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Otolia
France5805 Posts
On November 02 2011 03:36 BlitzerSC wrote: Why should he apologize ? Because he didn't get his money in time and stated that to the public ? What the FUCK ? The tournament ended 7 days ago. The staff had others things to do. If he wasn't paid after a month he may have complained. Now he is just a cry-baby. I never like people who tried to manipulated the opinion of the mass. | ||
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aTnClouD
Italy2428 Posts
On November 02 2011 03:38 Otolia wrote: The tournament ended 7 days ago. The staff had others things to do. If he wasn't paid after a month he may have complained. Now he is just a cry-baby. I never like people who tried to manipulated the opinion of the mass. Sorry I don't understand your point, I just stated I didn't get contacted by anybody about prizes after few days and they have a bad reputation of not paying prizes so it makes me worried. Both are true. Why should I need to apologize? | ||
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kevinthemighty
United States134 Posts
On November 02 2011 03:20 Larryx wrote: I dont see my post being banned when naniwa is called somone piece of... 3x times in this thread. Unless TL is favoring the players that is. Except that Naniwa was calling the guy a PoS out of anger for scamming him, and not his quality of play... Your inability to recognize the difference is why it should be considered bannable. | ||
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Timerly
Germany511 Posts
The main reason it's not paid is probably the fact that tournaments don't have set dates for their sponsorship money coming in (which they should). The capital for most e-sports companies is thin to say the least, even the bigger ones can't handle paying out five figures and more without any liquidity issues coming up. They rely on sponsors paying. They've got to still be considered start ups for the most part, too. It's hard to pay when you don't have solid cash flow yourself. I highly doubt that ESL etc. don't pay because they're trying to scam ppl out of their money. That's not Kotick running these companies. ESL for example pays late (and states so before tournaments in the rules btw) for tax and credit reasons. With more money lying around it would probably be handled within a week. All that is just some explanation, by no means an excuse. Maybe e-sports is growing too fast to ensure that the rising prizes are paid on time because the companies and sponsorship deals tend to grow more organically and skyrocket less. It will have to improve. That's just a fact. | ||
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AntiSleep
Canada91 Posts
I'd hate it if I ever got good and spent like a couple hundred to go to a tournament only to not get paid out when I win -_- would totally make the trip not worth it as your going their to win money not to play games...(pun intended) lol | ||
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Klondikebar
United States2227 Posts
On November 02 2011 03:44 kevinthemighty wrote: Except that Naniwa was calling the guy a PoS out of anger for scamming him, and not his quality of play... Your inability to recognize the difference is why it should be considered bannable. And it flat out says in the 10 commandments of the TL forums that professional players and long time members are given more leeway. If Naniwa and I made the exact same BM post, it is well within the TL guidelines to ban me and leave him alone. | ||
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Xardean
United States104 Posts
On November 02 2011 03:38 Otolia wrote: The tournament ended 7 days ago. The staff had others things to do. If he wasn't paid after a month he may have complained. Now he is just a cry-baby. I never like people who tried to manipulated the opinion of the mass. Good job taking other peoples interpretations of another persons statement and calling him a cry baby for how people are interpreting him. He was voicing his concern over not being contacted. It's not like he was calling them a terrible organization for not giving him his money the second he won. I never like people who twist others words. | ||
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jeremysaint
Canada80 Posts
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FlyingDJ
Germany153 Posts
On November 02 2011 03:50 Timerly wrote: Considering the history of the brand ESWC it's completely reasonable to wonder. I'm 100% with Cloud when he makes statements like this. I met him, I talked to him, he doesn't get angry like that for no reason, nor does he lack professionalism. It's a known fact for anybody who ever had close contact with tournaments and/or players that prize money is paid so late, it's not reliable in your financial planning at all. How is it reasonable to publicly imply that a tournament might not pay even though it ended a week ago, especially as a player and not just some random user? You shouldn't forget that prize money is only a part of what the tournament does for a player. It's also publicity and sponsor exposure, without which no team would hire them. That's the reason why most of the teams keep quiet about this topic because in essence, the tournaments that do not pay out at all are not the majority. And even when the prize money gets paid late, the players still need the tournaments with all the exposure they get from them more than the prize money. | ||
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HoodedAvatar
Canada115 Posts
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FliedLice
Germany7494 Posts
On November 01 2011 03:32 Serejai wrote: Quoting this because too many people are simply jumping on the bandwagon without having both sides of the story. I don't get what's the problem exactly, Darkforce even said that some of the tournaments on his list are just a couple of weeks back and that there's no problem with that. | ||
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AEsgaims
United States237 Posts
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LittleAtari
Jordan1090 Posts
Yes, I am saying that if an tournament doesnt pay you within reasonable time, players should sue for their money. What's considered 'reasonable?' Well, I'm sure withholding funds for over a month without giving a date of when it will be distributed would be unreasonable. | ||
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perestain
Germany308 Posts
..just dont pay it out, yo. What a genius business idea! Also, broke players can't hire lawyers. And if players complain, some people will eventually appear on forums who will claim that players are whiners who should be more professional or threaten them with consequences should they make public statements. Well, contemporary history proves that you can get away with the worst if your marketing is good enough and you manage to somehow circumvent jurisdiction. Just look at apple and the conditions for the people who actually manufacture their products. So I guess it is just a reasonable business approach to not pay out. Dont blame the organizers, they're just acting professional. | ||
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Lann555
Netherlands5173 Posts
A lot of people are high on the growth of E-sports right now, but there still isn't a very solid revenue structure. Premium passes only work for the biggest tournaments and then only a handful people even buy it. It's a drop in the bucket really. Sponsors and advertisement have to provide most of the money, but only the biggest tournaments are pulling 100K+ viewers and even that is not super interesting from an advertisement perspective. To put it in perspective, a program on dutch TV that pulls around 100K viewers is likely to get cancelled in the foreseeable future. And that is for a country of 16 million. So 100K worldwide is really not very much at all. So tournaments that don't pull anywhere near that and are more in the 10K-ish range of viewers, yet still promise huge pricemoney are simply not viable from an economic perspective. It seems that right now there are a lot of people trying to get into E-sports, in the hope of holding out somehow until in blows up big and then cash in. Kind of a bubble, not entirely unlike the IT-bubble of the late 90's (where a lot of online companies had no actual way to make money). Wouldn't be surprised if most of the the tournaments that are mentioned here will disappear somewhere in the next year | ||
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Carson
Canada820 Posts
this is a real shame, tournaments that can't pay out need to be black listed! | ||
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McFeser
United States2458 Posts
On November 02 2011 03:52 Klondikebar wrote: And it flat out says in the 10 commandments of the TL forums that professional players and long time members are given more leeway. If Naniwa and I made the exact same BM post, it is well within the TL guidelines to ban me and leave him alone. To add further clarification, Pros do get banned all the time (IE IdrA, TT1, and for some odd fucking reason Sheth has 3 bans at TL) so I wouldn't say they are given a lot of leeway. | ||
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nuMi22
United Kingdom165 Posts
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jonyjon
France17 Posts
The cash prize is really something i give importance to. I'm always very happy when i hear that a several k$ cash prize will be the stake of the competition, making me feel that e-sport is something big and becomes bigger and bigger. It is also a way to evaluate the prestige of a cup. I have always looked for the amount of the cash prize in every cups, even the monthly and weekly ones. It's the first time i hear about that, and i really hope that there will be more communication from organisers and players about the issue for next tourneys. I care about players who give me a nice show. Respecful organisers also deserve a shoutout. I won't -yet- bash tourneys organizers because reading this thread showed that it's not that easy to distinguish between who pays, who does not, who pays late, who pays too late, who needs to be harassed etc. About the eswc issue, maybe quatrix overreacted because i didn't feel like the new organisation was directly accused. there was only a suspicion that could have been avoided if both tried to quickly take contact with each other (i even remember that cloud posted about that in the eswc thread and quatrix answered). I'm not saying that everything looked perfect and nothing should be changed about this precise problem. Regarding law, at least in France, it is really obvious that such promises must be honoured. Here are even quick and cheap procedure where you can ask for damages if you win in order to repair the loss of time. I hope it is the case in all democratic country. So now, my question is: Can e-sport be economically viable and have a profitable business model? Because what we see here (even though it is a very well known issue, it is not for people brought to e-sport by sc2 like me) make me feel like the answer is "no" ATM. So sad. | ||
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LittleAtari
Jordan1090 Posts
On November 02 2011 04:29 Lann555 wrote: I doubt it has anything to do with attitude or laziness or poor management. I'm fairly certain in a lot of these cases the money simply isn't there. A lot of people are high on the growth of E-sports right now, but there still isn't a very solid revenue structure. Premium passes only work for the biggest tournaments and then only a handful people even buy it. It's a drop in the bucket really. Sponsors and advertisement have to provide most of the money, but only the biggest tournaments are pulling 100K+ viewers and even that is not super interesting from an advertisement perspective. To put it in perspective, a program on dutch TV that pulls around 100K viewers is likely to get cancelled in the foreseeable future. And that is for a country of 16 million. So 100K worldwide is really not very much at all. So tournaments that don't pull anywhere near that and are more in the 10K-ish range of viewers, yet still promise huge pricemoney are simply not viable from an economic perspective. It seems that right now there are a lot of people trying to get into E-sports, in the hope of holding out somehow until in blows up big and then cash in. Kind of a bubble, not entirely unlike the IT-bubble of the late 90's (where a lot of online companies had no actual way to make money). Wouldn't be surprised if most of the the tournaments that are mentioned here will disappear somewhere in the next year what kind of a business promises money that it doesn't have? Your prize pool is supposed to be locked in along with your yearly budget. That spending budget is to be LOCKED with only leeway for emergencies and disasters. You can definitely predict a minimum amount of spectators that you can draw varied revenue from, but then you have the sponsors who give you a fixed revenue. Even after the prize payouts and all your spending, you're supposed to be turning a profit. If the money isnt there, then your business is just one big joke. That is poor management. The prize money that you offer HAS to be viable or you're screwed. Despite MLG having a small prize pool for this year, I applaud them for being consistent and flat out telling people 'we have a fixed budget that we can't change.' Because of this they can payout their players properly and look at the excess cash as something that they can put towards next year. | ||
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