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On November 03 2011 20:35 aTnClouD wrote:
A small update: ESWC sent today a mail to all the players regarding payment details. They also stated they will pay within due time with no delay.
Good to hear! I often buy premium memberships to tournaments and I want to make sure that those tournaments are properly passing my money along to the players who earn it!
As long as we can remain civil and keep the torches and pitchforks on ice, these threads are very productive.
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On November 03 2011 22:16 Grubby wrote:Show nested quote +On November 03 2011 22:12 Thebbeuttiffulland wrote:On November 03 2011 21:34 Grettin wrote:On November 03 2011 19:00 Thebbeuttiffulland wrote:On November 03 2011 06:49 xi Tempest x wrote:On November 03 2011 04:08 Socke wrote:
im still waiting for more than 15600€ in total at the moment. im quite sure ill get the prizemoney
with the exception of these 3 tournaments though.
DSRACK Lan 400€ im quite sure by now not to ever see the money.
for DH Cointoss Tournament 10.000 SEK ~1100€ and ESL Torneo Campus Party 2000€ i think its not too unlikely that ill get it.
so if anyone has an idea on how to get payment from these events, feel free to pm me :D
Do you get a salary from aTn? 15600 is a lot of money :O no he plays for them for free :D Just FYI, it's not uncommon that teams/players doesn't receive salary at all or nothing fancy. They might just be in the team for the support, i.e flights to tournaments. On November 03 2011 19:49 Thebbeuttiffulland wrote:On November 03 2011 19:36 Satiinifi wrote:
Sent message to mr Shawn esl admin about wc3 enc 2010 prizes some days ago, no asnwer surprise surprise! Apparently 18months isnt enought time for esl to pay up. lol sending messages after 18 months seriously? Common sense would tell you that OF COURSE he has messaged/contacted them already. Why would you even think otherwise? -_- what i ment is if someone doesnt pay you for 18 months they are obviously not going to pay now That's not true, I got paid in 2010 for IEM 2007, about 3 years after I got 3rd in it. TT
lol wow that really sucks 
Poor Grubby.
At least you got paid...sorta.
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On November 03 2011 22:47 mki wrote:Show nested quote +On November 03 2011 22:45 Frankon wrote:On November 03 2011 20:45 Serashin wrote:
ESL is the only organisation wich requires premium accounts i/e payment to sign up for events in EU . the only equal in that metter is Dreamhack wich seems to have paid but ESL 1 year + no reason that this organistion should stay alive All mayor tournaments require for players to buy in.. MLG (player passes - enough to cover regular season price pool ^^  , NASL(open tournament qualifiers), IPL (open torunament qualifiers), ESL (the need of premium - havent check on that), DH (player passes)... and in some non-direct way TL (need to buy stupid NA account to play  jk) You don't need premium for the large ESL events such as Intel Extreme Masters.
Then correct me if im wrong....
The qualification for IEM is made through EPS... And to be in EPS you need a ESL premium account...
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Idra played EPS? Puma played EPS?
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On November 03 2011 23:08 tadL wrote:
Idra played EPS? Puma played EPS?
They are from NA... We are talking EU...
Germany, Spain, Poland and France are using EPS as a qualifier for IEM Kiev
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On November 03 2011 02:04 Hattori_Hanzo wrote:Show nested quote +On November 02 2011 21:14 Dexx wrote:
Hello,
I am a German laywer who is into gaming although I don't have time for that anymore.
Without knowing the contract you signed before playing for the mentioned companies (this contract could give the EPS a couple of month to pay!), I can support you with a broad guideline for the German EPS, if this EPS is in fact a German company and you contractually did not make any other law applicable:
If your contract is nothing special, you should write a "Mahnung" to the EPS:
"Hiermit fordere ich Sie auf, den fälligen Geldbetrag in Höhe von xy auf mein angegebenes Konto xy bis spätestens zum xy zur Überweisung bei Ihrer Bank anzuweisen.
Sollten Sie dieser Aufforderung nicht nachkommen, werde ich mich anwaltlicher Hilfe bedienen müssen, die Sie zu tragen hätten. Denn Sie befänden sich gemäß § 286 Abs. 1 BGB im Verzug."
If they don't do anything, you should go to a laywer.
This is no "Rechtsberatung". You will not have any claims, in case I did something wrong. I just wanted to help you out with your next step. In any case go to a laywer. Yes, everyone listen to the lawyer. No troll. Show nested quote +Google Translate wrote:
I hereby challenge you to the amount of cash due to my nominated account xy xy xy be advised no later than the transfer at your bank.
Should they fail to meet this request, I will have to use an attorney help, you would have to bear. Because if you were in accordance with § 286 para 1 BGB in default.
Don't use Google Translate, there are German speakers on here .
A human being translated:
I hereby demand that you instruct your bank to transfer the sum of $MONEY to my bank account ACCOUNT_INFO by DATE. If you do not honor this request, I will be forced to turn to legal help, the cost of which you will be liable for, as you would be in arrears as defined by § 286 paragraph 1 of the Bürgerliches Gesetzbuch (German civil law).
The dude does seem to be legit - that's more or less the language I was instructed to use when a company I did some freelance work for decided to cut costs by not paying me, and it got the money out of them.
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I really dislike how this thread evolved.
I like that this topic has brought up, and yes, something has to be done.
But its getting ridicolous that every Progamer is allowed to write here any numbers for any tournament with no background at all why they didnt get paid yet.
YES, maybe 70%-80% of the statements in here are right. But what about the other 20%-30% which suffer huge deficit of their Image. And e-sports is all about image, publicity and Advertisement.... (@Business - of course)
(not saying progamers are lieing but missunderstandings and mistakes [on both sides] happen, we are Human beeings!)
Please stop this Public bull**** and start some kind of Player/Team Union.
This stuff here doesnt help anyone in the long run.
Ps.: Sorry for my poor english.
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On November 01 2011 08:33 MichaelJLowell wrote:Hey, does anyone remember a certain video game developer and publisher claiming that they wanted complete control of the competitive tournament scene partially on the rationale that tracking all of these tournaments would allow the developer to police the scene and prevent these sort of shady practices from occurring? http://us.battle.net/sc2/en/forum/topic/374722123Show nested quote +Q: Why does Blizzard Entertainment require a license to run a tournament? A: There are several reasons why we require a license. The licensing system allows us to help monitor and promote ongoing events, and to encourage more players to participate in community tournaments. Additionally, the licensing system allows Blizzard to verify that our games are used properly and protects our intellectual property. Q: Are there any fees associated with acquiring a StarCraft II tournament license? A: Tournament licenses are generally free. To protect our players, we may require that organizers adhere to additional rules and regulations if the organizer charges entry fees and/or intends to pay out large cash prizes.Q: How do I get a StarCraft II tournament license? A: Fill out the tournament form located here. ( http://us.battle.net/sc2/en/community/esports/ ) Most general tournament requests will be approved instantly. Additional review time may be required before the approval of a license request, depending on the scope of the tournament and the number of incoming requests. We appreciate your patience! Oh, right. That was all bullshit. At worst, Blizzard knows about this stuff and doesn't really care. At best, they simply don't have the ability to proactively enforce any of these shady situations, a role that they took on willingly in the name of "protecting intellectual property". While I normally don't care for most of the things that the StarCraft II community gets loud, angry, and vocal over, I highly suggest you yell and scream about this one. The system should be designed to reward the players and having a system where sponsors and tournaments face no repercussion for withholding payment needs to be done away with as soon as possible. I know this has been a prevalent issue for competitive video games over the last fifteen years. Blizzard assumed the role of "lord and master", Blizzard assumed the power to deal with this crap, they're entitled to use it.
Oh hey look what Mikey found! This bears repeating because we definitely aren't putting enough pressure on Blizzard. They want to play god, they better play god.
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On November 03 2011 23:22 AmericanUmlaut wrote:Show nested quote +On November 03 2011 02:04 Hattori_Hanzo wrote:On November 02 2011 21:14 Dexx wrote:
Hello,
I am a German laywer who is into gaming although I don't have time for that anymore.
Without knowing the contract you signed before playing for the mentioned companies (this contract could give the EPS a couple of month to pay!), I can support you with a broad guideline for the German EPS, if this EPS is in fact a German company and you contractually did not make any other law applicable:
If your contract is nothing special, you should write a "Mahnung" to the EPS:
"Hiermit fordere ich Sie auf, den fälligen Geldbetrag in Höhe von xy auf mein angegebenes Konto xy bis spätestens zum xy zur Überweisung bei Ihrer Bank anzuweisen.
Sollten Sie dieser Aufforderung nicht nachkommen, werde ich mich anwaltlicher Hilfe bedienen müssen, die Sie zu tragen hätten. Denn Sie befänden sich gemäß § 286 Abs. 1 BGB im Verzug."
If they don't do anything, you should go to a laywer.
This is no "Rechtsberatung". You will not have any claims, in case I did something wrong. I just wanted to help you out with your next step. In any case go to a laywer. Yes, everyone listen to the lawyer. No troll. Google Translate wrote:
I hereby challenge you to the amount of cash due to my nominated account xy xy xy be advised no later than the transfer at your bank.
Should they fail to meet this request, I will have to use an attorney help, you would have to bear. Because if you were in accordance with § 286 para 1 BGB in default.
Don't use Google Translate, there are German speakers on here . Show nested quote +A human being translated:
I hereby demand that you instruct your bank to transfer the sum of $MONEY to my bank account ACCOUNT_INFO by DATE. If you do not honor this request, I will be forced to turn to legal help, the cost of which you will be liable for, as you would be in arrears as defined by § 286 paragraph 1 of the Bürgerliches Gesetzbuch (German civil law). The dude does seem to be legit - that's more or less the language I was instructed to use when a company I did some freelance work for decided to cut costs by not paying me, and it got the money out of them.
I like the wording of the letter, it is very non-threatening and yet to the point.
IANAL, but here's what every pro-gamer can do to include in their correspondence, before they join any tournament,
Dear [Tournament organisation contact],
Please understand, as a professional, I incur both living and travel expenses to attend tournaments such as yours, [Tournament name here].
As such, I feel it is reasonable to ask for cooperation with your organisation on what it considers a reasonable settlement period of the prize pool.
Regards,
[Your name here]
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On November 03 2011 23:35 Scereye wrote:
I really dislike how this thread evolved.
I like that this topic has brought up, and yes, something has to be done.
But its getting ridicolous that every Progamer is allowed to write here any numbers for any tournament with no background at all why they didnt get paid yet.
YES, maybe 70%-80% of the statements in here are right. But what about the other 20%-30% which suffer huge deficit of their Image. And e-sports is all about image, publicity and Advertisement.... (@Business - of course)
(not saying progamers are lieing but missunderstandings and mistakes [on both sides] happen, we are Human beeings!)
Please stop this Public bull**** and start some kind of Player/Team Union.
This stuff here doesnt help anyone in the long run.
Ps.: Sorry for my poor english.
This happens with everything, though. People take advantage of the fact that big companies don't want bad PR, and suck them dry of all the money they can get. Yes, it's a huge huge problem that players aren't getting paid for their services, but I just wish the people wouldn't capitalize on an opportunity to make a cheap buck.
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ESL seem horrid waiting so long to pay. i am not paying for my subscription anymore no respect.
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On November 03 2011 23:22 AmericanUmlaut wrote:Show nested quote +On November 03 2011 02:04 Hattori_Hanzo wrote:On November 02 2011 21:14 Dexx wrote:
Hello,
I am a German laywer who is into gaming although I don't have time for that anymore.
Without knowing the contract you signed before playing for the mentioned companies (this contract could give the EPS a couple of month to pay!), I can support you with a broad guideline for the German EPS, if this EPS is in fact a German company and you contractually did not make any other law applicable:
If your contract is nothing special, you should write a "Mahnung" to the EPS:
"Hiermit fordere ich Sie auf, den fälligen Geldbetrag in Höhe von xy auf mein angegebenes Konto xy bis spätestens zum xy zur Überweisung bei Ihrer Bank anzuweisen.
Sollten Sie dieser Aufforderung nicht nachkommen, werde ich mich anwaltlicher Hilfe bedienen müssen, die Sie zu tragen hätten. Denn Sie befänden sich gemäß § 286 Abs. 1 BGB im Verzug."
If they don't do anything, you should go to a laywer.
This is no "Rechtsberatung". You will not have any claims, in case I did something wrong. I just wanted to help you out with your next step. In any case go to a laywer. Yes, everyone listen to the lawyer. No troll. Google Translate wrote:
I hereby challenge you to the amount of cash due to my nominated account xy xy xy be advised no later than the transfer at your bank.
Should they fail to meet this request, I will have to use an attorney help, you would have to bear. Because if you were in accordance with § 286 para 1 BGB in default.
Don't use Google Translate, there are German speakers on here . Show nested quote +A human being translated:
I hereby demand that you instruct your bank to transfer the sum of $MONEY to my bank account ACCOUNT_INFO by DATE. If you do not honor this request, I will be forced to turn to legal help, the cost of which you will be liable for, as you would be in arrears as defined by § 286 paragraph 1 of the Bürgerliches Gesetzbuch (German civil law). The dude does seem to be legit - that's more or less the language I was instructed to use when a company I did some freelance work for decided to cut costs by not paying me, and it got the money out of them.
without going into greater detail that is pretty much standard law language. The correct translation of "fordere" would probably be "ask for" since it is german jurisdictial term which doesn't really translate into either demand or challenge. If someone hasn't paid something to you, you have a "Forderung" against them in German law speech, really no idea how to translate that.
Frankly i agree to some extent that after a certain amount of time you should send a strongly worded letter after consulting a lawyer in your vincinity. Simply because once you have sent an official letter like this, if they continue to not pay you they will have to pay interest after a certain point (30 days).
Note be sure to have everything correctly lined up on your end before you do this (meaning the necessary forms filled out and all details communicated to them in an official letter/email to the correct adress (meaning their buisness adress whereever that may be).
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On November 04 2011 00:23 Tula wrote:Show nested quote +On November 03 2011 23:22 AmericanUmlaut wrote:On November 03 2011 02:04 Hattori_Hanzo wrote:On November 02 2011 21:14 Dexx wrote:
Hello,
I am a German laywer who is into gaming although I don't have time for that anymore.
Without knowing the contract you signed before playing for the mentioned companies (this contract could give the EPS a couple of month to pay!), I can support you with a broad guideline for the German EPS, if this EPS is in fact a German company and you contractually did not make any other law applicable:
If your contract is nothing special, you should write a "Mahnung" to the EPS:
"Hiermit fordere ich Sie auf, den fälligen Geldbetrag in Höhe von xy auf mein angegebenes Konto xy bis spätestens zum xy zur Überweisung bei Ihrer Bank anzuweisen.
Sollten Sie dieser Aufforderung nicht nachkommen, werde ich mich anwaltlicher Hilfe bedienen müssen, die Sie zu tragen hätten. Denn Sie befänden sich gemäß § 286 Abs. 1 BGB im Verzug."
If they don't do anything, you should go to a laywer.
This is no "Rechtsberatung". You will not have any claims, in case I did something wrong. I just wanted to help you out with your next step. In any case go to a laywer. Yes, everyone listen to the lawyer. No troll. Google Translate wrote:
I hereby challenge you to the amount of cash due to my nominated account xy xy xy be advised no later than the transfer at your bank.
Should they fail to meet this request, I will have to use an attorney help, you would have to bear. Because if you were in accordance with § 286 para 1 BGB in default.
Don't use Google Translate, there are German speakers on here . A human being translated:
I hereby demand that you instruct your bank to transfer the sum of $MONEY to my bank account ACCOUNT_INFO by DATE. If you do not honor this request, I will be forced to turn to legal help, the cost of which you will be liable for, as you would be in arrears as defined by § 286 paragraph 1 of the Bürgerliches Gesetzbuch (German civil law). The dude does seem to be legit - that's more or less the language I was instructed to use when a company I did some freelance work for decided to cut costs by not paying me, and it got the money out of them. without going into greater detail that is pretty much standard law language. The correct translation of "fordere" would probably be "ask for" since it is german jurisdictial term which doesn't really translate into either demand or challenge. If someone hasn't paid something to you, you have a "Forderung" against them in German law speech, really no idea how to translate that. Frankly i agree to some extent that after a certain amount of time you should send a strongly worded letter after consulting a lawyer in your vincinity. Simply because once you have sent an official letter like this, if they continue to not pay you they will have to pay interest after a certain point (30 days). Note be sure to have everything correctly lined up on your end before you do this (meaning the necessary forms filled out and all details communicated to them in an official letter/email to the correct adress (meaning their buisness adress whereever that may be).
I think a "Forderung" in the legal sense would be a "claim" in English.
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iNcontroL
USA29055 Posts
would love for an update from socke.
Not fair to throw DH cointoss under the bus if it was in fact your team that is to blame!
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Would be cool if players or their organisations began adding money to the prize pool themselves similiar to a buyin in poker 
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On November 04 2011 01:12 iNcontroL wrote:
would love for an update from socke.
Not fair to throw DH cointoss under the bus if it was in fact your team that is to blame!
Darkforce apparently didn't get from dreamhack BYOC qualifier either. Maybe it's atn that's withholding their money?
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It would be interesting to maybe have a few pros contact Blizzard and let them know that a few of these tournaments are using their game to rip off players. I'd be curious to hear what they have to say about it.
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I am afraid I didnt have the stamina to read through all these pages and I appologise if its been suggested before. However;
We put stamps on everything. Organic food, fair trading etc. Why not put a "stamp" on tournaments that can garantee their prize money is already in place before the tournament starts?
What is needed is someone or some company/organisation that can oversee and administrate this ofc and that is not nothing ofc. What I mean is as following example:
I win the internet invitational
Tournament date: May 1st
Prise money stamp of approval whatever... date when its sent (allowing them to use a small logo specific for that tournament and be added to a list online by this company/organisation)
Prize money
1-1000 euros
2-500 euros
3-200 euros
I win the internet organisation send the prise money to their account at this "stamp company/organisation" and recieves a stamp of approval. Then players knows in advance that this specific tournament can garantee that the money they might win are infact real and will be handled and sent by a 3d neutral party or whatever.
This being said I dont know how the whole tournament organising thing works but it seems to me, that if you dont know you will have the money for it you shouldnt host it. In my world, the money you are promissing to give out should already be available to the hoster.
This company/organisation ofc wont come out of thin air or wont be founded by this "someone". But I dont see how it cant handle their ways like Justintv/twich etc that is free for users but gets their revenue by adds/commercials etc.
Or! why not ask Blizzard for this service?
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On November 03 2011 20:18 JackDragon wrote:Show nested quote +On November 03 2011 04:52 mcc wrote:On November 02 2011 01:48 Snaphoo wrote:On November 01 2011 18:26 Kreb wrote:
Pro1: "I didnt get money from IPL yet."
Pro2: "I didnt get money from ESWC yet."
IPL: "We're looking into it and trying our best, but sadly theres a lot of paperwork that needs to be done. But you can rest assured we're doing our best to get the payments done in time."
ESWC: "What the fuck, stop putting us in bad light!! You have no reason to do that and if you continue we might not invite you to any more of our events".
One organisation seems to need a lesson in crisis management.... Exactly. And any letter that says "This isn't a threat [but it will be hard to invite you to future events]" is just thuggery; ESWC definitely has lost all respect in my eyes. Lol, you are comparing IPL2 which was long time ago and not paid everything yet (though they are still within reasonable time) and ESWC that ended like 10 days ago. Are you surprised that ESWC people are annoyed when they are mentioned in close proximity of organizations that did not pay for multiple months and how it is actually putting them in bad light by guilt by association. Multiple people in this thread were already convinced by ClouD's unintentional (I believe) association. He should have at least been smart enough to format his post so that offenders are separated clearly from others that he just has some unfounded fears about. The whole situation is ridiculous. People are actually surprised that ESWC would consider not inviting ClouD again ? So if my payday at work is 15th of the next month and on the 5th I start publicly naming my previous employers and how they were not paying me months after they were supposed to and in the same sentence I name my current employer that he did not pay me yet and that noone contacted me about my pay this month you would all be surprised if my employer would consider firing me ? Also why would they contact me about my pay when it is due on 15th, there is no trouble with paying me on 15th and they have my contact info if they need something from me ? I do not expect people who have some obligations toward me to contact me and assure me that they are going to pay before the actual due date. If they do not pay at that time then I expect them to contact me with explanations. This thread is perfect example how perfectly good point that ClouD actually had (apart of his unfortunate associations) is misused by an angry uninformed mob. That is a compleatly different thing. the problem for the player is that they don't KNOW or have been told when they will get paid, which is half of the problem. You can't compare a employment to a tournament prize, that is stupid. You have a contract with your employer, but the players do not have one with the tournaments. Most tournaments mentioned don't have "you will be paid on this day", nor do they have your contact info (bank paypal etc.). But they need to get this afterwards to be able to pay out, and you would think that it would be simple to get while they still are at the even. Hell, why not after your last game, if not before the tournament begins?
Most tournaments actually have in the rules somewhere how long after the end of the tournament they will pay you. NASL for example I think has 90 (maybe 60) days. So there actually is a day and ESWC is easily not late. Also I was not saying it is the same as employment, but I pointed out specific aspects that are the same. One that tournaments actually have a date (or rather period) when they should pay you, second that it is their responsibility to pay you, so it is their responsibility to contact you for your payment details or they should have it in the rules how you should provide them with such and third that if you start publicly complaining that they are not paying you and painting them as "bad guys" (even if only by association) before the pay day they might get upset.
As for getting the payment information, and why the hell not after the week or two if their rules state that they have to pay you in 60 days, they still have enough time and they have your contact info.
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On November 03 2011 20:45 Serashin wrote:
step 1 look up how KeSPA got formed
step 2 find some willing to start that
step 3 contracts contracts contracts
step 4 filter non trustworthy tournaments ( ESL biggest unprofessional organisation of all not just about payments allot of players know what im talking about , note : ESL is the only organisation wich requires premium accounts i/e payment to sign up for events in EU . the only equal in that metter is Dreamhack wich seems to have paid but ESL 1 year + no reason that this organistion should stay alive )
step 5 profit
too bad that u got banned from EAS for not having a working computer for over 3 weeks.
no need to throw personal issues into the judgement of an organization.
And youre wrong: IEM qualifiers do not need premium.
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EPT
