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Blizzard Blog: Balance Snapshot - Page 27

Forum Index > SC2 General
Post a Reply
Prev 1 25 26 27 28 Next All
b0t
Profile Joined July 2010
Luxembourg37 Posts
September 24 2011 00:31 GMT
#521
The purpose of this blog post is to convince the community SC2 currently is balanced. The author didn't give a f*ck if PvT is really balanced, he just picked numbers in a way to make it look so.

"There are lies, damn lies and statistics."
Wear conservative blue or white Oxford shirts
paralleluniverse
Profile Joined July 2010
4065 Posts
September 24 2011 04:04 GMT
#522
On September 24 2011 02:24 MilesTeg wrote:
Show nested quote +
On September 23 2011 21:52 paralleluniverse wrote:
On September 23 2011 21:50 MilesTeg wrote:
It hasn't really been explained actually. No one knows what they are using to measure skill, if they take another parameter... I don't see how they can calculate "clean" win percentages that get rid of the MMR effect with the data they have.

In very simple terms: If you recall conditional probability from school, they calculate the probability of winning conditional on MMR.


I could just be retarded but this doesn't make any sense to me. MMR is designed to be very volatile, winning against people with a higher MMR... only means that your MMR should be higher.

Show nested quote +
On September 23 2011 21:55 paralleluniverse wrote:
On September 23 2011 21:50 MilesTeg wrote:
It hasn't really been explained actually. No one knows what they are using to measure skill, if they take another parameter... I don't see how they can calculate "clean" win percentages that get rid of the MMR effect with the data they have.

I would also add that what they use is from the theory of Bayesian Inference, which is usually taught as a honors year math/stats course at most universities, so you won't understand the fine details of this method unless you have a university-level background in statistics.

However, it is still very possible to understand the overall "big picture" view of what they're doing.

Suppose there are 5 numbered balls in a bag.
1 - red
2 - red
3 - blue
4 - blue
5 - blue

(A) What is the probability of drawing a ball numbered 4? Clearly it's 1/5.

(B) For the balls that are blue balls, what is the probability of drawing a ball numbered 4? It's the number of balls that are both blue and numbered 4, out of the number of balls that are blue, that is 1/3.

Now replace "less than 4" with "winning" and "blue ball" with "MMR equal to, say, 3000", then (A) corresponds to simply looking at unadjusted win ratios and (B) is in principle the method that Blizzard uses.

The idea is to get the probability of drawing a ball numbered 4 when fixing the color of the ball, or in Blizzard terms, getting the probability of winning when fixing MMR, and that's done by taking the probability of both having a certain MMR and winning, divided by the probability of having that certain MMR, i.e. what we did in (B).

Please tell me if my explanation isn't clear, I do actually want people to understand this idea.


I have a university-level background in statistics, and it still doesn't make sense. I am drunk and not in the best shape to think about this stuff, but wouldn't this only work if MMR was fixed (meaning they need another way to measure skill than MMR) ? The whole point of MMR is that it's constantly readjusted depending on your result...

MMR is a random variable, and you can condition on a random variable, giving the probability of winning when MMR is fixed.

If you have a university-level understanding of statistics, this post might be more complete: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=250789&currentpage=6#113
The Final Boss
Profile Joined February 2011
United States1839 Posts
September 24 2011 04:06 GMT
#523
On September 23 2011 01:52 Andreas wrote:
Interesting how NA and EU PvZ and TvZ winrates are so much higher than in Korea. Are Korean Zergs really that good?

Have you seen players like (Z)LosirA, (Z)DRG, (Z)CoCa, or (Z)Professor Tea play? Yeah, they actually are THAT good.

But the stats are a little bit odd. Personally I think that with mechanical precision, Zerg can be super powerful, which might be why they're so strong in Korea.
Qntc.YuMe
Profile Joined January 2011
United States792 Posts
September 24 2011 05:19 GMT
#524
i always find it amazing how NA and EU win rates are similar while korea COMPLETELY differs
Dommk
Profile Joined May 2010
Australia4865 Posts
September 24 2011 05:41 GMT
#525
On September 24 2011 13:06 The Final Boss wrote:
Show nested quote +
On September 23 2011 01:52 Andreas wrote:
Interesting how NA and EU PvZ and TvZ winrates are so much higher than in Korea. Are Korean Zergs really that good?

Have you seen players like (Z)LosirA, (Z)DRG, (Z)CoCa, or (Z)Professor Tea play? Yeah, they actually are THAT good.

But the stats are a little bit odd. Personally I think that with mechanical precision, Zerg can be super powerful, which might be why they're so strong in Korea.

Those players are amazing, but these statistics are averaged over 4000+ players. Not every Zerg in Korea is NesTea or Losira, infact I doubt 99% of them are even close to being as good as they are
Sumadin
Profile Joined August 2011
Denmark588 Posts
September 24 2011 07:32 GMT
#526
On September 24 2011 09:31 b0t wrote:
The purpose of this blog post is to convince the community SC2 currently is balanced. The author didn't give a f*ck if PvT is really balanced, he just picked numbers in a way to make it look so.

"There are lies, damn lies and statistics."


So Blizzard only tells the truth when the truth fits your version of the game?

Serriolsly i am tired of people trying to deny facts everytime blizzard posts some, or try to claim that blizzard couldn't make data out of their own statestics because"Technically the MMR makes all go closer to 50%".
The basic key to beating a priest is playing a deck that is terrible.
infinity2k9
Profile Blog Joined January 2009
United Kingdom2397 Posts
September 24 2011 08:48 GMT
#527
There isn't any math to show us if it's valid or not though? It's in their interest to show it's balanced, see them not releasing any stats for individual maps or anything more detailed.
Madkipz
Profile Blog Joined February 2010
Norway1643 Posts
September 24 2011 11:03 GMT
#528
On September 24 2011 16:32 Sumadin wrote:
Show nested quote +
On September 24 2011 09:31 b0t wrote:
The purpose of this blog post is to convince the community SC2 currently is balanced. The author didn't give a f*ck if PvT is really balanced, he just picked numbers in a way to make it look so.

"There are lies, damn lies and statistics."


So Blizzard only tells the truth when the truth fits your version of the game?

Serriolsly i am tired of people trying to deny facts everytime blizzard posts some, or try to claim that blizzard couldn't make data out of their own statestics because"Technically the MMR makes all go closer to 50%".


if they were telling the truth would it not be more thorough?

A map based statistic for instance?
"Mudkip"
Sumadin
Profile Joined August 2011
Denmark588 Posts
September 24 2011 15:20 GMT
#529
On September 24 2011 20:03 Madkipz wrote:
Show nested quote +
On September 24 2011 16:32 Sumadin wrote:
On September 24 2011 09:31 b0t wrote:
The purpose of this blog post is to convince the community SC2 currently is balanced. The author didn't give a f*ck if PvT is really balanced, he just picked numbers in a way to make it look so.

"There are lies, damn lies and statistics."


So Blizzard only tells the truth when the truth fits your version of the game?

Serriolsly i am tired of people trying to deny facts everytime blizzard posts some, or try to claim that blizzard couldn't make data out of their own statestics because"Technically the MMR makes all go closer to 50%".


if they were telling the truth would it not be more thorough?

A map based statistic for instance?


Well the topic for the blog was to focus on overall race balance not the balance for individual maps.

It is safe to assume through that most of them are within the margin of 60:40 for all races. History has also shown us that blizzard does care for map balance aswell. Jungle basin was removed from ladder mid-season because it grossly favored terran beyond what was acceptable.
The basic key to beating a priest is playing a deck that is terrible.
ScottChen
Profile Joined April 2010
Taiwan29 Posts
September 26 2011 04:52 GMT
#530
On September 25 2011 00:20 Sumadin wrote:
Show nested quote +
On September 24 2011 20:03 Madkipz wrote:
On September 24 2011 16:32 Sumadin wrote:
On September 24 2011 09:31 b0t wrote:
The purpose of this blog post is to convince the community SC2 currently is balanced. The author didn't give a f*ck if PvT is really balanced, he just picked numbers in a way to make it look so.

"There are lies, damn lies and statistics."


So Blizzard only tells the truth when the truth fits your version of the game?

Serriolsly i am tired of people trying to deny facts everytime blizzard posts some, or try to claim that blizzard couldn't make data out of their own statestics because"Technically the MMR makes all go closer to 50%".


if they were telling the truth would it not be more thorough?

A map based statistic for instance?


Well the topic for the blog was to focus on overall race balance not the balance for individual maps.

It is safe to assume through that most of them are within the margin of 60:40 for all races. History has also shown us that blizzard does care for map balance aswell. Jungle basin was removed from ladder mid-season because it grossly favored terran beyond what was acceptable.


I am not so sure blizzard really cares about map balance. How long had Delta Quadrant existed in the ladder map pools? It's a super favored terran map.
hobosrus
Profile Joined June 2011
United States99 Posts
September 26 2011 05:06 GMT
#531
these numbers dont mean anything doesnt blizzard know that it matches people so that their winrate is constantly 50% so if a person's race is imbalanced he will be playing people who are better than him and make his winrate 50% and the game will say that he is evenly matched with these people even if it could just be a racial imbalance.
There is obviously a huge racial imbalance in the global starleague. Just take a look at the code s roster: Korean Korean Korean Canadian Korean...
chocolatebunny
Profile Joined September 2011
301 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-09-26 05:08:22
September 26 2011 05:08 GMT
#532
and remembers guys. mirror matchups are always 50% win and 50% loss.
so the game must be balanced.
FluidKMC
Profile Joined April 2011
United States45 Posts
September 26 2011 05:49 GMT
#533
My problem with this is that it seems to me like the matchmaking system skews these stats. Sure the winrate is close to even for a lot of the matchups but its possible that say a better terran is playing toss that arent as good as him but the balance of the game has them at the same level.
kofman
Profile Joined August 2011
Andorra698 Posts
September 26 2011 05:54 GMT
#534
On September 26 2011 13:52 ScottChen wrote:
Show nested quote +
On September 25 2011 00:20 Sumadin wrote:
On September 24 2011 20:03 Madkipz wrote:
On September 24 2011 16:32 Sumadin wrote:
On September 24 2011 09:31 b0t wrote:
The purpose of this blog post is to convince the community SC2 currently is balanced. The author didn't give a f*ck if PvT is really balanced, he just picked numbers in a way to make it look so.

"There are lies, damn lies and statistics."


So Blizzard only tells the truth when the truth fits your version of the game?

Serriolsly i am tired of people trying to deny facts everytime blizzard posts some, or try to claim that blizzard couldn't make data out of their own statestics because"Technically the MMR makes all go closer to 50%".


if they were telling the truth would it not be more thorough?

A map based statistic for instance?


Well the topic for the blog was to focus on overall race balance not the balance for individual maps.

It is safe to assume through that most of them are within the margin of 60:40 for all races. History has also shown us that blizzard does care for map balance aswell. Jungle basin was removed from ladder mid-season because it grossly favored terran beyond what was acceptable.


I am not so sure blizzard really cares about map balance. How long had Delta Quadrant existed in the ladder map pools? It's a super favored terran map.


Metalopolis was removed because it was super zerg favored (60% winrate), and taldarim is also super zerg favored (60% winrate), but they kept it.
brachester
Profile Blog Joined March 2011
Australia1786 Posts
September 26 2011 05:55 GMT
#535
On September 23 2011 01:56 Keula wrote:
So according to this Zerg struggle the most in EU and NA. Tournament results kinda showed that but I didnt think that there is such a difference between korea and the rest.

there is a big difference, Korean are much better skill wise, especially korean terran hence korean terran are dominating while foreign terran are not
I hate all this singing
wattabeast
Profile Blog Joined March 2011
United States957 Posts
September 26 2011 05:58 GMT
#536
On September 26 2011 14:08 chocolatebunny wrote:
and remembers guys. mirror matchups are always 50% win and 50% loss.
so the game must be balanced.

What about ties? :C
:O
Hetz
Profile Joined September 2010
196 Posts
September 26 2011 07:16 GMT
#537
So in other words, Zerg is the worst race by far in NA and EU and protoss is not so bad after all. Ofc Terran is still on top of the other races.

Nice stats, nothing new really.
penguinking
Profile Joined July 2011
United States23 Posts
September 29 2011 21:51 GMT
#538
so was incontrol lying during state of the game a month ago?
Stay awhile and listen.
AcrossFiveJulys
Profile Blog Joined September 2005
United States3612 Posts
September 29 2011 21:56 GMT
#539
On September 26 2011 14:06 hobosrus wrote:
these numbers dont mean anything doesnt blizzard know that it matches people so that their winrate is constantly 50% so if a person's race is imbalanced he will be playing people who are better than him and make his winrate 50% and the game will say that he is evenly matched with these people even if it could just be a racial imbalance.


Yeah, you're smarter than everyone with PhDs working in blizzard's matchmaking/statistics team. Apparently too smart to read their explanation of what the numbers mean.
Slusher
Profile Blog Joined December 2010
United States19143 Posts
September 29 2011 22:01 GMT
#540
On September 30 2011 06:56 AcrossFiveJulys wrote:
Show nested quote +
On September 26 2011 14:06 hobosrus wrote:
these numbers dont mean anything doesnt blizzard know that it matches people so that their winrate is constantly 50% so if a person's race is imbalanced he will be playing people who are better than him and make his winrate 50% and the game will say that he is evenly matched with these people even if it could just be a racial imbalance.


Yeah, you're smarter than everyone with PhDs working in blizzard's matchmaking/statistics team. Apparently too smart to read their explanation of what the numbers mean.


Pretty sure they do know they are just hoping that people don't recognize it. Hobo is correct, the MMR system will always artificially balance the game around your skill, in their own explanation they point out that sometimes a new build will create a week or two of 'imbalance' which is erased as the meta game shifts. You could just as easily say a new build will create a week or two of imbalance which is erased as the people abusing it rank up.
Carrilord has arrived.
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