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On October 27 2011 05:17 SeaSwift wrote:Show nested quote +On October 27 2011 05:04 Dalavita wrote:
Please. The korean pros whine as much as anyone else.
Two or three of them saying terran is imbalance does not make that a fact. Why would TERRAN Korean pros "whine" about TERRAN? Please at least read the post you just quoted. MVP -> tweeted that Terran was too strong and 1-1-1 should be banned in competitive play. Polt -> said in Code S group selection that Terran was OP and he should eliminate some of the ones that didn't deserve to be in Code S and were carried by their race. One is a GSL World Championship winner, the other is fucking MVP, with 3 Code S GSL wins + an MLG win to his name, considered to be the best player in the world. If neither of their opinions convince you, I give up. You can keep imagining that the game is balanced at the highest level, fairies give you money for teeth and Santa comes down the chimney every Christmas to give you presents.
None of these changes affect the 1-1-1 directly. The only effect it will have is that terrans will use 1-1-1 even more as T's capability to play endgame vs P gets lowered, meanwhile 1-1-1 is untouched. So basically that MVP said 1-1-1 is op doesn't at all justify these changes. Also Polt on his stream claimed 1-1-1 wasn't op (which I kind of disagree with him about), so I'd say he only put on a show in the groupselection (which they do regulary).
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On October 27 2011 05:47 Theovide wrote:Show nested quote +On October 27 2011 05:17 SeaSwift wrote:On October 27 2011 05:04 Dalavita wrote:
Please. The korean pros whine as much as anyone else.
Two or three of them saying terran is imbalance does not make that a fact. Why would TERRAN Korean pros "whine" about TERRAN? Please at least read the post you just quoted. MVP -> tweeted that Terran was too strong and 1-1-1 should be banned in competitive play. Polt -> said in Code S group selection that Terran was OP and he should eliminate some of the ones that didn't deserve to be in Code S and were carried by their race. One is a GSL World Championship winner, the other is fucking MVP, with 3 Code S GSL wins + an MLG win to his name, considered to be the best player in the world. If neither of their opinions convince you, I give up. You can keep imagining that the game is balanced at the highest level, fairies give you money for teeth and Santa comes down the chimney every Christmas to give you presents. None of these changes affect the 1-1-1 directly. The only effect it will have is that terrans will use 1-1-1 even more as T's capability to play endgame vs P gets lowered, meanwhile 1-1-1 is untouched. So basically that MVP said 1-1-1 is op doesn't at all justify these changes. Also Polt on his stream claimed 1-1-1 wasn't op (which I kind of disagree with him about), so I'd say he only put on a show in the groupselection (which they do regulary).
I wasn't talking about how good these changes are directly - I was responding to some guy claiming that the only Korean pros that think the game is imbalanced are just whining.
Do these changes help defend the 1-1-1? No. Is that relevant to my point? No.
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On October 27 2011 05:35 Dreadwolf wrote:Show nested quote +
- Why dont you watch white-ra play? He uses Warp prism to save the energy of the HT and move them faster drops.. storm.. and pick them up again
I dont see why we should have to carry our spellcaster in warp prism if you dont have to hide them in medvac. if you want to protect them from feedback put em in medvac, feedback only kill medvac if it has over 140 energy, draining medvac is kinda easy you have to select your army and press t.
Why do I have to stutter step while you A-move Charge-lots?
Ghosts are an anti-spellcaster unit, High Templar are an AoE damage unit. They both can fulfill the other's roles, but the way they need to be used is completely different.
Also, High Templar can change a battle in more dramatic ways than Ghosts so if it allows you to get a few storms out, it will decimate the bio army. If you can, then you should. You can, so why aren't you? Why do my units have to be weaker because you literally just said that you refuse to do micro (or perhaps you're not skilled enough to do so). The races aren't direct parallels, and the Ghost's role is vastly different from that of the Templar.
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NEW Q&A WITH DAVID KIM DISCUSSING BALANCE CHANGES
Q: What was the reasoning behind the proposed Protoss upgrade buffs?
David Kim: The reasoning behind the Protoss upgrade buffs is actually quite simple. We've noticed a lot of Protoss players neglecting the potential of unit upgrades in PvT and PvZ. With the advent of such things as Warp Prism harass and Sentry drop harass, we wanted to encourage Protoss players to experiment with non-standard one- and two-base gateway all-ins. We see a lot of untapped potential in things like 6-gate and 8-gate all-ins by Protosses on Battle.net. Therefore we deemed it necessary to further encourage these rarely seen two base all-ins by buffing their units' upgradability even more. Hopefully this will discourage Protoss players from going with standard Warp Prism or Phoenix play that hurts the meta-game, and encourages more warp gate-based all-inning from Protosses.
(I may have ad-libbed and/or made all of that up -_-) ....
Seriously... EMP nerf is going to help a lot... Snipe needs a nerf next.... The upgrade buffs are something else entirely. The shield buffs are understandable given how ridiculously expensive they were before, but I'm not sure I agree with giving protoss ground units an even faster 3/3 advantage over the other races.
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On October 27 2011 05:52 McGuire72 wrote:
NEW Q&A WITH DAVID KIM DISCUSSING BALANCE CHANGES
Q: What was the reasoning behind the proposed Protoss upgrade buffs?
David Kim: The reasoning behind the Protoss upgrade buffs is actually quite simple. We've noticed a lot of Protoss players neglecting the potential of unit upgrades in PvT and PvZ. With the advent of such things as Warp Prism harass and Sentry drop harass, we wanted to encourage Protoss players to experiment with non-standard one- and two-base gateway all-ins. We see a lot of untapped potential in things like 6-gate and 8-gate all-ins by Protosses on Battle.net. Therefore we deemed it necessary to further encourage these rarely seen two base all-ins by buffing their units' upgradability even more. Hopefully this will discourage Protoss players from going with standard Warp Prism or Phoenix play that hurts the meta-game, and encourages more warp gate-based all-inning from Protosses.
(I may have ad-libbed and/or made all of that up -_-) ....
Seriously... EMP nerf is going to help a lot... Snipe needs a nerf next.... The upgrade buffs are something else entirely. The shield buffs are understandable given how ridiculously expensive they were before, but I'm not sure I agree with giving protoss ground units an even faster 3/3 advantage over the other races.
EDIT: My bad, didn't read his entire post haha.
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On October 27 2011 05:50 SeaSwift wrote:Show nested quote +On October 27 2011 05:47 Theovide wrote:On October 27 2011 05:17 SeaSwift wrote:On October 27 2011 05:04 Dalavita wrote:
Please. The korean pros whine as much as anyone else.
Two or three of them saying terran is imbalance does not make that a fact. Why would TERRAN Korean pros "whine" about TERRAN? Please at least read the post you just quoted. MVP -> tweeted that Terran was too strong and 1-1-1 should be banned in competitive play. Polt -> said in Code S group selection that Terran was OP and he should eliminate some of the ones that didn't deserve to be in Code S and were carried by their race. One is a GSL World Championship winner, the other is fucking MVP, with 3 Code S GSL wins + an MLG win to his name, considered to be the best player in the world. If neither of their opinions convince you, I give up. You can keep imagining that the game is balanced at the highest level, fairies give you money for teeth and Santa comes down the chimney every Christmas to give you presents. None of these changes affect the 1-1-1 directly. The only effect it will have is that terrans will use 1-1-1 even more as T's capability to play endgame vs P gets lowered, meanwhile 1-1-1 is untouched. So basically that MVP said 1-1-1 is op doesn't at all justify these changes. Also Polt on his stream claimed 1-1-1 wasn't op (which I kind of disagree with him about), so I'd say he only put on a show in the groupselection (which they do regulary). I wasn't talking about how good these changes are directly - I was responding to some guy claiming that the only Korean pros that think the game is imbalanced are just whining. Do these changes help defend the 1-1-1? No. Is that relevant to my point? No.
The pros you mentioned can't even agree in between themselves whether something is imbalanced or not, i.e the 1-1-1, yet you want to point to them as a source of authority on an entire races balance.
Goes to solidify my point. The statement of a single korean pro or two, no matter who it is doesn't mean anything, sorry to break the news for you. It's opinion like everyone elses. Bring cold hard facts or shoo off.
On October 27 2011 05:52 McGuire72 wrote:
Seriously... EMP nerf is going to help a lot... Snipe needs a nerf next.... The upgrade buffs are something else entirely. The shield buffs are understandable given how ridiculously expensive they were before, but I'm not sure I agree with giving protoss ground units an even faster 3/3 advantage over the other races.
And why exactly do you think snipe should be nerfed? I'm down with the EMP change. But you've seen snipe used to dominate zergs in about 3 games where terrans have had massive advantages to begin with, and that's enough of an example for you?
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Untapped potential in gateway allins? ...? Happens like 1/4 games on ladder at least.
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On October 27 2011 05:52 McGuire72 wrote:
NEW Q&A WITH DAVID KIM DISCUSSING BALANCE CHANGES
Q: What was the reasoning behind the proposed Protoss upgrade buffs?
David Kim: The reasoning behind the Protoss upgrade buffs is actually quite simple. We've noticed a lot of Protoss players neglecting the potential of unit upgrades in PvT and PvZ. With the advent of such things as Warp Prism harass and Sentry drop harass, we wanted to encourage Protoss players to experiment with non-standard one- and two-base gateway all-ins. We see a lot of untapped potential in things like 6-gate and 8-gate all-ins by Protosses on Battle.net. Therefore we deemed it necessary to further encourage these rarely seen two base all-ins by buffing their units' upgradability even more. Hopefully this will discourage Protoss players from going with standard Warp Prism or Phoenix play that hurts the meta-game, and encourages more warp gate-based all-inning from Protosses.
(I may have ad-libbed and/or made all of that up -_-) ....
Seriously... EMP nerf is going to help a lot... Snipe needs a nerf next.... The upgrade buffs are something else entirely. The shield buffs are understandable given how ridiculously expensive they were before, but I'm not sure I agree with giving protoss ground units an even faster 3/3 advantage over the other races.
Thank you for wasting my time! And he already answered why for the armor changes during a blizzcon panel.
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On October 27 2011 05:55 Dalavita wrote:Show nested quote +On October 27 2011 05:52 McGuire72 wrote:
Seriously... EMP nerf is going to help a lot... Snipe needs a nerf next.... The upgrade buffs are something else entirely. The shield buffs are understandable given how ridiculously expensive they were before, but I'm not sure I agree with giving protoss ground units an even faster 3/3 advantage over the other races. And why exactly do you think snipe should be nerfed? I'm down with the EMP change. But you've seen snipe used to dominate zergs in about 3 games where terrans have had massive advantages to begin with, and that's enough of an example for you?
My reasoning would be for the same reason that Infestors were nerfed a patch ago. Ghosts, Infestors, and HTs are not meant to be cure-alls. They are meant to be support units that, when combined with other units in a composition, strengthen that composition exponentially. With FG and NP as they were, Infestors countered virtually everything. Likewise, with Snipe in its current state, Ghosts are a counter for pretty much every late-game unit available to Zerg players. Really, it hardly seems fair the Zerg's only siege unit (BLs) are insta-countered by a handful of ghosts. And if the Zerg is unable to siege a turtling Terran player, how else are they ever going to break through? Siege lines and PFs are already strong enough, and with Ghosts able to maul ultras and BLs nearly instantly, it's basically impossible to beat a good, turtling Terran.
Edit: This is definitely not a "balance whine" either. As a diamond zerg, I never see any Terrans good enough to execute the MVP turtle style, so I don't have a problem with it. But at the highest levels, a turtle terran who can cut the map in half is literally almost impossible to take out with the game how it is. I just think of MVP vs Nestea @ Blizzcon or IdrA vs Bomber Game 2 @ MLG Orlando, and it's pretty clear that if a Terran slowly and methodically takes his half of the map and plays defense, it's not really breakable for the Zerg. The terran doesn't even have to push out or be aggressive; just hide behind siege lines and PF everything and snipe the BLs/Ultras when they inevitably come.
Also, sorry for "wasting your time" guys :p It was just a joke. It kinda sounded like a David Kim explanation though didn't it? ^^
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On October 27 2011 06:06 McGuire72 wrote:
My reasoning would be for the same reason that Infestors were nerfed a patch ago. Ghosts, Infestors, and HTs are not meant to be cure-alls. They are meant to be support units that, when combined with other units in a composition, strengthen that composition exponentially. With FG and NP as they were, Infestors countered virtually everything. Likewise, with Snipe in its current state, Ghosts are a counter for pretty much every late-game unit available to Zerg players. Really, it hardly seems fair the Zerg's only siege unit (BLs) are insta-countered by a handful of ghosts. And if the Zerg is unable to siege a turtling Terran player, how else are they ever going to break through? Siege lines and PFs are already strong enough, and with Ghosts able to maul ultras and BLs nearly instantly, it's basically impossible to beat a good, turtling Terran.
Ghosts are currently the soft-counter to every endgame zerg unit yes, because nothing else is. If you nerf ghosts, that change is going back into the rest of the terrans arsenal, But we've only seen ghost play used in lategame tvz when the terran was dominating the game previously making them seem extra strong.
Also, I dont understand your "BLs are insta-countered by a handful of ghosts." Then protect them, is the answer. It's not like ghosts are unkillable machines. It would be like a terran getting caught off guard by 5 colossi and dying and thinking that they're unkillable machines that insta-counter bio because they didn't get vikings when colossi was an obvious choice.
We had a period of broodlord infestor considered broken ffs, and it still is to a degree. People figured out ghosts were pretty good, and now it's time for other people to figure out that this or that thing is good against ghosts.
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Well then theorycraft it for me. What zerg unit has detection and can get behind siege lines to where the cloaked ghosts are hiding to target fire the ghosts?
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On October 27 2011 06:21 McGuire72 wrote:
Well then theorycraft it for me. What zerg unit has detection and can get behind siege lines to where the cloaked ghosts are hiding to target fire the ghosts?
How can a cloaked ghost behind a siege line be any threat to your broodlords of infestors? To be effective it has to come in range of several things like fungal growth, broodlings and whatever else the zerg can currently throw at the ghosts, siege tank fire or not.
People were saying things like "theorycraft it then if you can!!" when anything was new and unsolved like it was impossible, until it got solved that is. People will figure this out, relax. There's been like 5-6 total pro games that has reached this scenario.
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Also, if ghosts are a "soft" counter to BLs, infestors, and ultras, then what does that make marauder, stimmed marines, and vikings? Memory foam counters?
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Seems to me like these changes are designed to get Protoss to actually research the shield upgrades against Terran. Currently nobody really bothers researching the shield upgrades against Terran, almost at all, because of EMP's ability to completely negate those shields in the blink of an eye.
While I like the cost reduction and EMP radius nerf, I don't really think they will make much of a difference in the long haul because they do not affect the interaction between EMPs and shields. For the Protoss, EMP does the same amount of damage to your shields regardless of upgrades. Whether you're at +3 shields or +0 makes no difference, it's a flat 100 damage.
But what if it wasn't like that? What if your shield upgrades also reduced the damage you took from EMPs by a significant margin?
What if it looked more like this:
+0 shields - 100 shield damage from EMP
+1 shields - 90 damage
+2 shields - 80 damage
+3 shields - 70 damage
It wouldn't have to be THOSE numbers specifically, but as a general idea, I think this proposed change would help in PvT a lot. Maybe we would actually see Protoss bothering to get the shield upgrades!
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The final game of Blizzcon of Mvp vs NesTea should never be used in any balance discussion. NesTea could have handily won the game at multiple points, but there was definitely a combination of showboating and indifference coming from NesTea's booth. Whether or not mass Ghost vs Zerg is "OP" or not I think is too early to determine. It hasn't been played enough on stage matches so we can't really judge as to whether or not it's "imba." (that being said I really doubt it).
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On October 27 2011 06:32 McGuire72 wrote:
Also, if ghosts are a "soft" counter to BLs, infestors, and ultras, then what does that make marauder, stimmed marines, and vikings? Memory foam counters?
You do know what a hard-counter is right?
A mutalisk to a banshee is a hard counter.
All the zergs endgame can attack and kill the ghosts. Ghosts have an advantage against them in x situations, but I've seen enough fungal'd ghosts getting torn to pieces to know that they are vulnerable.
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On October 27 2011 06:33 Dopeyabyss wrote:
Seems to me like these changes are designed to get Protoss to actually research the shield upgrades against Terran. Currently nobody really bothers researching the shield upgrades against Terran, almost at all, because of EMP's ability to completely negate those shields in the blink of an eye.
While I like the cost reduction and EMP radius nerf, I don't really think they will make much of a difference in the long haul because they do not affect the interaction between EMPs and shields. For the Protoss, EMP does the same amount of damage to your shields regardless of upgrades. Whether you're at +3 shields or +0 makes no difference, it's a flat 100 damage.
But what if it wasn't like that? What if your shield upgrades also reduced the damage you took from EMPs by a significant margin?
What if it looked more like this:
+0 shields - 100 shield damage from EMP
+1 shields - 90 damage
+2 shields - 80 damage
+3 shields - 70 damage
It wouldn't have to be THOSE numbers specifically, but as a general idea, I think this proposed change would help in PvT a lot. Maybe we would actually see Protoss bothering to get the shield upgrades!
Do you realize that most Protoss units don't even have 70 shields? And even if they did, most complaints about EMP are regarding its energy draining effect instead of its "damage" (I say "damage" because it can't actually kill a unit...)
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On October 27 2011 06:33 Dopeyabyss wrote:
Seems to me like these changes are designed to get Protoss to actually research the shield upgrades against Terran. Currently nobody really bothers researching the shield upgrades against Terran, almost at all, because of EMP's ability to completely negate those shields in the blink of an eye.
While I like the cost reduction and EMP radius nerf, I don't really think they will make much of a difference in the long haul because they do not affect the interaction between EMPs and shields. For the Protoss, EMP does the same amount of damage to your shields regardless of upgrades. Whether you're at +3 shields or +0 makes no difference, it's a flat 100 damage.
But what if it wasn't like that? What if your shield upgrades also reduced the damage you took from EMPs by a significant margin?
What if it looked more like this:
+0 shields - 100 shield damage from EMP
+1 shields - 90 damage
+2 shields - 80 damage
+3 shields - 70 damage
It wouldn't have to be THOSE numbers specifically, but as a general idea, I think this proposed change would help in PvT a lot. Maybe we would actually see Protoss bothering to get the shield upgrades!
I actually really like this idea (except make it percentages, not arbitrary numbers), as opposed to making upgrades cheaper for protoss. The EMP nerf holds far more significance than most people give it credit for.
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On October 27 2011 06:40 Pillage wrote:Show nested quote +On October 27 2011 06:33 Dopeyabyss wrote:
Seems to me like these changes are designed to get Protoss to actually research the shield upgrades against Terran. Currently nobody really bothers researching the shield upgrades against Terran, almost at all, because of EMP's ability to completely negate those shields in the blink of an eye.
While I like the cost reduction and EMP radius nerf, I don't really think they will make much of a difference in the long haul because they do not affect the interaction between EMPs and shields. For the Protoss, EMP does the same amount of damage to your shields regardless of upgrades. Whether you're at +3 shields or +0 makes no difference, it's a flat 100 damage.
But what if it wasn't like that? What if your shield upgrades also reduced the damage you took from EMPs by a significant margin?
What if it looked more like this:
+0 shields - 100 shield damage from EMP
+1 shields - 90 damage
+2 shields - 80 damage
+3 shields - 70 damage
It wouldn't have to be THOSE numbers specifically, but as a general idea, I think this proposed change would help in PvT a lot. Maybe we would actually see Protoss bothering to get the shield upgrades! I actually really like this idea (except make it percentages, not arbitrary numbers), as opposed to making upgrades cheaper for protoss. The EMP nerf holds far more significance than most people give it credit for.
i'd rather save each and every one of my units from dying off :D that way they have more individual kills and gain more street cred. the fastest way is to instantly lose all my shields because i clumped up horribly and cried ghost!! hehe
i haven't looked into it, but imagine if a replicator could make themself into SCVS for repair. now that is a truly retainable protoss army.
steal a ghost, emp, infestor style : D.
unfortunately, 4v4's will be a bloody mess.... LOL
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EPT
