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As a mid masters player, lumping my win/loss ratios with GMs and the best of the best pros is ludicrous.
I may not "suck" at this game but I'm certainly not good enough for the minor imbalance issues to greatly influence the outcome of my matches.
On a side note, try to not make statistics weigh on your opinion too heavily:
There are lies, damned lies, and statistics - Mark Twain
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On September 24 2011 00:25 Champ24 wrote: As a mid masters player, lumping my win/loss ratios with GMs and the best of the best pros is ludicrous.
I may not "suck" at this game but I'm certainly not good enough for the minor imbalance issues to greatly influence the outcome of my matches.
On a side note, try to not make statistics weigh on your opinion too heavily:
There are lies, damned lies, and statistics - Mark Twain Ladder statistics, in particular, have so many additional factors that can be making them less useful.
In other news, IMA CORSAIR!
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On September 23 2011 18:42 Jibba wrote:Show nested quote +On September 23 2011 15:40 Vindicare605 wrote:On September 23 2011 08:38 Jibba wrote:On September 23 2011 07:23 Vindicare605 wrote:On September 23 2011 07:20 Umpteen wrote: There was a very long and well-presented thread some time ago detailing the effects imbalance would have on the ladder. I can't find it, unfortunately, but here's the short version:
Take imaginary races A, B and C, and imagine we also have some magical way of knowing in advance exactly how 'skilled' all the players are so that when we place them in the ladder they are exactly where they should be (ie, where they should end up if the game were perfectly balanced). Then we let them play.
Now suppose A is inherently favoured versus B, all other matchups equal. From the start, As will win > 50% of their games, Bs will win < 50%, and Cs will win 50%. This pushes As up the ladder, and Bs down the ladder. This stabilises when the extra losses As have versus better Cs counteract the diminishing racial benefit As get facing MUCH better Bs, and the same in reverse for Bs.
At the point of stability, how does everyone feel?
If you're an average A, you win AvB more than 50% of the time. You might get the niggling feeling that you're not having to work as hard for those wins as your opponents are. You lose AvC more than 50% of the time, and you might get the feeling that you're being outplayed. If you blame imbalance, you'll think C is overpowered and B underpowered.
If you're an average B, you struggle against A, and might feel like they have an easier ride. You win BvC more than 50% of the time, and might feel like you're outplaying them. To the extent you blame imbalance, you'll think A is overpowered and C underpowered.
If you're an average C, you win more often against A's and lose more often against B's. How you feel about this is hard to say. You might feel like the extra wins and losses are justified, or you might think B is overpowered and A is weak.
In other words, everyone sees rock/paper/scissors, even though only one matchup is imbalanced.
Now suppose A is favoured against both B and C. From our initial 'perfect' situation, As will tend to rise and Bs and Cs fall, stabilising when A's inherent advantage is countered by the higher skill of the Bs and Cs he's facing.
At the point of stability, how does it feel?
Everyone wins 50% of the time. Bs and Cs might feel like they have to work harder than As, so Bs and Cs will whine a lot, while As point to their 50% win/loss ratios and say 'QQ more noobs'.
It's a similar situation if A is underpowered against B and C: everyone wins 50% of the time but As might feel like they have to work a bit harder. They'll whine a lot, and Bs and Cs will tell them to cut the QQ because the win/loss ratios are 50%.
You can also directly superimpose combinations. Say A is overpowered against B and C, but particularly so against B. What will everyone see? Paper/scissors/stone again.
Dealing with the extremes of the ladder
You might expect, if A were underpowered, that bronze leagues would be overstuffed with As. But there are good reasons why this might not manifest. Firstly, any imbalance sufficiently pronounced as to be detectable in Bronze could induce a relatively higher drop-out rate of A players, reducing the numbers in those leagues. Secondly, not all imbalances (or balances) manifest at every level of skill (eg marine splitting), softening the effect towards the bottom of the ladder.
The same reasoning applies if A is overpowered: we should not expect to see disproportionately fewer As in Bronze (more Bs and Cs might quit, and not all imbalances can manifest).
However, we should see the effects at the higher end of play. Yes, the reduction in sample size does make the 'Flash Effect' a problem for analysis at the very top level, but there ought to be a sweet spot around the GM/Master level where the numbers involved are still high enough to be significant, but where any anomalous 'buoyancy' can still be detected.
The Upshot
The existence of single-matchup imbalances can be detected statistically (via paper/scissors/stone win/loss ratios) throughout the leagues, although pinpointing which matchup is imbalanced can be tricky (the order of paper/scissors/stone narrows it down to one of three). The existence of an OP or UP race, however - I cannot see how that can be detected at low to mid levels of play, no matter what maths you apply, because it looks exactly the same as if the races were balanced: close to 50% win ratios all round.
It might sound daft, but very likely the only useful statistic for gauging balance below pro/gm/high masters is the amount of QQ coming from each race, because that exposes the sensations engendered by imbalance that are hidden by the matchmaking system.
Looking at the figures provided, it seems safest to assume that the 'truth' lies somewhere between the NA and Korean numbers - in other words, Zerg is a little too predictable and easy to blindside, Terran a little too safe, resilient and flexible (relatively speaking). PvZ domination could well be an artifact of transient PvT weakness pushing good Protosses way down, so that they do better against Zergs, but it's hard to know when Blizzard have already eliminated some factors.
In other words, no huge surprises. Even if the truth was somewhere between the Korean and NA results as you're suggesting. That still leaves it MOSTLY within the 5% ratio that Blizzard defines as acceptably balanced. No matter how you slice it, according to these stats the game is more balanced than the forum QQ would have you think. The usage of statistics for this purpose is still flawed. You can't view balance in SC2 solely through quantitative results from the ladder. I would argue almost all of their obtained results should be viewed as irrelevant. The game should be balanced at the highest level possible, and the number of players at the highest level is extremely, extremely small. I don't mean all of Code S, I mean smaller than that. On top of that, the ladder results are clouded by a relatively poor map pool that doesn't reflect competitive play, and simply the nature of playing a 1v1 ladder game is completely different than playing a 1v1 in competition. If a strategy is truly broken on Taldarim Altar TvZ, you're going to see it applied in competitive play first and most of the results on ladder won't reflect that the strategy is broken. Even among results for the MVP's and Nestea's, they way they operate on ladder is completely different because you have a random map selection, unknown opponent and unknown opponent race. Much of what they do is improvised to a certain extent, whereas in the GSL finals everything is mapped out through the early portions of the game. Not to mention these "stats" are a world of difference away from the type of useful quantitative measuring you would find in any sort of research, or even in other sports' statistical tracking such as Sabremetrics. There is always context to the numbers, and in this case they present none. I can only hope they're not relying on them too heavily. Well you're touching on exactly the problem. First off, the absolute top level is so incredibly small that it's almost impossible to use any sort of quantitative data to balance it. How then DO you balance it? Qualitatively? That's open to an incredible amount of bias. Second, if you're balancing around something other than quantitative data, you have to approach map balance in a very different way. Do you nerf a race just because of an abuse of a single map mechanic or do you adjust the map? This is the exact sort of way that Gom tries to balance its own tournament internally, which is what tournaments SHOULD do, but Blizzard's job isn't just to balance the game for tournament play but for as everyone as much as possible. Using quantitative data and methods makes the most sense. I don't really see how else you can do it. I think qualitatively is fine, but you move slowly and try to study the full effect that every change will have. Do they have the staff capable of doing it? No, not really. Blizzard should be balancing the game for tournament play, and the maps should be updated accordingly. This is all the ideal situation, of course, but instead what we have is just a mishmash of half casual, half competitive ideas and the outcome is somewhat lacking. Even if they did incorporate quantitative data, it should be more detailed than just overall data. It needs to be stuff about who wins in what minute of the game, amount of minerals/gas needed, and a bunch of other measurements. The general statistics are including a bunch of low quality games that could easily be weeded out by adding those constraints.
Well looking at the article again... Daxxari reassures us that the numbers we're seeing are not the last word on game balance nor are they the only word.
I think they chose to release the win rates specifically because that is what the community has asked for.
I still am not convinced that the entire game should be 100% balanced around tournament results; they should be taken into account where necessary and should be used as case studies to analyze what data shows but there are a ton of external factors involved in tournament play that skew the overall win rate that I don't think you should be balancing around.
1. The players are all very familiar with each other and their styles. I'm not talking familiar in the way that all of us know that Destiny likes to use Infestors, I'm talking these guys watch VOD after VOD analyzing every detail they can find of their opponent's play as they're practicing to defeat them. This isn't the sort of thing you see in the ladder. That kind of practice allows players to play a much different game than what you see on the ladder, if you're balancing the game entirely around tournament results, then you are balancing the game in large part based on the results of these very intense practice sessions.
2. Nerves to the extreme. Playing on the ladder is stressful enough, playing in front of an audience of people numbering the thousands and sometimes HUNDREDS of thousands is something else entirely. Not everyone handles that pressure equally. Do we weigh that when we look at tournament win rates? Do we just assume that all professionals are created equally when handling stressful situations? You can't. They aren't created equally in ANY sport.
3. Player skill level. Do you use MLG Anaheim as evidence of Terran imbalance? How can you when 5/6 Koreans occupying the top spot just HAPPENED to be Terran players that all came from the same team? That's just an example.
When sample sizes are small, small variants in skill level that are common on the ladder have the potential to skew the results by an enormous margin.
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I still don't understand. Isn't bnet designed to get each player 50/50 win ratio? If that's case then this figure is meaningless.
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On September 23 2011 20:10 [F_]aths wrote:Show nested quote +On September 23 2011 02:22 Liquid`Tyler wrote: I'm kind of interested why Blizzard wants us to know this. As far as I know, there's no pressure on them to release these numbers. No one is waiting on them. And no one in the community is going to use them for anything. Blizzard simply wants us to know them... why? To prove that the balance is not that bad as some guys believe.
Its not even a map based statistic. Assuming perfect balance or at the very least decent balance then you should go by maps.
These numbers are worthless information.
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On September 24 2011 00:25 Champ24 wrote: As a mid masters player, lumping my win/loss ratios with GMs and the best of the best pros is ludicrous.
I may not "suck" at this game but I'm certainly not good enough for the minor imbalance issues to greatly influence the outcome of my matches.
Exactly my point! Guess what blizzard, in my league - masters - Broodlords are great vs ghosts 80% of the time (because people are bad at chainsniping)
This stats are useless crap. First of all Masters (at least in Europe), is a game of cheeses and mistakes. Second they are about laddergames, and everyone who has seen a progamer's stream knows how seriously they take those.
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On September 23 2011 21:52 paralleluniverse wrote:Show nested quote +On September 23 2011 21:50 MilesTeg wrote: It hasn't really been explained actually. No one knows what they are using to measure skill, if they take another parameter... I don't see how they can calculate "clean" win percentages that get rid of the MMR effect with the data they have. In very simple terms: If you recall conditional probability from school, they calculate the probability of winning conditional on MMR.
I could just be retarded but this doesn't make any sense to me. MMR is designed to be very volatile, winning against people with a higher MMR... only means that your MMR should be higher.
On September 23 2011 21:55 paralleluniverse wrote:Show nested quote +On September 23 2011 21:50 MilesTeg wrote: It hasn't really been explained actually. No one knows what they are using to measure skill, if they take another parameter... I don't see how they can calculate "clean" win percentages that get rid of the MMR effect with the data they have. I would also add that what they use is from the theory of Bayesian Inference, which is usually taught as a honors year math/stats course at most universities, so you won't understand the fine details of this method unless you have a university-level background in statistics. However, it is still very possible to understand the overall "big picture" view of what they're doing. Suppose there are 5 numbered balls in a bag. 1 - red 2 - red 3 - blue 4 - blue 5 - blue (A) What is the probability of drawing a ball numbered 4? Clearly it's 1/5. (B) For the balls that are blue balls, what is the probability of drawing a ball numbered 4? It's the number of balls that are both blue and numbered 4, out of the number of balls that are blue, that is 1/3. Now replace "less than 4" with "winning" and "blue ball" with "MMR equal to, say, 3000", then (A) corresponds to simply looking at unadjusted win ratios and (B) is in principle the method that Blizzard uses. The idea is to get the probability of drawing a ball numbered 4 when fixing the color of the ball, or in Blizzard terms, getting the probability of winning when fixing MMR, and that's done by taking the probability of both having a certain MMR and winning, divided by the probability of having that certain MMR, i.e. what we did in (B). Please tell me if my explanation isn't clear, I do actually want people to understand this idea.
I have a university-level background in statistics, and it still doesn't make sense. I am drunk and not in the best shape to think about this stuff, but wouldn't this only work if MMR was fixed (meaning they need another way to measure skill than MMR) ? The whole point of MMR is that it's constantly readjusted depending on your result...
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Stats on ladder are meaningless for many reasons, not to mention they have been caught changing unit values in ladder games to help certain players win.
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On September 24 2011 02:30 Msr wrote: Stats on ladder are meaningless for many reasons, not to mention they have been caught changing unit values in ladder games to help certain players win.
Huh? Can you elaborate on this please?
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Ladder win rates are pointless for discussing balance as the ladder is designed to keep everyone at 50% win rate.
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On September 24 2011 02:30 Msr wrote: Stats on ladder are meaningless for many reasons, not to mention they have been caught changing unit values in ladder games to help certain players win.
Uh, you best back that claim up buddy.
Too bad you won't be able to, cause this thread would turn epic in no time.
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On September 24 2011 02:36 Brotocol wrote:Show nested quote +On September 24 2011 02:30 Msr wrote: Stats on ladder are meaningless for many reasons, not to mention they have been caught changing unit values in ladder games to help certain players win. Huh? Can you elaborate on this please?
Does this mean there are people so bad, they need to be playing against an opponent with a HP handicap just to be able to win? Sad...
If so, I commend the blizzard matchmaking system for being so advanced. Probably bullshit, though.
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On September 24 2011 02:40 Tantaburs wrote: Ladder win rates are pointless for discussing balance as the ladder is designed to keep everyone at 50% win rate.
I still don't understand. Isn't bnet designed to get each player 50/50 win ratio? If that's case then this figure is meaningless.
You both need to read the article. They use mathematical formulas specifically designed to account for the effects of the matchmaker.
Honestly, it's remarkable how often people will comment on something without bothering to read it.
If you don't care enough to read it, you obviously don't care enough to respond to it.
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On September 24 2011 02:24 MilesTeg wrote:Show nested quote +On September 23 2011 21:52 paralleluniverse wrote:On September 23 2011 21:50 MilesTeg wrote: It hasn't really been explained actually. No one knows what they are using to measure skill, if they take another parameter... I don't see how they can calculate "clean" win percentages that get rid of the MMR effect with the data they have. In very simple terms: If you recall conditional probability from school, they calculate the probability of winning conditional on MMR. I could just be retarded but this doesn't make any sense to me. MMR is designed to be very volatile, winning against people with a higher MMR... only means that your MMR should be higher. Show nested quote +On September 23 2011 21:55 paralleluniverse wrote:On September 23 2011 21:50 MilesTeg wrote: It hasn't really been explained actually. No one knows what they are using to measure skill, if they take another parameter... I don't see how they can calculate "clean" win percentages that get rid of the MMR effect with the data they have. I would also add that what they use is from the theory of Bayesian Inference, which is usually taught as a honors year math/stats course at most universities, so you won't understand the fine details of this method unless you have a university-level background in statistics. However, it is still very possible to understand the overall "big picture" view of what they're doing. Suppose there are 5 numbered balls in a bag. 1 - red 2 - red 3 - blue 4 - blue 5 - blue (A) What is the probability of drawing a ball numbered 4? Clearly it's 1/5. (B) For the balls that are blue balls, what is the probability of drawing a ball numbered 4? It's the number of balls that are both blue and numbered 4, out of the number of balls that are blue, that is 1/3. Now replace "less than 4" with "winning" and "blue ball" with "MMR equal to, say, 3000", then (A) corresponds to simply looking at unadjusted win ratios and (B) is in principle the method that Blizzard uses. The idea is to get the probability of drawing a ball numbered 4 when fixing the color of the ball, or in Blizzard terms, getting the probability of winning when fixing MMR, and that's done by taking the probability of both having a certain MMR and winning, divided by the probability of having that certain MMR, i.e. what we did in (B). Please tell me if my explanation isn't clear, I do actually want people to understand this idea. I have a university-level background in statistics, and it still doesn't make sense. I am drunk and not in the best shape to think about this stuff, but wouldn't this only work if MMR was fixed (meaning they need another way to measure skill than MMR) ? The whole point of MMR is that it's constantly readjusted depending on your result...
hahaha, sorry for nitpick but university level statistics background could go from:
¨I am a math major¨ ¨I have a masters in statistics¨
to
¨I took one statistics class¨ ¨I flunked out of statistics class¨
Hahaha, not trying to discredit you or anything. You might want to specify more next time
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On September 24 2011 00:25 Champ24 wrote: As a mid masters player, lumping my win/loss ratios with GMs and the best of the best pros is ludicrous.
I may not "suck" at this game but I'm certainly not good enough for the minor imbalance issues to greatly influence the outcome of my matches.
On a side note, try to not make statistics weigh on your opinion too heavily:
There are lies, damned lies, and statistics - Mark Twain I completely agree. I play masters but I just do *whatever* and I think lots of Masters players are like that. Ex-BW players who have learned mechanics but just play for fun. Like I play Mutas in all my Z match-ups and bio always as T just because I find it fun.
I think only top 30 Europe and GM Korea really matters in terms of balance. Obviously if masters league is like 65%+ in favour of one race then you need to consider why, but generally just balance for pro-gamers.
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The numbers are meaningless in TvZ - the bug fix to drone attack should go a long way towards fixing the matchup.
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+/- 5% means none of these stats are statistically significant.
Its good to have these metrics, and to measure them over time, but basic-level statistical significance starts at 3x the standard deviation.
Cool numbers. I wouldn't use them to support any arguments except maybe to speculate about the matchups across different regions.
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if 2 protoss players gets to the Ro16 of GSL, I'm going to believe that protoss is not totally broken, just a little UP in the highest level of play
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Does win percentage mean anything when matchmaking is designed to get everybody winning as close to 50% as possible?
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If you looked at the top of grandmaster in korea where the best pro players are at you would see those numbers change highly in favor of terran. So its a matter of who you include into those numbers and whether you should be or not that changes them a lot.
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