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On January 13 2012 17:41 OPL3SA2 wrote:Show nested quote +On January 13 2012 17:08 inamorato wrote:On January 12 2012 19:18 Phobbers wrote:
So, I have a big issue with how FXOboss went about this. Going through his blogs, he went on a huge panic with a post ~4 hours ago acting as if the world is ending. I understand wanting your players to get payed what they won but Providence was barely 2 months ago? 50K is not a small sum, the time needed to process it and get all the legal aspects out of the way probably take a lot longer than the regular 5k payout. FXOboss should be happy Leenock got payed this swiftly after seeing how slow some other organizations are with smaller prizes. It seems to me he overreacted hardcore and caused unneeded drama.
edit; english derp herp Why should players have to wait for organizers to round up the money. This is directly what I stated in my last post. Tournament organizers should be going into tournaments with the checks already written and legal work as far as tax goes grounded. It shouldn't be an individual organism that runs on revenue hitting a certain safe place before pay out can be made. I don't care if 0 people attend and they take a 500 thousand dollar loss. The bottom line is these tournaments boast huge prize pools but when the time comes to collect the money its like pulling a fucking wisdom tooth. MLG claims immediate pay, yet it took over 2 months for Leenock and public outcry to receive the money. I also doubt Sundance had the check written out and Boss just so happened to post and wow it was all so magical how everything came together. No I don't believe that. It's not just MLG. This has been going on for 10 years since CPL started 100k prize pools for 1.6 and not paying. All I am trying to establish is organizers need to ahead of time take into consideration every cent that is going to be paid out, and subtract that from the expected revenue and immediately pay. And if the expected revenue is a complete farce, it doesn't matter because the organizers should already have checks written out linked to a bank account that has the prize money they are promising. Listen while most can agree with the majority of what you are saying, the tone is all off I think. At the end of the day, it's a burgeoning scene with limited funds. Everyone is just trying to get by and the people you are vilifying are exactly the ones putting in the hard work and supporting the game, trying to take care of the players, and not making much money in the process themselves. According to the chart, only ESL should be taken to task because over 2 years basically means the money doesn't exist any longer. To every other organization, I say kudos. It takes over 8 months for the NFL to pay out Superbowl bonuses to owners so why should this be held to a different standard? Ryan
While sure you say Kudos but all of the people paying 70 dollars for a player pass for MLG, or whatever the price may be for any other event and then being stuck when it's time to collect what the fuck do you say to that?
You and all of these sheep with this "growing the scene" non sense. If MLG didn't have a pocket do you think they would be so concerned about the "scene". The answer is no.
These may be tournaments but they almost every tournament is also a business model. Without the opportunity to develop a following and a revenue do you think any of these tournaments would exist?
It isn't just MLG they aren't anymore guilty than their counter parts but you suggest "everyone is just trying to get by". You can't even comprehend the amount of money that a tournament like MLG or Dreamhack receives be it through player passes, golden packages, and all of the advertising. It is a sum that could pay for the player proceeds over 10 fold, and its only a 3-4 day tournament at most. That means LESS money going into infrastructure fees, staff fees, isp fees, etc so on and so forth. What exactly does MLG do for the players?
Then you take into consideration a tournament like the GSL that is tournament that runs for months on end consecutively into another tournament followed by another and by another. Do you hear any complaints about pay outs from them? No. Because they handle their business promptly and appropriately. The majority of the foreign scene has turned into vampires lusting over money. They need to take a stern look at the GSL or even towards the Brood War scene and try to understand how to develop a self sustaining business model, not a creature that lives from one event to the next.
The NFL reference is moot. It should be held to a different standard because the NFL for one is an established reputable organization that pays. Where you can count on the money being there when its said to be there. This 8 month reference I don't know where it comes from but it's irrelevant anyways. You can't compare a 90 year old sport to a 14 month old video game, its absurd.
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On January 13 2012 17:32 Phobbers wrote:Show nested quote +On January 13 2012 17:08 inamorato wrote:On January 12 2012 19:18 Phobbers wrote:
So, I have a big issue with how FXOboss went about this. Going through his blogs, he went on a huge panic with a post ~4 hours ago acting as if the world is ending. I understand wanting your players to get payed what they won but Providence was barely 2 months ago? 50K is not a small sum, the time needed to process it and get all the legal aspects out of the way probably take a lot longer than the regular 5k payout. FXOboss should be happy Leenock got payed this swiftly after seeing how slow some other organizations are with smaller prizes. It seems to me he overreacted hardcore and caused unneeded drama.
edit; english derp herp Why should players have to wait for organizers to round up the money. This is directly what I stated in my last post. Tournament organizers should be going into tournaments with the checks already written and legal work as far as tax goes grounded. It shouldn't be an individual organism that runs on revenue hitting a certain safe place before pay out can be made. I don't care if 0 people attend and they take a 500 thousand dollar loss. The bottom line is these tournaments boast huge prize pools but when the time comes to collect the money its like pulling a fucking wisdom tooth. MLG claims immediate pay, yet it took over 2 months for Leenock and public outcry to receive the money. I also doubt Sundance had the check written out and Boss just so happened to post and wow it was all so magical how everything came together. No I don't believe that. It's not just MLG. This has been going on for 10 years since CPL started 100k prize pools for 1.6 and not paying. All I am trying to establish is organizers need to ahead of time take into consideration every cent that is going to be paid out, and subtract that from the expected revenue and immediately pay. And if the expected revenue is a complete farce, it doesn't matter because the organizers should already have checks written out linked to a bank account that has the prize money they are promising. But the thing is, MLG does pay immediately. This was the first occasion, at least since SC2 has been part of the pro circuit, that MLG did not pay the player on the spot. I understand your case of wanting players to get payed on the day they win, and I agree completely. But I feel FXOboss just blew up way too hard and caused way too much drama about it. If anything other organizations need to take a page from MLG's book and pay in a timely fashion.
It isn't necessarily that I believe they need to be paid on the day of the winnings no exceptions but I believe these tournament should formally announce when the pay out will be. The reason I use immediate with MLG is because that's the standard they've held themselves to.
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On January 13 2012 01:37 HuK wrote:
us players need to get all gangsta and shit. im listening to 2pac gangsta party and gangsta paradise at the same time, got me all heated and shit. fuck dis shit we need to get together ride out, then put some motha fukin work on these punk ass tournaments like some o g (original gamers). piss in bottles on stage and shitw hen they dont let us go to bathroom break.
FEEL ME MOTHA FUCKAS?
Mah nigga.. i feel dat shit.
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i'm so glad i came about this thread. it's sad, but it feels good to know the truth.
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On January 13 2012 17:32 Phobbers wrote:
But the thing is, MLG does pay immediately. This was the first occasion, at least since SC2 has been part of the pro circuit, that MLG did not pay the player on the spot. I understand your case of wanting players to get payed on the day they win, and I agree completely. But I feel FXOboss just blew up way too hard and caused way too much drama about it. If anything other organizations need to take a page from MLG's book and pay in a timely fashion.
The problem is if noone says nothing nothing is changed and the process becomes status quo. But if people crucify him(Boss) for calling out tournaments you do a disservice to people trying to get their guys paid. I mean honestly outside of the players and people affilated with teams how many really even thought there was such a ridiculous time frame to pay out people?
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On January 13 2012 01:37 HuK wrote:
us players need to get all gangsta and shit. im listening to 2pac gangsta party and gangsta paradise at the same time, got me all heated and shit. fuck dis shit we need to get together ride out, then put some motha fukin work on these punk ass tournaments like some o g (original gamers). piss in bottles on stage and shitw hen they dont let us go to bathroom break.
FEEL ME MOTHA FUCKAS?
Huk, gangsta as fuck. and shit.
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MLG/GSL/HSC/NASL only legit sc2 tournaments? Thoughts?
Major tournaments such as IPL, Dreamhack, IEM, anything ESL orientated all have history of not paying players or paying extremely late? How can they be considered major tournaments?
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I think the MLG stats need an update.
Leenock didn't receive his money for a very long time...
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On January 14 2012 04:51 MrCash wrote:
I think the MLG stats need an update.
Leenock didn't receive his money for a very long time...
2 months isn't a very long time, especially compared to other tourneys w/ much small prize pools. This was the first time MLG was "slow" on a payment. Incontrol has said on sotg that MLG will actually chase you down to make sure you get your money before you leave. Hopefully this doesn't occur again/much more from MLG, and I doubt it will.
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its just not ok to advertise with big prize pools and then let the players wait for ages to get their money. there is no point in defending that bullshit. and if they cant change it, they need to change the whole sponsor-payment-model. it cant be that the RISK in this whole business model is on the players shoulders. if something goes wrong and the income of an invent doesnt match up the promised price money, then the sponsors or the turnament organizers should be the ones who are f*cked, not the players. end of discussion.
people who say something is ok because its always been like this are the reason this fucking planet is doomed. stupid brainwashed idiots.
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I do not think the MLG Nationals prize money is an issue yet. Getting 50K out of the country and into Korea is not something one can do overnight. I think FXOboss might be burning bridges here, calling out MLG unnecessarily like that.
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FXOBoss definitely over-reacted with MLG. Both Idra, Incontrol and Huk and Tyler have said that MLG are one of the best tournaments when it comes to paying ..on time. Idra said something along the lines of: "Yeah they actually chase you down and shove the check down your throat.. it's kind of cool." Also in the same SOTG, he said "ESL is one of the tournaments that you should go to; like they wait a year or more.. but they will pay you so at least I can give them that much." This is probably one of the few instances MLG has slipped. Furthermore even back in '09 during the WoW and CS days, people complained about prize money (especially ESL's events) but have agreed that MLG pays in a very timely manner.
TLDR: FXOBoss overreacted, MLG had a 2-3 year good-standing reputation until this incident.
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On January 13 2012 17:22 mTwTT1 wrote:
y does everyone say that whenever i make a post, so much hate
If it makes you feel better, I've liked you since I read your posts on mechanical keyboards and you actually knew what you were talking about :D and to get back on topic oh you huk :D
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On January 13 2012 18:32 inamorato wrote:Show nested quote +On January 13 2012 17:41 OPL3SA2 wrote:On January 13 2012 17:08 inamorato wrote:On January 12 2012 19:18 Phobbers wrote:
So, I have a big issue with how FXOboss went about this. Going through his blogs, he went on a huge panic with a post ~4 hours ago acting as if the world is ending. I understand wanting your players to get payed what they won but Providence was barely 2 months ago? 50K is not a small sum, the time needed to process it and get all the legal aspects out of the way probably take a lot longer than the regular 5k payout. FXOboss should be happy Leenock got payed this swiftly after seeing how slow some other organizations are with smaller prizes. It seems to me he overreacted hardcore and caused unneeded drama.
edit; english derp herp Why should players have to wait for organizers to round up the money. This is directly what I stated in my last post. Tournament organizers should be going into tournaments with the checks already written and legal work as far as tax goes grounded. It shouldn't be an individual organism that runs on revenue hitting a certain safe place before pay out can be made. I don't care if 0 people attend and they take a 500 thousand dollar loss. The bottom line is these tournaments boast huge prize pools but when the time comes to collect the money its like pulling a fucking wisdom tooth. MLG claims immediate pay, yet it took over 2 months for Leenock and public outcry to receive the money. I also doubt Sundance had the check written out and Boss just so happened to post and wow it was all so magical how everything came together. No I don't believe that. It's not just MLG. This has been going on for 10 years since CPL started 100k prize pools for 1.6 and not paying. All I am trying to establish is organizers need to ahead of time take into consideration every cent that is going to be paid out, and subtract that from the expected revenue and immediately pay. And if the expected revenue is a complete farce, it doesn't matter because the organizers should already have checks written out linked to a bank account that has the prize money they are promising. Listen while most can agree with the majority of what you are saying, the tone is all off I think. At the end of the day, it's a burgeoning scene with limited funds. Everyone is just trying to get by and the people you are vilifying are exactly the ones putting in the hard work and supporting the game, trying to take care of the players, and not making much money in the process themselves. According to the chart, only ESL should be taken to task because over 2 years basically means the money doesn't exist any longer. To every other organization, I say kudos. It takes over 8 months for the NFL to pay out Superbowl bonuses to owners so why should this be held to a different standard? Ryan While sure you say Kudos but all of the people paying 70 dollars for a player pass for MLG, or whatever the price may be for any other event and then being stuck when it's time to collect what the fuck do you say to that? You and all of these sheep with this "growing the scene" non sense. If MLG didn't have a pocket do you think they would be so concerned about the "scene". The answer is no. These may be tournaments but they almost every tournament is also a business model. Without the opportunity to develop a following and a revenue do you think any of these tournaments would exist? It isn't just MLG they aren't anymore guilty than their counter parts but you suggest "everyone is just trying to get by". You can't even comprehend the amount of money that a tournament like MLG or Dreamhack receives be it through player passes, golden packages, and all of the advertising. It is a sum that could pay for the player proceeds over 10 fold, and its only a 3-4 day tournament at most. That means LESS money going into infrastructure fees, staff fees, isp fees, etc so on and so forth. What exactly does MLG do for the players? Then you take into consideration a tournament like the GSL that is tournament that runs for months on end consecutively into another tournament followed by another and by another. Do you hear any complaints about pay outs from them? No. Because they handle their business promptly and appropriately. The majority of the foreign scene has turned into vampires lusting over money. They need to take a stern look at the GSL or even towards the Brood War scene and try to understand how to develop a self sustaining business model, not a creature that lives from one event to the next. The NFL reference is moot. It should be held to a different standard because the NFL for one is an established reputable organization that pays. Where you can count on the money being there when its said to be there. This 8 month reference I don't know where it comes from but it's irrelevant anyways. You can't compare a 90 year old sport to a 14 month old video game, its absurd.
Just commenting on your notion that league/organizations make money from their live events. You sir.. are mistaken  Very little money is made from those live events. This is why, for MLG to survive, they must secure Venture Capital of millions of dollars. It costs large large chunks of money to run those events. I can tell you.. just to rent the space that IEM did in NYC 2 years ago for the IEM NA Finals.. was a LOT of money. That does not even tough the overhead and cost to get the admins there, pay them and feed them.
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On January 14 2012 11:21 csn_JohnClark wrote:Just commenting on your notion that league/organizations make money from their live events. You sir.. are mistaken Very little money is made from those live events. This is why, for MLG to survive, they must secure Venture Capital of millions of dollars. It costs large large chunks of money to run those events. I can tell you.. just to rent the space that IEM did in NYC 2 years ago for the IEM NA Finals.. was a LOT of money. That does not even tough the overhead and cost to get the admins there, pay them and feed them.
Unless you work there and actually have info on their fundings, I don't want you making drastic claims such as: "This business is not making any money and they've been doing this for 3 years and continues to improve every year with innovations ... but they're still not making money."
You're forgetting the amount of money made from sponsors and that SC2 isn't the only game that goes on at these events...
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Sorry for resurrecting an old thread, but ESL is at it again http://www.cadred.org/News/Article/167135/
It is no secret to say that there is a backlog of payments when it comes to ESL competitions. However, today Cadred was sent correspondence from ESL employees that confirms that the payments are being delayed to divert funds into running other events. The correspondence, sent to players awaiting the EPS Nordic pay out, is the latest in a long line of back-tracking and excuses from ESL. The competition in question began 16 months ago and promises have been made for a pay out on several occasions. The main issue that there seems to be is that the lack of payment to CS:S competition winners seems to be delayed to fund bigger events that do not have the CS:S game on the ticket. Many disgruntled CS:S players have been coming together in private to discuss a potential boycott of ESL competitions on this basis. The latest piece of correspondence read: Show nested quote +We are totally aware that there are still two season of EPS Nordic unpaid, and we really regret the long delay. So first of all please be reassured that we will send the money as soon as we can. ESL has always paid out all prizes, even though sometimes with a lot of delay.
Concerning the exact date, I cannot really give you one, yet.
Because of the high running costs for our current events in Kiev, Sao Paulo and Hanover (all within less than 2 months) it is rather unlikely that accounting can free up enough liquidity to pay your money before CeBIT is over.
Again, we are really sorry for the delay and hope for your continued patience. Previous e-mails to players from October, November and December also pointed to other events taking precedent over settling these debts. The ESL have declined to give us any additional comment on the matter.
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(I hope this is a good enough reason for a bump, if not, sorry, I didn't know what else to do.)
The competo/xilence cups are, in my experience, not paying out prize money. I won a 200$ cup 7 months ago, gave my paypal to an admin as is the norm, and then waited.
After receiving nothing after 6/7 weeks I contacted them (tournament admin) again, was given an email I should write to, did that, waited, nothing, not even a reply, even after sending another email in the unlikely event they may have overlooked it.
Then I contacted the competo account on TL, asked for help, he gave me another email and suggested maybe I should contact facebook.com/competo. I wrote to both, and waited, again the same thing. No reply, nothing at all.
Finally I talked to the same admin that I had talked to after winning the cup (Seedsystem), this time he acts more friendly and tells me something will be done - says he didn't work there at that time, maybe it's a different person using the account, maybe it's bullshit I can't know - same evening I contact him he replys he's sorry and there is nothing he can do, and quotes what some mystery man that I may not speak to said:
wegen dem hast du schon mal gefragt. der hat auch schon wen anders von uns gefragt und der bekommt jedes mal die selbe antwort. er hat sich damals, trotz meiner aufforderung, erst monate später gemeldet. wer dann nach 5 monaten ankommt, der brauch auch nix erwarten
in english
You've already asked me about him before. He's already asked others of us as well and he'll always get the same answer. He, contrary to my requests, contacted us months after the event. He who arrives 5 months afterwards, doesn't need to expect anything.
This is a complete and utter bullshit excuse for not paying because:
1. They never even fucking replied, I never got any sort of answer what was going on with my prize money.
2. Nobody ever asked me for any sort of contact information, but I did give it to them right after the tournament ended. I can't prove it (I didn't think of screenshotting a bnet chat, now I know  ), but I can prove having played in a massive amount of smaller tournaments and winning them as well, point being I know the procedure and it's highly unlikely for me to not have given them my paypal right after the tournament was finished.
3. The first contact that I can prove was like I said approximately 6 weeks after the tournament ended, and of course the multiple emails I sent after that (yay gmail storage). 5 months after the event would be in december, that being the time when I was in contact with the TL competo account. Which was way after I had tried contacting them before.
And finally 4. Why should it even matter how late I contact them? I never sent an email saying I didn't want the prize money, so I fail to see why the person in charge of payments thinks he doesn't have to pay because he has waited a certain amount of time while doing absolutely nothing.
In retrospect, I admit I shouldn't have waited so long between sending emails / asking people, but that doesn't change the fact that I am in the right, and there is absolutely no legitimate reason for competo to not pay me my prize money as I see it.
Didn't know what else to do, so I'm posting about it here.
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I can't remember exactly, but wasn't there some drama around Competo before already? I think some things did go wrong and they didn't send hardware prizes to players or something.
I think there's a reason you don't hear anything from them anymore, sadly I wouldn't expect to receive your money from them.
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EPT
