofman wrote:On November 07 2011 08:06 flowSthead wrote:On November 07 2011 07:59 doko100 wrote:On November 07 2011 07:43 Elthreann wrote:On November 07 2011 07:27 kofman wrote:On November 07 2011 04:29 SeaSwift wrote:On November 07 2011 04:25 ZenithM wrote:
Looking balanced to me.
And even if it was not, there is not enough data to conclude anything.
And stats don't mean anything.
And you have to actually look at the gameplay and not the results to form an opinion on balance.
And Terran players are just better. Hahaha, I love the dry wit here on TL. Now that's all the Terran players' arguments out the way (y'know, the ones that have been raised every statistics thread since about March), now we can have a good moan about Protoss. I think that it's fairly obvious here that ZvT is Terran favoured, and the only reason why Zerg is looking okay is because ZvP is Zerg favoured, Protoss being the bottom of the heap as expected. I just hope these statistics quell any notions about balance raised by the MLG Orlando PvP finals. EDIT: On November 07 2011 04:27 DTK920 wrote:
A lot of protoss players have been complaining about losing to terran lately, but this graph clearly shows that ZvP is even worse. Don't know why all the hate is focused on terrans when zergs are clearly ahead. For a few reasons: 1) PvT has been Terran favoured since release, which indicates it is not a problem with innovation. 2) There is a new wave of PvZ coming in, led by HerO, JYP et al, which could solve the problem, whereas PvT looks pretty stagnant 3) There are few successful Zergs in GSL etc either, so although ZvP looks more imbalanced that might be because there are now Terrans in Code S who don't deserve to be there making the winrate look more even 4) ZvT looks imbalanced in favour of Terran as well, so Z and P can rally against T together. Lol, ZvT is the most balanced MU in the game! It's funny how zergs just have to find something to whine about. IMO the Terran imbalance mostly comes from: a) the variety of strats Terran can do while hiding it, because they can deny scouting, building an all-in or expanding. I still find Terran all-ins are the hardest to deal with because you hardly know they are coming b) Terran can easily scout for all-ins and have the best "generic opening" IMO. I find the 1 rax FE is not only very good economic opening, but can defend against anything with help of the scan as scout. So IMO Terran just have the advantage of in-base expand therefore hiding their strat, and always are able to scout, therefore can defend the incoming all in Anyone agree? No terran really uses scans early game. It doesn't help you in scouting all-ins really, if the P or Z simply hide units or proxy their buildings congratulations you just wasted 240 minerals on nothing. not even pro terrans scan early game, first scans are mainly early midgame or late-earlgame, because it's so hard to scout proxy gates and zerg all in is very hard to scout aswell because they can mass units so quickly, if a zerg decides to 2 base all-in there is very little you can do to scout that, in fact I think it's definitely easier to scout for protoss vs midgame zerg than it is for T, T has to hope for a "money" scan, you have to be very lucky with scans, you don't know where your opponent builds his stuff so once you have scanned you are completely in the dark again, unlike protoss who can use observers to constantly scout the opponent, altough they have to be very careful. I still think that more protoss players should proxy gateways anywhere on the map, like on taldarim in some corner on the outside bases, it makes it pretty much impossible for the terran to scout and gives him no information when he scans, theres no reason not to, the chances to lose them are less than 0,1% and the benefit is denying information which is crucial in sc2., also protoss players should start to build their tech buildings at different spots in their base, most P players have a base layout so that you can scan everything with 1 scan, you can maximize this to at least 2 scans on some maps even 3. but right now P players dont really think about this too much, they make it kind of easy for the terrans to scout their tech with just 1 scan Or Terrans can use their super fast hellions to scout like they have been doing the past few months. I haven't seen many Terrans surprised by an all-in since hellions became more popular. You get to scout and do damage! Neat! And the reason most Protoss players have a base layout close to their Nexus is because Terran drops are so harsh to Protoss buildings and because Protoss is the only race that can have its buildings unpowered. Too many times important tech has been lost or an important upgrade to a drop, so Protoss players have adapted by making it easier to defend. I find it hilarious how you think you know more than Protoss pros and they need you to tell them to space out their buildings because it takes more scans. As if they hadn't thought of it and perhaps had better reasons for not doing it. Great job. You should be a coach. On November 07 2011 07:55 flowSthead wrote:On November 07 2011 07:31 kofman wrote:On November 07 2011 06:44 flowSthead wrote:On November 07 2011 06:31 doko100 wrote:On November 07 2011 06:25 SeaSwift wrote:On November 07 2011 06:19 Logros wrote:
Ah so this is why Terran has been 5% higher in winrate on average the last 12 months. You solved the problem I would message Blizzard asap! I wouldn't bother replying to him. His post history says everything you need to know, ranging from "protoss players are just being retards as usual" ( here) to "protoss players...... /facepalm" ( here). He clearly either wants attention or is just heavily biased and doesn't want his race to look biased. Not to mention that what he wrote most recently is just plain wrong - if you flip a coin 1000 times and it lands on it's head 1000/1000 of those times, there is a (1/2)^1000 chance of that happening. Sure, it is chance, but they possibility is so small it is far more likely to be weighted. This is why statistics are used. Well I'm sorry, but recently every protoss player is just whining. In every single thread no matter if it's LR or whatever protoss players cry, it's even worse than Zerg in '10. Yes I'm getting quite annoyed by protoss players recently and so do a lot of other people in this community, you spread so much hate, you flame us on the ladder and complain all the time about everything. Sometimes I wish blizzard would just remove protoss from the game so that we can get rid of you balance whiners. Dude, that goes both ways. Maybe Protoss payers are sick and tired of being told they are just worse than their Terran/Zerg counterparts. I'm not in favor of balance whining either, but you do not just reply to balance whining. You are also replying poorly to legitimate balance ideas/complaints. It's one thing to decry the flamers and trolls, and another thing to decry the entire Protoss race. Just look at what you wrote and think about your own bias for a second. There is no way to decry just the flamers and balance whiners, without also decrying the entire Protoss race, because all protosses on TL are whiners. Just look at the graphic thats on the front of every GSL featured writeup. Seriously? How does this not get at least a warning? because it's true, what are you on about? this isn't nazi germany lol No, it isn't true. Not all Protoss are going around complaining, it is a vocal minority, or at most a vocal plurality. At the very least, it isn't "the entire Protoss race", that is just a hasty generalization and poor logic. That is also why I asked for a warning because it is not helping the discussion by having people like you going around saying the entire Protoss race is whining. It's not constructive. What are you talking about? The roach expand build is very difficult to scout as terran, and it basically hard counters the hellion expand if you don't get a fast tank or get a bunker. If you are letting hellions into your base that roast your drones and scout your entire base, your just bad. Its not because hellions are OP. It seems to me like you think you know everything. What a hypocrite. So, replying to my statement with a post asking for a warning is constructive, right? Plenty of very talented zergs lose drones to Hellions. And building a bunker as part of a hellion expand is just playing safe (See MVP vs AnNyeong in the WCG). I also never said hellions are OP. If you read what I wrote (critical reading is hard I know), then you would see that I responded that Terran can scout what the Zerg is doing relatively easily compared with Protoss due to their fast Hellions. It doesn't make the hellions OP. Quite the contrary. It makes the Terran race very stable, something which the Protoss race lacks. The only similar unit to the Hellion is the Phoenix, but a Phoenix is a much bigger investment than a Hellion. It is not quite comparable. And replying to your statement which is "the entire Protoss race is whiners" asking for a warning is constructive, yes. See, you are not contributing to the discussion, so therefore it would be constructive to get you to contribute with actual content rather than flame baiting. And no, I do not think I know everything. If you read my post history in the KA amulet thread, I actually ask a lot of questions and post what I "think" is the case. I then try to argue using logic and examples. I also welcome to be proven wrong, but so far doko here has only been posting about how much Protoss suck and how he knows better. I don't think that makes me a hypocrite. Please point out specific examples of where I am a hypocrite, and I would gladly concede. I hate making mistakes so I will do my best to not be a hypocrite.
If terran has to blindly make a bunker every time they are going hellion expand, then that means hellions can't scout easily scout whatever zerg is doing.
If I deserve a warning, then you deserve a warning to. Your post wasn't any more constructive than mine.
Saying "I think" before your statements doesn't mean that you don't think your right.
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On November 07 2011 08:32 kofman wrote:Show nested quote +On November 07 2011 08:20 flowSthead wrote:On November 07 2011 08:13 kofman wrote:On November 07 2011 08:06 flowSthead wrote:On November 07 2011 07:59 doko100 wrote:On November 07 2011 07:43 Elthreann wrote:On November 07 2011 07:27 kofman wrote:On November 07 2011 04:29 SeaSwift wrote:On November 07 2011 04:25 ZenithM wrote:
Looking balanced to me.
And even if it was not, there is not enough data to conclude anything.
And stats don't mean anything.
And you have to actually look at the gameplay and not the results to form an opinion on balance.
And Terran players are just better. Hahaha, I love the dry wit here on TL. Now that's all the Terran players' arguments out the way (y'know, the ones that have been raised every statistics thread since about March), now we can have a good moan about Protoss. I think that it's fairly obvious here that ZvT is Terran favoured, and the only reason why Zerg is looking okay is because ZvP is Zerg favoured, Protoss being the bottom of the heap as expected. I just hope these statistics quell any notions about balance raised by the MLG Orlando PvP finals. EDIT: On November 07 2011 04:27 DTK920 wrote:
A lot of protoss players have been complaining about losing to terran lately, but this graph clearly shows that ZvP is even worse. Don't know why all the hate is focused on terrans when zergs are clearly ahead. For a few reasons: 1) PvT has been Terran favoured since release, which indicates it is not a problem with innovation. 2) There is a new wave of PvZ coming in, led by HerO, JYP et al, which could solve the problem, whereas PvT looks pretty stagnant 3) There are few successful Zergs in GSL etc either, so although ZvP looks more imbalanced that might be because there are now Terrans in Code S who don't deserve to be there making the winrate look more even 4) ZvT looks imbalanced in favour of Terran as well, so Z and P can rally against T together. Lol, ZvT is the most balanced MU in the game! It's funny how zergs just have to find something to whine about. IMO the Terran imbalance mostly comes from: a) the variety of strats Terran can do while hiding it, because they can deny scouting, building an all-in or expanding. I still find Terran all-ins are the hardest to deal with because you hardly know they are coming b) Terran can easily scout for all-ins and have the best "generic opening" IMO. I find the 1 rax FE is not only very good economic opening, but can defend against anything with help of the scan as scout. So IMO Terran just have the advantage of in-base expand therefore hiding their strat, and always are able to scout, therefore can defend the incoming all in Anyone agree? No terran really uses scans early game. It doesn't help you in scouting all-ins really, if the P or Z simply hide units or proxy their buildings congratulations you just wasted 240 minerals on nothing. not even pro terrans scan early game, first scans are mainly early midgame or late-earlgame, because it's so hard to scout proxy gates and zerg all in is very hard to scout aswell because they can mass units so quickly, if a zerg decides to 2 base all-in there is very little you can do to scout that, in fact I think it's definitely easier to scout for protoss vs midgame zerg than it is for T, T has to hope for a "money" scan, you have to be very lucky with scans, you don't know where your opponent builds his stuff so once you have scanned you are completely in the dark again, unlike protoss who can use observers to constantly scout the opponent, altough they have to be very careful. I still think that more protoss players should proxy gateways anywhere on the map, like on taldarim in some corner on the outside bases, it makes it pretty much impossible for the terran to scout and gives him no information when he scans, theres no reason not to, the chances to lose them are less than 0,1% and the benefit is denying information which is crucial in sc2., also protoss players should start to build their tech buildings at different spots in their base, most P players have a base layout so that you can scan everything with 1 scan, you can maximize this to at least 2 scans on some maps even 3. but right now P players dont really think about this too much, they make it kind of easy for the terrans to scout their tech with just 1 scan Or Terrans can use their super fast hellions to scout like they have been doing the past few months. I haven't seen many Terrans surprised by an all-in since hellions became more popular. You get to scout and do damage! Neat! And the reason most Protoss players have a base layout close to their Nexus is because Terran drops are so harsh to Protoss buildings and because Protoss is the only race that can have its buildings unpowered. Too many times important tech has been lost or an important upgrade to a drop, so Protoss players have adapted by making it easier to defend. I find it hilarious how you think you know more than Protoss pros and they need you to tell them to space out their buildings because it takes more scans. As if they hadn't thought of it and perhaps had better reasons for not doing it. Great job. You should be a coach. On November 07 2011 07:55 flowSthead wrote:On November 07 2011 07:31 kofman wrote:On November 07 2011 06:44 flowSthead wrote:On November 07 2011 06:31 doko100 wrote:On November 07 2011 06:25 SeaSwift wrote:[quote] I wouldn't bother replying to him. His post history says everything you need to know, ranging from "protoss players are just being retards as usual" ( here) to "protoss players...... /facepalm" ( here). He clearly either wants attention or is just heavily biased and doesn't want his race to look biased. Not to mention that what he wrote most recently is just plain wrong - if you flip a coin 1000 times and it lands on it's head 1000/1000 of those times, there is a (1/2)^1000 chance of that happening. Sure, it is chance, but they possibility is so small it is far more likely to be weighted. This is why statistics are used. Well I'm sorry, but recently every protoss player is just whining. In every single thread no matter if it's LR or whatever protoss players cry, it's even worse than Zerg in '10. Yes I'm getting quite annoyed by protoss players recently and so do a lot of other people in this community, you spread so much hate, you flame us on the ladder and complain all the time about everything. Sometimes I wish blizzard would just remove protoss from the game so that we can get rid of you balance whiners. Dude, that goes both ways. Maybe Protoss payers are sick and tired of being told they are just worse than their Terran/Zerg counterparts. I'm not in favor of balance whining either, but you do not just reply to balance whining. You are also replying poorly to legitimate balance ideas/complaints. It's one thing to decry the flamers and trolls, and another thing to decry the entire Protoss race. Just look at what you wrote and think about your own bias for a second. There is no way to decry just the flamers and balance whiners, without also decrying the entire Protoss race, because all protosses on TL are whiners. Just look at the graphic thats on the front of every GSL featured writeup. Seriously? How does this not get at least a warning? because it's true, what are you on about? this isn't nazi germany lol No, it isn't true. Not all Protoss are going around complaining, it is a vocal minority, or at most a vocal plurality. At the very least, it isn't "the entire Protoss race", that is just a hasty generalization and poor logic. That is also why I asked for a warning because it is not helping the discussion by having people like you going around saying the entire Protoss race is whining. It's not constructive. What are you talking about? The roach expand build is very difficult to scout as terran, and it basically hard counters the hellion expand if you don't get a fast tank or get a bunker. If you are letting hellions into your base that roast your drones and scout your entire base, your just bad. Its not because hellions are OP. It seems to me like you think you know everything. What a hypocrite. So, replying to my statement with a post asking for a warning is constructive, right? Plenty of very talented zergs lose drones to Hellions. And building a bunker as part of a hellion expand is just playing safe (See MVP vs AnNyeong in the WCG). I also never said hellions are OP. If you read what I wrote (critical reading is hard I know), then you would see that I responded that Terran can scout what the Zerg is doing relatively easily compared with Protoss due to their fast Hellions. It doesn't make the hellions OP. Quite the contrary. It makes the Terran race very stable, something which the Protoss race lacks. The only similar unit to the Hellion is the Phoenix, but a Phoenix is a much bigger investment than a Hellion. It is not quite comparable. And replying to your statement which is "the entire Protoss race is whiners" asking for a warning is constructive, yes. See, you are not contributing to the discussion, so therefore it would be constructive to get you to contribute with actual content rather than flame baiting. And no, I do not think I know everything. If you read my post history in the KA amulet thread, I actually ask a lot of questions and post what I "think" is the case. I then try to argue using logic and examples. I also welcome to be proven wrong, but so far doko here has only been posting about how much Protoss suck and how he knows better. I don't think that makes me a hypocrite. Please point out specific examples of where I am a hypocrite, and I would gladly concede. I hate making mistakes so I will do my best to not be a hypocrite. If terran has to blindly make a bunker every time they are going hellion expand, then that means hellions can't scout easily scout whatever zerg is doing. If I deserve a warning, then you deserve a warning to. Your post wasn't any more constructive than mine. Saying "I think" before your statements doesn't mean that you don't think your right.
Well I wouldn't say if it I didn't think it was correct....
Also a bunker isn't a huge investment. You can sell it back for 75% of its cost, and it keeps you safe. How does that deter the Hellions from scouting anyway? I don't understand that. You are not blindly building a bunker. You are building a bunker because if the Zerg builds quick roaches, your Hellions will be weak to it, and so you need to keep your Marines alive long enough until you get a tank out or a banshee (depending on tech route). That is called thinking ahead, not playing blindly.
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ZvT winrate steadily climbing, must be all these roach openings. Protoss still being protoss, we're waiting for you Bisu.
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On November 07 2011 08:15 doko100 wrote:Show nested quote +On November 07 2011 08:06 flowSthead wrote:On November 07 2011 07:59 doko100 wrote:On November 07 2011 07:43 Elthreann wrote:On November 07 2011 07:27 kofman wrote:On November 07 2011 04:29 SeaSwift wrote:On November 07 2011 04:25 ZenithM wrote:
Looking balanced to me.
And even if it was not, there is not enough data to conclude anything.
And stats don't mean anything.
And you have to actually look at the gameplay and not the results to form an opinion on balance.
And Terran players are just better. Hahaha, I love the dry wit here on TL. Now that's all the Terran players' arguments out the way (y'know, the ones that have been raised every statistics thread since about March), now we can have a good moan about Protoss. I think that it's fairly obvious here that ZvT is Terran favoured, and the only reason why Zerg is looking okay is because ZvP is Zerg favoured, Protoss being the bottom of the heap as expected. I just hope these statistics quell any notions about balance raised by the MLG Orlando PvP finals. EDIT: On November 07 2011 04:27 DTK920 wrote:
A lot of protoss players have been complaining about losing to terran lately, but this graph clearly shows that ZvP is even worse. Don't know why all the hate is focused on terrans when zergs are clearly ahead. For a few reasons: 1) PvT has been Terran favoured since release, which indicates it is not a problem with innovation. 2) There is a new wave of PvZ coming in, led by HerO, JYP et al, which could solve the problem, whereas PvT looks pretty stagnant 3) There are few successful Zergs in GSL etc either, so although ZvP looks more imbalanced that might be because there are now Terrans in Code S who don't deserve to be there making the winrate look more even 4) ZvT looks imbalanced in favour of Terran as well, so Z and P can rally against T together. Lol, ZvT is the most balanced MU in the game! It's funny how zergs just have to find something to whine about. IMO the Terran imbalance mostly comes from: a) the variety of strats Terran can do while hiding it, because they can deny scouting, building an all-in or expanding. I still find Terran all-ins are the hardest to deal with because you hardly know they are coming b) Terran can easily scout for all-ins and have the best "generic opening" IMO. I find the 1 rax FE is not only very good economic opening, but can defend against anything with help of the scan as scout. So IMO Terran just have the advantage of in-base expand therefore hiding their strat, and always are able to scout, therefore can defend the incoming all in Anyone agree? No terran really uses scans early game. It doesn't help you in scouting all-ins really, if the P or Z simply hide units or proxy their buildings congratulations you just wasted 240 minerals on nothing. not even pro terrans scan early game, first scans are mainly early midgame or late-earlgame, because it's so hard to scout proxy gates and zerg all in is very hard to scout aswell because they can mass units so quickly, if a zerg decides to 2 base all-in there is very little you can do to scout that, in fact I think it's definitely easier to scout for protoss vs midgame zerg than it is for T, T has to hope for a "money" scan, you have to be very lucky with scans, you don't know where your opponent builds his stuff so once you have scanned you are completely in the dark again, unlike protoss who can use observers to constantly scout the opponent, altough they have to be very careful. I still think that more protoss players should proxy gateways anywhere on the map, like on taldarim in some corner on the outside bases, it makes it pretty much impossible for the terran to scout and gives him no information when he scans, theres no reason not to, the chances to lose them are less than 0,1% and the benefit is denying information which is crucial in sc2., also protoss players should start to build their tech buildings at different spots in their base, most P players have a base layout so that you can scan everything with 1 scan, you can maximize this to at least 2 scans on some maps even 3. but right now P players dont really think about this too much, they make it kind of easy for the terrans to scout their tech with just 1 scan Or Terrans can use their super fast hellions to scout like they have been doing the past few months. I haven't seen many Terrans surprised by an all-in since hellions became more popular. You get to scout and do damage! Neat! And the reason most Protoss players have a base layout close to their Nexus is because Terran drops are so harsh to Protoss buildings and because Protoss is the only race that can have its buildings unpowered. Too many times important tech has been lost or an important upgrade to a drop, so Protoss players have adapted by making it easier to defend. I find it hilarious how you think you know more than Protoss pros and they need you to tell them to space out their buildings because it takes more scans. As if they hadn't thought of it and perhaps had better reasons for not doing it. Great job. You should be a coach. Hellion openings require fast factory tech, you mostly play this in conjunction with the 1/1/1 build or a banshee build. if you use early hellions you can't use 1rax fe or 2 rax fe and if the protoss goes nexus first... well you are in trouble, or even if he 1 gate expands and then goes for robo, I don't see much you can do then. And the risk of a drop is there, so you obviously can't have everything spread out.... but you can build the twilight council behind your mineral line or the templar archives, it makes it harder for the terran to scan and you can't really tell me that base layouts are optimized at this point in time, there are a lot of small things T and P players can improve on in that regard, even pro players. On November 07 2011 07:55 flowSthead wrote:On November 07 2011 07:31 kofman wrote:On November 07 2011 06:44 flowSthead wrote:On November 07 2011 06:31 doko100 wrote:On November 07 2011 06:25 SeaSwift wrote:On November 07 2011 06:19 Logros wrote:
Ah so this is why Terran has been 5% higher in winrate on average the last 12 months. You solved the problem I would message Blizzard asap! I wouldn't bother replying to him. His post history says everything you need to know, ranging from "protoss players are just being retards as usual" ( here) to "protoss players...... /facepalm" ( here). He clearly either wants attention or is just heavily biased and doesn't want his race to look biased. Not to mention that what he wrote most recently is just plain wrong - if you flip a coin 1000 times and it lands on it's head 1000/1000 of those times, there is a (1/2)^1000 chance of that happening. Sure, it is chance, but they possibility is so small it is far more likely to be weighted. This is why statistics are used. Well I'm sorry, but recently every protoss player is just whining. In every single thread no matter if it's LR or whatever protoss players cry, it's even worse than Zerg in '10. Yes I'm getting quite annoyed by protoss players recently and so do a lot of other people in this community, you spread so much hate, you flame us on the ladder and complain all the time about everything. Sometimes I wish blizzard would just remove protoss from the game so that we can get rid of you balance whiners. Dude, that goes both ways. Maybe Protoss payers are sick and tired of being told they are just worse than their Terran/Zerg counterparts. I'm not in favor of balance whining either, but you do not just reply to balance whining. You are also replying poorly to legitimate balance ideas/complaints. It's one thing to decry the flamers and trolls, and another thing to decry the entire Protoss race. Just look at what you wrote and think about your own bias for a second. There is no way to decry just the flamers and balance whiners, without also decrying the entire Protoss race, because all protosses on TL are whiners. Just look at the graphic thats on the front of every GSL featured writeup. Seriously? How does this not get at least a warning? because it's true, what are you on about? this isn't nazi germany lol No, it isn't true. Not all Protoss are going around complaining, it is a vocal minority, or at most a vocal plurality. At the very least, it isn't "the entire Protoss race", that is just a hasty generalization and poor logic. That is also why I asked for a warning because it is not helping the discussion by having people like you going around saying the entire Protoss race is whining. It's not constructive. Well, I'm sorry, but there is so much protoss whine, even you are whining to some extent, you think protoss is the weakest race, fine no problem. but you base this on stats based on the highest level of play and make it sound like it affects your level of play aswell and so do most protoss players, they blame imbalance, flame T and Z players on the ladder and are getting really annoying recently, I didn't make the experience that it's only a handful of protoss player. I get flamed pretty much every second game against P or they just dont GG anymore, hardly ever do I get a protoss player that GGs or doesn't flame me and some other Z and Ts I've been talking to made the same experience, it's pathetic to think that protoss is weak on the ladder, they are the most succesful ladder race for quite some time now, with the most players in GM and M and most average points, there is NO NEED for non pro toss players to complain, it's irrational.
Yup, definitely agree with this. Kinda really getting tired of whining Protoss around these forums. Losing as Protoss on ladder does not mean anything. In fact, I think Protoss is the strongest race on ladder (except probably the pros who ladder) because they can't abuse the potential of the other two races. (Terran micro, multitasking and Zerg's macro) It's the easiest to replicate what the pros do out of all the races.
However, that being said, I still get very ticked off from all the "lol, Protoss players are so bad/retarded" comments. They're progamers ffs and they know the game better than the people who are flaming them. Protoss is struggling right now and with the current strategies they have, they are gonna look like they make mistakes. And ffs losing on ladder to Protoss doesn't mean anything. If anything, it means you are terrible because you can't beat low tier Protoss when all the high tier Protoss are struggling.
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On November 07 2011 08:31 doko100 wrote:Show nested quote +On November 07 2011 08:24 flowSthead wrote:On November 07 2011 08:15 doko100 wrote:On November 07 2011 08:06 flowSthead wrote:On November 07 2011 07:59 doko100 wrote:On November 07 2011 07:43 Elthreann wrote:On November 07 2011 07:27 kofman wrote:On November 07 2011 04:29 SeaSwift wrote:On November 07 2011 04:25 ZenithM wrote:
Looking balanced to me.
And even if it was not, there is not enough data to conclude anything.
And stats don't mean anything.
And you have to actually look at the gameplay and not the results to form an opinion on balance.
And Terran players are just better. Hahaha, I love the dry wit here on TL. Now that's all the Terran players' arguments out the way (y'know, the ones that have been raised every statistics thread since about March), now we can have a good moan about Protoss. I think that it's fairly obvious here that ZvT is Terran favoured, and the only reason why Zerg is looking okay is because ZvP is Zerg favoured, Protoss being the bottom of the heap as expected. I just hope these statistics quell any notions about balance raised by the MLG Orlando PvP finals. EDIT: On November 07 2011 04:27 DTK920 wrote:
A lot of protoss players have been complaining about losing to terran lately, but this graph clearly shows that ZvP is even worse. Don't know why all the hate is focused on terrans when zergs are clearly ahead. For a few reasons: 1) PvT has been Terran favoured since release, which indicates it is not a problem with innovation. 2) There is a new wave of PvZ coming in, led by HerO, JYP et al, which could solve the problem, whereas PvT looks pretty stagnant 3) There are few successful Zergs in GSL etc either, so although ZvP looks more imbalanced that might be because there are now Terrans in Code S who don't deserve to be there making the winrate look more even 4) ZvT looks imbalanced in favour of Terran as well, so Z and P can rally against T together. Lol, ZvT is the most balanced MU in the game! It's funny how zergs just have to find something to whine about. IMO the Terran imbalance mostly comes from: a) the variety of strats Terran can do while hiding it, because they can deny scouting, building an all-in or expanding. I still find Terran all-ins are the hardest to deal with because you hardly know they are coming b) Terran can easily scout for all-ins and have the best "generic opening" IMO. I find the 1 rax FE is not only very good economic opening, but can defend against anything with help of the scan as scout. So IMO Terran just have the advantage of in-base expand therefore hiding their strat, and always are able to scout, therefore can defend the incoming all in Anyone agree? No terran really uses scans early game. It doesn't help you in scouting all-ins really, if the P or Z simply hide units or proxy their buildings congratulations you just wasted 240 minerals on nothing. not even pro terrans scan early game, first scans are mainly early midgame or late-earlgame, because it's so hard to scout proxy gates and zerg all in is very hard to scout aswell because they can mass units so quickly, if a zerg decides to 2 base all-in there is very little you can do to scout that, in fact I think it's definitely easier to scout for protoss vs midgame zerg than it is for T, T has to hope for a "money" scan, you have to be very lucky with scans, you don't know where your opponent builds his stuff so once you have scanned you are completely in the dark again, unlike protoss who can use observers to constantly scout the opponent, altough they have to be very careful. I still think that more protoss players should proxy gateways anywhere on the map, like on taldarim in some corner on the outside bases, it makes it pretty much impossible for the terran to scout and gives him no information when he scans, theres no reason not to, the chances to lose them are less than 0,1% and the benefit is denying information which is crucial in sc2., also protoss players should start to build their tech buildings at different spots in their base, most P players have a base layout so that you can scan everything with 1 scan, you can maximize this to at least 2 scans on some maps even 3. but right now P players dont really think about this too much, they make it kind of easy for the terrans to scout their tech with just 1 scan Or Terrans can use their super fast hellions to scout like they have been doing the past few months. I haven't seen many Terrans surprised by an all-in since hellions became more popular. You get to scout and do damage! Neat! And the reason most Protoss players have a base layout close to their Nexus is because Terran drops are so harsh to Protoss buildings and because Protoss is the only race that can have its buildings unpowered. Too many times important tech has been lost or an important upgrade to a drop, so Protoss players have adapted by making it easier to defend. I find it hilarious how you think you know more than Protoss pros and they need you to tell them to space out their buildings because it takes more scans. As if they hadn't thought of it and perhaps had better reasons for not doing it. Great job. You should be a coach. Hellion openings require fast factory tech, you mostly play this in conjunction with the 1/1/1 build or a banshee build. if you use early hellions you can't use 1rax fe or 2 rax fe and if the protoss goes nexus first... well you are in trouble, or even if he 1 gate expands and then goes for robo, I don't see much you can do then. And the risk of a drop is there, so you obviously can't have everything spread out.... but you can build the twilight council behind your mineral line or the templar archives, it makes it harder for the terran to scan and you can't really tell me that base layouts are optimized at this point in time, there are a lot of small things T and P players can improve on in that regard, even pro players. On November 07 2011 07:55 flowSthead wrote:On November 07 2011 07:31 kofman wrote:On November 07 2011 06:44 flowSthead wrote:On November 07 2011 06:31 doko100 wrote:On November 07 2011 06:25 SeaSwift wrote:[quote] I wouldn't bother replying to him. His post history says everything you need to know, ranging from "protoss players are just being retards as usual" ( here) to "protoss players...... /facepalm" ( here). He clearly either wants attention or is just heavily biased and doesn't want his race to look biased. Not to mention that what he wrote most recently is just plain wrong - if you flip a coin 1000 times and it lands on it's head 1000/1000 of those times, there is a (1/2)^1000 chance of that happening. Sure, it is chance, but they possibility is so small it is far more likely to be weighted. This is why statistics are used. Well I'm sorry, but recently every protoss player is just whining. In every single thread no matter if it's LR or whatever protoss players cry, it's even worse than Zerg in '10. Yes I'm getting quite annoyed by protoss players recently and so do a lot of other people in this community, you spread so much hate, you flame us on the ladder and complain all the time about everything. Sometimes I wish blizzard would just remove protoss from the game so that we can get rid of you balance whiners. Dude, that goes both ways. Maybe Protoss payers are sick and tired of being told they are just worse than their Terran/Zerg counterparts. I'm not in favor of balance whining either, but you do not just reply to balance whining. You are also replying poorly to legitimate balance ideas/complaints. It's one thing to decry the flamers and trolls, and another thing to decry the entire Protoss race. Just look at what you wrote and think about your own bias for a second. There is no way to decry just the flamers and balance whiners, without also decrying the entire Protoss race, because all protosses on TL are whiners. Just look at the graphic thats on the front of every GSL featured writeup. Seriously? How does this not get at least a warning? because it's true, what are you on about? this isn't nazi germany lol No, it isn't true. Not all Protoss are going around complaining, it is a vocal minority, or at most a vocal plurality. At the very least, it isn't "the entire Protoss race", that is just a hasty generalization and poor logic. That is also why I asked for a warning because it is not helping the discussion by having people like you going around saying the entire Protoss race is whining. It's not constructive. Well, I'm sorry, but there is so much protoss whine, even you are whining to some extent, you think protoss is the weakest race, fine no problem. but you base this on stats based on the highest level of play and make it sound like it affects your level of play aswell and so do most protoss players, they blame imbalance, flame T and Z players on the ladder and are getting really annoying recently, I didn't make the experience that it's only a handful of protoss player. I get flamed pretty much every second game against P or they just dont GG anymore, hardly ever do I get a protoss player that GGs or doesn't flame me and some other Z and Ts I've been talking to made the same experience, it's pathetic to think that protoss is weak on the ladder, they are the most succesful ladder race for quite some time now, with the most players in GM and M and most average points, there is NO NEED for non pro toss players to complain, it's irrational. I never said Protoss is the weakest race. Protoss has some of the strongest all ins in the games, some of the best timings, and some of the best cheeses. I think that is the reason that these winrates are not worse. I think Protoss is the weakest macro race, definitely, which is my problem with the way it is currently balanced. I also want to watch great games from equally skilled players where both players go macro games. You are right, it doesn't affect me and I never said it did in my play. But it does affect my viewing experience of the game since I watch the pros play. I want more Protoss macro games, and it is difficult to see because of the way the race is designed. Yes but this is the essential problem and you are 100% right. It's race design. Protoss is the best ladder race, to a point where some master terran (myself included) hate the matchup really, this is reflected by statistics. But it's possibly also the worst race in pro play. And yes you should balance the game around pro play, I agree, BUT you also need to keep an eye on casual play (everything below GM), in a well designed game, all races would be equally strong at all levels of play, but that is simply not the case. So if protoss gets buffed alot more yes it might help or will help pro-play, but at the same time you have to consider that protoss already is the strongest ladder race even in GM and M, so if they buff protoss even more they run risk that more and more zerg and especially terran players quite the game or simply switch to toss and that is not in the interest of blizzard. terran is already the least played race in GM and M by miles, it's not even close, and yes the game should be balanced around the very top level, but I dont think it's that easy blizzard wants equal race distribution but that already isn't the case with protoss dominating the ladder, so what can they do? I'm not sure.
This is kind of why we are having these discussions, to put out ideas. I don't think Blizzard is experimenting as much as they should be. Protoss needs better defense which is why I am in favor of KA since it adds better defense to 4th and 5th bases, but so does Zerg (need better defense) against some Protoss/Terran all ins. I, for one, am in favor of the spine crawler having a shorter burrow time, such as 8 or 9 seconds instead of 12, since I think it will help Zergs defend some of the earlier pushes better. But I don't actually know how that will affect the matchup so maybe that isn't a good solution, and maybe KA will wreck the lower leagues like you said.
The thing is, a lot of the changes made over the last year have shifted the game to such a point that bringing something back is not necessarily going to wreck the game. KA might be just as bad now as it was before it was removed. But maybe with the longer warpgate research and shorter pylon radius, it won't be as bad. It's impossible to know until pros play it, and until the lower leagues play it. So since according to Blizzard the game is mostly balanced, why not test out some of the things they removed in the PTR to see how the PTR players deal with them, and see if they ruin match ups or they add more choices. I don't see why I should be satisfied with the way the game currently is when these things can be tested out. Just because it goes on the PTR does not mean it has to be reintroduced to the ladder. The PTR should be for testing, regardless of whether it goes back into the game for real.
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On November 07 2011 04:23 TerlocSG wrote:
The Y-axis kind of makes the graphs misleading. :/ It makes the difference in win % look a lot bigger than it really is. It's good information, and I'm not saying it isn't true, just making the view from 40 to 60% makes a 5% difference look huge.
Hopefully protoss can pick it up this month.
That is the idea, actually. Amplifies the differences, like the graph should. (Given that the point of it is to graph the differences) I mean, if he hadn't broke the graph at 40% and given it the range it does, it would really look stupid lol
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Can't believe the win rates of protoss still so low. They have been doing well in tournaments, but maybe the most recent ones aren't factored in so much.
My ZvP winrate is much lower than the averages. >_>;;
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So wait, PvZ is 43.7/56.3 and meanwhile people whine on TvZ which is 52/48?
Dammit people, 52/48 is pretty damn well balanced and I dont really see how you could expect it to be better... Arguing that Terran has been dominant since release is meaningless, this isn't WoW, it's not "oh ok now it's your turn to be imba for a few months", the goal is actual balance. I dont really see how you can expect to get exactly 50/50 every single month...
TvP still looks a bit T favored at tournament level, but 1.4.2 should push it in the right direction.
PvZ is more worrying, but I dont play Z or P so I wont comment on it.
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It's obvious.
Patch 1.3
High Templar
Khaydarin Amulet upgrade (+25 starting energy) has been removed.
Thats when protoss started losing every matchup.
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On November 07 2011 08:48 Blade Fox wrote:
It's obvious.
Patch 1.3
High Templar
Khaydarin Amulet upgrade (+25 starting energy) has been removed.
Thats when protoss started losing every matchup.
No, it really wasn't, that needed to be removed because of how strong it was, it's stupid to blame the recent down slope of P win % on that alone.
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On November 07 2011 08:42 flowSthead wrote:Show nested quote +On November 07 2011 08:31 doko100 wrote:On November 07 2011 08:24 flowSthead wrote:On November 07 2011 08:15 doko100 wrote:On November 07 2011 08:06 flowSthead wrote:On November 07 2011 07:59 doko100 wrote:On November 07 2011 07:43 Elthreann wrote:On November 07 2011 07:27 kofman wrote:On November 07 2011 04:29 SeaSwift wrote:On November 07 2011 04:25 ZenithM wrote:
Looking balanced to me.
And even if it was not, there is not enough data to conclude anything.
And stats don't mean anything.
And you have to actually look at the gameplay and not the results to form an opinion on balance.
And Terran players are just better. Hahaha, I love the dry wit here on TL. Now that's all the Terran players' arguments out the way (y'know, the ones that have been raised every statistics thread since about March), now we can have a good moan about Protoss. I think that it's fairly obvious here that ZvT is Terran favoured, and the only reason why Zerg is looking okay is because ZvP is Zerg favoured, Protoss being the bottom of the heap as expected. I just hope these statistics quell any notions about balance raised by the MLG Orlando PvP finals. EDIT: On November 07 2011 04:27 DTK920 wrote:
A lot of protoss players have been complaining about losing to terran lately, but this graph clearly shows that ZvP is even worse. Don't know why all the hate is focused on terrans when zergs are clearly ahead. For a few reasons: 1) PvT has been Terran favoured since release, which indicates it is not a problem with innovation. 2) There is a new wave of PvZ coming in, led by HerO, JYP et al, which could solve the problem, whereas PvT looks pretty stagnant 3) There are few successful Zergs in GSL etc either, so although ZvP looks more imbalanced that might be because there are now Terrans in Code S who don't deserve to be there making the winrate look more even 4) ZvT looks imbalanced in favour of Terran as well, so Z and P can rally against T together. Lol, ZvT is the most balanced MU in the game! It's funny how zergs just have to find something to whine about. IMO the Terran imbalance mostly comes from: a) the variety of strats Terran can do while hiding it, because they can deny scouting, building an all-in or expanding. I still find Terran all-ins are the hardest to deal with because you hardly know they are coming b) Terran can easily scout for all-ins and have the best "generic opening" IMO. I find the 1 rax FE is not only very good economic opening, but can defend against anything with help of the scan as scout. So IMO Terran just have the advantage of in-base expand therefore hiding their strat, and always are able to scout, therefore can defend the incoming all in Anyone agree? No terran really uses scans early game. It doesn't help you in scouting all-ins really, if the P or Z simply hide units or proxy their buildings congratulations you just wasted 240 minerals on nothing. not even pro terrans scan early game, first scans are mainly early midgame or late-earlgame, because it's so hard to scout proxy gates and zerg all in is very hard to scout aswell because they can mass units so quickly, if a zerg decides to 2 base all-in there is very little you can do to scout that, in fact I think it's definitely easier to scout for protoss vs midgame zerg than it is for T, T has to hope for a "money" scan, you have to be very lucky with scans, you don't know where your opponent builds his stuff so once you have scanned you are completely in the dark again, unlike protoss who can use observers to constantly scout the opponent, altough they have to be very careful. I still think that more protoss players should proxy gateways anywhere on the map, like on taldarim in some corner on the outside bases, it makes it pretty much impossible for the terran to scout and gives him no information when he scans, theres no reason not to, the chances to lose them are less than 0,1% and the benefit is denying information which is crucial in sc2., also protoss players should start to build their tech buildings at different spots in their base, most P players have a base layout so that you can scan everything with 1 scan, you can maximize this to at least 2 scans on some maps even 3. but right now P players dont really think about this too much, they make it kind of easy for the terrans to scout their tech with just 1 scan Or Terrans can use their super fast hellions to scout like they have been doing the past few months. I haven't seen many Terrans surprised by an all-in since hellions became more popular. You get to scout and do damage! Neat! And the reason most Protoss players have a base layout close to their Nexus is because Terran drops are so harsh to Protoss buildings and because Protoss is the only race that can have its buildings unpowered. Too many times important tech has been lost or an important upgrade to a drop, so Protoss players have adapted by making it easier to defend. I find it hilarious how you think you know more than Protoss pros and they need you to tell them to space out their buildings because it takes more scans. As if they hadn't thought of it and perhaps had better reasons for not doing it. Great job. You should be a coach. Hellion openings require fast factory tech, you mostly play this in conjunction with the 1/1/1 build or a banshee build. if you use early hellions you can't use 1rax fe or 2 rax fe and if the protoss goes nexus first... well you are in trouble, or even if he 1 gate expands and then goes for robo, I don't see much you can do then. And the risk of a drop is there, so you obviously can't have everything spread out.... but you can build the twilight council behind your mineral line or the templar archives, it makes it harder for the terran to scan and you can't really tell me that base layouts are optimized at this point in time, there are a lot of small things T and P players can improve on in that regard, even pro players. On November 07 2011 07:55 flowSthead wrote:On November 07 2011 07:31 kofman wrote:On November 07 2011 06:44 flowSthead wrote:On November 07 2011 06:31 doko100 wrote:
[quote]
Well I'm sorry, but recently every protoss player is just whining. In every single thread no matter if it's LR or whatever protoss players cry, it's even worse than Zerg in '10. Yes I'm getting quite annoyed by protoss players recently and so do a lot of other people in this community, you spread so much hate, you flame us on the ladder and complain all the time about everything. Sometimes I wish blizzard would just remove protoss from the game so that we can get rid of you balance whiners.
Dude, that goes both ways. Maybe Protoss payers are sick and tired of being told they are just worse than their Terran/Zerg counterparts. I'm not in favor of balance whining either, but you do not just reply to balance whining. You are also replying poorly to legitimate balance ideas/complaints. It's one thing to decry the flamers and trolls, and another thing to decry the entire Protoss race. Just look at what you wrote and think about your own bias for a second. There is no way to decry just the flamers and balance whiners, without also decrying the entire Protoss race, because all protosses on TL are whiners. Just look at the graphic thats on the front of every GSL featured writeup. Seriously? How does this not get at least a warning? because it's true, what are you on about? this isn't nazi germany lol No, it isn't true. Not all Protoss are going around complaining, it is a vocal minority, or at most a vocal plurality. At the very least, it isn't "the entire Protoss race", that is just a hasty generalization and poor logic. That is also why I asked for a warning because it is not helping the discussion by having people like you going around saying the entire Protoss race is whining. It's not constructive. Well, I'm sorry, but there is so much protoss whine, even you are whining to some extent, you think protoss is the weakest race, fine no problem. but you base this on stats based on the highest level of play and make it sound like it affects your level of play aswell and so do most protoss players, they blame imbalance, flame T and Z players on the ladder and are getting really annoying recently, I didn't make the experience that it's only a handful of protoss player. I get flamed pretty much every second game against P or they just dont GG anymore, hardly ever do I get a protoss player that GGs or doesn't flame me and some other Z and Ts I've been talking to made the same experience, it's pathetic to think that protoss is weak on the ladder, they are the most succesful ladder race for quite some time now, with the most players in GM and M and most average points, there is NO NEED for non pro toss players to complain, it's irrational. I never said Protoss is the weakest race. Protoss has some of the strongest all ins in the games, some of the best timings, and some of the best cheeses. I think that is the reason that these winrates are not worse. I think Protoss is the weakest macro race, definitely, which is my problem with the way it is currently balanced. I also want to watch great games from equally skilled players where both players go macro games. You are right, it doesn't affect me and I never said it did in my play. But it does affect my viewing experience of the game since I watch the pros play. I want more Protoss macro games, and it is difficult to see because of the way the race is designed. Yes but this is the essential problem and you are 100% right. It's race design. Protoss is the best ladder race, to a point where some master terran (myself included) hate the matchup really, this is reflected by statistics. But it's possibly also the worst race in pro play. And yes you should balance the game around pro play, I agree, BUT you also need to keep an eye on casual play (everything below GM), in a well designed game, all races would be equally strong at all levels of play, but that is simply not the case. So if protoss gets buffed alot more yes it might help or will help pro-play, but at the same time you have to consider that protoss already is the strongest ladder race even in GM and M, so if they buff protoss even more they run risk that more and more zerg and especially terran players quite the game or simply switch to toss and that is not in the interest of blizzard. terran is already the least played race in GM and M by miles, it's not even close, and yes the game should be balanced around the very top level, but I dont think it's that easy blizzard wants equal race distribution but that already isn't the case with protoss dominating the ladder, so what can they do? I'm not sure. This is kind of why we are having these discussions, to put out ideas. I don't think Blizzard is experimenting as much as they should be. Protoss needs better defense which is why I am in favor of KA since it adds better defense to 4th and 5th bases, but so does Zerg (need better defense) against some Protoss/Terran all ins. I, for one, am in favor of the spine crawler having a shorter burrow time, such as 8 or 9 seconds instead of 12, since I think it will help Zergs defend some of the earlier pushes better. But I don't actually know how that will affect the matchup so maybe that isn't a good solution, and maybe KA will wreck the lower leagues like you said. The thing is, a lot of the changes made over the last year have shifted the game to such a point that bringing something back is not necessarily going to wreck the game. KA might be just as bad now as it was before it was removed. But maybe with the longer warpgate research and shorter pylon radius, it won't be as bad. It's impossible to know until pros play it, and until the lower leagues play it. So since according to Blizzard the game is mostly balanced, why not test out some of the things they removed in the PTR to see how the PTR players deal with them, and see if they ruin match ups or they add more choices. I don't see why I should be satisfied with the way the game currently is when these things can be tested out. Just because it goes on the PTR does not mean it has to be reintroduced to the ladder. The PTR should be for testing, regardless of whether it goes back into the game for real.
But here's another problem, you would give protoss and zerg a bonus, but terran gets nothing. Yes this would really help pro players, but the core problem for blizzard and all of us non pro-players is the race distribution on the ladder.
It will just make things worse in the regard, Blizzard doesn't want that, they want to have all races equally distributed on the ladder, if you now give the already underrepresented and statistically worst ladder race (terran) nothing and the two stronger ladder races even more tools to work with. This doesn't solve the problem, it makes it even worse, the numbers are already very significant, I think there are only around 9000 terran players in GM and M worldwide but 14000 protoss and 14000 zerg players. Significant really. Terran also has least average points in their leagues. Terran really struggle on the ladder and now think for a second about how we terrans feel. we see the best of the best winning and winning but we don't have the micro and multitasking to do what they do so we lose and then there is protoss who require less micro and multitasking and are alot stronger on the ladder, yet our race is getting nerfed.... are you really surprised that more and more terrans are quiting the game? yes it is a skill problem, but what's our motivation to get better when our race always gets nerfed and we lose to players that we feel like aren't any better than we are, just picked the 'easier' ladder race?
You have to understand both sides. I can understand the protoss side, but it is so annoying to get flamed by someone on the ladder who is playing a race that is much more succesful than my own race (on the ladder) it's just irrational.
edit: I have to apologize, i just checked the numbers and they werent that significant I must have mixed it up with diamond league or something, but the numbers are still pretty significant 7400 protoss , 7300 zerg and 6200 terran, in diamond13,5k P, 11k T, 15k Z) it's even worse but that's not my point, just saying that on the ladder in general terran seems really dead
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I thought tvz was quite balanced, and I think I'm right here. If you look at the matches, not just percentages, tvz is 4780-4412. If you account for the fact that close pos shattered was still in the map pool until 6 days before ladder lock, and attribute an arbitrary number of imbalanced wins to terran (which everyone agrees on for those positions) to like 150 or something(1.5% of total games seems fair to me, take into account that zerg doesn't lose ALL games in that position) and remove those from the set, then the actual win rate would be something like 4680-4412, or a 51.4% vs 48.5%. Seems like it would be more accurate that way, maybe I'm using bad inferences?
Another point, October is the first full month of school (for me at least) I played probably about 230-250 games during September, and 2 for October. Considering the likely age demographic for sc2 players, I'm expecting to see similar results for the November report, and slightly higher numbers for the December report.
And finally on a personal whine note, I wish people were a little more patient with data results. Yes this game has been out for a year+a month or 2, and yes Terran has been on top overall for every month, but things take time to sort themselves out. I think close to 24200 games is enough to conclude something is a little off with Terran, but the game is more balanced now than 5 months ago (in terms of vt matchups, the big difference in zvp is really bogging down Protoss this month). Huge changes like nitro packs, first ghost change, fungel buff, and smaller changes like making archons massive, nerfing blue flame, are all things that directly nerf Terran specifically (I'd argue the recent fungel nerf was in favor of pvz, not tvz). I'm not saying Terran is balanced, but I think blizzard is being careful with how they balance the game. They haven't made any big terran buffs have they? If blizzard didn't care they wouldn't have made any big changes. My plea is to give them their time. For 90% or more of the people responding to this post, balance doesn't affect their gameplay anyway.
I also think Terran players have made exploits of their units better than the other 2 races. Warp prisms are finally getting more usage, and zergs are still somewhat slacking on nydus worm usage (I do understand it takes gas and enough workers kill it in time T_T, but they can still be good)
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On November 07 2011 04:25 ZenithM wrote:
Looking balanced to me.
And even if it was not, there is not enough data to conclude anything.
And stats don't mean anything.
And you have to actually look at the gameplay and not the results to form an opinion on balance.
And Terran players are just better.
Edit: Oh yeah I forgot that one: The difference is actually not that huge guys! The scale of the Y-axis is exagerated!
Are you attempting to troll, good sir?
"Terran players are just better."
Aren't results a result of the gameplay? I can't tell if you're joking or not, but if you aren't could you explain a bit more fully. It is rather unfortunate that the Y-Axis is cut off though... I agree.
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hey,
When you look at September winrates for PvT in this graph it shows almost 50:50. That doesnt seem right. Therefore I looked up the september thread and there its something like 43:57. Am i missing something? reading it wrong? im confused...someone with more mathskills than me plz enlighten me.
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On November 07 2011 08:51 doko100 wrote:Show nested quote +On November 07 2011 08:42 flowSthead wrote:On November 07 2011 08:31 doko100 wrote:On November 07 2011 08:24 flowSthead wrote:On November 07 2011 08:15 doko100 wrote:On November 07 2011 08:06 flowSthead wrote:On November 07 2011 07:59 doko100 wrote:On November 07 2011 07:43 Elthreann wrote:On November 07 2011 07:27 kofman wrote:On November 07 2011 04:29 SeaSwift wrote:
[quote]
Hahaha, I love the dry wit here on TL.
Now that's all the Terran players' arguments out the way (y'know, the ones that have been raised every statistics thread since about March), now we can have a good moan about Protoss.
I think that it's fairly obvious here that ZvT is Terran favoured, and the only reason why Zerg is looking okay is because ZvP is Zerg favoured, Protoss being the bottom of the heap as expected. I just hope these statistics quell any notions about balance raised by the MLG Orlando PvP finals.
EDIT:
[quote]
For a few reasons:
1) PvT has been Terran favoured since release, which indicates it is not a problem with innovation.
2) There is a new wave of PvZ coming in, led by HerO, JYP et al, which could solve the problem, whereas PvT looks pretty stagnant
3) There are few successful Zergs in GSL etc either, so although ZvP looks more imbalanced that might be because there are now Terrans in Code S who don't deserve to be there making the winrate look more even
4) ZvT looks imbalanced in favour of Terran as well, so Z and P can rally against T together. Lol, ZvT is the most balanced MU in the game! It's funny how zergs just have to find something to whine about. IMO the Terran imbalance mostly comes from: a) the variety of strats Terran can do while hiding it, because they can deny scouting, building an all-in or expanding. I still find Terran all-ins are the hardest to deal with because you hardly know they are coming b) Terran can easily scout for all-ins and have the best "generic opening" IMO. I find the 1 rax FE is not only very good economic opening, but can defend against anything with help of the scan as scout. So IMO Terran just have the advantage of in-base expand therefore hiding their strat, and always are able to scout, therefore can defend the incoming all in Anyone agree? No terran really uses scans early game. It doesn't help you in scouting all-ins really, if the P or Z simply hide units or proxy their buildings congratulations you just wasted 240 minerals on nothing. not even pro terrans scan early game, first scans are mainly early midgame or late-earlgame, because it's so hard to scout proxy gates and zerg all in is very hard to scout aswell because they can mass units so quickly, if a zerg decides to 2 base all-in there is very little you can do to scout that, in fact I think it's definitely easier to scout for protoss vs midgame zerg than it is for T, T has to hope for a "money" scan, you have to be very lucky with scans, you don't know where your opponent builds his stuff so once you have scanned you are completely in the dark again, unlike protoss who can use observers to constantly scout the opponent, altough they have to be very careful. I still think that more protoss players should proxy gateways anywhere on the map, like on taldarim in some corner on the outside bases, it makes it pretty much impossible for the terran to scout and gives him no information when he scans, theres no reason not to, the chances to lose them are less than 0,1% and the benefit is denying information which is crucial in sc2., also protoss players should start to build their tech buildings at different spots in their base, most P players have a base layout so that you can scan everything with 1 scan, you can maximize this to at least 2 scans on some maps even 3. but right now P players dont really think about this too much, they make it kind of easy for the terrans to scout their tech with just 1 scan Or Terrans can use their super fast hellions to scout like they have been doing the past few months. I haven't seen many Terrans surprised by an all-in since hellions became more popular. You get to scout and do damage! Neat! And the reason most Protoss players have a base layout close to their Nexus is because Terran drops are so harsh to Protoss buildings and because Protoss is the only race that can have its buildings unpowered. Too many times important tech has been lost or an important upgrade to a drop, so Protoss players have adapted by making it easier to defend. I find it hilarious how you think you know more than Protoss pros and they need you to tell them to space out their buildings because it takes more scans. As if they hadn't thought of it and perhaps had better reasons for not doing it. Great job. You should be a coach. Hellion openings require fast factory tech, you mostly play this in conjunction with the 1/1/1 build or a banshee build. if you use early hellions you can't use 1rax fe or 2 rax fe and if the protoss goes nexus first... well you are in trouble, or even if he 1 gate expands and then goes for robo, I don't see much you can do then. And the risk of a drop is there, so you obviously can't have everything spread out.... but you can build the twilight council behind your mineral line or the templar archives, it makes it harder for the terran to scan and you can't really tell me that base layouts are optimized at this point in time, there are a lot of small things T and P players can improve on in that regard, even pro players. On November 07 2011 07:55 flowSthead wrote:On November 07 2011 07:31 kofman wrote:On November 07 2011 06:44 flowSthead wrote:
[quote]
Dude, that goes both ways. Maybe Protoss payers are sick and tired of being told they are just worse than their Terran/Zerg counterparts. I'm not in favor of balance whining either, but you do not just reply to balance whining. You are also replying poorly to legitimate balance ideas/complaints. It's one thing to decry the flamers and trolls, and another thing to decry the entire Protoss race.
Just look at what you wrote and think about your own bias for a second. There is no way to decry just the flamers and balance whiners, without also decrying the entire Protoss race, because all protosses on TL are whiners. Just look at the graphic thats on the front of every GSL featured writeup. Seriously? How does this not get at least a warning? because it's true, what are you on about? this isn't nazi germany lol No, it isn't true. Not all Protoss are going around complaining, it is a vocal minority, or at most a vocal plurality. At the very least, it isn't "the entire Protoss race", that is just a hasty generalization and poor logic. That is also why I asked for a warning because it is not helping the discussion by having people like you going around saying the entire Protoss race is whining. It's not constructive. Well, I'm sorry, but there is so much protoss whine, even you are whining to some extent, you think protoss is the weakest race, fine no problem. but you base this on stats based on the highest level of play and make it sound like it affects your level of play aswell and so do most protoss players, they blame imbalance, flame T and Z players on the ladder and are getting really annoying recently, I didn't make the experience that it's only a handful of protoss player. I get flamed pretty much every second game against P or they just dont GG anymore, hardly ever do I get a protoss player that GGs or doesn't flame me and some other Z and Ts I've been talking to made the same experience, it's pathetic to think that protoss is weak on the ladder, they are the most succesful ladder race for quite some time now, with the most players in GM and M and most average points, there is NO NEED for non pro toss players to complain, it's irrational. I never said Protoss is the weakest race. Protoss has some of the strongest all ins in the games, some of the best timings, and some of the best cheeses. I think that is the reason that these winrates are not worse. I think Protoss is the weakest macro race, definitely, which is my problem with the way it is currently balanced. I also want to watch great games from equally skilled players where both players go macro games. You are right, it doesn't affect me and I never said it did in my play. But it does affect my viewing experience of the game since I watch the pros play. I want more Protoss macro games, and it is difficult to see because of the way the race is designed. Yes but this is the essential problem and you are 100% right. It's race design. Protoss is the best ladder race, to a point where some master terran (myself included) hate the matchup really, this is reflected by statistics. But it's possibly also the worst race in pro play. And yes you should balance the game around pro play, I agree, BUT you also need to keep an eye on casual play (everything below GM), in a well designed game, all races would be equally strong at all levels of play, but that is simply not the case. So if protoss gets buffed alot more yes it might help or will help pro-play, but at the same time you have to consider that protoss already is the strongest ladder race even in GM and M, so if they buff protoss even more they run risk that more and more zerg and especially terran players quite the game or simply switch to toss and that is not in the interest of blizzard. terran is already the least played race in GM and M by miles, it's not even close, and yes the game should be balanced around the very top level, but I dont think it's that easy blizzard wants equal race distribution but that already isn't the case with protoss dominating the ladder, so what can they do? I'm not sure. This is kind of why we are having these discussions, to put out ideas. I don't think Blizzard is experimenting as much as they should be. Protoss needs better defense which is why I am in favor of KA since it adds better defense to 4th and 5th bases, but so does Zerg (need better defense) against some Protoss/Terran all ins. I, for one, am in favor of the spine crawler having a shorter burrow time, such as 8 or 9 seconds instead of 12, since I think it will help Zergs defend some of the earlier pushes better. But I don't actually know how that will affect the matchup so maybe that isn't a good solution, and maybe KA will wreck the lower leagues like you said. The thing is, a lot of the changes made over the last year have shifted the game to such a point that bringing something back is not necessarily going to wreck the game. KA might be just as bad now as it was before it was removed. But maybe with the longer warpgate research and shorter pylon radius, it won't be as bad. It's impossible to know until pros play it, and until the lower leagues play it. So since according to Blizzard the game is mostly balanced, why not test out some of the things they removed in the PTR to see how the PTR players deal with them, and see if they ruin match ups or they add more choices. I don't see why I should be satisfied with the way the game currently is when these things can be tested out. Just because it goes on the PTR does not mean it has to be reintroduced to the ladder. The PTR should be for testing, regardless of whether it goes back into the game for real. But here's another problem, you would give protoss and zerg a bonus, but terran gets nothing. Yes this would really help pro players, but the core problem for blizzard and all of us non pro-players is the race distribution on the ladder. It will just make things worse in the regard, Blizzard doesn't want that, they want to have all races equally distributed on the ladder, if you now give the already underrepresented and statistically worst ladder race (terran) nothing and the two stronger ladder races even more tools to work with. This doesn't solve the problem, it makes it even worse, the numbers are already very significant, I think there are only around 9000 terran players in GM and M worldwide but 14000 protoss and 14000 zerg players. Significant really. Terran also has least average points in their leagues. Terran really struggle on the ladder and now think for a second about how we terrans feel. we see the best of the best winning and winning but we don't have the micro and multitasking to do what they do so we lose and then there is protoss who require less micro and multitasking and are alot stronger on the ladder, yet our race is getting nerfed.... are you really surprised that more and more terrans are quiting the game? yes it is a skill problem, but what's our motivation to get better when our race always gets nerfed and we lose to players that we feel like aren't any better than we are, just picked the 'easier' ladder race? You have to understand both sides. I can understand the protoss side, but it is so annoying to get flamed by someone on the ladder who is playing a race that is much more succesful than my own race (on the ladder) it's just irrational.
I don't necessarily disagree, I just don't see a solution. You can't balance for everyone, and Terran in the mid leagues depends very much on micro and multitasking. That is kind of the design of the race, and there doesn't seem to be a way to fix that. It's never going to make everyone happy.
And I know it sucks getting flamed. It's the worst, but what can you do if the other person is a jerk? I was just trying to point out that the jerks on the ladder do not represent the Protoss on TL. Some of us try to whine with some class.
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Someday Terran win rate will drop below the other two races.
And on that day angels will sing from the heavens, and all will be well in the world.
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I feel like the author and maker of the graph have made a misleading y-axis on the graph on purpose. I was amazed at the beginning but I have a niggling feeling that the graph was left to look like this to make protoss look extra weak and I wonder why.
I know this have been said before but its worth saying again: Zerg was in a terrible position at the first quarter of this year but the players adapted and changed up their play, I dont think the balance patches made that big of a difference. Now on the other hand, I've been watching competative protoss players play the same way for months without much change in strategy or game play. A lot of 2 base and failed timing attacks... and it basically demonstrates what the graph is saying, it works 4/10 times.... I really think protoss needs some new blood to help them get out of the slump, I dont feel like there is a need for any balance changes atm (with the exception of mule cd)
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On November 07 2011 09:00 flowSthead wrote:Show nested quote +On November 07 2011 08:51 doko100 wrote:On November 07 2011 08:42 flowSthead wrote:On November 07 2011 08:31 doko100 wrote:On November 07 2011 08:24 flowSthead wrote:On November 07 2011 08:15 doko100 wrote:On November 07 2011 08:06 flowSthead wrote:On November 07 2011 07:59 doko100 wrote:On November 07 2011 07:43 Elthreann wrote:On November 07 2011 07:27 kofman wrote:
[quote]
Lol, ZvT is the most balanced MU in the game! It's funny how zergs just have to find something to whine about.
IMO the Terran imbalance mostly comes from: a) the variety of strats Terran can do while hiding it, because they can deny scouting, building an all-in or expanding. I still find Terran all-ins are the hardest to deal with because you hardly know they are coming b) Terran can easily scout for all-ins and have the best "generic opening" IMO. I find the 1 rax FE is not only very good economic opening, but can defend against anything with help of the scan as scout. So IMO Terran just have the advantage of in-base expand therefore hiding their strat, and always are able to scout, therefore can defend the incoming all in Anyone agree? No terran really uses scans early game. It doesn't help you in scouting all-ins really, if the P or Z simply hide units or proxy their buildings congratulations you just wasted 240 minerals on nothing. not even pro terrans scan early game, first scans are mainly early midgame or late-earlgame, because it's so hard to scout proxy gates and zerg all in is very hard to scout aswell because they can mass units so quickly, if a zerg decides to 2 base all-in there is very little you can do to scout that, in fact I think it's definitely easier to scout for protoss vs midgame zerg than it is for T, T has to hope for a "money" scan, you have to be very lucky with scans, you don't know where your opponent builds his stuff so once you have scanned you are completely in the dark again, unlike protoss who can use observers to constantly scout the opponent, altough they have to be very careful. I still think that more protoss players should proxy gateways anywhere on the map, like on taldarim in some corner on the outside bases, it makes it pretty much impossible for the terran to scout and gives him no information when he scans, theres no reason not to, the chances to lose them are less than 0,1% and the benefit is denying information which is crucial in sc2., also protoss players should start to build their tech buildings at different spots in their base, most P players have a base layout so that you can scan everything with 1 scan, you can maximize this to at least 2 scans on some maps even 3. but right now P players dont really think about this too much, they make it kind of easy for the terrans to scout their tech with just 1 scan Or Terrans can use their super fast hellions to scout like they have been doing the past few months. I haven't seen many Terrans surprised by an all-in since hellions became more popular. You get to scout and do damage! Neat! And the reason most Protoss players have a base layout close to their Nexus is because Terran drops are so harsh to Protoss buildings and because Protoss is the only race that can have its buildings unpowered. Too many times important tech has been lost or an important upgrade to a drop, so Protoss players have adapted by making it easier to defend. I find it hilarious how you think you know more than Protoss pros and they need you to tell them to space out their buildings because it takes more scans. As if they hadn't thought of it and perhaps had better reasons for not doing it. Great job. You should be a coach. Hellion openings require fast factory tech, you mostly play this in conjunction with the 1/1/1 build or a banshee build. if you use early hellions you can't use 1rax fe or 2 rax fe and if the protoss goes nexus first... well you are in trouble, or even if he 1 gate expands and then goes for robo, I don't see much you can do then. And the risk of a drop is there, so you obviously can't have everything spread out.... but you can build the twilight council behind your mineral line or the templar archives, it makes it harder for the terran to scan and you can't really tell me that base layouts are optimized at this point in time, there are a lot of small things T and P players can improve on in that regard, even pro players. On November 07 2011 07:55 flowSthead wrote:On November 07 2011 07:31 kofman wrote:
[quote]
There is no way to decry just the flamers and balance whiners, without also decrying the entire Protoss race, because all protosses on TL are whiners. Just look at the graphic thats on the front of every GSL featured writeup. Seriously? How does this not get at least a warning? because it's true, what are you on about? this isn't nazi germany lol No, it isn't true. Not all Protoss are going around complaining, it is a vocal minority, or at most a vocal plurality. At the very least, it isn't "the entire Protoss race", that is just a hasty generalization and poor logic. That is also why I asked for a warning because it is not helping the discussion by having people like you going around saying the entire Protoss race is whining. It's not constructive. Well, I'm sorry, but there is so much protoss whine, even you are whining to some extent, you think protoss is the weakest race, fine no problem. but you base this on stats based on the highest level of play and make it sound like it affects your level of play aswell and so do most protoss players, they blame imbalance, flame T and Z players on the ladder and are getting really annoying recently, I didn't make the experience that it's only a handful of protoss player. I get flamed pretty much every second game against P or they just dont GG anymore, hardly ever do I get a protoss player that GGs or doesn't flame me and some other Z and Ts I've been talking to made the same experience, it's pathetic to think that protoss is weak on the ladder, they are the most succesful ladder race for quite some time now, with the most players in GM and M and most average points, there is NO NEED for non pro toss players to complain, it's irrational. I never said Protoss is the weakest race. Protoss has some of the strongest all ins in the games, some of the best timings, and some of the best cheeses. I think that is the reason that these winrates are not worse. I think Protoss is the weakest macro race, definitely, which is my problem with the way it is currently balanced. I also want to watch great games from equally skilled players where both players go macro games. You are right, it doesn't affect me and I never said it did in my play. But it does affect my viewing experience of the game since I watch the pros play. I want more Protoss macro games, and it is difficult to see because of the way the race is designed. Yes but this is the essential problem and you are 100% right. It's race design. Protoss is the best ladder race, to a point where some master terran (myself included) hate the matchup really, this is reflected by statistics. But it's possibly also the worst race in pro play. And yes you should balance the game around pro play, I agree, BUT you also need to keep an eye on casual play (everything below GM), in a well designed game, all races would be equally strong at all levels of play, but that is simply not the case. So if protoss gets buffed alot more yes it might help or will help pro-play, but at the same time you have to consider that protoss already is the strongest ladder race even in GM and M, so if they buff protoss even more they run risk that more and more zerg and especially terran players quite the game or simply switch to toss and that is not in the interest of blizzard. terran is already the least played race in GM and M by miles, it's not even close, and yes the game should be balanced around the very top level, but I dont think it's that easy blizzard wants equal race distribution but that already isn't the case with protoss dominating the ladder, so what can they do? I'm not sure. This is kind of why we are having these discussions, to put out ideas. I don't think Blizzard is experimenting as much as they should be. Protoss needs better defense which is why I am in favor of KA since it adds better defense to 4th and 5th bases, but so does Zerg (need better defense) against some Protoss/Terran all ins. I, for one, am in favor of the spine crawler having a shorter burrow time, such as 8 or 9 seconds instead of 12, since I think it will help Zergs defend some of the earlier pushes better. But I don't actually know how that will affect the matchup so maybe that isn't a good solution, and maybe KA will wreck the lower leagues like you said. The thing is, a lot of the changes made over the last year have shifted the game to such a point that bringing something back is not necessarily going to wreck the game. KA might be just as bad now as it was before it was removed. But maybe with the longer warpgate research and shorter pylon radius, it won't be as bad. It's impossible to know until pros play it, and until the lower leagues play it. So since according to Blizzard the game is mostly balanced, why not test out some of the things they removed in the PTR to see how the PTR players deal with them, and see if they ruin match ups or they add more choices. I don't see why I should be satisfied with the way the game currently is when these things can be tested out. Just because it goes on the PTR does not mean it has to be reintroduced to the ladder. The PTR should be for testing, regardless of whether it goes back into the game for real. But here's another problem, you would give protoss and zerg a bonus, but terran gets nothing. Yes this would really help pro players, but the core problem for blizzard and all of us non pro-players is the race distribution on the ladder. It will just make things worse in the regard, Blizzard doesn't want that, they want to have all races equally distributed on the ladder, if you now give the already underrepresented and statistically worst ladder race (terran) nothing and the two stronger ladder races even more tools to work with. This doesn't solve the problem, it makes it even worse, the numbers are already very significant, I think there are only around 9000 terran players in GM and M worldwide but 14000 protoss and 14000 zerg players. Significant really. Terran also has least average points in their leagues. Terran really struggle on the ladder and now think for a second about how we terrans feel. we see the best of the best winning and winning but we don't have the micro and multitasking to do what they do so we lose and then there is protoss who require less micro and multitasking and are alot stronger on the ladder, yet our race is getting nerfed.... are you really surprised that more and more terrans are quiting the game? yes it is a skill problem, but what's our motivation to get better when our race always gets nerfed and we lose to players that we feel like aren't any better than we are, just picked the 'easier' ladder race? You have to understand both sides. I can understand the protoss side, but it is so annoying to get flamed by someone on the ladder who is playing a race that is much more succesful than my own race (on the ladder) it's just irrational. I don't necessarily disagree, I just don't see a solution. You can't balance for everyone, and Terran in the mid leagues depends very much on micro and multitasking. That is kind of the design of the race, and there doesn't seem to be a way to fix that. It's never going to make everyone happy. And I know it sucks getting flamed. It's the worst, but what can you do if the other person is a jerk? I was just trying to point out that the jerks on the ladder do not represent the Protoss on TL. Some of us try to whine with some class.
Yeah I have high hopes in HotS, I just hope they balance it out a little for all levels of play, so that all races can be equally strong for everyone, because right now it seems like nobody wants to play terran at casual level and nobody wants to play protoss at pro level, which is quite catastrophic for an RTS game like SC2, it means less variety in matchups (I heard some people on the ladder complain that terran seems almost extinct atm), less new talent or at least not enough new talent from specific races, etc... we also need to think of the future.
I can really understand that Blizzard don't want to nerf terran anymore, the ladder stats make it kind of though for them to do so, I cant imagine them wanting to lose even more terrans.
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On November 07 2011 09:04 Pipeline wrote:
I feel like the author and maker of the graph have made a misleading y-axis on the graph on purpose. I was amazed at the beginning but I have a niggling feeling that the graph was left to look like this to make protoss look extra weak and I wonder why.
I know this have been said before but its worth saying again: Zerg was in a terrible position at the first quarter of this year but the players adapted and changed up their play, I dont think the balance patches made that big of a difference. Now on the other hand, I've been watching competative protoss players play the same way for months without much change in strategy or game play. A lot of 2 base and failed timing attacks... and it basically demonstrates what the graph is saying, it works 4/10 times.... I really think protoss needs some new blood to help them get out of the slump, I dont feel like there is a need for any balance changes atm (with the exception of mule cd)
So the fungal growth change didn't make a huge difference? And the spore crawler change didn't help to stop banshee and void ray harass? Sure, there was definitely innovative Zerg play (hello baneling drops), but let's not forget that there were some key patches.
And I definitely agree that innovative Protoss play is needed, but I imagine it will come after Protoss has also had some nice patches in their favor. Which one has more effect is as difficult to figure out as with Zergs.
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