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On November 07 2011 07:28 iky43210 wrote:
If you can't debate with logic, please don't reply to me
Care to point out where I was illogical and where you were right, or would you like to continue making snide remarks and posting either irrelevant "facts" and repetitions of posts the forum has seen for ages?
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On November 07 2011 04:22 Nemireck wrote:I don't understand why Protoss is so low. I lose to toss all the time 
That's because protoss do really well on the ladder, and balance at pro level in tournaments has nothing to do with ladder balance.
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On November 07 2011 07:32 Frozne wrote:
Hey guys, lets all "hope" Protoss does better next month.
Meanwhile, we'll pray to god for a new Ferrari.
Later, we'll discuss why in both cases, our wishful thinking never came true.
Interesting data, the Y axis being 40-60 is kind of annoying but it helps show the difference easier.
lol protoss has been getting constant buffs for many months now, while terran has been getting constant nerfs. You can't really blame terran for doing the best when they are still getting continuesly nerfed, while protoss is getting buffs.
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On November 07 2011 07:30 JudicatorHammurabi wrote:Show nested quote +On November 07 2011 07:27 iLike413 wrote:On November 07 2011 07:18 JudicatorHammurabi wrote:On November 07 2011 07:07 iLike413 wrote:On November 07 2011 05:01 freetgy wrote:
the graph format is fine.
Seems like the last stroke non-protoss cling onto to disagree with Protoss having very hard times since months.
There is no hope anyway for protoss unless they get someway of defenders advantage that does not set back their whole Army/Tech.
Meaning in WOL playing P will always be line playing on razors edge.
Lets hope that in HotS Protoss will be in a better position to play straight up macrogames. HotS should definitely fix this problem, Terran --> barracks --> bunker --> ez defense Zerg ---> pool --> Spine --> ez defense Protoss --> gateway --> but in HotS it will be Protoss ---> gateway --> Arc Shield  Similar to how spines can move around to different defensive positions, and bunkers can be salvaged and replaced in different positions, Arc shield should be able to be used in different defensive positions. I think since it is the most mobile of the three defenses, as in you can cast it on any building, its good that its only temporary. It's 20 seconds only, and does 5 damage to non-light, and it costs 50 energy iirc? Either way, it's a deterrence against ling assaults, assuming you're banking energy on Nexii early-mid game. They just pull back for a bit, until the Shield expires and you wasted a ton of Nexus energy. Sure, it gives you time to reorganize, but we'll see how it works out. It will certainly be useful mid-late game for ling runbys, however. What I'm more excited about is the recall ability. Protoss is based upon keeping key units alive. Once the key units (particularly Colossi, Sentry, HTs) are neutralized, the Protoss army is completely laughable and extremely cost-inefficient in mid-late game, and it's an insta-win. Recalling the army, or the remains once the big dogs are down and out, will be a huge fix for Protoss' design flaw regarding this (terribad gateway units due to Warpgate tech but powerful Tier 3). Mass recall is actually an amazing defensive ability and also great for survivability, but lets be honest it will probably be nerfed to hell or completely removed, not even because it's OP but because of the whine that will ensue. Maybe if it wasn't mass recall but a smaller recall surface, but yeah Toss definitely needs it. Also, arc should should be good against banshee and muta too right? Yeah, mutas and banshees too. However, if they (especially Zerg) are heavy on harass, you'll be running low on energy :/.
They only means to buy time for your army to reinforce, not completely ward off the enemy.
No turrets or queens are enough to ward off heavy harass alone if there're no reinforcement.
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On November 07 2011 04:29 IGotPlayguuu wrote:
I think i'm the only terran that keeps losing T.T Gonna switch to toss T.T
that makes two of us.. i'm 23-35 this season as terran, and last season i had 10 more losses than wins for a long time too TT.(europe masters)
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On November 07 2011 07:37 Assaulter wrote:Show nested quote +On November 07 2011 04:29 IGotPlayguuu wrote:
I think i'm the only terran that keeps losing T.T Gonna switch to toss T.T that makes two of us.. i'm 23-35 this season as terran, and last season i had 10 more losses than wins for a long time too TT.(europe masters)
I get the feeling from a few threads that Terran is considered harder below GM. It's a shame Blizzard hardly releases ladder results - while not relevant for balance at the highest level of play, it would still be interesting to see how it plays out in the lower leagues.
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This 40-60 range has been around for a while now and the graphs have always been appreciated. The feeling of some community members now is "the difference is getting worse for protoss, better change the graph so it doesn't look as bad!" lol it's kinda silly. It is important to not exaggerate imbalance though. I think T inherently does have a momentum strength because they initially looked the best, so they got a lot of skilled players in that race. The EMP nerf should help a lot, hopefully not making the match up much harder for terrans on the ladder. ZvP imbalance concerns me, it's so extreme that I feel that blizzard should consider doing a change for this patch even, but what would be changed? Mutas do seem like they are the cause of a lot of the trouble. The 30 second timing change on blink was obviously going to help muta get a bigger timing window, but it seems worse than expected. My initial thoughts are a faster void ray or a faster archon as that would really help deflect muta damage. But I worry about helping sub masters protoss much more, it really isn't imbalanced at that level and it would be best not to buff 1A move armies more.
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On November 07 2011 07:27 kofman wrote:Show nested quote +On November 07 2011 04:29 SeaSwift wrote:On November 07 2011 04:25 ZenithM wrote:
Looking balanced to me.
And even if it was not, there is not enough data to conclude anything.
And stats don't mean anything.
And you have to actually look at the gameplay and not the results to form an opinion on balance.
And Terran players are just better. Hahaha, I love the dry wit here on TL. Now that's all the Terran players' arguments out the way (y'know, the ones that have been raised every statistics thread since about March), now we can have a good moan about Protoss. I think that it's fairly obvious here that ZvT is Terran favoured, and the only reason why Zerg is looking okay is because ZvP is Zerg favoured, Protoss being the bottom of the heap as expected. I just hope these statistics quell any notions about balance raised by the MLG Orlando PvP finals. EDIT: On November 07 2011 04:27 DTK920 wrote:
A lot of protoss players have been complaining about losing to terran lately, but this graph clearly shows that ZvP is even worse. Don't know why all the hate is focused on terrans when zergs are clearly ahead. For a few reasons: 1) PvT has been Terran favoured since release, which indicates it is not a problem with innovation. 2) There is a new wave of PvZ coming in, led by HerO, JYP et al, which could solve the problem, whereas PvT looks pretty stagnant 3) There are few successful Zergs in GSL etc either, so although ZvP looks more imbalanced that might be because there are now Terrans in Code S who don't deserve to be there making the winrate look more even 4) ZvT looks imbalanced in favour of Terran as well, so Z and P can rally against T together. Lol, ZvT is the most balanced MU in the game! It's funny how zergs just have to find something to whine about.
IMO the Terran imbalance mostly comes from:
a) the variety of strats Terran can do while hiding it, because they can deny scouting, building an all-in or expanding. I still find Terran all-ins are the hardest to deal with because you hardly know they are coming
b) Terran can easily scout for all-ins and have the best "generic opening" IMO. I find the 1 rax FE is not only very good economic opening, but can defend against anything with help of the scan as scout.
So IMO Terran just have the advantage of in-base expand therefore hiding their strat, and always are able to scout, therefore can defend the incoming all in
Anyone agree?
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this are not ladder stats right? i have the feeling protoss does much better on the ladder in general. anyway stats are stats, they are all close to a 50% w/l exept for pvz. not bad for a 1y old sc2.
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Every other race has to commit to their expansions as well by placing it by the minerals and not moving it.
Terran can be like "oops" I made my CC too early so I'll keep it here and double worker produce and double mule til I'm safe to expand against this pressure.
Basically terran just works out to being EXTREMELY safe in all of their economic openings. The other races take the gamble and often eat shit because of it. Terran will just float their CC back and reform or reposition until the time is right. I know it's always been like that since SC1 but it just seems to be another culprit in their early game survival of builds they really shouldn't be surviving or coming out even on. Terran can always just even it up with relatively minimal losses in situations where other races would outright lose the game.
It's a thought.
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On November 07 2011 07:31 kofman wrote:Show nested quote +On November 07 2011 06:44 flowSthead wrote:On November 07 2011 06:31 doko100 wrote:On November 07 2011 06:25 SeaSwift wrote:On November 07 2011 06:19 Logros wrote:
Ah so this is why Terran has been 5% higher in winrate on average the last 12 months. You solved the problem I would message Blizzard asap! I wouldn't bother replying to him. His post history says everything you need to know, ranging from "protoss players are just being retards as usual" ( here) to "protoss players...... /facepalm" ( here). He clearly either wants attention or is just heavily biased and doesn't want his race to look biased. Not to mention that what he wrote most recently is just plain wrong - if you flip a coin 1000 times and it lands on it's head 1000/1000 of those times, there is a (1/2)^1000 chance of that happening. Sure, it is chance, but they possibility is so small it is far more likely to be weighted. This is why statistics are used. Well I'm sorry, but recently every protoss player is just whining. In every single thread no matter if it's LR or whatever protoss players cry, it's even worse than Zerg in '10. Yes I'm getting quite annoyed by protoss players recently and so do a lot of other people in this community, you spread so much hate, you flame us on the ladder and complain all the time about everything. Sometimes I wish blizzard would just remove protoss from the game so that we can get rid of you balance whiners. Dude, that goes both ways. Maybe Protoss payers are sick and tired of being told they are just worse than their Terran/Zerg counterparts. I'm not in favor of balance whining either, but you do not just reply to balance whining. You are also replying poorly to legitimate balance ideas/complaints. It's one thing to decry the flamers and trolls, and another thing to decry the entire Protoss race. Just look at what you wrote and think about your own bias for a second. There is no way to decry just the flamers and balance whiners, without also decrying the entire Protoss race, because all protosses on TL are whiners. Just look at the graphic thats on the front of every GSL featured writeup.
Seriously? How does this not get at least a warning?
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On November 07 2011 07:43 Elthreann wrote:Show nested quote +On November 07 2011 07:27 kofman wrote:On November 07 2011 04:29 SeaSwift wrote:On November 07 2011 04:25 ZenithM wrote:
Looking balanced to me.
And even if it was not, there is not enough data to conclude anything.
And stats don't mean anything.
And you have to actually look at the gameplay and not the results to form an opinion on balance.
And Terran players are just better. Hahaha, I love the dry wit here on TL. Now that's all the Terran players' arguments out the way (y'know, the ones that have been raised every statistics thread since about March), now we can have a good moan about Protoss. I think that it's fairly obvious here that ZvT is Terran favoured, and the only reason why Zerg is looking okay is because ZvP is Zerg favoured, Protoss being the bottom of the heap as expected. I just hope these statistics quell any notions about balance raised by the MLG Orlando PvP finals. EDIT: On November 07 2011 04:27 DTK920 wrote:
A lot of protoss players have been complaining about losing to terran lately, but this graph clearly shows that ZvP is even worse. Don't know why all the hate is focused on terrans when zergs are clearly ahead. For a few reasons: 1) PvT has been Terran favoured since release, which indicates it is not a problem with innovation. 2) There is a new wave of PvZ coming in, led by HerO, JYP et al, which could solve the problem, whereas PvT looks pretty stagnant 3) There are few successful Zergs in GSL etc either, so although ZvP looks more imbalanced that might be because there are now Terrans in Code S who don't deserve to be there making the winrate look more even 4) ZvT looks imbalanced in favour of Terran as well, so Z and P can rally against T together. Lol, ZvT is the most balanced MU in the game! It's funny how zergs just have to find something to whine about. IMO the Terran imbalance mostly comes from: a) the variety of strats Terran can do while hiding it, because they can deny scouting, building an all-in or expanding. I still find Terran all-ins are the hardest to deal with because you hardly know they are coming b) Terran can easily scout for all-ins and have the best "generic opening" IMO. I find the 1 rax FE is not only very good economic opening, but can defend against anything with help of the scan as scout. So IMO Terran just have the advantage of in-base expand therefore hiding their strat, and always are able to scout, therefore can defend the incoming all in Anyone agree?
No terran really uses scans early game. It doesn't help you in scouting all-ins really, if the P or Z simply hide units or proxy their buildings congratulations you just wasted 240 minerals on nothing. not even pro terrans scan early game, first scans are mainly early midgame or late-earlgame, because it's so hard to scout proxy gates and zerg all in is very hard to scout aswell because they can mass units so quickly, if a zerg decides to 2 base all-in there is very little you can do to scout that, in fact I think it's definitely easier to scout for protoss vs midgame zerg than it is for T, T has to hope for a "money" scan, you have to be very lucky with scans, you don't know where your opponent builds his stuff so once you have scanned you are completely in the dark again, unlike protoss who can use observers to constantly scout the opponent, altough they have to be very careful.
I still think that more protoss players should proxy gateways anywhere on the map, like on taldarim in some corner on the outside bases, it makes it pretty much impossible for the terran to scout and gives him no information when he scans, theres no reason not to, the chances to lose them are less than 0,1% and the benefit is denying information which is crucial in sc2., also protoss players should start to build their tech buildings at different spots in their base, most P players have a base layout so that you can scan everything with 1 scan, you can maximize this to at least 2 scans on some maps even 3. but right now P players dont really think about this too much, they make it kind of easy for the terrans to scout their tech with just 1 scan
On November 07 2011 07:55 flowSthead wrote:Show nested quote +On November 07 2011 07:31 kofman wrote:On November 07 2011 06:44 flowSthead wrote:On November 07 2011 06:31 doko100 wrote:On November 07 2011 06:25 SeaSwift wrote:On November 07 2011 06:19 Logros wrote:
Ah so this is why Terran has been 5% higher in winrate on average the last 12 months. You solved the problem I would message Blizzard asap! I wouldn't bother replying to him. His post history says everything you need to know, ranging from "protoss players are just being retards as usual" ( here) to "protoss players...... /facepalm" ( here). He clearly either wants attention or is just heavily biased and doesn't want his race to look biased. Not to mention that what he wrote most recently is just plain wrong - if you flip a coin 1000 times and it lands on it's head 1000/1000 of those times, there is a (1/2)^1000 chance of that happening. Sure, it is chance, but they possibility is so small it is far more likely to be weighted. This is why statistics are used. Well I'm sorry, but recently every protoss player is just whining. In every single thread no matter if it's LR or whatever protoss players cry, it's even worse than Zerg in '10. Yes I'm getting quite annoyed by protoss players recently and so do a lot of other people in this community, you spread so much hate, you flame us on the ladder and complain all the time about everything. Sometimes I wish blizzard would just remove protoss from the game so that we can get rid of you balance whiners. Dude, that goes both ways. Maybe Protoss payers are sick and tired of being told they are just worse than their Terran/Zerg counterparts. I'm not in favor of balance whining either, but you do not just reply to balance whining. You are also replying poorly to legitimate balance ideas/complaints. It's one thing to decry the flamers and trolls, and another thing to decry the entire Protoss race. Just look at what you wrote and think about your own bias for a second. There is no way to decry just the flamers and balance whiners, without also decrying the entire Protoss race, because all protosses on TL are whiners. Just look at the graphic thats on the front of every GSL featured writeup. Seriously? How does this not get at least a warning?
because it's true, what are you on about? this isn't nazi germany lol
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On November 07 2011 07:59 doko100 wrote:Show nested quote +On November 07 2011 07:43 Elthreann wrote:On November 07 2011 07:27 kofman wrote:On November 07 2011 04:29 SeaSwift wrote:On November 07 2011 04:25 ZenithM wrote:
Looking balanced to me.
And even if it was not, there is not enough data to conclude anything.
And stats don't mean anything.
And you have to actually look at the gameplay and not the results to form an opinion on balance.
And Terran players are just better. Hahaha, I love the dry wit here on TL. Now that's all the Terran players' arguments out the way (y'know, the ones that have been raised every statistics thread since about March), now we can have a good moan about Protoss. I think that it's fairly obvious here that ZvT is Terran favoured, and the only reason why Zerg is looking okay is because ZvP is Zerg favoured, Protoss being the bottom of the heap as expected. I just hope these statistics quell any notions about balance raised by the MLG Orlando PvP finals. EDIT: On November 07 2011 04:27 DTK920 wrote:
A lot of protoss players have been complaining about losing to terran lately, but this graph clearly shows that ZvP is even worse. Don't know why all the hate is focused on terrans when zergs are clearly ahead. For a few reasons: 1) PvT has been Terran favoured since release, which indicates it is not a problem with innovation. 2) There is a new wave of PvZ coming in, led by HerO, JYP et al, which could solve the problem, whereas PvT looks pretty stagnant 3) There are few successful Zergs in GSL etc either, so although ZvP looks more imbalanced that might be because there are now Terrans in Code S who don't deserve to be there making the winrate look more even 4) ZvT looks imbalanced in favour of Terran as well, so Z and P can rally against T together. Lol, ZvT is the most balanced MU in the game! It's funny how zergs just have to find something to whine about. IMO the Terran imbalance mostly comes from: a) the variety of strats Terran can do while hiding it, because they can deny scouting, building an all-in or expanding. I still find Terran all-ins are the hardest to deal with because you hardly know they are coming b) Terran can easily scout for all-ins and have the best "generic opening" IMO. I find the 1 rax FE is not only very good economic opening, but can defend against anything with help of the scan as scout. So IMO Terran just have the advantage of in-base expand therefore hiding their strat, and always are able to scout, therefore can defend the incoming all in Anyone agree? No terran really uses scans early game. It doesn't help you in scouting all-ins really, if the P or Z simply hide units or proxy their buildings congratulations you just wasted 240 minerals on nothing. not even pro terrans scan early game, first scans are mainly early midgame or late-earlgame, because it's so hard to scout proxy gates and zerg all in is very hard to scout aswell because they can mass units so quickly, if a zerg decides to 2 base all-in there is very little you can do to scout that, in fact I think it's definitely easier to scout for protoss vs midgame zerg than it is for T, T has to hope for a "money" scan, you have to be very lucky with scans, you don't know where your opponent builds his stuff so once you have scanned you are completely in the dark again, unlike protoss who can use observers to constantly scout the opponent, altough they have to be very careful. I still think that more protoss players should proxy gateways anywhere on the map, like on taldarim in some corner on the outside bases, it makes it pretty much impossible for the terran to scout and gives him no information when he scans, theres no reason not to, the chances to lose them are less than 0,1% and the benefit is denying information which is crucial in sc2., also protoss players should start to build their tech buildings at different spots in their base, most P players have a base layout so that you can scan everything with 1 scan, you can maximize this to at least 2 scans on some maps even 3. but right now P players dont really think about this too much, they make it kind of easy for the terrans to scout their tech with just 1 scan
Or Terrans can use their super fast hellions to scout like they have been doing the past few months. I haven't seen many Terrans surprised by an all-in since hellions became more popular. You get to scout and do damage! Neat!
And the reason most Protoss players have a base layout close to their Nexus is because Terran drops are so harsh to Protoss buildings and because Protoss is the only race that can have its buildings unpowered. Too many times important tech has been lost or an important upgrade to a drop, so Protoss players have adapted by making it easier to defend.
I find it hilarious how you think you know more than Protoss pros and they need you to tell them to space out their buildings because it takes more scans. As if they hadn't thought of it and perhaps had better reasons for not doing it. Great job. You should be a coach.
Show nested quote +On November 07 2011 07:55 flowSthead wrote:On November 07 2011 07:31 kofman wrote:On November 07 2011 06:44 flowSthead wrote:On November 07 2011 06:31 doko100 wrote:On November 07 2011 06:25 SeaSwift wrote:On November 07 2011 06:19 Logros wrote:
Ah so this is why Terran has been 5% higher in winrate on average the last 12 months. You solved the problem I would message Blizzard asap! I wouldn't bother replying to him. His post history says everything you need to know, ranging from "protoss players are just being retards as usual" ( here) to "protoss players...... /facepalm" ( here). He clearly either wants attention or is just heavily biased and doesn't want his race to look biased. Not to mention that what he wrote most recently is just plain wrong - if you flip a coin 1000 times and it lands on it's head 1000/1000 of those times, there is a (1/2)^1000 chance of that happening. Sure, it is chance, but they possibility is so small it is far more likely to be weighted. This is why statistics are used. Well I'm sorry, but recently every protoss player is just whining. In every single thread no matter if it's LR or whatever protoss players cry, it's even worse than Zerg in '10. Yes I'm getting quite annoyed by protoss players recently and so do a lot of other people in this community, you spread so much hate, you flame us on the ladder and complain all the time about everything. Sometimes I wish blizzard would just remove protoss from the game so that we can get rid of you balance whiners. Dude, that goes both ways. Maybe Protoss payers are sick and tired of being told they are just worse than their Terran/Zerg counterparts. I'm not in favor of balance whining either, but you do not just reply to balance whining. You are also replying poorly to legitimate balance ideas/complaints. It's one thing to decry the flamers and trolls, and another thing to decry the entire Protoss race. Just look at what you wrote and think about your own bias for a second. There is no way to decry just the flamers and balance whiners, without also decrying the entire Protoss race, because all protosses on TL are whiners. Just look at the graphic thats on the front of every GSL featured writeup. Seriously? How does this not get at least a warning? because it's true, what are you on about? this isn't nazi germany lol
No, it isn't true. Not all Protoss are going around complaining, it is a vocal minority, or at most a vocal plurality. At the very least, it isn't "the entire Protoss race", that is just a hasty generalization and poor logic. That is also why I asked for a warning because it is not helping the discussion by having people like you going around saying the entire Protoss race is whining. It's not constructive.
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On November 07 2011 06:31 phyren wrote:
Over large numbers, one does expect the numbers to converge to the probabilities. What I mean by this is that when flipping a coin, every single flip has an equal probability of being heads or tails. Similarly, a series of a hundred flips has an equal probability of being 100 tails or 50 tails followed by 50 heads. However, the probability of getting 50 total tails and 50 total heads will be very high due to the sheer number of orderings in which one can get 50 tails and 50 heads as compared to the exactly one ordering in which one can get 100 tails.
In fact, this trend grows extremely quickly. The difference between the chance of getting 49 tails and 51 heads vs 50 each (allowing any order) may not be so huge. However, the difference between 49000 and 51000 vs 50000 each is much more noticeable, even though it results in the same percentage.
People complaining that the graphs y axis scale is misrepresenting the data, or saying that 46% vs 54% is basically balanced are taking too naive of a view. As always, stats need to be taken with a grain of salt, and they don't conclusively prove imbalance, but the trend lines especially are very strong indicators that other players have been gradually adapting to deal with the possible threats protoss bring to the table.
I'd say you didn't represent things as accurately as they could be even though what was said was correct.
The number of games is about 800-3000 per column set (month). The chances of being outside of 43.7% in 270 (1/3 of 810) games assuming equal win chances is just 3.3%. There could have been less than 1/3 of games played being PvZ though, which would result in a higher chance, but still rather small.
So overall, the chances of a number like 44% is quite unlikely to happen by just chance.
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The issue with hiding tech buildings as protoss on the exterior of your base to "force" an extra scan or two quickly begins to work against you when all your buildings get sniped for being on the edge of your base or in strange places.
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On November 07 2011 07:59 doko100 wrote:Show nested quote +On November 07 2011 07:43 Elthreann wrote:On November 07 2011 07:27 kofman wrote:On November 07 2011 04:29 SeaSwift wrote:On November 07 2011 04:25 ZenithM wrote:
Looking balanced to me.
And even if it was not, there is not enough data to conclude anything.
And stats don't mean anything.
And you have to actually look at the gameplay and not the results to form an opinion on balance.
And Terran players are just better. Hahaha, I love the dry wit here on TL. Now that's all the Terran players' arguments out the way (y'know, the ones that have been raised every statistics thread since about March), now we can have a good moan about Protoss. I think that it's fairly obvious here that ZvT is Terran favoured, and the only reason why Zerg is looking okay is because ZvP is Zerg favoured, Protoss being the bottom of the heap as expected. I just hope these statistics quell any notions about balance raised by the MLG Orlando PvP finals. EDIT: On November 07 2011 04:27 DTK920 wrote:
A lot of protoss players have been complaining about losing to terran lately, but this graph clearly shows that ZvP is even worse. Don't know why all the hate is focused on terrans when zergs are clearly ahead. For a few reasons: 1) PvT has been Terran favoured since release, which indicates it is not a problem with innovation. 2) There is a new wave of PvZ coming in, led by HerO, JYP et al, which could solve the problem, whereas PvT looks pretty stagnant 3) There are few successful Zergs in GSL etc either, so although ZvP looks more imbalanced that might be because there are now Terrans in Code S who don't deserve to be there making the winrate look more even 4) ZvT looks imbalanced in favour of Terran as well, so Z and P can rally against T together. Lol, ZvT is the most balanced MU in the game! It's funny how zergs just have to find something to whine about. IMO the Terran imbalance mostly comes from: a) the variety of strats Terran can do while hiding it, because they can deny scouting, building an all-in or expanding. I still find Terran all-ins are the hardest to deal with because you hardly know they are coming b) Terran can easily scout for all-ins and have the best "generic opening" IMO. I find the 1 rax FE is not only very good economic opening, but can defend against anything with help of the scan as scout. So IMO Terran just have the advantage of in-base expand therefore hiding their strat, and always are able to scout, therefore can defend the incoming all in Anyone agree? No terran really uses scans early game. It doesn't help you in scouting all-ins really, if the P or Z simply hide units or proxy their buildings congratulations you just wasted 240 minerals on nothing. not even pro terrans scan early game, first scans are mainly early midgame or late-earlgame, because it's so hard to scout proxy gates and zerg all in is very hard to scout aswell because they can mass units so quickly, if a zerg decides to 2 base all-in there is very little you can do to scout that, in fact I think it's definitely easier to scout for protoss vs midgame zerg than it is for T, T has to hope for a "money" scan, you have to be very lucky with scans, you don't know where your opponent builds his stuff so once you have scanned you are completely in the dark again, unlike protoss who can use observers to constantly scout the opponent, altough they have to be very careful. I still think that more protoss players should proxy gateways anywhere on the map, like on taldarim in some corner on the outside bases, it makes it pretty much impossible for the terran to scout and gives him no information when he scans, theres no reason not to, the chances to lose them are less than 0,1% and the benefit is denying information which is crucial in sc2., also protoss players should start to build their tech buildings at different spots in their base, most P players have a base layout so that you can scan everything with 1 scan, you can maximize this to at least 2 scans on some maps even 3. but right now P players dont really think about this too much, they make it kind of easy for the terrans to scout their tech with just 1 scan Show nested quote +On November 07 2011 07:55 flowSthead wrote:On November 07 2011 07:31 kofman wrote:On November 07 2011 06:44 flowSthead wrote:On November 07 2011 06:31 doko100 wrote:On November 07 2011 06:25 SeaSwift wrote:On November 07 2011 06:19 Logros wrote:
Ah so this is why Terran has been 5% higher in winrate on average the last 12 months. You solved the problem I would message Blizzard asap! I wouldn't bother replying to him. His post history says everything you need to know, ranging from "protoss players are just being retards as usual" ( here) to "protoss players...... /facepalm" ( here). He clearly either wants attention or is just heavily biased and doesn't want his race to look biased. Not to mention that what he wrote most recently is just plain wrong - if you flip a coin 1000 times and it lands on it's head 1000/1000 of those times, there is a (1/2)^1000 chance of that happening. Sure, it is chance, but they possibility is so small it is far more likely to be weighted. This is why statistics are used. Well I'm sorry, but recently every protoss player is just whining. In every single thread no matter if it's LR or whatever protoss players cry, it's even worse than Zerg in '10. Yes I'm getting quite annoyed by protoss players recently and so do a lot of other people in this community, you spread so much hate, you flame us on the ladder and complain all the time about everything. Sometimes I wish blizzard would just remove protoss from the game so that we can get rid of you balance whiners. Dude, that goes both ways. Maybe Protoss payers are sick and tired of being told they are just worse than their Terran/Zerg counterparts. I'm not in favor of balance whining either, but you do not just reply to balance whining. You are also replying poorly to legitimate balance ideas/complaints. It's one thing to decry the flamers and trolls, and another thing to decry the entire Protoss race. Just look at what you wrote and think about your own bias for a second. There is no way to decry just the flamers and balance whiners, without also decrying the entire Protoss race, because all protosses on TL are whiners. Just look at the graphic thats on the front of every GSL featured writeup. Seriously? How does this not get at least a warning? because it's true, what are you on about? this isn't nazi germany lol
Ever heard of floating buildings for terran ? also, what's the point on hiding gateways anywhere on the map ? aside from losing them the instant the terran tries to drop you.
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On November 07 2011 08:06 flowSthead wrote:Show nested quote +On November 07 2011 07:59 doko100 wrote:On November 07 2011 07:43 Elthreann wrote:On November 07 2011 07:27 kofman wrote:On November 07 2011 04:29 SeaSwift wrote:On November 07 2011 04:25 ZenithM wrote:
Looking balanced to me.
And even if it was not, there is not enough data to conclude anything.
And stats don't mean anything.
And you have to actually look at the gameplay and not the results to form an opinion on balance.
And Terran players are just better. Hahaha, I love the dry wit here on TL. Now that's all the Terran players' arguments out the way (y'know, the ones that have been raised every statistics thread since about March), now we can have a good moan about Protoss. I think that it's fairly obvious here that ZvT is Terran favoured, and the only reason why Zerg is looking okay is because ZvP is Zerg favoured, Protoss being the bottom of the heap as expected. I just hope these statistics quell any notions about balance raised by the MLG Orlando PvP finals. EDIT: On November 07 2011 04:27 DTK920 wrote:
A lot of protoss players have been complaining about losing to terran lately, but this graph clearly shows that ZvP is even worse. Don't know why all the hate is focused on terrans when zergs are clearly ahead. For a few reasons: 1) PvT has been Terran favoured since release, which indicates it is not a problem with innovation. 2) There is a new wave of PvZ coming in, led by HerO, JYP et al, which could solve the problem, whereas PvT looks pretty stagnant 3) There are few successful Zergs in GSL etc either, so although ZvP looks more imbalanced that might be because there are now Terrans in Code S who don't deserve to be there making the winrate look more even 4) ZvT looks imbalanced in favour of Terran as well, so Z and P can rally against T together. Lol, ZvT is the most balanced MU in the game! It's funny how zergs just have to find something to whine about. IMO the Terran imbalance mostly comes from: a) the variety of strats Terran can do while hiding it, because they can deny scouting, building an all-in or expanding. I still find Terran all-ins are the hardest to deal with because you hardly know they are coming b) Terran can easily scout for all-ins and have the best "generic opening" IMO. I find the 1 rax FE is not only very good economic opening, but can defend against anything with help of the scan as scout. So IMO Terran just have the advantage of in-base expand therefore hiding their strat, and always are able to scout, therefore can defend the incoming all in Anyone agree? No terran really uses scans early game. It doesn't help you in scouting all-ins really, if the P or Z simply hide units or proxy their buildings congratulations you just wasted 240 minerals on nothing. not even pro terrans scan early game, first scans are mainly early midgame or late-earlgame, because it's so hard to scout proxy gates and zerg all in is very hard to scout aswell because they can mass units so quickly, if a zerg decides to 2 base all-in there is very little you can do to scout that, in fact I think it's definitely easier to scout for protoss vs midgame zerg than it is for T, T has to hope for a "money" scan, you have to be very lucky with scans, you don't know where your opponent builds his stuff so once you have scanned you are completely in the dark again, unlike protoss who can use observers to constantly scout the opponent, altough they have to be very careful. I still think that more protoss players should proxy gateways anywhere on the map, like on taldarim in some corner on the outside bases, it makes it pretty much impossible for the terran to scout and gives him no information when he scans, theres no reason not to, the chances to lose them are less than 0,1% and the benefit is denying information which is crucial in sc2., also protoss players should start to build their tech buildings at different spots in their base, most P players have a base layout so that you can scan everything with 1 scan, you can maximize this to at least 2 scans on some maps even 3. but right now P players dont really think about this too much, they make it kind of easy for the terrans to scout their tech with just 1 scan Or Terrans can use their super fast hellions to scout like they have been doing the past few months. I haven't seen many Terrans surprised by an all-in since hellions became more popular. You get to scout and do damage! Neat! And the reason most Protoss players have a base layout close to their Nexus is because Terran drops are so harsh to Protoss buildings and because Protoss is the only race that can have its buildings unpowered. Too many times important tech has been lost or an important upgrade to a drop, so Protoss players have adapted by making it easier to defend. I find it hilarious how you think you know more than Protoss pros and they need you to tell them to space out their buildings because it takes more scans. As if they hadn't thought of it and perhaps had better reasons for not doing it. Great job. You should be a coach. Show nested quote +On November 07 2011 07:55 flowSthead wrote:On November 07 2011 07:31 kofman wrote:On November 07 2011 06:44 flowSthead wrote:On November 07 2011 06:31 doko100 wrote:On November 07 2011 06:25 SeaSwift wrote:On November 07 2011 06:19 Logros wrote:
Ah so this is why Terran has been 5% higher in winrate on average the last 12 months. You solved the problem I would message Blizzard asap! I wouldn't bother replying to him. His post history says everything you need to know, ranging from "protoss players are just being retards as usual" ( here) to "protoss players...... /facepalm" ( here). He clearly either wants attention or is just heavily biased and doesn't want his race to look biased. Not to mention that what he wrote most recently is just plain wrong - if you flip a coin 1000 times and it lands on it's head 1000/1000 of those times, there is a (1/2)^1000 chance of that happening. Sure, it is chance, but they possibility is so small it is far more likely to be weighted. This is why statistics are used. Well I'm sorry, but recently every protoss player is just whining. In every single thread no matter if it's LR or whatever protoss players cry, it's even worse than Zerg in '10. Yes I'm getting quite annoyed by protoss players recently and so do a lot of other people in this community, you spread so much hate, you flame us on the ladder and complain all the time about everything. Sometimes I wish blizzard would just remove protoss from the game so that we can get rid of you balance whiners. Dude, that goes both ways. Maybe Protoss payers are sick and tired of being told they are just worse than their Terran/Zerg counterparts. I'm not in favor of balance whining either, but you do not just reply to balance whining. You are also replying poorly to legitimate balance ideas/complaints. It's one thing to decry the flamers and trolls, and another thing to decry the entire Protoss race. Just look at what you wrote and think about your own bias for a second. There is no way to decry just the flamers and balance whiners, without also decrying the entire Protoss race, because all protosses on TL are whiners. Just look at the graphic thats on the front of every GSL featured writeup. Seriously? How does this not get at least a warning? because it's true, what are you on about? this isn't nazi germany lol No, it isn't true. Not all Protoss are going around complaining, it is a vocal minority, or at most a vocal plurality. At the very least, it isn't "the entire Protoss race", that is just a hasty generalization and poor logic. That is also why I asked for a warning because it is not helping the discussion by having people like you going around saying the entire Protoss race is whining. It's not constructive.
What are you talking about? The roach expand build is very difficult to scout as terran, and it basically hard counters the hellion expand if you don't get a fast tank or get a bunker. If you are letting hellions into your base that roast your drones and scout your entire base, your just bad. Its not because hellions are OP.
It seems to me like you think you know everything. What a hypocrite.
So, replying to my statement with a post asking for a warning is constructive, right?
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On November 07 2011 08:06 flowSthead wrote:Show nested quote +On November 07 2011 07:59 doko100 wrote:On November 07 2011 07:43 Elthreann wrote:On November 07 2011 07:27 kofman wrote:On November 07 2011 04:29 SeaSwift wrote:On November 07 2011 04:25 ZenithM wrote:
Looking balanced to me.
And even if it was not, there is not enough data to conclude anything.
And stats don't mean anything.
And you have to actually look at the gameplay and not the results to form an opinion on balance.
And Terran players are just better. Hahaha, I love the dry wit here on TL. Now that's all the Terran players' arguments out the way (y'know, the ones that have been raised every statistics thread since about March), now we can have a good moan about Protoss. I think that it's fairly obvious here that ZvT is Terran favoured, and the only reason why Zerg is looking okay is because ZvP is Zerg favoured, Protoss being the bottom of the heap as expected. I just hope these statistics quell any notions about balance raised by the MLG Orlando PvP finals. EDIT: On November 07 2011 04:27 DTK920 wrote:
A lot of protoss players have been complaining about losing to terran lately, but this graph clearly shows that ZvP is even worse. Don't know why all the hate is focused on terrans when zergs are clearly ahead. For a few reasons: 1) PvT has been Terran favoured since release, which indicates it is not a problem with innovation. 2) There is a new wave of PvZ coming in, led by HerO, JYP et al, which could solve the problem, whereas PvT looks pretty stagnant 3) There are few successful Zergs in GSL etc either, so although ZvP looks more imbalanced that might be because there are now Terrans in Code S who don't deserve to be there making the winrate look more even 4) ZvT looks imbalanced in favour of Terran as well, so Z and P can rally against T together. Lol, ZvT is the most balanced MU in the game! It's funny how zergs just have to find something to whine about. IMO the Terran imbalance mostly comes from: a) the variety of strats Terran can do while hiding it, because they can deny scouting, building an all-in or expanding. I still find Terran all-ins are the hardest to deal with because you hardly know they are coming b) Terran can easily scout for all-ins and have the best "generic opening" IMO. I find the 1 rax FE is not only very good economic opening, but can defend against anything with help of the scan as scout. So IMO Terran just have the advantage of in-base expand therefore hiding their strat, and always are able to scout, therefore can defend the incoming all in Anyone agree? No terran really uses scans early game. It doesn't help you in scouting all-ins really, if the P or Z simply hide units or proxy their buildings congratulations you just wasted 240 minerals on nothing. not even pro terrans scan early game, first scans are mainly early midgame or late-earlgame, because it's so hard to scout proxy gates and zerg all in is very hard to scout aswell because they can mass units so quickly, if a zerg decides to 2 base all-in there is very little you can do to scout that, in fact I think it's definitely easier to scout for protoss vs midgame zerg than it is for T, T has to hope for a "money" scan, you have to be very lucky with scans, you don't know where your opponent builds his stuff so once you have scanned you are completely in the dark again, unlike protoss who can use observers to constantly scout the opponent, altough they have to be very careful. I still think that more protoss players should proxy gateways anywhere on the map, like on taldarim in some corner on the outside bases, it makes it pretty much impossible for the terran to scout and gives him no information when he scans, theres no reason not to, the chances to lose them are less than 0,1% and the benefit is denying information which is crucial in sc2., also protoss players should start to build their tech buildings at different spots in their base, most P players have a base layout so that you can scan everything with 1 scan, you can maximize this to at least 2 scans on some maps even 3. but right now P players dont really think about this too much, they make it kind of easy for the terrans to scout their tech with just 1 scan Or Terrans can use their super fast hellions to scout like they have been doing the past few months. I haven't seen many Terrans surprised by an all-in since hellions became more popular. You get to scout and do damage! Neat! And the reason most Protoss players have a base layout close to their Nexus is because Terran drops are so harsh to Protoss buildings and because Protoss is the only race that can have its buildings unpowered. Too many times important tech has been lost or an important upgrade to a drop, so Protoss players have adapted by making it easier to defend. I find it hilarious how you think you know more than Protoss pros and they need you to tell them to space out their buildings because it takes more scans. As if they hadn't thought of it and perhaps had better reasons for not doing it. Great job. You should be a coach. Show nested quote +Hellion openings require fast factory tech, you mostly play this in conjunction with the 1/1/1 build or a banshee build. if you use early hellions you can't use 1rax fe or 2 rax fe and if the protoss goes nexus first... well you are in trouble, or even if he 1 gate expands and then goes for robo, I don't see much you can do then. And the risk of a drop is there, so you obviously can't have everything spread out.... but you can build the twilight council behind your mineral line or the templar archives, it makes it harder for the terran to scan and you can't really tell me that base layouts are optimized at this point in time, there are a lot of small things T and P players can improve on in that regard, even pro players. On November 07 2011 07:55 flowSthead wrote:On November 07 2011 07:31 kofman wrote:On November 07 2011 06:44 flowSthead wrote:On November 07 2011 06:31 doko100 wrote:On November 07 2011 06:25 SeaSwift wrote:On November 07 2011 06:19 Logros wrote:
Ah so this is why Terran has been 5% higher in winrate on average the last 12 months. You solved the problem I would message Blizzard asap! I wouldn't bother replying to him. His post history says everything you need to know, ranging from "protoss players are just being retards as usual" ( here) to "protoss players...... /facepalm" ( here). He clearly either wants attention or is just heavily biased and doesn't want his race to look biased. Not to mention that what he wrote most recently is just plain wrong - if you flip a coin 1000 times and it lands on it's head 1000/1000 of those times, there is a (1/2)^1000 chance of that happening. Sure, it is chance, but they possibility is so small it is far more likely to be weighted. This is why statistics are used. Well I'm sorry, but recently every protoss player is just whining. In every single thread no matter if it's LR or whatever protoss players cry, it's even worse than Zerg in '10. Yes I'm getting quite annoyed by protoss players recently and so do a lot of other people in this community, you spread so much hate, you flame us on the ladder and complain all the time about everything. Sometimes I wish blizzard would just remove protoss from the game so that we can get rid of you balance whiners. Dude, that goes both ways. Maybe Protoss payers are sick and tired of being told they are just worse than their Terran/Zerg counterparts. I'm not in favor of balance whining either, but you do not just reply to balance whining. You are also replying poorly to legitimate balance ideas/complaints. It's one thing to decry the flamers and trolls, and another thing to decry the entire Protoss race. Just look at what you wrote and think about your own bias for a second. There is no way to decry just the flamers and balance whiners, without also decrying the entire Protoss race, because all protosses on TL are whiners. Just look at the graphic thats on the front of every GSL featured writeup. Seriously? How does this not get at least a warning? because it's true, what are you on about? this isn't nazi germany lol No, it isn't true. Not all Protoss are going around complaining, it is a vocal minority, or at most a vocal plurality. At the very least, it isn't "the entire Protoss race", that is just a hasty generalization and poor logic. That is also why I asked for a warning because it is not helping the discussion by having people like you going around saying the entire Protoss race is whining. It's not constructive.
Well, I'm sorry, but there is so much protoss whine, even you are whining to some extent, you think protoss is the weakest race, fine no problem. but you base this on stats based on the highest level of play and make it sound like it affects your level of play aswell and so do most protoss players, they blame imbalance, flame T and Z players on the ladder and are getting really annoying recently, I didn't make the experience that it's only a handful of protoss player. I get flamed pretty much every second game against P or they just dont GG anymore, hardly ever do I get a protoss player that GGs or doesn't flame me and some other Z and Ts I've been talking to made the same experience, it's pathetic to think that protoss is weak on the ladder, they are the most succesful ladder race for quite some time now, with the most players in GM and M and most average points, there is NO NEED for non pro toss players to complain, it's irrational.
On November 07 2011 08:12 Yaki wrote:Show nested quote +On November 07 2011 07:59 doko100 wrote:On November 07 2011 07:43 Elthreann wrote:On November 07 2011 07:27 kofman wrote:On November 07 2011 04:29 SeaSwift wrote:On November 07 2011 04:25 ZenithM wrote:
Looking balanced to me.
And even if it was not, there is not enough data to conclude anything.
And stats don't mean anything.
And you have to actually look at the gameplay and not the results to form an opinion on balance.
And Terran players are just better. Hahaha, I love the dry wit here on TL. Now that's all the Terran players' arguments out the way (y'know, the ones that have been raised every statistics thread since about March), now we can have a good moan about Protoss. I think that it's fairly obvious here that ZvT is Terran favoured, and the only reason why Zerg is looking okay is because ZvP is Zerg favoured, Protoss being the bottom of the heap as expected. I just hope these statistics quell any notions about balance raised by the MLG Orlando PvP finals. EDIT: On November 07 2011 04:27 DTK920 wrote:
A lot of protoss players have been complaining about losing to terran lately, but this graph clearly shows that ZvP is even worse. Don't know why all the hate is focused on terrans when zergs are clearly ahead. For a few reasons: 1) PvT has been Terran favoured since release, which indicates it is not a problem with innovation. 2) There is a new wave of PvZ coming in, led by HerO, JYP et al, which could solve the problem, whereas PvT looks pretty stagnant 3) There are few successful Zergs in GSL etc either, so although ZvP looks more imbalanced that might be because there are now Terrans in Code S who don't deserve to be there making the winrate look more even 4) ZvT looks imbalanced in favour of Terran as well, so Z and P can rally against T together. Lol, ZvT is the most balanced MU in the game! It's funny how zergs just have to find something to whine about. IMO the Terran imbalance mostly comes from: a) the variety of strats Terran can do while hiding it, because they can deny scouting, building an all-in or expanding. I still find Terran all-ins are the hardest to deal with because you hardly know they are coming b) Terran can easily scout for all-ins and have the best "generic opening" IMO. I find the 1 rax FE is not only very good economic opening, but can defend against anything with help of the scan as scout. So IMO Terran just have the advantage of in-base expand therefore hiding their strat, and always are able to scout, therefore can defend the incoming all in Anyone agree? No terran really uses scans early game. It doesn't help you in scouting all-ins really, if the P or Z simply hide units or proxy their buildings congratulations you just wasted 240 minerals on nothing. not even pro terrans scan early game, first scans are mainly early midgame or late-earlgame, because it's so hard to scout proxy gates and zerg all in is very hard to scout aswell because they can mass units so quickly, if a zerg decides to 2 base all-in there is very little you can do to scout that, in fact I think it's definitely easier to scout for protoss vs midgame zerg than it is for T, T has to hope for a "money" scan, you have to be very lucky with scans, you don't know where your opponent builds his stuff so once you have scanned you are completely in the dark again, unlike protoss who can use observers to constantly scout the opponent, altough they have to be very careful. I still think that more protoss players should proxy gateways anywhere on the map, like on taldarim in some corner on the outside bases, it makes it pretty much impossible for the terran to scout and gives him no information when he scans, theres no reason not to, the chances to lose them are less than 0,1% and the benefit is denying information which is crucial in sc2., also protoss players should start to build their tech buildings at different spots in their base, most P players have a base layout so that you can scan everything with 1 scan, you can maximize this to at least 2 scans on some maps even 3. but right now P players dont really think about this too much, they make it kind of easy for the terrans to scout their tech with just 1 scan On November 07 2011 07:55 flowSthead wrote:On November 07 2011 07:31 kofman wrote:On November 07 2011 06:44 flowSthead wrote:On November 07 2011 06:31 doko100 wrote:On November 07 2011 06:25 SeaSwift wrote:On November 07 2011 06:19 Logros wrote:
Ah so this is why Terran has been 5% higher in winrate on average the last 12 months. You solved the problem I would message Blizzard asap! I wouldn't bother replying to him. His post history says everything you need to know, ranging from "protoss players are just being retards as usual" ( here) to "protoss players...... /facepalm" ( here). He clearly either wants attention or is just heavily biased and doesn't want his race to look biased. Not to mention that what he wrote most recently is just plain wrong - if you flip a coin 1000 times and it lands on it's head 1000/1000 of those times, there is a (1/2)^1000 chance of that happening. Sure, it is chance, but they possibility is so small it is far more likely to be weighted. This is why statistics are used. Well I'm sorry, but recently every protoss player is just whining. In every single thread no matter if it's LR or whatever protoss players cry, it's even worse than Zerg in '10. Yes I'm getting quite annoyed by protoss players recently and so do a lot of other people in this community, you spread so much hate, you flame us on the ladder and complain all the time about everything. Sometimes I wish blizzard would just remove protoss from the game so that we can get rid of you balance whiners. Dude, that goes both ways. Maybe Protoss payers are sick and tired of being told they are just worse than their Terran/Zerg counterparts. I'm not in favor of balance whining either, but you do not just reply to balance whining. You are also replying poorly to legitimate balance ideas/complaints. It's one thing to decry the flamers and trolls, and another thing to decry the entire Protoss race. Just look at what you wrote and think about your own bias for a second. There is no way to decry just the flamers and balance whiners, without also decrying the entire Protoss race, because all protosses on TL are whiners. Just look at the graphic thats on the front of every GSL featured writeup. Seriously? How does this not get at least a warning? because it's true, what are you on about? this isn't nazi germany lol Ever heard of floating buildings for terran ? also, what's the point on hiding gateways anywhere on the map ? aside from losing them the instant the terran tries to drop you.
Floating buildings? What are you talking about?
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On November 07 2011 08:13 kofman wrote:Show nested quote +On November 07 2011 08:06 flowSthead wrote:On November 07 2011 07:59 doko100 wrote:On November 07 2011 07:43 Elthreann wrote:On November 07 2011 07:27 kofman wrote:On November 07 2011 04:29 SeaSwift wrote:On November 07 2011 04:25 ZenithM wrote:
Looking balanced to me.
And even if it was not, there is not enough data to conclude anything.
And stats don't mean anything.
And you have to actually look at the gameplay and not the results to form an opinion on balance.
And Terran players are just better. Hahaha, I love the dry wit here on TL. Now that's all the Terran players' arguments out the way (y'know, the ones that have been raised every statistics thread since about March), now we can have a good moan about Protoss. I think that it's fairly obvious here that ZvT is Terran favoured, and the only reason why Zerg is looking okay is because ZvP is Zerg favoured, Protoss being the bottom of the heap as expected. I just hope these statistics quell any notions about balance raised by the MLG Orlando PvP finals. EDIT: On November 07 2011 04:27 DTK920 wrote:
A lot of protoss players have been complaining about losing to terran lately, but this graph clearly shows that ZvP is even worse. Don't know why all the hate is focused on terrans when zergs are clearly ahead. For a few reasons: 1) PvT has been Terran favoured since release, which indicates it is not a problem with innovation. 2) There is a new wave of PvZ coming in, led by HerO, JYP et al, which could solve the problem, whereas PvT looks pretty stagnant 3) There are few successful Zergs in GSL etc either, so although ZvP looks more imbalanced that might be because there are now Terrans in Code S who don't deserve to be there making the winrate look more even 4) ZvT looks imbalanced in favour of Terran as well, so Z and P can rally against T together. Lol, ZvT is the most balanced MU in the game! It's funny how zergs just have to find something to whine about. IMO the Terran imbalance mostly comes from: a) the variety of strats Terran can do while hiding it, because they can deny scouting, building an all-in or expanding. I still find Terran all-ins are the hardest to deal with because you hardly know they are coming b) Terran can easily scout for all-ins and have the best "generic opening" IMO. I find the 1 rax FE is not only very good economic opening, but can defend against anything with help of the scan as scout. So IMO Terran just have the advantage of in-base expand therefore hiding their strat, and always are able to scout, therefore can defend the incoming all in Anyone agree? No terran really uses scans early game. It doesn't help you in scouting all-ins really, if the P or Z simply hide units or proxy their buildings congratulations you just wasted 240 minerals on nothing. not even pro terrans scan early game, first scans are mainly early midgame or late-earlgame, because it's so hard to scout proxy gates and zerg all in is very hard to scout aswell because they can mass units so quickly, if a zerg decides to 2 base all-in there is very little you can do to scout that, in fact I think it's definitely easier to scout for protoss vs midgame zerg than it is for T, T has to hope for a "money" scan, you have to be very lucky with scans, you don't know where your opponent builds his stuff so once you have scanned you are completely in the dark again, unlike protoss who can use observers to constantly scout the opponent, altough they have to be very careful. I still think that more protoss players should proxy gateways anywhere on the map, like on taldarim in some corner on the outside bases, it makes it pretty much impossible for the terran to scout and gives him no information when he scans, theres no reason not to, the chances to lose them are less than 0,1% and the benefit is denying information which is crucial in sc2., also protoss players should start to build their tech buildings at different spots in their base, most P players have a base layout so that you can scan everything with 1 scan, you can maximize this to at least 2 scans on some maps even 3. but right now P players dont really think about this too much, they make it kind of easy for the terrans to scout their tech with just 1 scan Or Terrans can use their super fast hellions to scout like they have been doing the past few months. I haven't seen many Terrans surprised by an all-in since hellions became more popular. You get to scout and do damage! Neat! And the reason most Protoss players have a base layout close to their Nexus is because Terran drops are so harsh to Protoss buildings and because Protoss is the only race that can have its buildings unpowered. Too many times important tech has been lost or an important upgrade to a drop, so Protoss players have adapted by making it easier to defend. I find it hilarious how you think you know more than Protoss pros and they need you to tell them to space out their buildings because it takes more scans. As if they hadn't thought of it and perhaps had better reasons for not doing it. Great job. You should be a coach. On November 07 2011 07:55 flowSthead wrote:On November 07 2011 07:31 kofman wrote:On November 07 2011 06:44 flowSthead wrote:On November 07 2011 06:31 doko100 wrote:On November 07 2011 06:25 SeaSwift wrote:On November 07 2011 06:19 Logros wrote:
Ah so this is why Terran has been 5% higher in winrate on average the last 12 months. You solved the problem I would message Blizzard asap! I wouldn't bother replying to him. His post history says everything you need to know, ranging from "protoss players are just being retards as usual" ( here) to "protoss players...... /facepalm" ( here). He clearly either wants attention or is just heavily biased and doesn't want his race to look biased. Not to mention that what he wrote most recently is just plain wrong - if you flip a coin 1000 times and it lands on it's head 1000/1000 of those times, there is a (1/2)^1000 chance of that happening. Sure, it is chance, but they possibility is so small it is far more likely to be weighted. This is why statistics are used. Well I'm sorry, but recently every protoss player is just whining. In every single thread no matter if it's LR or whatever protoss players cry, it's even worse than Zerg in '10. Yes I'm getting quite annoyed by protoss players recently and so do a lot of other people in this community, you spread so much hate, you flame us on the ladder and complain all the time about everything. Sometimes I wish blizzard would just remove protoss from the game so that we can get rid of you balance whiners. Dude, that goes both ways. Maybe Protoss payers are sick and tired of being told they are just worse than their Terran/Zerg counterparts. I'm not in favor of balance whining either, but you do not just reply to balance whining. You are also replying poorly to legitimate balance ideas/complaints. It's one thing to decry the flamers and trolls, and another thing to decry the entire Protoss race. Just look at what you wrote and think about your own bias for a second. There is no way to decry just the flamers and balance whiners, without also decrying the entire Protoss race, because all protosses on TL are whiners. Just look at the graphic thats on the front of every GSL featured writeup. Seriously? How does this not get at least a warning? because it's true, what are you on about? this isn't nazi germany lol No, it isn't true. Not all Protoss are going around complaining, it is a vocal minority, or at most a vocal plurality. At the very least, it isn't "the entire Protoss race", that is just a hasty generalization and poor logic. That is also why I asked for a warning because it is not helping the discussion by having people like you going around saying the entire Protoss race is whining. It's not constructive. What are you talking about? The roach expand build is very difficult to scout as terran, and it basically hard counters the hellion expand if you don't get a fast tank or get a bunker. If you are letting hellions into your base that roast your drones and scout your entire base, your just bad. Its not because hellions are OP. It seems to me like you think you know everything. What a hypocrite. So, replying to my statement with a post asking for a warning is constructive, right?
Plenty of very talented zergs lose drones to Hellions. And building a bunker as part of a hellion expand is just playing safe (See MVP vs AnNyeong in the WCG). I also never said hellions are OP. If you read what I wrote (critical reading is hard I know), then you would see that I responded that Terran can scout what the Zerg is doing relatively easily compared with Protoss due to their fast Hellions. It doesn't make the hellions OP. Quite the contrary. It makes the Terran race very stable, something which the Protoss race lacks.
The only similar unit to the Hellion is the Phoenix, but a Phoenix is a much bigger investment than a Hellion. It is not quite comparable.
And replying to your statement which is "the entire Protoss race is whiners" asking for a warning is constructive, yes. See, you are not contributing to the discussion, so therefore it would be constructive to get you to contribute with actual content rather than flame baiting.
And no, I do not think I know everything. If you read my post history in the KA amulet thread, I actually ask a lot of questions and post what I "think" is the case. I then try to argue using logic and examples. I also welcome to be proven wrong, but so far doko here has only been posting about how much Protoss suck and how he knows better. I don't think that makes me a hypocrite. Please point out specific examples of where I am a hypocrite, and I would gladly concede. I hate making mistakes so I will do my best to not be a hypocrite.
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On November 07 2011 08:15 doko100 wrote:Show nested quote +On November 07 2011 08:06 flowSthead wrote:On November 07 2011 07:59 doko100 wrote:On November 07 2011 07:43 Elthreann wrote:On November 07 2011 07:27 kofman wrote:On November 07 2011 04:29 SeaSwift wrote:On November 07 2011 04:25 ZenithM wrote:
Looking balanced to me.
And even if it was not, there is not enough data to conclude anything.
And stats don't mean anything.
And you have to actually look at the gameplay and not the results to form an opinion on balance.
And Terran players are just better. Hahaha, I love the dry wit here on TL. Now that's all the Terran players' arguments out the way (y'know, the ones that have been raised every statistics thread since about March), now we can have a good moan about Protoss. I think that it's fairly obvious here that ZvT is Terran favoured, and the only reason why Zerg is looking okay is because ZvP is Zerg favoured, Protoss being the bottom of the heap as expected. I just hope these statistics quell any notions about balance raised by the MLG Orlando PvP finals. EDIT: On November 07 2011 04:27 DTK920 wrote:
A lot of protoss players have been complaining about losing to terran lately, but this graph clearly shows that ZvP is even worse. Don't know why all the hate is focused on terrans when zergs are clearly ahead. For a few reasons: 1) PvT has been Terran favoured since release, which indicates it is not a problem with innovation. 2) There is a new wave of PvZ coming in, led by HerO, JYP et al, which could solve the problem, whereas PvT looks pretty stagnant 3) There are few successful Zergs in GSL etc either, so although ZvP looks more imbalanced that might be because there are now Terrans in Code S who don't deserve to be there making the winrate look more even 4) ZvT looks imbalanced in favour of Terran as well, so Z and P can rally against T together. Lol, ZvT is the most balanced MU in the game! It's funny how zergs just have to find something to whine about. IMO the Terran imbalance mostly comes from: a) the variety of strats Terran can do while hiding it, because they can deny scouting, building an all-in or expanding. I still find Terran all-ins are the hardest to deal with because you hardly know they are coming b) Terran can easily scout for all-ins and have the best "generic opening" IMO. I find the 1 rax FE is not only very good economic opening, but can defend against anything with help of the scan as scout. So IMO Terran just have the advantage of in-base expand therefore hiding their strat, and always are able to scout, therefore can defend the incoming all in Anyone agree? No terran really uses scans early game. It doesn't help you in scouting all-ins really, if the P or Z simply hide units or proxy their buildings congratulations you just wasted 240 minerals on nothing. not even pro terrans scan early game, first scans are mainly early midgame or late-earlgame, because it's so hard to scout proxy gates and zerg all in is very hard to scout aswell because they can mass units so quickly, if a zerg decides to 2 base all-in there is very little you can do to scout that, in fact I think it's definitely easier to scout for protoss vs midgame zerg than it is for T, T has to hope for a "money" scan, you have to be very lucky with scans, you don't know where your opponent builds his stuff so once you have scanned you are completely in the dark again, unlike protoss who can use observers to constantly scout the opponent, altough they have to be very careful. I still think that more protoss players should proxy gateways anywhere on the map, like on taldarim in some corner on the outside bases, it makes it pretty much impossible for the terran to scout and gives him no information when he scans, theres no reason not to, the chances to lose them are less than 0,1% and the benefit is denying information which is crucial in sc2., also protoss players should start to build their tech buildings at different spots in their base, most P players have a base layout so that you can scan everything with 1 scan, you can maximize this to at least 2 scans on some maps even 3. but right now P players dont really think about this too much, they make it kind of easy for the terrans to scout their tech with just 1 scan Or Terrans can use their super fast hellions to scout like they have been doing the past few months. I haven't seen many Terrans surprised by an all-in since hellions became more popular. You get to scout and do damage! Neat! And the reason most Protoss players have a base layout close to their Nexus is because Terran drops are so harsh to Protoss buildings and because Protoss is the only race that can have its buildings unpowered. Too many times important tech has been lost or an important upgrade to a drop, so Protoss players have adapted by making it easier to defend. I find it hilarious how you think you know more than Protoss pros and they need you to tell them to space out their buildings because it takes more scans. As if they hadn't thought of it and perhaps had better reasons for not doing it. Great job. You should be a coach. Hellion openings require fast factory tech, you mostly play this in conjunction with the 1/1/1 build or a banshee build. if you use early hellions you can't use 1rax fe or 2 rax fe and if the protoss goes nexus first... well you are in trouble, or even if he 1 gate expands and then goes for robo, I don't see much you can do then. And the risk of a drop is there, so you obviously can't have everything spread out.... but you can build the twilight council behind your mineral line or the templar archives, it makes it harder for the terran to scan and you can't really tell me that base layouts are optimized at this point in time, there are a lot of small things T and P players can improve on in that regard, even pro players. On November 07 2011 07:55 flowSthead wrote:On November 07 2011 07:31 kofman wrote:On November 07 2011 06:44 flowSthead wrote:On November 07 2011 06:31 doko100 wrote:On November 07 2011 06:25 SeaSwift wrote:On November 07 2011 06:19 Logros wrote:
Ah so this is why Terran has been 5% higher in winrate on average the last 12 months. You solved the problem I would message Blizzard asap! I wouldn't bother replying to him. His post history says everything you need to know, ranging from "protoss players are just being retards as usual" ( here) to "protoss players...... /facepalm" ( here). He clearly either wants attention or is just heavily biased and doesn't want his race to look biased. Not to mention that what he wrote most recently is just plain wrong - if you flip a coin 1000 times and it lands on it's head 1000/1000 of those times, there is a (1/2)^1000 chance of that happening. Sure, it is chance, but they possibility is so small it is far more likely to be weighted. This is why statistics are used. Well I'm sorry, but recently every protoss player is just whining. In every single thread no matter if it's LR or whatever protoss players cry, it's even worse than Zerg in '10. Yes I'm getting quite annoyed by protoss players recently and so do a lot of other people in this community, you spread so much hate, you flame us on the ladder and complain all the time about everything. Sometimes I wish blizzard would just remove protoss from the game so that we can get rid of you balance whiners. Dude, that goes both ways. Maybe Protoss payers are sick and tired of being told they are just worse than their Terran/Zerg counterparts. I'm not in favor of balance whining either, but you do not just reply to balance whining. You are also replying poorly to legitimate balance ideas/complaints. It's one thing to decry the flamers and trolls, and another thing to decry the entire Protoss race. Just look at what you wrote and think about your own bias for a second. There is no way to decry just the flamers and balance whiners, without also decrying the entire Protoss race, because all protosses on TL are whiners. Just look at the graphic thats on the front of every GSL featured writeup. Seriously? How does this not get at least a warning? because it's true, what are you on about? this isn't nazi germany lol No, it isn't true. Not all Protoss are going around complaining, it is a vocal minority, or at most a vocal plurality. At the very least, it isn't "the entire Protoss race", that is just a hasty generalization and poor logic. That is also why I asked for a warning because it is not helping the discussion by having people like you going around saying the entire Protoss race is whining. It's not constructive. Well, I'm sorry, but there is so much protoss whine, even you are whining to some extent, you think protoss is the weakest race, fine no problem. but you base this on stats based on the highest level of play and make it sound like it affects your level of play aswell and so do most protoss players, they blame imbalance, flame T and Z players on the ladder and are getting really annoying recently, I didn't make the experience that it's only a handful of protoss player. I get flamed pretty much every second game against P or they just dont GG anymore, hardly ever do I get a protoss player that GGs or doesn't flame me and some other Z and Ts I've been talking to made the same experience, it's pathetic to think that protoss is weak on the ladder, they are the most succesful ladder race for quite some time now, with the most players in GM and M and most average points, there is NO NEED for non pro toss players to complain, it's irrational.
I never said Protoss is the weakest race. Protoss has some of the strongest all ins in the games, some of the best timings, and some of the best cheeses. I think that is the reason that these winrates are not worse. I think Protoss is the weakest macro race, definitely, which is my problem with the way it is currently balanced.
I also want to watch great games from equally skilled players where both players go macro games. You are right, it doesn't affect me and I never said it did in my play. But it does affect my viewing experience of the game since I watch the pros play. I want more Protoss macro games, and it is difficult to see because of the way the race is designed.
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