EPTBlizzard Blog: Balance Snapshot - Page 28
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figq
12519 Posts
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worldsnap
Canada222 Posts
On September 26 2011 13:52 ScottChen wrote: I am not so sure blizzard really cares about map balance. How long had Delta Quadrant existed in the ladder map pools? It's a super favored terran map. In fact, they have explicitly stated that they aren't trying to balance each and every map, that they want a variety of maps, and that tournaments should feel free (and are encouraged to) make their own maps that are more "balanced". | ||
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worldsnap
Canada222 Posts
On September 26 2011 14:06 hobosrus wrote: these numbers dont mean anything doesnt blizzard know that it matches people so that their winrate is constantly 50% so if a person's race is imbalanced he will be playing people who are better than him and make his winrate 50% and the game will say that he is evenly matched with these people even if it could just be a racial imbalance. That's why they are "Adjusted" win rates, it says so in their post, and they've talked about this before. They have taken your worry into account already. | ||
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Perscienter
957 Posts
On September 30 2011 07:07 worldsnap wrote: In fact, they have explicitly stated that they aren't trying to balance each and every map, that they want a variety of maps, and that tournaments should feel free (and are encouraged to) make their own maps that are more "balanced". Well, have they fixed the map distribution system? And if they maybe have fixed their manual (explained void ray damage stages, listed the number of attacks per type, introduced broodlings and interceptors etc.) maybe, just maybe I'll take their maths serious. | ||
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Shiori
3815 Posts
On September 30 2011 06:56 AcrossFiveJulys wrote: Yeah, you're smarter than everyone with PhDs working in blizzard's matchmaking/statistics team. Apparently too smart to read their explanation of what the numbers mean. Apparently I am smarter than them. Regardless of their moronic statistics, anything which blatantly contradicts a prima facie observation needs to be supported substantively. Not just "oh, we have this inconclusive adjusted win rate from ladder which for whatever reason combines GM and master league (yes, including low masters who are basically mid-diamonds but inactive) and it shows that stuff is balanced" while meanwhile every tournament continues to be dominated--no, every series continues to be dominated--by terrans. this is not some coincidence. not every terran win is MVP. we have random, unexceptional terrans beating far better protoss and zerg (but particularly protoss) players. to add to that, there are no accepted, realistic, reliable, dependable responses to the ghost. even the 1-1-1, after over a month of wreaking havoc, is figured out only to the extent that protoss players have practiced the micro so hard that they can capitalize on terran mistakes. an excellently played 1-1-1 is still going to be extremely powerful and I fully maintain that it will continue to destroy protoss players of every league. blizzard's response? it's metagame. please. the 1-1-1 and ghost are far more problematic than 4gate ever was. they're up there with 5 rax reaper. why did something like 4gate get nerfed? why did the void ray get nerfed? why did KA get removed? NONE of these things were ever producing the sorts of winrates we're seeing now, and yet somehow blizzard has decided that the latter were balance issues whereas the former are simply metagame? yeah, i think they can shove their numbers. | ||
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Shiori
3815 Posts
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Slusher
United States19143 Posts
On September 30 2011 07:08 worldsnap wrote: That's why they are "Adjusted" win rates, it says so in their post, and they've talked about this before. They have taken your worry into account already. adjusted most likely means unless otherwise specified, things like obvious drops, games under 1 min and outliers (accounts with records skewed from the main pack by a large margin like an account with a 100% winrate) are removed. | ||
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worldsnap
Canada222 Posts
On September 30 2011 11:43 Slusher wrote: adjusted most likely means unless otherwise specified, things like obvious drops, games under 1 min and outliers (accounts with records skewed from the main pack by a large margin like an account with a 100% winrate) are removed. No, they talked about this. http://us.battle.net/sc2/en/blog/882511 they account for player "skill", ie their MMR | ||
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worldsnap
Canada222 Posts
On September 30 2011 10:57 Shiori wrote: Apparently I am smarter than them. Regardless of their moronic statistics, anything which blatantly contradicts a prima facie observation needs to be supported substantively. Not just "oh, we have this inconclusive adjusted win rate from ladder which for whatever reason combines GM and master league (yes, including low masters who are basically mid-diamonds but inactive) and it shows that stuff is balanced" while meanwhile every tournament continues to be dominated--no, every series continues to be dominated--by terrans. this is not some coincidence. not every terran win is MVP. we have random, unexceptional terrans beating far better protoss and zerg (but particularly protoss) players. to add to that, there are no accepted, realistic, reliable, dependable responses to the ghost. even the 1-1-1, after over a month of wreaking havoc, is figured out only to the extent that protoss players have practiced the micro so hard that they can capitalize on terran mistakes. an excellently played 1-1-1 is still going to be extremely powerful and I fully maintain that it will continue to destroy protoss players of every league. blizzard's response? it's metagame. please. the 1-1-1 and ghost are far more problematic than 4gate ever was. they're up there with 5 rax reaper. why did something like 4gate get nerfed? why did the void ray get nerfed? why did KA get removed? NONE of these things were ever producing the sorts of winrates we're seeing now, and yet somehow blizzard has decided that the latter were balance issues whereas the former are simply metagame? yeah, i think they can shove their numbers. man you should probably calm down. | ||
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poor newb
United States1879 Posts
if they really wanted to show balance they should post the numbers from code S | ||
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Shiori
3815 Posts
i am perfectly calm, but it's frustrating to see people blindly accept blizzard's statistic when it's so detached from what we're observing in high level play. | ||
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worldsnap
Canada222 Posts
On September 30 2011 12:24 Shiori wrote: i am perfectly calm, but it's frustrating to see people blindly accept blizzard's statistic when it's so detached from what we're observing in high level play. it's not though. it's just detached from your preconceived notions of what's going on at high level play. it IS what's happening in masters+GM. Now if you want to talk GSL that's a different story, but balancing a game based on 32 players is going to be susceptible to huuuuge swings of overcompensation. | ||
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Brotocol
243 Posts
On September 30 2011 10:57 Shiori wrote: Apparently I am smarter than them. Regardless of their moronic statistics, anything which blatantly contradicts a prima facie observation needs to be supported substantively. Not just "oh, we have this inconclusive adjusted win rate from ladder which for whatever reason combines GM and master league (yes, including low masters who are basically mid-diamonds but inactive) and it shows that stuff is balanced" while meanwhile every tournament continues to be dominated--no, every series continues to be dominated--by terrans. this is not some coincidence. not every terran win is MVP. we have random, unexceptional terrans beating far better protoss and zerg (but particularly protoss) players. to add to that, there are no accepted, realistic, reliable, dependable responses to the ghost. even the 1-1-1, after over a month of wreaking havoc, is figured out only to the extent that protoss players have practiced the micro so hard that they can capitalize on terran mistakes. an excellently played 1-1-1 is still going to be extremely powerful and I fully maintain that it will continue to destroy protoss players of every league. blizzard's response? it's metagame. please. the 1-1-1 and ghost are far more problematic than 4gate ever was. they're up there with 5 rax reaper. why did something like 4gate get nerfed? why did the void ray get nerfed? why did KA get removed? NONE of these things were ever producing the sorts of winrates we're seeing now, and yet somehow blizzard has decided that the latter were balance issues whereas the former are simply metagame? yeah, i think they can shove their numbers. Well written, and I agree with your points wholeheartedly. I don't get how Protoss things instantly get nerfed. Nobody ever said KA was metagame, or void ray was metagame. The last patch even nerfed blink rush. Protoss is almost always on the receiving end of the nerf bat. Blink rush? Naw man, that's gotta go NOW! Also warpgate research, because we can't have Protoss players doing any kind of early warpgate offense. But 1-1-1? "That's metagame, man. Protoss players need to learn to deal with that." But perish the thought that anyone learn how to deal with blink rush, or void ray harrass (which aren't even as lopsided as 1-1-1 is in terms of how easy it makes it to win.) Why the double standard? edit: Anyone ever watch Law & Order (or any other TV courtroom drama show)? There's a cliché scenario which plays out like so: Prosecutor: "Mr. Defendant, have you seen the win rate statistics?" Defense: "Objection" Prosecutor: "Withdrawn!" That's what Blizzard is doing here, with this so called "balance snapshot." They concede that it's inconclusive, but they're calling it a balance snapshot and then withdrawing it, by saying "well, this isn't the only consideration for balance." Talk about disingenuous. But the perceptual damage is done. The majority has probably been swayed by these numbers. | ||
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bgx
Poland6595 Posts
On September 23 2011 20:25 MilesTeg wrote: Wow the numbers look really bad for zerg. I am almost surprised by this because zerg is stronger than it used to be. I guess not enough though. dont misjudge ladder play is much worse for zergs than tournaments where they prepare for their opponents, you can see top zerg drop games in ladder because of many factors and it goes down the list also(master, diamond, gold ... etc), its just a characteristic of the race, there is really no cookie-cutter super safe way of play with limited scouting options (if the occurring of limited scouting option happen). | ||
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Perscienter
957 Posts
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Flonomenalz
Nigeria3519 Posts
On September 30 2011 10:57 Shiori wrote: Apparently I am smarter than them. Regardless of their moronic statistics, anything which blatantly contradicts a prima facie observation needs to be supported substantively. Not just "oh, we have this inconclusive adjusted win rate from ladder which for whatever reason combines GM and master league (yes, including low masters who are basically mid-diamonds but inactive) and it shows that stuff is balanced" while meanwhile every tournament continues to be dominated--no, every series continues to be dominated--by terrans. this is not some coincidence. not every terran win is MVP. we have random, unexceptional terrans beating far better protoss and zerg (but particularly protoss) players. to add to that, there are no accepted, realistic, reliable, dependable responses to the ghost. even the 1-1-1, after over a month of wreaking havoc, is figured out only to the extent that protoss players have practiced the micro so hard that they can capitalize on terran mistakes. an excellently played 1-1-1 is still going to be extremely powerful and I fully maintain that it will continue to destroy protoss players of every league. blizzard's response? it's metagame. please. the 1-1-1 and ghost are far more problematic than 4gate ever was. they're up there with 5 rax reaper. why did something like 4gate get nerfed? why did the void ray get nerfed? why did KA get removed? NONE of these things were ever producing the sorts of winrates we're seeing now, and yet somehow blizzard has decided that the latter were balance issues whereas the former are simply metagame? yeah, i think they can shove their numbers. You're kind of right. Ghost EMP range 7-8 needs to happen. And Protoss deserve KA back imo. As a Zerg player, it is pitiful to watch top level TvP. Early game? Protoss prays they don't get 1/1/1'd. Late game? Protoss hopes T doesn't make ghosts. I mean really, both Zerg and Terran get an upgrade for their spellcasters energy, why not Toss? Aside from those OBVIOUS flaws, I think it's still too early to see how the 1/1/1 needs to be changed or whatnot. SC2 has only been out for 1-2 years or so guys... | ||
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Xapti
Canada2473 Posts
Anyway... Big surprise... zergs in the hole again — particularly not surprising with the TvZ considering terran has been ahead forever in that match-up. I would be weary about saying PvT is imbalanced just because of Korea. Not to say it's not the case, but it could be just a fluke. Considering the somewhat recent and recent buffs in PvT, I wouldn't jump the gun. Maybe these stats could be a bit better if the maps used on the ladder weren't so bad. That's the way I see it. Aside from that, I think there should be some gameplay changes to zerg that need to be done REGARDLESS OF WIN RATE. People just complain too much about zerg's lack of casters, lack of effective micro ability, and even lack of useful or fun or tactical units. Hopefully heart of the swarm fixes this. | ||
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