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Blizzard Blog: Balance Snapshot - Page 28

Forum Index > SC2 General
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Prev 1 26 27 28 All
figq
Profile Blog Joined May 2010
12519 Posts
September 29 2011 22:01 GMT
#541
On September 26 2011 14:58 wattabeast wrote:
Show nested quote +
On September 26 2011 14:08 chocolatebunny wrote:
and remembers guys. mirror matchups are always 50% win and 50% loss.
so the game must be balanced.

What about ties? :C
Ties are by nature imbalanced, Blizzard can't do much about it.
If you stand next to my head, you can hear the ocean. - Day[9]
worldsnap
Profile Joined November 2010
Canada222 Posts
September 29 2011 22:07 GMT
#542
On September 26 2011 13:52 ScottChen wrote:
Show nested quote +
On September 25 2011 00:20 Sumadin wrote:
On September 24 2011 20:03 Madkipz wrote:
On September 24 2011 16:32 Sumadin wrote:
On September 24 2011 09:31 b0t wrote:
The purpose of this blog post is to convince the community SC2 currently is balanced. The author didn't give a f*ck if PvT is really balanced, he just picked numbers in a way to make it look so.

"There are lies, damn lies and statistics."


So Blizzard only tells the truth when the truth fits your version of the game?

Serriolsly i am tired of people trying to deny facts everytime blizzard posts some, or try to claim that blizzard couldn't make data out of their own statestics because"Technically the MMR makes all go closer to 50%".


if they were telling the truth would it not be more thorough?

A map based statistic for instance?


Well the topic for the blog was to focus on overall race balance not the balance for individual maps.

It is safe to assume through that most of them are within the margin of 60:40 for all races. History has also shown us that blizzard does care for map balance aswell. Jungle basin was removed from ladder mid-season because it grossly favored terran beyond what was acceptable.


I am not so sure blizzard really cares about map balance. How long had Delta Quadrant existed in the ladder map pools? It's a super favored terran map.


In fact, they have explicitly stated that they aren't trying to balance each and every map, that they want a variety of maps, and that tournaments should feel free (and are encouraged to) make their own maps that are more "balanced".
worldsnap
Profile Joined November 2010
Canada222 Posts
September 29 2011 22:08 GMT
#543
On September 26 2011 14:06 hobosrus wrote:
these numbers dont mean anything doesnt blizzard know that it matches people so that their winrate is constantly 50% so if a person's race is imbalanced he will be playing people who are better than him and make his winrate 50% and the game will say that he is evenly matched with these people even if it could just be a racial imbalance.


That's why they are "Adjusted" win rates, it says so in their post, and they've talked about this before. They have taken your worry into account already.
Perscienter
Profile Joined June 2010
957 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-09-29 22:52:36
September 29 2011 22:24 GMT
#544
On September 30 2011 07:07 worldsnap wrote:
Show nested quote +
On September 26 2011 13:52 ScottChen wrote:
On September 25 2011 00:20 Sumadin wrote:
On September 24 2011 20:03 Madkipz wrote:
On September 24 2011 16:32 Sumadin wrote:
On September 24 2011 09:31 b0t wrote:
The purpose of this blog post is to convince the community SC2 currently is balanced. The author didn't give a f*ck if PvT is really balanced, he just picked numbers in a way to make it look so.

"There are lies, damn lies and statistics."


So Blizzard only tells the truth when the truth fits your version of the game?

Serriolsly i am tired of people trying to deny facts everytime blizzard posts some, or try to claim that blizzard couldn't make data out of their own statestics because"Technically the MMR makes all go closer to 50%".


if they were telling the truth would it not be more thorough?

A map based statistic for instance?


Well the topic for the blog was to focus on overall race balance not the balance for individual maps.

It is safe to assume through that most of them are within the margin of 60:40 for all races. History has also shown us that blizzard does care for map balance aswell. Jungle basin was removed from ladder mid-season because it grossly favored terran beyond what was acceptable.


I am not so sure blizzard really cares about map balance. How long had Delta Quadrant existed in the ladder map pools? It's a super favored terran map.


In fact, they have explicitly stated that they aren't trying to balance each and every map, that they want a variety of maps, and that tournaments should feel free (and are encouraged to) make their own maps that are more "balanced".

Well, have they fixed the map distribution system?


And if they maybe have fixed their manual (explained void ray damage stages, listed the number of attacks per type, introduced broodlings and interceptors etc.) maybe, just maybe I'll take their maths serious.
Shiori
Profile Blog Joined July 2011
3815 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-09-30 01:59:35
September 30 2011 01:57 GMT
#545
On September 30 2011 06:56 AcrossFiveJulys wrote:
Show nested quote +
On September 26 2011 14:06 hobosrus wrote:
these numbers dont mean anything doesnt blizzard know that it matches people so that their winrate is constantly 50% so if a person's race is imbalanced he will be playing people who are better than him and make his winrate 50% and the game will say that he is evenly matched with these people even if it could just be a racial imbalance.


Yeah, you're smarter than everyone with PhDs working in blizzard's matchmaking/statistics team. Apparently too smart to read their explanation of what the numbers mean.

Apparently I am smarter than them. Regardless of their moronic statistics, anything which blatantly contradicts a prima facie observation needs to be supported substantively. Not just "oh, we have this inconclusive adjusted win rate from ladder which for whatever reason combines GM and master league (yes, including low masters who are basically mid-diamonds but inactive) and it shows that stuff is balanced" while meanwhile every tournament continues to be dominated--no, every series continues to be dominated--by terrans. this is not some coincidence. not every terran win is MVP. we have random, unexceptional terrans beating far better protoss and zerg (but particularly protoss) players.

to add to that, there are no accepted, realistic, reliable, dependable responses to the ghost. even the 1-1-1, after over a month of wreaking havoc, is figured out only to the extent that protoss players have practiced the micro so hard that they can capitalize on terran mistakes. an excellently played 1-1-1 is still going to be extremely powerful and I fully maintain that it will continue to destroy protoss players of every league. blizzard's response? it's metagame. please. the 1-1-1 and ghost are far more problematic than 4gate ever was. they're up there with 5 rax reaper. why did something like 4gate get nerfed? why did the void ray get nerfed? why did KA get removed? NONE of these things were ever producing the sorts of winrates we're seeing now, and yet somehow blizzard has decided that the latter were balance issues whereas the former are simply metagame?

yeah, i think they can shove their numbers.
Shiori
Profile Blog Joined July 2011
3815 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-09-30 01:59:43
September 30 2011 01:59 GMT
#546
edit: doublepost
Slusher
Profile Blog Joined December 2010
United States19143 Posts
September 30 2011 02:43 GMT
#547
On September 30 2011 07:08 worldsnap wrote:
Show nested quote +
On September 26 2011 14:06 hobosrus wrote:
these numbers dont mean anything doesnt blizzard know that it matches people so that their winrate is constantly 50% so if a person's race is imbalanced he will be playing people who are better than him and make his winrate 50% and the game will say that he is evenly matched with these people even if it could just be a racial imbalance.


That's why they are "Adjusted" win rates, it says so in their post, and they've talked about this before. They have taken your worry into account already.


adjusted most likely means unless otherwise specified, things like obvious drops, games under 1 min and outliers (accounts with records skewed from the main pack by a large margin like an account with a 100% winrate) are removed.
Carrilord has arrived.
worldsnap
Profile Joined November 2010
Canada222 Posts
September 30 2011 03:11 GMT
#548
On September 30 2011 11:43 Slusher wrote:
Show nested quote +
On September 30 2011 07:08 worldsnap wrote:
On September 26 2011 14:06 hobosrus wrote:
these numbers dont mean anything doesnt blizzard know that it matches people so that their winrate is constantly 50% so if a person's race is imbalanced he will be playing people who are better than him and make his winrate 50% and the game will say that he is evenly matched with these people even if it could just be a racial imbalance.


That's why they are "Adjusted" win rates, it says so in their post, and they've talked about this before. They have taken your worry into account already.


adjusted most likely means unless otherwise specified, things like obvious drops, games under 1 min and outliers (accounts with records skewed from the main pack by a large margin like an account with a 100% winrate) are removed.


No, they talked about this.
http://us.battle.net/sc2/en/blog/882511
they account for player "skill", ie their MMR
worldsnap
Profile Joined November 2010
Canada222 Posts
September 30 2011 03:11 GMT
#549
On September 30 2011 10:57 Shiori wrote:
Show nested quote +
On September 30 2011 06:56 AcrossFiveJulys wrote:
On September 26 2011 14:06 hobosrus wrote:
these numbers dont mean anything doesnt blizzard know that it matches people so that their winrate is constantly 50% so if a person's race is imbalanced he will be playing people who are better than him and make his winrate 50% and the game will say that he is evenly matched with these people even if it could just be a racial imbalance.


Yeah, you're smarter than everyone with PhDs working in blizzard's matchmaking/statistics team. Apparently too smart to read their explanation of what the numbers mean.

Apparently I am smarter than them. Regardless of their moronic statistics, anything which blatantly contradicts a prima facie observation needs to be supported substantively. Not just "oh, we have this inconclusive adjusted win rate from ladder which for whatever reason combines GM and master league (yes, including low masters who are basically mid-diamonds but inactive) and it shows that stuff is balanced" while meanwhile every tournament continues to be dominated--no, every series continues to be dominated--by terrans. this is not some coincidence. not every terran win is MVP. we have random, unexceptional terrans beating far better protoss and zerg (but particularly protoss) players.

to add to that, there are no accepted, realistic, reliable, dependable responses to the ghost. even the 1-1-1, after over a month of wreaking havoc, is figured out only to the extent that protoss players have practiced the micro so hard that they can capitalize on terran mistakes. an excellently played 1-1-1 is still going to be extremely powerful and I fully maintain that it will continue to destroy protoss players of every league. blizzard's response? it's metagame. please. the 1-1-1 and ghost are far more problematic than 4gate ever was. they're up there with 5 rax reaper. why did something like 4gate get nerfed? why did the void ray get nerfed? why did KA get removed? NONE of these things were ever producing the sorts of winrates we're seeing now, and yet somehow blizzard has decided that the latter were balance issues whereas the former are simply metagame?

yeah, i think they can shove their numbers.


man you should probably calm down.
poor newb
Profile Joined April 2004
United States1879 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-09-30 03:25:39
September 30 2011 03:14 GMT
#550
those numbers have nothing to do with balance, it only shows that the match making system works well at low levels and not as well at top levels

if they really wanted to show balance they should post the numbers from code S
How do you mine minerals?
Shiori
Profile Blog Joined July 2011
3815 Posts
September 30 2011 03:24 GMT
#551
On September 30 2011 12:11 worldsnap wrote:
Show nested quote +
On September 30 2011 10:57 Shiori wrote:
On September 30 2011 06:56 AcrossFiveJulys wrote:
On September 26 2011 14:06 hobosrus wrote:
these numbers dont mean anything doesnt blizzard know that it matches people so that their winrate is constantly 50% so if a person's race is imbalanced he will be playing people who are better than him and make his winrate 50% and the game will say that he is evenly matched with these people even if it could just be a racial imbalance.


Yeah, you're smarter than everyone with PhDs working in blizzard's matchmaking/statistics team. Apparently too smart to read their explanation of what the numbers mean.

Apparently I am smarter than them. Regardless of their moronic statistics, anything which blatantly contradicts a prima facie observation needs to be supported substantively. Not just "oh, we have this inconclusive adjusted win rate from ladder which for whatever reason combines GM and master league (yes, including low masters who are basically mid-diamonds but inactive) and it shows that stuff is balanced" while meanwhile every tournament continues to be dominated--no, every series continues to be dominated--by terrans. this is not some coincidence. not every terran win is MVP. we have random, unexceptional terrans beating far better protoss and zerg (but particularly protoss) players.

to add to that, there are no accepted, realistic, reliable, dependable responses to the ghost. even the 1-1-1, after over a month of wreaking havoc, is figured out only to the extent that protoss players have practiced the micro so hard that they can capitalize on terran mistakes. an excellently played 1-1-1 is still going to be extremely powerful and I fully maintain that it will continue to destroy protoss players of every league. blizzard's response? it's metagame. please. the 1-1-1 and ghost are far more problematic than 4gate ever was. they're up there with 5 rax reaper. why did something like 4gate get nerfed? why did the void ray get nerfed? why did KA get removed? NONE of these things were ever producing the sorts of winrates we're seeing now, and yet somehow blizzard has decided that the latter were balance issues whereas the former are simply metagame?

yeah, i think they can shove their numbers.


man you should probably calm down.

i am perfectly calm, but it's frustrating to see people blindly accept blizzard's statistic when it's so detached from what we're observing in high level play.
worldsnap
Profile Joined November 2010
Canada222 Posts
September 30 2011 03:27 GMT
#552
On September 30 2011 12:24 Shiori wrote:
Show nested quote +
On September 30 2011 12:11 worldsnap wrote:
On September 30 2011 10:57 Shiori wrote:
On September 30 2011 06:56 AcrossFiveJulys wrote:
On September 26 2011 14:06 hobosrus wrote:
these numbers dont mean anything doesnt blizzard know that it matches people so that their winrate is constantly 50% so if a person's race is imbalanced he will be playing people who are better than him and make his winrate 50% and the game will say that he is evenly matched with these people even if it could just be a racial imbalance.


Yeah, you're smarter than everyone with PhDs working in blizzard's matchmaking/statistics team. Apparently too smart to read their explanation of what the numbers mean.

Apparently I am smarter than them. Regardless of their moronic statistics, anything which blatantly contradicts a prima facie observation needs to be supported substantively. Not just "oh, we have this inconclusive adjusted win rate from ladder which for whatever reason combines GM and master league (yes, including low masters who are basically mid-diamonds but inactive) and it shows that stuff is balanced" while meanwhile every tournament continues to be dominated--no, every series continues to be dominated--by terrans. this is not some coincidence. not every terran win is MVP. we have random, unexceptional terrans beating far better protoss and zerg (but particularly protoss) players.

to add to that, there are no accepted, realistic, reliable, dependable responses to the ghost. even the 1-1-1, after over a month of wreaking havoc, is figured out only to the extent that protoss players have practiced the micro so hard that they can capitalize on terran mistakes. an excellently played 1-1-1 is still going to be extremely powerful and I fully maintain that it will continue to destroy protoss players of every league. blizzard's response? it's metagame. please. the 1-1-1 and ghost are far more problematic than 4gate ever was. they're up there with 5 rax reaper. why did something like 4gate get nerfed? why did the void ray get nerfed? why did KA get removed? NONE of these things were ever producing the sorts of winrates we're seeing now, and yet somehow blizzard has decided that the latter were balance issues whereas the former are simply metagame?

yeah, i think they can shove their numbers.


man you should probably calm down.

i am perfectly calm, but it's frustrating to see people blindly accept blizzard's statistic when it's so detached from what we're observing in high level play.


it's not though. it's just detached from your preconceived notions of what's going on at high level play. it IS what's happening in masters+GM.

Now if you want to talk GSL that's a different story, but balancing a game based on 32 players is going to be susceptible to huuuuge swings of overcompensation.
Brotocol
Profile Joined September 2011
243 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-09-30 13:17:53
September 30 2011 10:31 GMT
#553
On September 30 2011 10:57 Shiori wrote:
Show nested quote +
On September 30 2011 06:56 AcrossFiveJulys wrote:
On September 26 2011 14:06 hobosrus wrote:
these numbers dont mean anything doesnt blizzard know that it matches people so that their winrate is constantly 50% so if a person's race is imbalanced he will be playing people who are better than him and make his winrate 50% and the game will say that he is evenly matched with these people even if it could just be a racial imbalance.


Yeah, you're smarter than everyone with PhDs working in blizzard's matchmaking/statistics team. Apparently too smart to read their explanation of what the numbers mean.

Apparently I am smarter than them. Regardless of their moronic statistics, anything which blatantly contradicts a prima facie observation needs to be supported substantively. Not just "oh, we have this inconclusive adjusted win rate from ladder which for whatever reason combines GM and master league (yes, including low masters who are basically mid-diamonds but inactive) and it shows that stuff is balanced" while meanwhile every tournament continues to be dominated--no, every series continues to be dominated--by terrans. this is not some coincidence. not every terran win is MVP. we have random, unexceptional terrans beating far better protoss and zerg (but particularly protoss) players.

to add to that, there are no accepted, realistic, reliable, dependable responses to the ghost. even the 1-1-1, after over a month of wreaking havoc, is figured out only to the extent that protoss players have practiced the micro so hard that they can capitalize on terran mistakes. an excellently played 1-1-1 is still going to be extremely powerful and I fully maintain that it will continue to destroy protoss players of every league. blizzard's response? it's metagame. please. the 1-1-1 and ghost are far more problematic than 4gate ever was. they're up there with 5 rax reaper. why did something like 4gate get nerfed? why did the void ray get nerfed? why did KA get removed? NONE of these things were ever producing the sorts of winrates we're seeing now, and yet somehow blizzard has decided that the latter were balance issues whereas the former are simply metagame?

yeah, i think they can shove their numbers.



Well written, and I agree with your points wholeheartedly.

I don't get how Protoss things instantly get nerfed. Nobody ever said KA was metagame, or void ray was metagame. The last patch even nerfed blink rush. Protoss is almost always on the receiving end of the nerf bat.

Blink rush? Naw man, that's gotta go NOW! Also warpgate research, because we can't have Protoss players doing any kind of early warpgate offense.

But 1-1-1? "That's metagame, man. Protoss players need to learn to deal with that." But perish the thought that anyone learn how to deal with blink rush, or void ray harrass (which aren't even as lopsided as 1-1-1 is in terms of how easy it makes it to win.)

Why the double standard?


edit: Anyone ever watch Law & Order (or any other TV courtroom drama show)?

There's a cliché scenario which plays out like so:

Prosecutor: "Mr. Defendant, have you seen the win rate statistics?"
Defense: "Objection"
Prosecutor: "Withdrawn!"

That's what Blizzard is doing here, with this so called "balance snapshot." They concede that it's inconclusive, but they're calling it a balance snapshot and then withdrawing it, by saying "well, this isn't the only consideration for balance." Talk about disingenuous.

But the perceptual damage is done. The majority has probably been swayed by these numbers.
"The Protoss ball of death is already too strong, so Protoss doesn't really need new units in HotS." - David Kim, Blizzcon 2011
bgx
Profile Joined August 2010
Poland6595 Posts
September 30 2011 10:55 GMT
#554
On September 23 2011 20:25 MilesTeg wrote:
Wow the numbers look really bad for zerg. I am almost surprised by this because zerg is stronger than it used to be. I guess not enough though.


dont misjudge ladder play is much worse for zergs than tournaments where they prepare for their opponents, you can see top zerg drop games in ladder because of many factors and it goes down the list also(master, diamond, gold ... etc), its just a characteristic of the race, there is really no cookie-cutter super safe way of play with limited scouting options (if the occurring of limited scouting option happen).
Stork[gm]
Perscienter
Profile Joined June 2010
957 Posts
September 30 2011 18:26 GMT
#555
I think the people who work at Blizzard are suffering from speciesism. They subconsciously discriminate against other species. It's that simple.
Flonomenalz
Profile Joined May 2011
Nigeria3519 Posts
September 30 2011 19:02 GMT
#556
On September 30 2011 10:57 Shiori wrote:
Show nested quote +
On September 30 2011 06:56 AcrossFiveJulys wrote:
On September 26 2011 14:06 hobosrus wrote:
these numbers dont mean anything doesnt blizzard know that it matches people so that their winrate is constantly 50% so if a person's race is imbalanced he will be playing people who are better than him and make his winrate 50% and the game will say that he is evenly matched with these people even if it could just be a racial imbalance.


Yeah, you're smarter than everyone with PhDs working in blizzard's matchmaking/statistics team. Apparently too smart to read their explanation of what the numbers mean.

Apparently I am smarter than them. Regardless of their moronic statistics, anything which blatantly contradicts a prima facie observation needs to be supported substantively. Not just "oh, we have this inconclusive adjusted win rate from ladder which for whatever reason combines GM and master league (yes, including low masters who are basically mid-diamonds but inactive) and it shows that stuff is balanced" while meanwhile every tournament continues to be dominated--no, every series continues to be dominated--by terrans. this is not some coincidence. not every terran win is MVP. we have random, unexceptional terrans beating far better protoss and zerg (but particularly protoss) players.

to add to that, there are no accepted, realistic, reliable, dependable responses to the ghost. even the 1-1-1, after over a month of wreaking havoc, is figured out only to the extent that protoss players have practiced the micro so hard that they can capitalize on terran mistakes. an excellently played 1-1-1 is still going to be extremely powerful and I fully maintain that it will continue to destroy protoss players of every league. blizzard's response? it's metagame. please. the 1-1-1 and ghost are far more problematic than 4gate ever was. they're up there with 5 rax reaper. why did something like 4gate get nerfed? why did the void ray get nerfed? why did KA get removed? NONE of these things were ever producing the sorts of winrates we're seeing now, and yet somehow blizzard has decided that the latter were balance issues whereas the former are simply metagame?

yeah, i think they can shove their numbers.

You're kind of right.

Ghost EMP range 7-8 needs to happen. And Protoss deserve KA back imo. As a Zerg player, it is pitiful to watch top level TvP. Early game? Protoss prays they don't get 1/1/1'd. Late game? Protoss hopes T doesn't make ghosts. I mean really, both Zerg and Terran get an upgrade for their spellcasters energy, why not Toss?

Aside from those OBVIOUS flaws, I think it's still too early to see how the 1/1/1 needs to be changed or whatnot. SC2 has only been out for 1-2 years or so guys...
I love crazymoving
Xapti
Profile Joined April 2010
Canada2473 Posts
September 30 2011 20:20 GMT
#557
Thank you Jaxxo for using PNG over jpg. Sometimes people use JPG for whatever dumb reasons.

Anyway... Big surprise... zergs in the hole again — particularly not surprising with the TvZ considering terran has been ahead forever in that match-up. I would be weary about saying PvT is imbalanced just because of Korea. Not to say it's not the case, but it could be just a fluke. Considering the somewhat recent and recent buffs in PvT, I wouldn't jump the gun.


Maybe these stats could be a bit better if the maps used on the ladder weren't so bad. That's the way I see it.

Aside from that, I think there should be some gameplay changes to zerg that need to be done REGARDLESS OF WIN RATE. People just complain too much about zerg's lack of casters, lack of effective micro ability, and even lack of useful or fun or tactical units. Hopefully heart of the swarm fixes this.
"Then he told me to tell you that he wouldn't piss on you if you were on fire" — "Well, you tell him that I said that I wouldn't piss on him if he was on Jeopardy!"
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