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On November 07 2011 09:24 Silidons wrote:Show nested quote +On November 07 2011 09:22 aksfjh wrote:On November 07 2011 09:16 Dfgj wrote:On November 07 2011 09:07 Poopi wrote:
I don' understand the PvT winrates. TvP is almost unwinnable on ladder :/ Yeah your individual experience sure is evidence! Maybe you have a weak matchup? Here, I'll counter: I once lost a PvP to a mid-master player, swapped to T, and beat him with my offrace. Clearly P sucks and T ownz! Except there are a lot of Terran players who have a very hard time with Protoss. If you look around on TL a bit, you'll see this is a common sentiment. Of course, you probably don't care about this point since it goes against your bias. Either way though, TvP has never really been the bane of Protoss anyways. PvZ looks a lot more one sided, but all we hear is T should be nerfed... I'm sure the silver and platinum terrans that have a hard time against a given race is good indicator of what imbalances are when comparing to professional players who do this for their job.
It's in Masters aswell, stop being so ignorant and read the rest of the thread. Terrans never complain, but if one of them ever does he gets flamed, fantastic.
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Switzerland2892 Posts
On November 07 2011 09:21 iamke55 wrote:Show nested quote +On November 07 2011 09:04 Pipeline wrote:
I feel like the author and maker of the graph have made a misleading y-axis on the graph on purpose. I was amazed at the beginning but I have a niggling feeling that the graph was left to look like this to make protoss look extra weak and I wonder why.
I know this have been said before but its worth saying again: Zerg was in a terrible position at the first quarter of this year but the players adapted and changed up their play, I dont think the balance patches made that big of a difference. Now on the other hand, I've been watching competative protoss players play the same way for months without much change in strategy or game play. A lot of 2 base and failed timing attacks... and it basically demonstrates what the graph is saying, it works 4/10 times.... I really think protoss needs some new blood to help them get out of the slump, I dont feel like there is a need for any balance changes atm (with the exception of mule cd) Protoss has been innovating the most of any race. Look how the PvT macro game has evolved from fast colossus builds to forges and gateways, then to templar builds, then to chargelot archon, and recently to double forge builds. Meanwhile Terrans have been using the same TvP strategy since release and it's still viable: 1 rax FE into 3 rax, tech to reactor medivacs and +1, add 4th and 5th barracks while taking a third, armory and 2nd ebay, tech ghosts and add more barracks on 3 bases. Occasionally they get ghosts before medivacs. MC literally does a new opening in every PvZ played in a Korean tournament while Zergs are doing the same old fast 3rd base into mass roach 1a.
You summarized exactly what I think in one paragraph, well done.
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On November 07 2011 09:25 doko100 wrote:Show nested quote +On November 07 2011 09:24 Silidons wrote:On November 07 2011 09:22 aksfjh wrote:On November 07 2011 09:16 Dfgj wrote:On November 07 2011 09:07 Poopi wrote:
I don' understand the PvT winrates. TvP is almost unwinnable on ladder :/ Yeah your individual experience sure is evidence! Maybe you have a weak matchup? Here, I'll counter: I once lost a PvP to a mid-master player, swapped to T, and beat him with my offrace. Clearly P sucks and T ownz! Except there are a lot of Terran players who have a very hard time with Protoss. If you look around on TL a bit, you'll see this is a common sentiment. Of course, you probably don't care about this point since it goes against your bias. Either way though, TvP has never really been the bane of Protoss anyways. PvZ looks a lot more one sided, but all we hear is T should be nerfed... I'm sure the silver and platinum terrans that have a hard time against a given race is good indicator of what imbalances are when comparing to professional players who do this for their job. It's in Masters aswell, stop being so ignorant and read the rest of the thread. Terrans never complain, but if one of them ever does he gets flamed, fantastic.
You tell me to stop being so ignorant and then say terrans never complain. Maybe why pretty much every single pro terran never complains is that if you look at the fucking graph you can see that they have no reason to complain?
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TvP was not only apparently balanced, but also a lot more interesting and fun with Khaydarin Amulet. The EMP vs Storm battles were just awesome. That's the stuff people want to see in pro games, micro based battles, crazy multitasking and big explosions. Nowadays P has to pretty much outmicro T to get even a couple of good storms off while almost every big battle is an EMP shower. I can't even remember any recent pro games where P managed to not get blanket EMP'd by T in the late game when there were lots of ghosts out.
I don't know how they're going to make it, but the ratio of successful EMPs to successful Storms cannot be 10:1. It has to be a lot closer to 1:1 for the game to look interesting.
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On November 07 2011 09:29 Silidons wrote:Show nested quote +On November 07 2011 09:25 doko100 wrote:On November 07 2011 09:24 Silidons wrote:On November 07 2011 09:22 aksfjh wrote:On November 07 2011 09:16 Dfgj wrote:On November 07 2011 09:07 Poopi wrote:
I don' understand the PvT winrates. TvP is almost unwinnable on ladder :/ Yeah your individual experience sure is evidence! Maybe you have a weak matchup? Here, I'll counter: I once lost a PvP to a mid-master player, swapped to T, and beat him with my offrace. Clearly P sucks and T ownz! Except there are a lot of Terran players who have a very hard time with Protoss. If you look around on TL a bit, you'll see this is a common sentiment. Of course, you probably don't care about this point since it goes against your bias. Either way though, TvP has never really been the bane of Protoss anyways. PvZ looks a lot more one sided, but all we hear is T should be nerfed... I'm sure the silver and platinum terrans that have a hard time against a given race is good indicator of what imbalances are when comparing to professional players who do this for their job. It's in Masters aswell, stop being so ignorant and read the rest of the thread. Terrans never complain, but if one of them ever does he gets flamed, fantastic. You tell me to stop being so ignorant and then say terrans never complain. Maybe why pretty much every single pro terran never complains is that if you look at the fucking graph you can see that they have no reason to complain?
And when you look at the ladder stats you'll see that protoss is actually dominating and you have no reason to complain either? Terran is actually the weakest race on the ladder. You would only have a right to complain about toss if you were a pro player. Are you a pro player? No? Then what is your problem? Being the dominant race on the ladder isn't good enough for you? Tell me. What do you want?
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On November 07 2011 09:18 kofman wrote:Show nested quote +On November 07 2011 08:35 flowSthead wrote:On November 07 2011 08:32 kofman wrote:On November 07 2011 08:20 flowSthead wrote:On November 07 2011 08:13 kofman wrote:On November 07 2011 08:06 flowSthead wrote:On November 07 2011 07:59 doko100 wrote:On November 07 2011 07:43 Elthreann wrote:On November 07 2011 07:27 kofman wrote:On November 07 2011 04:29 SeaSwift wrote:
[quote]
Hahaha, I love the dry wit here on TL.
Now that's all the Terran players' arguments out the way (y'know, the ones that have been raised every statistics thread since about March), now we can have a good moan about Protoss.
I think that it's fairly obvious here that ZvT is Terran favoured, and the only reason why Zerg is looking okay is because ZvP is Zerg favoured, Protoss being the bottom of the heap as expected. I just hope these statistics quell any notions about balance raised by the MLG Orlando PvP finals.
EDIT:
[quote]
For a few reasons:
1) PvT has been Terran favoured since release, which indicates it is not a problem with innovation.
2) There is a new wave of PvZ coming in, led by HerO, JYP et al, which could solve the problem, whereas PvT looks pretty stagnant
3) There are few successful Zergs in GSL etc either, so although ZvP looks more imbalanced that might be because there are now Terrans in Code S who don't deserve to be there making the winrate look more even
4) ZvT looks imbalanced in favour of Terran as well, so Z and P can rally against T together. Lol, ZvT is the most balanced MU in the game! It's funny how zergs just have to find something to whine about. IMO the Terran imbalance mostly comes from: a) the variety of strats Terran can do while hiding it, because they can deny scouting, building an all-in or expanding. I still find Terran all-ins are the hardest to deal with because you hardly know they are coming b) Terran can easily scout for all-ins and have the best "generic opening" IMO. I find the 1 rax FE is not only very good economic opening, but can defend against anything with help of the scan as scout. So IMO Terran just have the advantage of in-base expand therefore hiding their strat, and always are able to scout, therefore can defend the incoming all in Anyone agree? No terran really uses scans early game. It doesn't help you in scouting all-ins really, if the P or Z simply hide units or proxy their buildings congratulations you just wasted 240 minerals on nothing. not even pro terrans scan early game, first scans are mainly early midgame or late-earlgame, because it's so hard to scout proxy gates and zerg all in is very hard to scout aswell because they can mass units so quickly, if a zerg decides to 2 base all-in there is very little you can do to scout that, in fact I think it's definitely easier to scout for protoss vs midgame zerg than it is for T, T has to hope for a "money" scan, you have to be very lucky with scans, you don't know where your opponent builds his stuff so once you have scanned you are completely in the dark again, unlike protoss who can use observers to constantly scout the opponent, altough they have to be very careful. I still think that more protoss players should proxy gateways anywhere on the map, like on taldarim in some corner on the outside bases, it makes it pretty much impossible for the terran to scout and gives him no information when he scans, theres no reason not to, the chances to lose them are less than 0,1% and the benefit is denying information which is crucial in sc2., also protoss players should start to build their tech buildings at different spots in their base, most P players have a base layout so that you can scan everything with 1 scan, you can maximize this to at least 2 scans on some maps even 3. but right now P players dont really think about this too much, they make it kind of easy for the terrans to scout their tech with just 1 scan Or Terrans can use their super fast hellions to scout like they have been doing the past few months. I haven't seen many Terrans surprised by an all-in since hellions became more popular. You get to scout and do damage! Neat! And the reason most Protoss players have a base layout close to their Nexus is because Terran drops are so harsh to Protoss buildings and because Protoss is the only race that can have its buildings unpowered. Too many times important tech has been lost or an important upgrade to a drop, so Protoss players have adapted by making it easier to defend. I find it hilarious how you think you know more than Protoss pros and they need you to tell them to space out their buildings because it takes more scans. As if they hadn't thought of it and perhaps had better reasons for not doing it. Great job. You should be a coach. On November 07 2011 07:55 flowSthead wrote:On November 07 2011 07:31 kofman wrote:On November 07 2011 06:44 flowSthead wrote:
[quote]
Dude, that goes both ways. Maybe Protoss payers are sick and tired of being told they are just worse than their Terran/Zerg counterparts. I'm not in favor of balance whining either, but you do not just reply to balance whining. You are also replying poorly to legitimate balance ideas/complaints. It's one thing to decry the flamers and trolls, and another thing to decry the entire Protoss race.
Just look at what you wrote and think about your own bias for a second. There is no way to decry just the flamers and balance whiners, without also decrying the entire Protoss race, because all protosses on TL are whiners. Just look at the graphic thats on the front of every GSL featured writeup. Seriously? How does this not get at least a warning? because it's true, what are you on about? this isn't nazi germany lol No, it isn't true. Not all Protoss are going around complaining, it is a vocal minority, or at most a vocal plurality. At the very least, it isn't "the entire Protoss race", that is just a hasty generalization and poor logic. That is also why I asked for a warning because it is not helping the discussion by having people like you going around saying the entire Protoss race is whining. It's not constructive. What are you talking about? The roach expand build is very difficult to scout as terran, and it basically hard counters the hellion expand if you don't get a fast tank or get a bunker. If you are letting hellions into your base that roast your drones and scout your entire base, your just bad. Its not because hellions are OP. It seems to me like you think you know everything. What a hypocrite. So, replying to my statement with a post asking for a warning is constructive, right? Plenty of very talented zergs lose drones to Hellions. And building a bunker as part of a hellion expand is just playing safe (See MVP vs AnNyeong in the WCG). I also never said hellions are OP. If you read what I wrote (critical reading is hard I know), then you would see that I responded that Terran can scout what the Zerg is doing relatively easily compared with Protoss due to their fast Hellions. It doesn't make the hellions OP. Quite the contrary. It makes the Terran race very stable, something which the Protoss race lacks. The only similar unit to the Hellion is the Phoenix, but a Phoenix is a much bigger investment than a Hellion. It is not quite comparable. And replying to your statement which is "the entire Protoss race is whiners" asking for a warning is constructive, yes. See, you are not contributing to the discussion, so therefore it would be constructive to get you to contribute with actual content rather than flame baiting. And no, I do not think I know everything. If you read my post history in the KA amulet thread, I actually ask a lot of questions and post what I "think" is the case. I then try to argue using logic and examples. I also welcome to be proven wrong, but so far doko here has only been posting about how much Protoss suck and how he knows better. I don't think that makes me a hypocrite. Please point out specific examples of where I am a hypocrite, and I would gladly concede. I hate making mistakes so I will do my best to not be a hypocrite. If terran has to blindly make a bunker every time they are going hellion expand, then that means hellions can't scout easily scout whatever zerg is doing. If I deserve a warning, then you deserve a warning to. Your post wasn't any more constructive than mine. Saying "I think" before your statements doesn't mean that you don't think your right. Well I wouldn't say if it I didn't think it was correct.... Also a bunker isn't a huge investment. You can sell it back for 75% of its cost, and it keeps you safe. How does that deter the Hellions from scouting anyway? I don't understand that. You are not blindly building a bunker. You are building a bunker because if the Zerg builds quick roaches, your Hellions will be weak to it, and so you need to keep your Marines alive long enough until you get a tank out or a banshee (depending on tech route). That is called thinking ahead, not playing blindly. A bunker is quite an investment. It slows down your build a lot, and 75 minerals later on doesn't cover the cost well at all. If you allow a terran to see a roach warren building without him using a scan, you are just plain bad. There is NO way a terran should be able to scout anything in the zerg's main, unless you have no simicity, no spines, and no zerglings. Because there is no way to scout the roach warren, the bunker needs to be built blind. Its not called "thinking ahead", its playing blind. Anyways, how would you know about TvZ if your protoss? Plz, stay away from topics you don't understand.
Well a spine crawler is as much of an investment as a bunker, and then the Zerg also has to build queens. The zerglings and queens cancel out the hellions and few marines back home, so why would this put the Terran behind? I'm serious, watch MVP in his latest WCG match. A bunker does not put you behind. And the reason I am fairly confident (not entirely confident) is because I watch a lot of pro players? And just because I am a Brotoss at heart doesn't mean watching Protoss is my favorite thing to do. I prefer to watch Terrans.
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Oh dear protoss... 
we need to pick up our game, boys!! or... just give us a buff.. :3
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On November 07 2011 09:29 Silidons wrote:Show nested quote +On November 07 2011 09:25 doko100 wrote:On November 07 2011 09:24 Silidons wrote:On November 07 2011 09:22 aksfjh wrote:On November 07 2011 09:16 Dfgj wrote:On November 07 2011 09:07 Poopi wrote:
I don' understand the PvT winrates. TvP is almost unwinnable on ladder :/ Yeah your individual experience sure is evidence! Maybe you have a weak matchup? Here, I'll counter: I once lost a PvP to a mid-master player, swapped to T, and beat him with my offrace. Clearly P sucks and T ownz! Except there are a lot of Terran players who have a very hard time with Protoss. If you look around on TL a bit, you'll see this is a common sentiment. Of course, you probably don't care about this point since it goes against your bias. Either way though, TvP has never really been the bane of Protoss anyways. PvZ looks a lot more one sided, but all we hear is T should be nerfed... I'm sure the silver and platinum terrans that have a hard time against a given race is good indicator of what imbalances are when comparing to professional players who do this for their job. It's in Masters aswell, stop being so ignorant and read the rest of the thread. Terrans never complain, but if one of them ever does he gets flamed, fantastic. You tell me to stop being so ignorant and then say terrans never complain. Maybe why pretty much every single pro terran never complains is that if you look at the fucking graph you can see that they have no reason to complain?
Why are you even complaining about terran? Why don't you go cry about PvZ, just look at the graph, its a lot more imbalanced.
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doko which ladder stats are you refferring to? do you have a link to those?
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To be honest, despite recent protoss buffs, it was pretty clear to me the win rates of the race would continue to fall, and most likely get even worse (especially in PvZ imo) as players get better. The potential ceiling of protoss is just the lowest, I am quite sure any objective pro-gamer would agree to that. All these recent changes, while nice, none of them really helps their fundamental problems - I'd say the only one that truly has a strategical impact was the warp prism buff.
Its very unfortunate that this is the case because I can understand why ladder players of other races would be discontent of the constant buff/nerfs that are not in their favor. As most ladder players are so far from the ceiling, the game to them certainly doesn't seem as imbalanced as it is at the highest levels. That said, balancing should still always be from the top down, because it will eventually trickle down, ladder players a year from now are going to be so much better than they are right now. For instance master league terran/zerg players who struggle with protoss at the moment might not have any problem at all later on as overall skill level of competitive ladder players increase.
Anyways, one thing I'd really like Blizzard to test on PTR is to have sentries cost 75 gas instead of 100 - I'm just theorycrafting a bit here, but I personally believe it could bring a fundamental balance change that would really help the race which has clearly been struggling for a bit too long now at the pro levels.
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On November 07 2011 09:31 flowSthead wrote:Show nested quote +On November 07 2011 09:18 kofman wrote:On November 07 2011 08:35 flowSthead wrote:On November 07 2011 08:32 kofman wrote:On November 07 2011 08:20 flowSthead wrote:On November 07 2011 08:13 kofman wrote:On November 07 2011 08:06 flowSthead wrote:On November 07 2011 07:59 doko100 wrote:On November 07 2011 07:43 Elthreann wrote:On November 07 2011 07:27 kofman wrote:
[quote]
Lol, ZvT is the most balanced MU in the game! It's funny how zergs just have to find something to whine about.
IMO the Terran imbalance mostly comes from: a) the variety of strats Terran can do while hiding it, because they can deny scouting, building an all-in or expanding. I still find Terran all-ins are the hardest to deal with because you hardly know they are coming b) Terran can easily scout for all-ins and have the best "generic opening" IMO. I find the 1 rax FE is not only very good economic opening, but can defend against anything with help of the scan as scout. So IMO Terran just have the advantage of in-base expand therefore hiding their strat, and always are able to scout, therefore can defend the incoming all in Anyone agree? No terran really uses scans early game. It doesn't help you in scouting all-ins really, if the P or Z simply hide units or proxy their buildings congratulations you just wasted 240 minerals on nothing. not even pro terrans scan early game, first scans are mainly early midgame or late-earlgame, because it's so hard to scout proxy gates and zerg all in is very hard to scout aswell because they can mass units so quickly, if a zerg decides to 2 base all-in there is very little you can do to scout that, in fact I think it's definitely easier to scout for protoss vs midgame zerg than it is for T, T has to hope for a "money" scan, you have to be very lucky with scans, you don't know where your opponent builds his stuff so once you have scanned you are completely in the dark again, unlike protoss who can use observers to constantly scout the opponent, altough they have to be very careful. I still think that more protoss players should proxy gateways anywhere on the map, like on taldarim in some corner on the outside bases, it makes it pretty much impossible for the terran to scout and gives him no information when he scans, theres no reason not to, the chances to lose them are less than 0,1% and the benefit is denying information which is crucial in sc2., also protoss players should start to build their tech buildings at different spots in their base, most P players have a base layout so that you can scan everything with 1 scan, you can maximize this to at least 2 scans on some maps even 3. but right now P players dont really think about this too much, they make it kind of easy for the terrans to scout their tech with just 1 scan Or Terrans can use their super fast hellions to scout like they have been doing the past few months. I haven't seen many Terrans surprised by an all-in since hellions became more popular. You get to scout and do damage! Neat! And the reason most Protoss players have a base layout close to their Nexus is because Terran drops are so harsh to Protoss buildings and because Protoss is the only race that can have its buildings unpowered. Too many times important tech has been lost or an important upgrade to a drop, so Protoss players have adapted by making it easier to defend. I find it hilarious how you think you know more than Protoss pros and they need you to tell them to space out their buildings because it takes more scans. As if they hadn't thought of it and perhaps had better reasons for not doing it. Great job. You should be a coach. On November 07 2011 07:55 flowSthead wrote:On November 07 2011 07:31 kofman wrote:
[quote]
There is no way to decry just the flamers and balance whiners, without also decrying the entire Protoss race, because all protosses on TL are whiners. Just look at the graphic thats on the front of every GSL featured writeup. Seriously? How does this not get at least a warning? because it's true, what are you on about? this isn't nazi germany lol No, it isn't true. Not all Protoss are going around complaining, it is a vocal minority, or at most a vocal plurality. At the very least, it isn't "the entire Protoss race", that is just a hasty generalization and poor logic. That is also why I asked for a warning because it is not helping the discussion by having people like you going around saying the entire Protoss race is whining. It's not constructive. What are you talking about? The roach expand build is very difficult to scout as terran, and it basically hard counters the hellion expand if you don't get a fast tank or get a bunker. If you are letting hellions into your base that roast your drones and scout your entire base, your just bad. Its not because hellions are OP. It seems to me like you think you know everything. What a hypocrite. So, replying to my statement with a post asking for a warning is constructive, right? Plenty of very talented zergs lose drones to Hellions. And building a bunker as part of a hellion expand is just playing safe (See MVP vs AnNyeong in the WCG). I also never said hellions are OP. If you read what I wrote (critical reading is hard I know), then you would see that I responded that Terran can scout what the Zerg is doing relatively easily compared with Protoss due to their fast Hellions. It doesn't make the hellions OP. Quite the contrary. It makes the Terran race very stable, something which the Protoss race lacks. The only similar unit to the Hellion is the Phoenix, but a Phoenix is a much bigger investment than a Hellion. It is not quite comparable. And replying to your statement which is "the entire Protoss race is whiners" asking for a warning is constructive, yes. See, you are not contributing to the discussion, so therefore it would be constructive to get you to contribute with actual content rather than flame baiting. And no, I do not think I know everything. If you read my post history in the KA amulet thread, I actually ask a lot of questions and post what I "think" is the case. I then try to argue using logic and examples. I also welcome to be proven wrong, but so far doko here has only been posting about how much Protoss suck and how he knows better. I don't think that makes me a hypocrite. Please point out specific examples of where I am a hypocrite, and I would gladly concede. I hate making mistakes so I will do my best to not be a hypocrite. If terran has to blindly make a bunker every time they are going hellion expand, then that means hellions can't scout easily scout whatever zerg is doing. If I deserve a warning, then you deserve a warning to. Your post wasn't any more constructive than mine. Saying "I think" before your statements doesn't mean that you don't think your right. Well I wouldn't say if it I didn't think it was correct.... Also a bunker isn't a huge investment. You can sell it back for 75% of its cost, and it keeps you safe. How does that deter the Hellions from scouting anyway? I don't understand that. You are not blindly building a bunker. You are building a bunker because if the Zerg builds quick roaches, your Hellions will be weak to it, and so you need to keep your Marines alive long enough until you get a tank out or a banshee (depending on tech route). That is called thinking ahead, not playing blindly. A bunker is quite an investment. It slows down your build a lot, and 75 minerals later on doesn't cover the cost well at all. If you allow a terran to see a roach warren building without him using a scan, you are just plain bad. There is NO way a terran should be able to scout anything in the zerg's main, unless you have no simicity, no spines, and no zerglings. Because there is no way to scout the roach warren, the bunker needs to be built blind. Its not called "thinking ahead", its playing blind. Anyways, how would you know about TvZ if your protoss? Plz, stay away from topics you don't understand. Well a spine crawler is as much of an investment as a bunker, and then the Zerg also has to build queens. The zerglings and queens cancel out the hellions and few marines back home, so why would this put the Terran behind? I'm serious, watch MVP in his latest WCG match. A bunker does not put you behind. And the reason I am fairly confident (not entirely confident) is because I watch a lot of pro players? And just because I am a Brotoss at heart doesn't mean watching Protoss is my favorite thing to do. I prefer to watch Terrans.
Yes, spine crawlers and lings always need to built blind in ZvT. However, you were saying that hellions are able to scout a zerg going fast roaches, which isn't true. Even if you see the roaches as they are leaving the zerg's base, you still won't be able to build a bunker in time cause they take so damn long. So, the bunker that you have to make when going reactored hellion expand has to be built blind, or else the roaches will kill so many scv's its basically game. Yes, building a bunker isn't that much of an investment, but it slows you down nevertheless.
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On November 07 2011 09:33 Maxhster wrote:
doko which ladder stats are you refferring to? do you have a link to those?
sc2ranks
Terran has by far the least players in masters (and diamond... and platinum.... and gold... and also grandmaster), least average points and protoss on the other hand is the complete opposite. If you want to complain about protoss, then look at the stats at your level of play. I'm fairly confident that none of you are pro players and terrans are actually the ones struggling on the ladder, so the question is... who should be complaining? We terrans are not really, but should the protoss players be complaining unless they are pros? No, it's irrational.
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On November 07 2011 09:32 Greyhawk wrote:Oh dear protoss... we need to pick up our game, boys!! or... just give us a buff.. :3
I'd suggest proxy 2-gating/cannon rushing every game, but then I think Blizz would just nerf cannon/gate build time again.
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France12901 Posts
On November 07 2011 09:16 Dfgj wrote:Show nested quote +On November 07 2011 09:07 Poopi wrote:
I don' understand the PvT winrates. TvP is almost unwinnable on ladder :/ Yeah your individual experience sure is evidence! Maybe you have a weak matchup? Here, I'll counter: I once lost a PvP to a mid-master player, swapped to T, and beat him with my offrace. Clearly P sucks and T ownz!
I don't talk about me but about every terran streamer, koreans and europeans as well as eu cups
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Pretty cool that the game is so close to balance. Aside from PvZ, it looks like the game is headed toward the right direction. The Terran nerfs and Protoss buffs next patch should help even out PvT even more.
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Its really odd how sc2ranks.com shows that terran is by far the least played race, while terrans are still succeeding the most in tournaments. Maybe because terran is the hardest race to play, but with the highest skill cap?
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On November 07 2011 09:36 doko100 wrote:Show nested quote +On November 07 2011 09:33 Maxhster wrote:
doko which ladder stats are you refferring to? do you have a link to those? sc2ranks Terran has by far the least players in masters (and diamond... and platinum.... and gold... and also grandmaster), least average points and protoss on the other hand is the complete opposite. If you want to complain about protoss, then look at the stats at your level of play. I'm fairly confident that none of you are pro players and terrans are actually the ones struggling on the ladder, so the question is... who should be complaining? We terrans are not really, but should the protoss players be complaining unless they are pros? No, it's irrational.
HAHAHAH so you're not comparing stats like win rates but only how many players are in what league. that is comical my friend, comical. please do continue as you seem to be a genius.
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On November 07 2011 09:36 doko100 wrote:Show nested quote +On November 07 2011 09:33 Maxhster wrote:
doko which ladder stats are you refferring to? do you have a link to those? sc2ranks Terran has by far the least players in masters (and diamond... and platinum.... and gold... and also grandmaster), least average points and protoss on the other hand is the complete opposite. If you want to complain about protoss, then look at the stats at your level of play. I'm fairly confident that none of you are pro players and terrans are actually the ones struggling on the ladder, so the question is... who should be complaining? We terrans are not really, but should the protoss players be complaining unless they are pros? No, it's irrational.
While I agree with you and your stats, I do think these pro level stats outweigh our own ladder experiences. Like I said earlier though, PvZ has been one of the most unstable matchups for a long time. The fact that Terran gets hated on so much is beyond my understanding. Terran hasn't seen undeniable domination in any matchup since May. The ONLY sign of Terran dominance since then has been GSL Code S, which is probably more of a sign of tournament design flaw than anything else. We'll know more about that in 1-2 months when this new system takes full force.
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On November 07 2011 09:28 pPingu wrote:Show nested quote +On November 07 2011 09:21 iamke55 wrote:On November 07 2011 09:04 Pipeline wrote:
I feel like the author and maker of the graph have made a misleading y-axis on the graph on purpose. I was amazed at the beginning but I have a niggling feeling that the graph was left to look like this to make protoss look extra weak and I wonder why.
I know this have been said before but its worth saying again: Zerg was in a terrible position at the first quarter of this year but the players adapted and changed up their play, I dont think the balance patches made that big of a difference. Now on the other hand, I've been watching competative protoss players play the same way for months without much change in strategy or game play. A lot of 2 base and failed timing attacks... and it basically demonstrates what the graph is saying, it works 4/10 times.... I really think protoss needs some new blood to help them get out of the slump, I dont feel like there is a need for any balance changes atm (with the exception of mule cd) Protoss has been innovating the most of any race. Look how the PvT macro game has evolved from fast colossus builds to forges and gateways, then to templar builds, then to chargelot archon, and recently to double forge builds. Meanwhile Terrans have been using the same TvP strategy since release and it's still viable: 1 rax FE into 3 rax, tech to reactor medivacs and +1, add 4th and 5th barracks while taking a third, armory and 2nd ebay, tech ghosts and add more barracks on 3 bases. Occasionally they get ghosts before medivacs. MC literally does a new opening in every PvZ played in a Korean tournament while Zergs are doing the same old fast 3rd base into mass roach 1a. You summarized exactly what I think in one paragraph, well done.
What is being said about the builds are true. Yes terran hasn't changed much in game play at all, and yes, zergs generally go for a fast 3d. My point is, as a terran or zerg player you don't change a winning concept. Its up to the races (in this case protoss) to try and figure out a style that works well. I don't like referring to other peoples claims but I have to echo that statistics never tell the full story and that the sample size is still VERY small (800-900 games for oct 2011).
As always its very hard to look at balance with cold hearted logic. I've had my share of bans because my previous balance concerns about my own race (zerg), and personally I think its impossible to look at balance without being partial. I will say though that I do agree that the Ghost currently is a problematic unit both for zerg (snipe) and for protoss (EMP)
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