• Log InLog In
  • Register
Liquid`
Team Liquid Liquipedia
EDT 20:42
CEST 02:42
KST 09:42
  • Home
  • Forum
  • Calendar
  • Streams
  • Liquipedia
  • Features
  • Store
  • EPT
  • TL+
  • StarCraft 2
  • Brood War
  • Smash
  • Heroes
  • Counter-Strike
  • Overwatch
  • Liquibet
  • Fantasy StarCraft
  • TLPD
  • StarCraft 2
  • Brood War
  • Blogs
Forum Sidebar
Events/Features
News
Featured News
Power Rank - Esports World Cup 202561RSL Season 1 - Final Week9[ASL19] Finals Recap: Standing Tall15HomeStory Cup 27 - Info & Preview18Classic wins Code S Season 2 (2025)16
Community News
BSL Team Wars - Bonyth, Dewalt, Hawk & Sziky teams10Weekly Cups (July 14-20): Final Check-up0Esports World Cup 2025 - Brackets Revealed19Weekly Cups (July 7-13): Classic continues to roll8Team TLMC #5 - Submission re-extension4
StarCraft 2
General
The GOAT ranking of GOAT rankings The StarCraft 2 GOAT - An in-depth analysis #1: Maru - Greatest Players of All Time EWC 2025 details: $700k total prize; GSL, DH Dallas confirmed Power Rank - Esports World Cup 2025
Tourneys
Esports World Cup 2025 FEL Cracov 2025 (July 27) - $8000 live event Sparkling Tuna Cup - Weekly Open Tournament Master Swan Open (Global Bronze-Master 2) Sea Duckling Open (Global, Bronze-Diamond)
Strategy
How did i lose this ZvP, whats the proper response
Custom Maps
External Content
Mutation #239 Bad Weather Mutation # 483 Kill Bot Wars Mutation # 482 Wheel of Misfortune Mutation # 481 Fear and Lava
Brood War
General
BGH Auto Balance -> http://bghmmr.eu/ Ginuda's JaeDong Interview Series [Update] ShieldBattery: 2025 Redesign BW General Discussion Dewalt's Show Matches in China
Tourneys
[BSL20] Non-Korean Championship 4x BSL + 4x China [Megathread] Daily Proleagues CSL Xiamen International Invitational [CSLPRO] It's CSLAN Season! - Last Chance
Strategy
[G] Mineral Boosting Does 1 second matter in StarCraft? Simple Questions, Simple Answers
Other Games
General Games
Total Annihilation Server - TAForever Stormgate/Frost Giant Megathread Nintendo Switch Thread [MMORPG] Tree of Savior (Successor of Ragnarok) Path of Exile
Dota 2
Official 'what is Dota anymore' discussion
League of Legends
Heroes of the Storm
Simple Questions, Simple Answers Heroes of the Storm 2.0
Hearthstone
Heroes of StarCraft mini-set
TL Mafia
TL Mafia Community Thread Vanilla Mini Mafia
Community
General
Stop Killing Games - European Citizens Initiative Things Aren’t Peaceful in Palestine Russo-Ukrainian War Thread US Politics Mega-thread Post Pic of your Favorite Food!
Fan Clubs
INnoVation Fan Club SKT1 Classic Fan Club!
Media & Entertainment
[\m/] Heavy Metal Thread Anime Discussion Thread Movie Discussion! [Manga] One Piece Korean Music Discussion
Sports
Formula 1 Discussion 2024 - 2025 Football Thread TeamLiquid Health and Fitness Initiative For 2023 NBA General Discussion
World Cup 2022
Tech Support
Installation of Windows 10 suck at "just a moment" Computer Build, Upgrade & Buying Resource Thread
TL Community
The Automated Ban List
Blogs
Ping To Win? Pings And Their…
TrAiDoS
momentary artworks from des…
tankgirl
from making sc maps to makin…
Husyelt
StarCraft improvement
iopq
Socialism Anyone?
GreenHorizons
Eight Anniversary as a TL…
Mizenhauer
Customize Sidebar...

Website Feedback

Closed Threads



Active: 682 users

Blizzard Blog: Balance Snapshot

Forum Index > SC2 General
Post a Reply
1 2 3 4 5 26 27 28 Next All
jexxto
Profile Joined April 2011
United Kingdom284 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-09-22 16:39:06
September 22 2011 16:34 GMT
#1
Blizzard recently posted a blog with numbers regarding the current balance of the game:[image loading]


Original Post

Do you feel this is an accurate depiciton of the current state of the game? Certainly the results and representation in korea doesn't match up with these numbers.
Multi Gaming Clan http://www.riffraffclan.co.uk
Psychobabas
Profile Blog Joined March 2006
2531 Posts
September 22 2011 16:38 GMT
#2
Yes, I can see why.

In PvT for example, Terrans on low leagues struggle bigtime against protoss. But once you figure out TvP on Masters it becomes far easier. And also micro for the 1-1-1 allins of course hehehe
chadissilent
Profile Blog Joined September 2010
Canada1187 Posts
September 22 2011 16:38 GMT
#3
Nerf Fungal Growth.

User was warned for this post
Azzur
Profile Blog Joined July 2010
Australia6259 Posts
September 22 2011 16:39 GMT
#4
On September 23 2011 01:34 jexxto wrote:
Blizzard recently posted a blog with numbers regarding the current balance of the game: Original Post

Do you feel this is an accurate depiciton of the current state of the game? Certainly the results and representation in korea doesn't match up with these numbers.

I highlighted "representation in korea" because your impression of korea is the GSL. In reality, I would suggest that the balance on the korean ladders may be quite different to GSL. Elsewhere in the world, protoss have always been doing ok, this is because the defence against the gimmicky protoss style have been figured out by the koreans (but not the rest of the world yet).
MisterFred
Profile Joined October 2010
United States2033 Posts
September 22 2011 16:48 GMT
#5
Terran IMBA. Just look at the Korean numbers. Now imagine eliminating Korean masters and just going with GM. The numbers would probably get worse. Professional Terran dominance isn't a fluke. The race is just better. And I'm not exactly the easiest sell on this... I play random and Terran is my worst race, but it's still clear to me.

Lower than high masters - don't make me laugh. MMR should keep everything near 50%. Everything else is metagame shift, but honestly, who cares, all those players will have about 50% win rate and the meta game will never be constant because they aren't good enough to smooth it out.
"The victor? Not the highest scoring, nor the best strategist, nor the best tactitian. The victor was he that was closest to the Tao of FFA." -.Praetor
ch4ppi
Profile Joined July 2010
Germany802 Posts
September 22 2011 16:49 GMT
#6
On September 23 2011 01:38 chadissilent wrote:
Nerf Fungal Growth.


nice first thought, that came to my mind
QTIP.
Profile Blog Joined January 2011
United States2113 Posts
September 22 2011 16:51 GMT
#7
Nice post - thanks!
"Trash Micro but Win. Its Marin." - Min Chul
R3N
Profile Joined March 2011
740 Posts
September 22 2011 16:51 GMT
#8
PvZ 57% on both NA and EU. I thought 'toss is UP?
Andreas
Profile Blog Joined January 2011
Norway214 Posts
September 22 2011 16:52 GMT
#9
Interesting how NA and EU PvZ and TvZ winrates are so much higher than in Korea. Are Korean Zergs really that good?
lim1017
Profile Joined April 2010
Canada1278 Posts
September 22 2011 16:52 GMT
#10
the masters+ GM section has to be top Masters or w/e. Low masters should not be grouped with the GMs
Drunken.Jedi
Profile Joined June 2009
Germany446 Posts
September 22 2011 16:52 GMT
#11
Well, this doesnt really say much. Blizzard bascially gave us a bunch of numbers, but didn't explain what those numbers actually mean, except in very vague terms.

I would be very interested in how Blizzard gets those "adjusted" win percentages. As far as I can see, the only way to determine player skill accurately and objectively is to look at match results, but match results are already influenced by balance and if those numbers are based on that, they aren't useful for assessing balance.
Shewklad
Profile Joined April 2011
Sweden482 Posts
September 22 2011 16:52 GMT
#12
On September 23 2011 01:51 R3N wrote:
PvZ 57% on both NA and EU. I thought 'toss is UP?



Yes, the people on Sotg might want you to think that.
Bomber || Thorzain || Startale >< No gods, no masters.
Klipsys
Profile Blog Joined May 2010
United States1533 Posts
September 22 2011 16:53 GMT
#13
This is interesting, but it isn't a real reflection of the top top top level
Hudson Valley Progamer
Grumbels
Profile Blog Joined May 2009
Netherlands7031 Posts
September 22 2011 16:53 GMT
#14
GM is still only a small percentage of Masters+GM, I wonder how the numbers are for Korea there.
Well, now I tell you, I never seen good come o' goodness yet. Him as strikes first is my fancy; dead men don't bite; them's my views--amen, so be it.
R3N
Profile Joined March 2011
740 Posts
September 22 2011 16:54 GMT
#15
On September 23 2011 01:52 Shewklad wrote:
Show nested quote +
On September 23 2011 01:51 R3N wrote:
PvZ 57% on both NA and EU. I thought 'toss is UP?



Yes, the people on Sotg might want you to think that.


You mean Inc It's really only him xD
aristarchus
Profile Blog Joined September 2010
United States652 Posts
September 22 2011 16:54 GMT
#16
Wow, the gap in P performance between NA/EU and KR is insane. Either KR has much worse protoss players and much better zerg players or... something is fishy. My guess is that mostly it's just that there is an imbalance, but only at the very, very top of the skill spectrum. But who knows. Could just be the top players in each place (which is a pretty small set) happened to pick different races disproportionately often. There's really no way to know from the data. Anyone who thinks Blizzard has an easy job to do in balancing the game is very wrong.
eleaf
Profile Joined September 2011
526 Posts
September 22 2011 16:55 GMT
#17
This makes sense. I always feel above master league, PvZ is protoss side favored and PvT is about 50:50. (at least in NA)

Enhancer_
Profile Joined May 2011
Canada320 Posts
September 22 2011 16:55 GMT
#18
I think it's silly that they tell us that +/- 5% part and then only give us a snapshot of the balance. A graph of their numbers over time would be much more informative.

It's as if they released a specific snapshot that they felt would justify to the community the changes they made in 1.4, though the correlation isn't entirely clear.
Brotocol
Profile Joined September 2011
243 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-09-22 17:10:01
September 22 2011 16:55 GMT
#19
On September 23 2011 01:48 MisterFred wrote:
Terran IMBA. Just look at the Korean numbers. Now imagine eliminating Korean masters and just going with GM. The numbers would probably get worse. Professional Terran dominance isn't a fluke. The race is just better. And I'm not exactly the easiest sell on this... I play random and Terran is my worst race, but it's still clear to me.

Lower than high masters - don't make me laugh. MMR should keep everything near 50%. Everything else is metagame shift, but honestly, who cares, all those players will have about 50% win rate and the meta game will never be constant because they aren't good enough to smooth it out.



Well said.

I also want to point out that matchmaking makes all winrates tend toward 50%.

* The only case where this does not apply is tournaments, where matchmaking is not done algorithmically.

* The definition of balance means that, for 2 players of the same skill level, the game should be perfectly even. How do we isolate the skill level variable? We can't. But the closest we can do is make some assumptions: (1) There is less variability (lower std. deviation) in the highest tournaments and (2) The more up to date a given scene's metagame is, the more viable it is.

Thus, we really should be looking at GSL for the closest picture of balance that we can get, as it's the closest situation in terms of reflecting equal skill levels (tapering off on the high end, and thus not as highly variable as other tournaments/scenes), and metagame advancement.


PS. A common misconception of "balance for the highest levels" is that imbalance doesn't affect lower leagues. It affects any game with equal skill level players, where one has to work harder than the other to achieve the same result.

The entire "balance only affects the highest leagues" is wrong. It affects high leagues consistently, but can also happen, albeit inconsistently, at lower leagues.

Say, for instance, take 2 silver league players who are playing at skill levels 100 and 95, respectively (hypothetical values of course). Meaning that one is outplaying the other. And yet, the latter opponent wins. That is imbalance. Real life example: 1-1-1 happening at lower leagues. That is imbalanced if an inferior player beats a superior one.


Verdict: This looks like damage control, as it misrepresents these stats as "raw stats," whereas in reality, matchmaking has influenced them heavily.
"The Protoss ball of death is already too strong, so Protoss doesn't really need new units in HotS." - David Kim, Blizzcon 2011
Keula
Profile Joined August 2010
Germany157 Posts
September 22 2011 16:56 GMT
#20
So according to this Zerg struggle the most in EU and NA. Tournament results kinda showed that but I didnt think that there is such a difference between korea and the rest.
EG fan
1 2 3 4 5 26 27 28 Next All
Please log in or register to reply.
Live Events Refresh
Next event in 9h 18m
[ Submit Event ]
Live Streams
Refresh
StarCraft 2
Nina 105
Vindicta 13
Dota 2
monkeys_forever886
Counter-Strike
Fnx 2628
flusha448
Stewie2K119
Super Smash Bros
AZ_Axe144
Mew2King142
Other Games
tarik_tv19772
summit1g12044
gofns7643
shahzam297
ViBE224
C9.Mang0222
Organizations
Other Games
gamesdonequick818
StarCraft 2
Blizzard YouTube
StarCraft: Brood War
BSLTrovo
sctven
[ Show 15 non-featured ]
StarCraft 2
• Hupsaiya 80
• RyuSc2 38
• davetesta36
• AfreecaTV YouTube
• intothetv
• Kozan
• IndyKCrew
• LaughNgamezSOOP
• Migwel
• sooper7s
StarCraft: Brood War
• HerbMon 44
• BSLYoutube
• STPLYoutube
• ZZZeroYoutube
League of Legends
• Doublelift4366
Upcoming Events
CranKy Ducklings
9h 18m
BSL20 Non-Korean Champi…
13h 18m
CSO Cup
15h 18m
BSL20 Non-Korean Champi…
17h 18m
Bonyth vs Sziky
Dewalt vs Hawk
Hawk vs QiaoGege
Sziky vs Dewalt
Mihu vs Bonyth
Zhanhun vs QiaoGege
QiaoGege vs Fengzi
FEL
1d 8h
BSL20 Non-Korean Champi…
1d 13h
BSL20 Non-Korean Champi…
1d 17h
Bonyth vs Zhanhun
Dewalt vs Mihu
Hawk vs Sziky
Sziky vs QiaoGege
Mihu vs Hawk
Zhanhun vs Dewalt
Fengzi vs Bonyth
Sparkling Tuna Cup
3 days
Online Event
3 days
uThermal 2v2 Circuit
4 days
[ Show More ]
The PondCast
5 days
Replay Cast
5 days
Liquipedia Results

Completed

CSL Xiamen Invitational
Esports World Cup 2025
Murky Cup #2

Ongoing

Copa Latinoamericana 4
Jiahua Invitational
BSL20 Non-Korean Championship
CSLPRO Last Chance 2025
CC Div. A S7
Underdog Cup #2
IEM Cologne 2025
FISSURE Playground #1
BLAST.tv Austin Major 2025
ESL Impact League Season 7
IEM Dallas 2025
PGL Astana 2025
Asian Champions League '25

Upcoming

ASL Season 20: Qualifier #1
ASL Season 20: Qualifier #2
ASL Season 20
CSLPRO Chat StarLAN 3
BSL Season 21
RSL Revival: Season 2
Maestros of the Game
SEL Season 2 Championship
uThermal 2v2 Main Event
FEL Cracov 2025
HCC Europe
ESL Pro League S22
StarSeries Fall 2025
FISSURE Playground #2
BLAST Open Fall 2025
BLAST Open Fall Qual
Esports World Cup 2025
BLAST Bounty Fall 2025
BLAST Bounty Fall Qual
TLPD

1. ByuN
2. TY
3. Dark
4. Solar
5. Stats
6. Nerchio
7. sOs
8. soO
9. INnoVation
10. Elazer
1. Rain
2. Flash
3. EffOrt
4. Last
5. Bisu
6. Soulkey
7. Mini
8. Sharp
Sidebar Settings...

Advertising | Privacy Policy | Terms Of Use | Contact Us

Original banner artwork: Jim Warren
The contents of this webpage are copyright © 2025 TLnet. All Rights Reserved.