EPT[October] TLPD Race Winrate Graphs - Page 10
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hobosrus
United States99 Posts
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InFi.asc
Germany518 Posts
On November 07 2011 06:56 gillon wrote: Except, it doesn't look stupid: TvZ 52% for T, TvP 54% for T. Sounds really fucking reasonable to me. You people need to actually look at the numbers rather than how tall/short he stretched them out on the graphs. first of all: wait for the Korean version. Second of all, even if the difference is "only" 8 %, the fact that it has been 8 % one sided for so long would indicate that there is sth wrong | ||
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SC2ShoWTimE
Germany722 Posts
ye, it´s not a HUGE difference, but you cant deny the fact that protoss has been the worst race since 7 months now. | ||
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SeaSwift
Scotland4486 Posts
On November 07 2011 06:53 iky43210 wrote: you're missing the point. Chess is relevant to this discussion because Starcraft definitely has more variables and factors than a simple "first move". So because there are so many variables (which you assume are unsolvable/unpreventable), having Terran with >50% average winrate at the highest level of play over the course of the entire game in both TvP and TvZ is fine? This argument just doesn't hold with me. | ||
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Zaphid
Czech Republic1860 Posts
It's like 4gate for zerg, you have these timings that are hard to scout unless you check his whole main and they can commit at any point in time to those units, which is lethal for you. The proper response is to build like 3 extra cannons, which is not something you commit to without enough information and when that information are roaches killing your natural it's usually too late. | ||
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Deleted User 183001
2939 Posts
On November 07 2011 06:52 SeaSwift wrote: Chess is completely fucking irrelevant to Starcraft. The only reason chess is "imbalanced" with winrates is because one player has to go first. I know wikipedia isn't amazing but: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/First-move_advantage_in_chess Because there is no first turn move in Starcraft, the whole chess discussion is useless, and just the last effort for Terrans to try and disprove all the evidence laid in front of them: at the highest level of play, your race is pretty overpowered and has been for months. No need to tell him a second time. He's just trolling, or ignorant. One has to be absolutely desperate to try and form an argument if they are mentioning things completely irrelevant. Or he is just really ticked off about Terran being nerfed directly or indirectly. I mean, even Jinro as of late has been complaining how buffing Protoss is a stupid idea despite Protoss' bad showings (and is thus required), when back in February when he was more objective on the matters, he was condemning the straight-up removal of KA (which was a colossal nerf to Protoss and a big buff to TvP for Terran). Still, how many pro level games in TvP, especially in Korea, are decided by Ghost EMP (iirc, it's not a huge number, unless I wasn't watching the games closely enough as I'm often doing hw in the meantime)? Additionally, this patch has no effect on PvZ, so expect Protoss to be continue being the underdog there. I'm just looking forward to the Korean stats. While it is a bit saddening to see the state of Protoss there, it's a bit comical imo to see that Blizzard is trolling us. I mean, when there's such an obvious, glaring problem, shouldn't they figure out what's causing it? Instead, they say things like how the game is almost completely balanced. | ||
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iLike413
Canada100 Posts
On November 07 2011 05:01 freetgy wrote: the graph format is fine. Seems like the last stroke non-protoss cling onto to disagree with Protoss having very hard times since months. There is no hope anyway for protoss unless they get someway of defenders advantage that does not set back their whole Army/Tech. Meaning in WOL playing P will always be line playing on razors edge. Lets hope that in HotS Protoss will be in a better position to play straight up macrogames. HotS should definitely fix this problem, Terran --> barracks --> bunker --> ez defense Zerg ---> pool --> Spine --> ez defense Protoss --> gateway -->  but in HotS it will be Protoss ---> gateway --> Arc Shield  Similar to how spines can move around to different defensive positions, and bunkers can be salvaged and replaced in different positions, Arc shield should be able to be used in different defensive positions. I think since it is the most mobile of the three defenses, as in you can cast it on any building, its good that its only temporary. | ||
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pure_protoss
152 Posts
On November 07 2011 06:00 Daralii wrote: How are the toss winrates actually going DOWN? because terrans finally realized how strong ghosts are and they dont need to adapt at all for the moment since it works (when a ''good'' nerf will go on the ghosts or a good buff on toss will come, terran will simply start using ravens and will still have an insane win rate (all speculations however and im biased cuz im toss). However, ravens are so strong vs toss I dont understand why terrans are not using them at all... vs zerg it is because protoss found a new way to win some games vs zerg with the cool fast mothership and mass archons. I believe it went down because people are trying to figure out the best ways to play this style and to win. However, since toss is trying to go this way, zerg are just going straight to muta ling (that has always been very strong vs toss (even op according to certain topic on this forum)) or they went straight to hydra to counter which is super strong if you dont have collossi that is so far away from the tech paths we try to use these days (twilight and stargate). Also, on a side note, I strongly believe the protoss win rates would be a lot higher if our early game was not sooo weak. Because vs terran or zerg, with the 4 gate a side that everyone knows how to counter these days, we have no real way to put pressure on both terrans and zergs. Also we have no way to scout early pressure or all ins builds (aside of the first probe that gets killed so early). People might say observers but they come too late and may get you killed by stealth units rush and hallucinations comes right when you get all ined by roach ling or 2rax/3rax pressure/all in. It is insanely strong and if toss is not prepared for it we simply die. No matter the micro. However, zerg and terrans always had chance to prepare for these days and are super strong vs toss since we cant put pressure. Therefore, toss needs to cut corners to win versus them but then they all in sometimes to win and we arent prepared. Therefore, the winrates I believe would be higher if we had a better early game (just a minor buff on stalker dps or on sentries would do). | ||
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Nosferatos
Norway783 Posts
Toss needs this patch and fast, and even that might not be enough. | ||
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Deleted User 183001
2939 Posts
On November 07 2011 07:07 iLike413 wrote: HotS should definitely fix this problem, Terran --> barracks --> bunker --> ez defense Zerg ---> pool --> Spine --> ez defense Protoss --> gateway --> but in HotS it will be Protoss ---> gateway --> Arc Shield Similar to how spines can move around to different defensive positions, and bunkers can be salvaged and replaced in different positions, Arc shield should be able to be used in different defensive positions. I think since it is the most mobile of the three defenses, as in you can cast it on any building, its good that its only temporary. It's 20 seconds only, and does 5 damage to non-light, and it costs 50 energy iirc? Either way, it's a deterrence against ling assaults, assuming you're banking energy on Nexii early-mid game. They just pull back for a bit, until the Shield expires and you wasted a ton of Nexus energy. Sure, it gives you time to reorganize, but we'll see how it works out. It will certainly be useful mid-late game for ling runbys, however. What I'm more excited about is the recall ability. Protoss is based upon keeping key units alive. Once the key units (particularly Colossi, Sentry, HTs) are neutralized, the Protoss army is completely laughable and extremely cost-inefficient in mid-late game, and it's an insta-win. Recalling the army, or the remains once the big dogs are down and out, will be a huge fix for Protoss' design flaw regarding this (terribad gateway units due to Warpgate tech but powerful Tier 3). | ||
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iky43210
United States2099 Posts
On November 07 2011 07:03 SeaSwift wrote: So because there are so many variables (which you assume are unsolvable/unpreventable), having Terran with >50% average winrate at the highest level of play over the course of the entire game in both TvP and TvZ is fine? This argument just doesn't hold with me. you can show statistically significance, but it doesn't show importance. top errors of interpreting statistics. Also TLDL is taken across all tourney level, high and low. Player skill is not equal and definitely varies across high end and low end of the spectrum | ||
pPingu
Switzerland2892 Posts
On November 07 2011 07:20 iky43210 wrote: you can show statistically significance, but it doesn't show importance. top errors of interpreting statistics. Also TLDL is taken across all tourney level, high and low. Player skill is not equal and definitely varies across high end and low end of the competition If you want high level only, look code s results. | ||
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kofman
Andorra698 Posts
On November 07 2011 04:29 SeaSwift wrote: Hahaha, I love the dry wit here on TL. Now that's all the Terran players' arguments out the way (y'know, the ones that have been raised every statistics thread since about March), now we can have a good moan about Protoss. I think that it's fairly obvious here that ZvT is Terran favoured, and the only reason why Zerg is looking okay is because ZvP is Zerg favoured, Protoss being the bottom of the heap as expected. I just hope these statistics quell any notions about balance raised by the MLG Orlando PvP finals. EDIT: For a few reasons: 1) PvT has been Terran favoured since release, which indicates it is not a problem with innovation. 2) There is a new wave of PvZ coming in, led by HerO, JYP et al, which could solve the problem, whereas PvT looks pretty stagnant 3) There are few successful Zergs in GSL etc either, so although ZvP looks more imbalanced that might be because there are now Terrans in Code S who don't deserve to be there making the winrate look more even 4) ZvT looks imbalanced in favour of Terran as well, so Z and P can rally against T together. Lol, ZvT is the most balanced MU in the game! It's funny how zergs just have to find something to whine about. | ||
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iLike413
Canada100 Posts
On November 07 2011 07:18 JudicatorHammurabi wrote: It's 20 seconds only, and does 5 damage to non-light, and it costs 50 energy iirc? Either way, it's a deterrence against ling assaults, assuming you're banking energy on Nexii early-mid game. They just pull back for a bit, until the Shield expires and you wasted a ton of Nexus energy. Sure, it gives you time to reorganize, but we'll see how it works out. It will certainly be useful mid-late game for ling runbys, however. What I'm more excited about is the recall ability. Protoss is based upon keeping key units alive. Once the key units (particularly Colossi, Sentry, HTs) are neutralized, the Protoss army is completely laughable and extremely cost-inefficient in mid-late game, and it's an insta-win. Recalling the army, or the remains once the big dogs are down and out, will be a huge fix for Protoss' design flaw regarding this (terribad gateway units due to Warpgate tech but powerful Tier 3). Mass recall is actually an amazing defensive ability and also great for survivability, but lets be honest it will probably be nerfed to hell or completely removed, not even because it's OP but because of the whine that will ensue. Maybe if it wasn't mass recall but a smaller recall surface, but yeah Toss definitely needs it. Also, arc should should be good against banshee and muta too right? | ||
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SeaSwift
Scotland4486 Posts
On November 07 2011 07:20 iky43210 wrote: you can show statistically significance, but it doesn't show importance. top errors of interpreting statistics. Also TLDL is taken across all tourney level, high and low. Player skill is not equal and definitely varies across high end and low end of the spectrum Well, I'm glad you stopped talking BS about chess, and started repeating the same tired old arguments from non-P players we've been getting for the last few months. All your stuff about player skill not being taken into account has already been answered numerous times, and if you really cared about the truth, rather than just trying to make your race look better, you would have looked those responses up. | ||
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iky43210
United States2099 Posts
On November 07 2011 07:27 SeaSwift wrote: Well, I'm glad you stopped talking BS about chess, and started repeating the same tired old arguments from non-P players we've been getting for the last few months. All your stuff about player skill not being taken into account has already been answered numerous times, and if you really cared about the truth, rather than just trying to make your race look better, you would have looked those responses up. If you can't debate with logic, please don't reply to me | ||
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Deleted User 183001
2939 Posts
On November 07 2011 07:27 iLike413 wrote: Mass recall is actually an amazing defensive ability and also great for survivability, but lets be honest it will probably be nerfed to hell or completely removed, not even because it's OP but because of the whine that will ensue. Maybe if it wasn't mass recall but a smaller recall surface, but yeah Toss definitely needs it. Also, arc should should be good against banshee and muta too right? Yeah, mutas and banshees too. However, if they (especially Zerg) are heavy on harass, you'll be running low on energy :/. | ||
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kofman
Andorra698 Posts
On November 07 2011 06:44 flowSthead wrote: Dude, that goes both ways. Maybe Protoss payers are sick and tired of being told they are just worse than their Terran/Zerg counterparts. I'm not in favor of balance whining either, but you do not just reply to balance whining. You are also replying poorly to legitimate balance ideas/complaints. It's one thing to decry the flamers and trolls, and another thing to decry the entire Protoss race. Just look at what you wrote and think about your own bias for a second. There is no way to decry just the flamers and balance whiners, without also decrying the entire Protoss race, because all protosses on TL are whiners. Just look at the graphic thats on the front of every GSL featured writeup. | ||
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ArtemisKnives
United States210 Posts
Meanwhile, we'll pray to god for a new Ferrari. Later, we'll discuss why in both cases, our wishful thinking never came true. Interesting data, the Y axis being 40-60 is kind of annoying but it helps show the difference easier. | ||
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Narfinger
53 Posts
On November 07 2011 07:08 pure_protoss wrote: [...] Also, on a side note, I strongly believe the protoss win rates would be a lot higher if our early game was not sooo weak. Because vs terran or zerg, with the 4 gate a side that everyone knows how to counter these days, we have no real way to put pressure on both terrans and zergs. Also we have no way to scout early pressure or all ins builds (aside of the first probe that gets killed so early). Is this really true? People start doing Zealot pressures which do wonders in pressuring the third, either direct or indirect by using a lot of larva. Warp Prisms are also very underused at the moment vs Zerg. And the few times they are used they do a lot of damage. Even if every protoss here thinks zealots do absolutely nothing against drones. Today I saw an amazing phoenix into chargelot, archon game by (I think) MC which also seems to work. The problem with ZvP was for a long time that everybody did FFE into stargate. Everybody knows how to counter it and many Zerg blind countered stargate play. So it did no damage anymore against anybody. I think this will be fixed if not every protoss is so predictable. For the statistics: In my opinion ZvP will fix itself with new metagame changes. Increasing harass from the protoss side will fix any non muta style. For muta styles I don't really know. I can't remember many games where mutas won the game. TvP probably needs the ghost nerf from the PTR. If this is enough I don't really know but we should wait and see. ZvT I don't know. Snipe just seems really, really good but this could be decieving. On a slightly different note: The protoss QQ surpassed the zerg QQ for some month now. Not only is close to every thread infested with some form of QQ or ghost vs templar discussion, we also have to see a sad zealot on the frontpage again, implying that protoss is indeed saddest race in history. Oh and of course we have many people finding the "fundamental design issues" with protoss which they fix by increasing colossi range by 80, giving KA back with a 40 energy bonus and all different kind silly "fixes".And it starts to go on my nerve. Sadly this thread will not be an exception. | ||
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