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I understand the grief of player who actually rely on this for living. but advocating for a governing body is nevery good
we then have to set one up. Who sits on it? how many koreans how many foreigners? how is it financed? through teams paying dues? through % cuts of winnings? would this mean reduced prize pools?
how would the rules be formed? who would vote yes or no? what if the community/players really hate a rule or regulation what are their options?
In my experience a "governing body" is never a good thing unless strict rules and regulations ON THE BODY are setup. These things in just about every aspect of life turn into HUGE monolithic far overreaching bodies that often strangle whatever they are trying to help.
It may start now with making sure players get paid, a very noble cause. but what happens when there is another Stephano/Col/MyM situation? now theyll try and save contract disputes. then theyll limit who can enter a contrtact when and how much they need to be paid.
in my expirience if they community/citizenry/members hold the organizations responsible we can handle these problems in COMMUNITY. posts like these are a perfect example of how the community can take action in exactly 1 week this post has garnered 77 pages worth of responses. Pros coming out and saying so and so didnt or so n so did pay.
these companies and organizations do not want their names tarnished, so a site like TL.net which is home to TONS of sc2/Esports fans and advocates and bright people can swing A LOT of power especially when the pros arent seperated from the rest of us they are PART of the community. so its not rumor or speculation we get it right from the guy whose waiting to see $$$ deposited into his account.
i think a self-governing community is something we need to advocate for rather than a Kespa or a new EU or parliament for sc2 or anything else along those lines.
WE THE COMMUNITY HOLD THE POWER!!!!
also...i hope all the players who are waiting to receive their money Its tough enough for me living paycheck to paycheck i can only imagine winning your paycheck and not getting it for MONTHS on end. GL to all of you!
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That this topic exploded within one day (November 1st) just shows that it struck a cord in anybody involved. I skimmed through the majority of the player's and organizer's/CEO's statements. Also I had a few things coming to mind from my personal experience as an assistant student at a major German company and from my impressions I gained from following ESport for the last 13 years.
First of all I think players should not be concerned with getting their payment. As I see it every person involved has one specific job and should devote 100% of his free time to it. Gamers should practice and participate and they should be able to delegate their needs for payment and receiving prize pool to a manager/team management.
Based on the above mentioned host/organizers should not blame players for their neglect on sending their bank account or private information. First of all gamers are concerned with their gaming and want to invest most of their time to it and not bother too much about other things. This way I think it would be important to handle the payment in different ways and most important more personally.
In most posts I read I didn't read one word about phone calls or personal meetings. Again this might be down to a) this is an internet based business and b) gamers don't care/are not going to phone somebody. In the company I work for payment is handled via mail and email, but in case of an emergency or delay people are contacted by phone. The biggest problem I see here is the "indirect" communication between the parties. How so? Is there no way to reach organizers and hosts via phone or skype? I would like to hear from the players if that would not be possible. And if it wouldn't you could consider getting something like this organized.
The point of this rant is this: Contact via mail is indirect in that it causes further delay. A phone call (even skype) would be more straight forward. Secondly, especially on the progamer's part, you should consider management. I have no insight into esport management, maybe Grubby or somebody else with a proper management (which also concerns itself with payment) could make a statement.
Two last insights about the commonness of payment delays: 1.) ClanBase owes Saints and Sinners money for a pretty old Unreal Tournament competition (to point out that it's not even the big players and the big games!). 2.) Some of the companies my employer works with owe him up to 30k €.
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On November 08 2011 00:20 Vindubs wrote:
I understand the grief of player who actually rely on this for living. but advocating for a governing body is nevery good
we then have to set one up. Who sits on it? how many koreans how many foreigners? how is it financed? through teams paying dues? through % cuts of winnings? would this mean reduced prize pools?
how would the rules be formed? who would vote yes or no? what if the community/players really hate a rule or regulation what are their options?
In my experience a "governing body" is never a good thing unless strict rules and regulations ON THE BODY are setup. These things in just about every aspect of life turn into HUGE monolithic far overreaching bodies that often strangle whatever they are trying to help.
It may start now with making sure players get paid, a very noble cause. but what happens when there is another Stephano/Col/MyM situation? now theyll try and save contract disputes. then theyll limit who can enter a contrtact when and how much they need to be paid.
in my expirience if they community/citizenry/members hold the organizations responsible we can handle these problems in COMMUNITY. posts like these are a perfect example of how the community can take action in exactly 1 week this post has garnered 77 pages worth of responses. Pros coming out and saying so and so didnt or so n so did pay.
these companies and organizations do not want their names tarnished, so a site like TL.net which is home to TONS of sc2/Esports fans and advocates and bright people can swing A LOT of power especially when the pros arent seperated from the rest of us they are PART of the community. so its not rumor or speculation we get it right from the guy whose waiting to see $$$ deposited into his account.
i think a self-governing community is something we need to advocate for rather than a Kespa or a new EU or parliament for sc2 or anything else along those lines.
WE THE COMMUNITY HOLD THE POWER!!!!
also...i hope all the players who are waiting to receive their money Its tough enough for me living paycheck to paycheck i can only imagine winning your paycheck and not getting it for MONTHS on end. GL to all of you!
This. A governing body might be a positive thing if all it did was made sure price money were paid in time. However that most likely isn't the only thing its going to do. Its simply going to expand it self, and disallow the market to work. The solution to the problem is more information about tournaments and their willingnesss to pay in time. If they are not competetive in paying their price money in time, they will lose players, and perhaps viewers as well who are avoiding them of moral reasons.
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It might have been covered in the 70 pages I didn't read but why do the teams not handle all of this?
If I had a team I'd never want my players losing any sleep or time of this shit. I'd hound organizations like crazy if they didnt pay up. It's my view of team managers that they are very "connected", organizing and active, they should be miles ahead of the general gamer when it comes to putting pressure on organisation to pay up.
I'd love to hear Scoots take on this.
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That's not a governing body but a guild. See Screen Actors Guild.
Overall well run, organizes strikes and doesn't afraid of anything.
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Players should boycott famous events which do not pay.
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On November 10 2011 05:08 Laeon wrote:
Players should boycott famous events which do not pay.
That's fine, if there was an impact from one less participant.
Unfortunately, that is not the case.
Because an organizer just needs to settle outstanding dues to keep an event going.
A more practical approach would be for TL to have a database of pro-gaming friendly lawyers/solicitors that progamers can refer to for settling bad debts.
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LOL
"sh*t Cloud is making a post about us not paying, pay him now instead of 2 years later or never so that we won't look as bad!"
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On November 07 2011 10:45 Silidons wrote:Show nested quote +On November 07 2011 09:00 TotalBiscuit wrote:On November 07 2011 08:57 dadde wrote:
His first post.he said that he HAS been a pro for a yeah. Mb i read it badly. Yes, you kinda did. Has would be the past tense, but it does not mean he is now not a progamer. Has isn't really correct, it should be "I have been a progamer for a year". Has is used when referring to someone else in the third person "he has been a progamer for a year". If you want to communicate that you are not a progamer anymore, you should be using "I was a progamer for a year". except for "i can has cheeseburgers" 
This made me laugh pretty hard 
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I think it isn't about them not paying up altogether its more about not giving set timeframes. Or assurances and also taking a very long time to pay up. I recently got my '$600' from IEM. After I sent them my bank details 3 times at specific requests. Unfortunately it came into my account as only $530 aud though Exchange rate american to aud was 1:1 at time of transfer. So did they send me $600 usd value in euros as its a German company? If so why was prize advertised in usd?
To be honest I was just happy I got it in just about 2 months compared to the 12 month average id heard about IEM average... perhaps ESL is trying to fix their image in this regard but a bit more info and correspondence would be much appreciated.
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SC2 does have an authoritative body for its eSport scene: Blizzard.
Blizzard wanted more control over the eSport surrounding its game, and it has pursued the legal means to have this. I say Blizzard needs to take action here and revoke the "licenses" it gives to tournaments that consistently fail to make the proper payments to their winners. If a tournament has had its "license" revoked, then you know it's a bad tournament and you move on.
50%, 60%, 90%, it doesn't matter how many tournaments are doing this, if we have to get rid of most of them for this reason, then that's what we need to do. Prize money is huge for the players, especially the ones on smaller teams that don't get huge sponsorship money to get them salaries. They need the money to pay expenses. And if SC2 gets a reputation of not being a reliable career move, then we won't encourage the best and brightest to play it. If we aren't seeing the very best, spectating will drop off and the eSport as a whole will likely decline.
Integrity is everything.
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On November 01 2011 05:39 Naniwa wrote:Show nested quote +On November 01 2011 05:38 D.Devil wrote:On November 01 2011 05:23 Naniwa wrote:On November 01 2011 05:10 D.Devil wrote:On November 01 2011 04:41 Naniwa wrote:On November 01 2011 01:21 D.Devil wrote:
This isn't a recent problem but something that haunts esports since its early days. The CPL didn't ever pay some teams the prize money for events in 2002 and 2003 and still continued to live on for quite a while.
Nonetheless, even it might seem counter-intuitive at first, blacklists and publicly calling out organizations won't help anyone. Hosting a big event requires a lot of work, and the prize money is a rather small (yet important) aspect overall. So don't expect anyone to be there to just "replace" today's organizers if they are forced to quit. Even if they're at fault, there's no point in boycotting as it'll only make everyone wait longer or not receive any money at all. So it's not really coincidence that most teams prefer to be quiet as long as the organizers play fair (which the CPL ultimately didn't, so it was boycotted and forced to quit after all). funny that you are talking since Your wc3 team Hoorai scammed me off 600 euros you piece of...... hi :o You know very well that I didn't handle the payments at hoorai and it wasn't my responsibility to take care of that. Also we always treated -and paiid- you well. But anyway, that's many years ago (and certainly hoorai was far from perfect).. tbh I don't even remember if you're right, but it may very well be. In any case: I'm sorry, dude. I just don't see why you even bring this up now as I don't feel like it's related to my post. (and I believe calling me a piece of shit isn't the way to go.) My point still stands: By creating blacklists and boycotting events, you only make things worse. This isn't the solution to this problem. Of course, something needs to be done about it, but I don't like that the majority of people here believes that you achieve that by punishing ESL, ESWC and others. you think i would have some fake grudge against you? for fck sake get real, you were co owner of the team so stop tossing away responsibility pay up or gtfo Sorry, I didn't mean it like that - it came across wrong. It's just because I don't remember if it's due to the contract modification we agreed upon or your last salaries... but it doesn't really matter, I believe you, really. Like I said: sorry. I hope you agree with me that we at least paid most of your money. It's not like we just "scammed" you. Anyway, I'm honestly glad to see you're doing well in SC2. Best of luck, man. thanks friend!!!! i hope your happy with my 600 euro that you never gave me!!!! i dont know what you would call witholding money but i would call it scamming
Why do I get the feeling that D.Devil is the "anonymous source" of ESFI world?...
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On December 10 2011 06:58 NKsc2 wrote:Show nested quote +On November 01 2011 05:39 Naniwa wrote:On November 01 2011 05:38 D.Devil wrote:On November 01 2011 05:23 Naniwa wrote:On November 01 2011 05:10 D.Devil wrote:On November 01 2011 04:41 Naniwa wrote:On November 01 2011 01:21 D.Devil wrote:
This isn't a recent problem but something that haunts esports since its early days. The CPL didn't ever pay some teams the prize money for events in 2002 and 2003 and still continued to live on for quite a while.
Nonetheless, even it might seem counter-intuitive at first, blacklists and publicly calling out organizations won't help anyone. Hosting a big event requires a lot of work, and the prize money is a rather small (yet important) aspect overall. So don't expect anyone to be there to just "replace" today's organizers if they are forced to quit. Even if they're at fault, there's no point in boycotting as it'll only make everyone wait longer or not receive any money at all. So it's not really coincidence that most teams prefer to be quiet as long as the organizers play fair (which the CPL ultimately didn't, so it was boycotted and forced to quit after all). funny that you are talking since Your wc3 team Hoorai scammed me off 600 euros you piece of...... hi :o You know very well that I didn't handle the payments at hoorai and it wasn't my responsibility to take care of that. Also we always treated -and paiid- you well. But anyway, that's many years ago (and certainly hoorai was far from perfect).. tbh I don't even remember if you're right, but it may very well be. In any case: I'm sorry, dude. I just don't see why you even bring this up now as I don't feel like it's related to my post. (and I believe calling me a piece of shit isn't the way to go.) My point still stands: By creating blacklists and boycotting events, you only make things worse. This isn't the solution to this problem. Of course, something needs to be done about it, but I don't like that the majority of people here believes that you achieve that by punishing ESL, ESWC and others. you think i would have some fake grudge against you? for fck sake get real, you were co owner of the team so stop tossing away responsibility pay up or gtfo Sorry, I didn't mean it like that - it came across wrong. It's just because I don't remember if it's due to the contract modification we agreed upon or your last salaries... but it doesn't really matter, I believe you, really. Like I said: sorry. I hope you agree with me that we at least paid most of your money. It's not like we just "scammed" you. Anyway, I'm honestly glad to see you're doing well in SC2. Best of luck, man. thanks friend!!!! i hope your happy with my 600 euro that you never gave me!!!! i dont know what you would call witholding money but i would call it scamming Why do I get the feeling that D.Devil is the "anonymous source" of ESFI world?...
Mind = blown.
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FXOBoSs just posted this on his blog:
No Leenock has not received his funds from his MLG win.
He has not received the trophy either (unsure on what the deal is there, its not so hard to dhl things to Korea).
Note: MLG is not so much guilty of anything other than being slow. I have contacted sundance about this, he told me he would update me 48 hours ago and did not.
Which to me was a little strange, and reason to blog.
Keep the pitchforks in the shed and remember I wear flame retardant clothing and have no heart.
edit: I am a little bit sick of lack of transparency from e-sports organisations. Not specifically MLG.
On top of this, I am tired of other organisations making me have to play therapist to players. Leenock is very upset by this, and I have to calm him down and help the reputation of a company that does not belong to me. Unfortunately, I do not have a psychology degree.
http://fxoboss.tumblr.com/
Poor Leenock 
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On January 12 2012 17:35 Netsky wrote:FXOBoSs just posted this on his blog: Show nested quote +No Leenock has not received his funds from his MLG win.
He has not received the trophy either (unsure on what the deal is there, its not so hard to dhl things to Korea).
Note: MLG is not so much guilty of anything other than being slow. I have contacted sundance about this, he told me he would update me 48 hours ago and did not.
Which to me was a little strange, and reason to blog.
Keep the pitchforks in the shed and remember I wear flame retardant clothing and have no heart.
edit: I am a little bit sick of lack of transparency from e-sports organisations. Not specifically MLG.
On top of this, I am tired of other organisations making me have to play therapist to players. Leenock is very upset by this, and I have to calm him down and help the reputation of a company that does not belong to me. Unfortunately, I do not have a psychology degree.
http://fxoboss.tumblr.com/Poor Leenock
40 minutes later after FXO Boss posted this:
As I had stated previously, MLG was just being slow.
After the huff and puff of the blog, I have been informed that as of now, the trophy and kingsize novelty cheque has been couriered to Leenock, and that money should be processed in 4-8 days.
I appreciate MLG’s efforts on this and apologise for the drama.
As stated to someone on twitter, sometimes its the only way to get the appropriate reaction.
I know that Leenock will now have a smile on his face. In return, schedule pending, I will most probably send Leenock to the next MLG live event.
Peace
Boss
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Hahaah its just so typical when something doesnt get paid, there is always someone else to blame when you ask for the prize...., personally I dont care that much whos to blame because organizations just shouldnt do business with unreliable people that they then have to blame for not delivering something. So I blame the organization straight up. By the way www.cyberarena.tv theres one example of a site that likes running tournaments but paying is a whole different story again!
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Wow I had no idea tracking down prize money was this hard. I'm sometimes in a similar situations trying to get grants and scholarship money that funds and groups have told me I would be receiving. I can understand how frusturating this can be because I've usually spent or atleast budgeted the money.
Anyways, good to see that organizations seem to be paying up in response to the inital post and then other problems seem to be getting resolved aswell.
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So, I have a big issue with how FXOboss went about this. Going through his blogs, he went on a huge panic with a post ~4 hours ago acting as if the world is ending. I understand wanting your players to get payed what they won but Providence was barely 2 months ago? 50K is not a small sum, the time needed to process it and get all the legal aspects out of the way probably take a lot longer than the regular 5k payout. FXOboss should be happy Leenock got payed this swiftly after seeing how slow some other organizations are with smaller prizes. It seems to me he overreacted hardcore and caused unneeded drama.
edit; english derp herp
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There really isn't any excuse for a business not to pay up strait away. They are the ones running the competition paying the players the prize money. If the Business is having problems getting the money from their sponsors that's not the players problem.
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This goes all the way back to CPL from Counter Strike. I'm curious if they ever paid their China events, because they don't have the nerve to host a tourney in America. They basically stole hundreds of thousands of dollars.
See thats the thing about Korean events. THEY PAY.
Everywhere else it is like a business endeavor where if they don't make out they don't pay. "I just spent all of our funds organizing the event for the computers, isp, and staff. Now HOPEFULLY we will bring back enough revenue by live viewers, package streams, and commercial advertisement.
It actually infuriates me that it takes huge organizations like MLG to be put on front street to get paid. Sundance and all the other tournament hosties want to get pictures with the Winners holding their big fake check but it's like you have to aggressively take a pair of channel locks to the person before you get your money.
If I was TL I would start a thread for every Tournament be it live in person or stream, as long as it is a featured stream on TL they should open a thread with a count down clock.
edit: The reason I suggest TL is because it is recognized with a sense of integrity and respect where many of the viewers directly watch the streams. Any message board would work just as long as it is in the light.
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EPT
