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On October 27 2011 05:54 The Final Boss wrote:Show nested quote +On October 27 2011 05:52 McGuire72 wrote:
NEW Q&A WITH DAVID KIM DISCUSSING BALANCE CHANGES
Q: What was the reasoning behind the proposed Protoss upgrade buffs?
David Kim: The reasoning behind the Protoss upgrade buffs is actually quite simple. We've noticed a lot of Protoss players neglecting the potential of unit upgrades in PvT and PvZ. With the advent of such things as Warp Prism harass and Sentry drop harass, we wanted to encourage Protoss players to experiment with non-standard one- and two-base gateway all-ins. We see a lot of untapped potential in things like 6-gate and 8-gate all-ins by Protosses on Battle.net. Therefore we deemed it necessary to further encourage these rarely seen two base all-ins by buffing their units' upgradability even more. Hopefully this will discourage Protoss players from going with standard Warp Prism or Phoenix play that hurts the meta-game, and encourages more warp gate-based all-inning from Protosses.
(I may have ad-libbed and/or made all of that up -_-) ....
Seriously... EMP nerf is going to help a lot... Snipe needs a nerf next.... The upgrade buffs are something else entirely. The shield buffs are understandable given how ridiculously expensive they were before, but I'm not sure I agree with giving protoss ground units an even faster 3/3 advantage over the other races. EDIT: My bad, didn't read his entire post haha.
Is that what david kim seriously said? really? Cuz he wants more all ins? lol wut
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On October 27 2011 07:54 DreamRaider wrote:Show nested quote +On October 27 2011 05:54 The Final Boss wrote:On October 27 2011 05:52 McGuire72 wrote:
NEW Q&A WITH DAVID KIM DISCUSSING BALANCE CHANGES
Q: What was the reasoning behind the proposed Protoss upgrade buffs?
David Kim: The reasoning behind the Protoss upgrade buffs is actually quite simple. We've noticed a lot of Protoss players neglecting the potential of unit upgrades in PvT and PvZ. With the advent of such things as Warp Prism harass and Sentry drop harass, we wanted to encourage Protoss players to experiment with non-standard one- and two-base gateway all-ins. We see a lot of untapped potential in things like 6-gate and 8-gate all-ins by Protosses on Battle.net. Therefore we deemed it necessary to further encourage these rarely seen two base all-ins by buffing their units' upgradability even more. Hopefully this will discourage Protoss players from going with standard Warp Prism or Phoenix play that hurts the meta-game, and encourages more warp gate-based all-inning from Protosses.
(I may have ad-libbed and/or made all of that up -_-) ....
Seriously... EMP nerf is going to help a lot... Snipe needs a nerf next.... The upgrade buffs are something else entirely. The shield buffs are understandable given how ridiculously expensive they were before, but I'm not sure I agree with giving protoss ground units an even faster 3/3 advantage over the other races. EDIT: My bad, didn't read his entire post haha. Is that what david kim seriously said? really? Cuz he wants more all ins? lol wut
Yes that is what David Kim seriously said.
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i think that normally its not the cost that means anything when it comes to upgrades, but the time it takes to make them. This will not make upgrades more used or more available i think. Maybe you can do triple forge and save the money for the third forge because upgrades are cheaper ?
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As a terran, I can understand why EMP Radius is decreased.... although I believe Infestors fungal radius should be decreased as well to even that up. I also don't agree with the Protoss upgrades being reduced in cost (apart from the shield). Protoss' already get upgrades faster than any other race, why buff that?
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United States7483 Posts
On October 27 2011 07:54 DreamRaider wrote:Show nested quote +On October 27 2011 05:54 The Final Boss wrote:On October 27 2011 05:52 McGuire72 wrote:
NEW Q&A WITH DAVID KIM DISCUSSING BALANCE CHANGES
Q: What was the reasoning behind the proposed Protoss upgrade buffs?
David Kim: The reasoning behind the Protoss upgrade buffs is actually quite simple. We've noticed a lot of Protoss players neglecting the potential of unit upgrades in PvT and PvZ. With the advent of such things as Warp Prism harass and Sentry drop harass, we wanted to encourage Protoss players to experiment with non-standard one- and two-base gateway all-ins. We see a lot of untapped potential in things like 6-gate and 8-gate all-ins by Protosses on Battle.net. Therefore we deemed it necessary to further encourage these rarely seen two base all-ins by buffing their units' upgradability even more. Hopefully this will discourage Protoss players from going with standard Warp Prism or Phoenix play that hurts the meta-game, and encourages more warp gate-based all-inning from Protosses.
(I may have ad-libbed and/or made all of that up -_-) ....
Seriously... EMP nerf is going to help a lot... Snipe needs a nerf next.... The upgrade buffs are something else entirely. The shield buffs are understandable given how ridiculously expensive they were before, but I'm not sure I agree with giving protoss ground units an even faster 3/3 advantage over the other races. EDIT: My bad, didn't read his entire post haha. Is that what david kim seriously said? really? Cuz he wants more all ins? lol wut
Did you read what he wrote? You know, the part about him making the entire thing up? Here, I'll bold it for you.
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Canada13389 Posts
On October 27 2011 08:25 Whitewing wrote:Show nested quote +On October 27 2011 07:54 DreamRaider wrote:On October 27 2011 05:54 The Final Boss wrote:On October 27 2011 05:52 McGuire72 wrote:
NEW Q&A WITH DAVID KIM DISCUSSING BALANCE CHANGES
Q: What was the reasoning behind the proposed Protoss upgrade buffs?
David Kim: The reasoning behind the Protoss upgrade buffs is actually quite simple. We've noticed a lot of Protoss players neglecting the potential of unit upgrades in PvT and PvZ. With the advent of such things as Warp Prism harass and Sentry drop harass, we wanted to encourage Protoss players to experiment with non-standard one- and two-base gateway all-ins. We see a lot of untapped potential in things like 6-gate and 8-gate all-ins by Protosses on Battle.net. Therefore we deemed it necessary to further encourage these rarely seen two base all-ins by buffing their units' upgradability even more. Hopefully this will discourage Protoss players from going with standard Warp Prism or Phoenix play that hurts the meta-game, and encourages more warp gate-based all-inning from Protosses.
(I may have ad-libbed and/or made all of that up -_-) ....
Seriously... EMP nerf is going to help a lot... Snipe needs a nerf next.... The upgrade buffs are something else entirely. The shield buffs are understandable given how ridiculously expensive they were before, but I'm not sure I agree with giving protoss ground units an even faster 3/3 advantage over the other races. EDIT: My bad, didn't read his entire post haha. Is that what david kim seriously said? really? Cuz he wants more all ins? lol wut Did you read what he wrote? You know, the part about him making the entire thing up? Here, I'll bold it for you.
Equally as appalling - the fact that cheaper atk/amr ups mean they are going to be 3/0/3 units faster than before.
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On October 27 2011 07:13 The Final Boss wrote:Show nested quote +On October 27 2011 06:52 Dreadwolf wrote:On October 27 2011 05:52 The Final Boss wrote:
Why do I have to stutter step while you A-move Charge-lots?
Well i would stutter step zealot if it made sense. but they are melee units. i do control zealots all the time tho, if i can i will make them hit tank and ghost first. hey! a matter of fact i do stutter step micro zealot is some early game situation vs zerg
Ghosts are an anti-spellcaster unit, High Templar are an AoE damage unit. They both can fulfill the other's roles, but the way they need to be used is completely different.
yeah blizzard mention something about thousand dmg EMPs, i guess emp does no damage right. And your right they need to be used is completly different, ghost can cloak and blanket emp and it does a tons of damage AND it disable spellcaster at the same time, while templar arcording to you have to get droped/picked up, storm and select select the ghost individualy to feedback them. its is completly different. its much easier when your the ghost. and you can do it from the "safety" of a longer range and cloak. or you can just snipe them before they can get in the range for feedback. Oh so its anti caster only? right, so i have no problem to put the AoE of the ghost back to 2 if it dosent take any shield away. I did not realise that ghost could only snipe caster also, yeah... broodlord or ultra or even muta never got sniped. ghost are so anti caster only.
Also, High Templar can change a battle in more dramatic ways than Ghosts so if it allows you to get a few storms out, it will decimate the bio army. If you can, then you should. You can, so why aren't you? Why do my units have to be weaker because you literally just said that you refuse to do micro (or perhaps you're not skilled enough to do so). The races aren't direct parallels, and the Ghost's role is vastly different from that of the Templar.
Balance change are for a reason, why did KA get remove all you had to do is emp templar and its gg you had a counter available and yet it was nerfed. Because it was imbalanced, thats why. Why did flux vane got removed? imbalanced, why did zealot building time was nerfed? balance. why did the immortal build time was nerfed? all those unit had counter. But it dosent mean that it was a balanced unit. Yeah maybe and i say MAYBE a templar can change the outcome of a battle more ( i dont really belive thats true) but what do you invest in tech for a ghost. a barrak, a tech lab and a ghost academy. I got gateway, cyber core, twilight council ,templar archive and then a research.. yeah. even if a templar would change the outcome of a battle more than a ghost would, the investement in tech and money and time would justify that.
EMP can do less than half a units hitpoints, whereas good storms decimate bio armies. Storms do lots of damage, certainly more than half a Marine's HP even if they are only in the Storm for a small period of time.
Emp can do less than half a units hit points, Storm Will do less than half of a units hit points if you dont sit in the storm and wait, unless its cast on a marine or a reaper in most case, it is possible to eat only 1 storm tick with a marine but you gota be already moving. Marauders to be at half have to take the full duration of the storm and they will live trough a storm, after a stim, even if they dont move at all. So yeah i guess 1 storm will do more % dmg to your army if its only marine and/or they stand stil.
Ghosts and Templar need to be utilized in different ways. In the same way that Zealots are melee units and don't need to be stutter-stepped, Ghosts and Templar require different forms of control. You have the units/the ability to beat Ghosts with High Templar (utilizing Warp Prisms, of course), if you choose not to use them that's your fault, and Terran units shouldn't suffer for it. If I decide not to make Ghosts in TvP, because landing EMPs is too hard, does that mean that when my army gets destroyed by Forcefields and Storms that Sentries and Templar are OP? No, it just means that I had the wrong units and didn't control properly.
I cant put all my army war prism, avoiding the emp is impossible, mitigating its damage some by spreading it will work but you gota realise that emp rad 2 is 44% larger than storm. and it dosent matter if there is one pixed in the emp, i take full damage in it, for storm too you take full damage from 1 pixel, but only if your not moving.
Let me rephrase my original statement: Ghosts are anti-spellcasters IN TvP. Sure in TvZ they have a different role, but vZ is a completely different match-up; bio makes up the bulk of your late game army in TvP, but in TvT bio units are almost completely unused late game. My post was clearly talking about TvP, so you're arguing a completely different point.
In TvP: Ghosts=Anti-Spellcaster, High Templar=AoE damage. EMP does AoE damage, but it's important role (along with snipe) is to deal with High Templar before they can storm or Sentries before they can FF. High Templar can be used to kill energy units (Ghosts, Medivacs, PDDs), but their major role is storming on Terran armies to decimate them with AoE damage. Similarly, the main usage of Vikings are to deal with Colossi, but you can also land them to harass undefended mineral lines, or that Stalkers make up the majority of DPS in a P army, but they can also harass with Blink.
If ghost are anti-spellcaster in TvP why are they doing to much damage to my army, in a way that is impossible to avoid. Like i said i have no problem with emp with radius 2 if it dosent do shield damage. Shield Dmg is a TvP thing only, if the role of the ghost like your saying is to fuck up spell caster, why why why it does so much damage to the army, only in pvt, where again, its role acording to you, is not suposed to be a damage dealer. Even if i split my army just has good has you do, i will take a ton of damage from emp and also energy dmg because its nearly instant.
Just because something is hard to do doesn't mean that it can't be done, and frankly putting a High Templar into a Prism and drop-storming isn't that difficult at all, especially if you get Prism speed. So why are you so reluctant to do so? You're trying to make parallels between Ghosts and High Templar, but you need to realize that they are vastly different units despite both having AoE spells.
Templar tech is now : Gateway, Core, Twilgight council, Templar archive, research, robotic facility, robotic bay, warp prism upgrade
Ghost tech is : Barrak, tech lab, ghost academy.
Balanced.
Ok so if something can be microed against its balanced, whatever it is? sweet i can have instant dmg storm now, no delay no cooldown, because you can have enough viklking to shut down prism and you can have longer range with snipe and emp you should be fine! there is no way that would be imbalanced all you have to do to counter it is to be skilled! and you even need less tech! ... What!?
Juste because something can be micro against dosent mean its balanced. If infested marine had a suitcase nuke staped to their back and it would explode when they die, it is not balanced even if you can emp the infestor. and preven it from shooting infested marine.
Also, just as a note: if you're going to quote a post/reference a post, include the entire thing (spoiler it if it really bugs you). Your quote of my post is missing some important points that I made/important transitionary clauses from one point to the next and you also didn't even credit my name with that quote so there's no way for somebody to see the original post.
Okay
Edit: I messed up the format it look like a one word post lol.
User was warned for this post
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P.S. For P EMP radius reduction might have sense cuz HT/sentry are really small, but now EMP is even more useless against really fat infestors, that is really worse for TvZ mid/late game.
as a terran player i don't think thats going to become a huge problem. I never really use emp in tvz. Tanks outrange infestors alot, and splitting your units does make fungal not as much of a problem, aswell as keeping your marines mostly behind your tanks. I guess people will just start to use snipe more if it becomes too big of a problem with emp against infestors.
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Interesting changes gogogo triple forge now! :D
The emp radius nerf was really needed.
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I don't know why everyone's raging about how Protoss will get their ups faster because:
The build time for all upgrades did NOT change.
Sure, you can get your 2 attack/2 armor 50/50 sooner and your 3 attack/3 armor 100/100 sooner, but the amount of time saved from that is nothing compared to what your economy should be when you're getting those upgrades. Are you really telling me that you get your upgrades when you have exactly 300/300 or 400/400 banked?
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On October 27 2011 10:45 CyanideXN wrote:
I don't know why everyone's raging about how Protoss will get their ups faster because:
The build time for all upgrades did NOT change.
Sure, you can get your 2 attack/2 armor 50/50 sooner and your 3 attack/3 armor 100/100 sooner, but the amount of time saved from that is nothing compared to what your economy should be when you're getting those upgrades. Are you really telling me that you get your upgrades when you have exactly 300/300 or 400/400 banked?
I think this is an extremely important point. People are going to get the double forges at exactly the same time. The purpose of the double forge is to get 2/2 the moment 1/1 finishes, which is at the exact same time. You just have to have 50/50 less saved up at the point when upgrades finish. Only 3/3 will potentially come out faster because that usually isn't researched the instant 2/2 finishes.
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On October 27 2011 07:48 iamke55 wrote:Show nested quote +On October 27 2011 07:39 Xenogears wrote:
Now Grand Master TvP might be balanced, but anything below Grand Master will suffer because P is such an easy race, and T has 100000 times more things to do.
Wish P could have learnt to spread their units but I guess you can't ask P to do anything more than mass units and build death balls to 1a their way to victory.
Thank you. Sorry the game is so hard for you. Maybe you should've learn how to play properly instead of bringing SCVs with your attacks every game?
I don't agree with what Xenogears wrote (I'm a Terran player, I've been arguing with all you Ps, and frankly I think that the game was balanced before all these nerfs and buffs hurting Terran and even now it's fairly balanced), but you can't say that Protoss players don't cheese a lot. My friend went from Silver league Protoss to high Platinum only 4 Gating--and unlike that 3 Rax Supply Drop build which boosted people's ladder ranks because it was so unknown, 4 Gate is an all-in that has been around forever and it's pretty clear as far as how to hold it. Now 3 Rax will probably get you about as high up as 4 Gate, so it's really unfair to say that Terrans are the only ones who cheese like you're implying.
But to be honest, Terran definitely is strong in the match-up, but their army is a lot more fragile even with good control, where as if the Protoss keeps their Colossi and High Templar relatively safe and stays with or surpasses the Terran in upgrades, then they will win.
Hopefully in HotS they'll make TvP a more fun match-up on both sides, instead of a grueling war of all-ins. I want more emphasis on the Factory and Starport in a long game, but Tanks get overrun by Zealots, Hellions are only good until the Protoss gets Colossi, and Thors get feedbacked.
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What the upgrade price changes for the double forge style means: If you spend 2 extra chrono-boosts on probes you'll get your upgrades 10 seconds later but with an extra observer (and 2 extra probes you wouldn't have had otherwise.
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I don't think people realize how much of a nerf this is. The the area covered by EMP is 56.25% of what it was, that is HUGE for a balance change.
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On October 27 2011 10:58 HarryHood wrote:
I don't think people realize how much of a nerf this is. The the area covered by EMP is 56.25% of what it was, that is HUGE for a balance change.
Yes it's surprising people don't know that EMP has finally been lowered to the same radius as Storm.
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On October 27 2011 05:21 blamekilly wrote:Show nested quote +On October 27 2011 03:34 Plansix wrote:On October 27 2011 02:27 blamekilly wrote:On October 27 2011 02:10 nanaoei wrote:On October 27 2011 00:28 AmericanUmlaut wrote:On October 27 2011 00:24 Big.E33 wrote:
is it now viable to get shields +1 before armor +3?
especially in a archon/zealot composition? Keep in mind that the more defense you already have, the better a defense upgrade is. Going from +2 armor to +3 means you're going from taking 3 damage per shot from an unupgraded Marine to 2 damage, a 33% reduction. Going from +0 shields to +1 takes you from 6 damage per shot to 5, which is only a 17% reduction. Especially given that a lot of those shots will be reduced still further by Guardian Shield, it's probably still worth the investment to get the armor first. lets pretend health and shields are the same, to mostly simulate a stalker,a sentry, or even a collosus (for almost any other units this is wrong) you're not wrong, but considering you're picking your first upgrade, +1 armor and +1 shields is practically the same upgrade (with the above). there is however a tendancy to want to not take hull damage or actual HP. the handful-of-stalker-vs-handful-of-marine situation happens a bit earlier than you would get either upgrade, but i can't help but think shields-first would be ideal if you can save most of your hurt units from death in your very first engagements.
shields recharge to their full amount, armor only applies to the remaining health of the unit whether it's 10 hp or 80. i'm sure you get what i mean there.... *edit* i guess this is why people value attack upgrades more than armor sometimes : D when they get a ball of units. the units themsevles---the zealot or even a stalker are special units for protoss though which go against this because of the units that are used against them. (marauders which do 10, with marines, or zerglings against stalkers) Are you absolutely sure that armor only affects the health portion of a protoss army??? That doesn't sound right to me. source? Are you dead serious???? You claim to be a masters player on the NA server and you have no idea that the shield's upgrade only affects shields? Did you know that zerg melee upgrade only affects melee units? Actually, I didn't know any of these things. I play terran, the race everyone complains about and just happen to make masters easily.
Clearly with zero game knowledge. Do you ever wonder why people complain about the race?
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On October 27 2011 10:53 The Final Boss wrote:Show nested quote +On October 27 2011 07:48 iamke55 wrote:On October 27 2011 07:39 Xenogears wrote:
Now Grand Master TvP might be balanced, but anything below Grand Master will suffer because P is such an easy race, and T has 100000 times more things to do.
Wish P could have learnt to spread their units but I guess you can't ask P to do anything more than mass units and build death balls to 1a their way to victory.
Thank you. Sorry the game is so hard for you. Maybe you should've learn how to play properly instead of bringing SCVs with your attacks every game? I don't agree with what Xenogears wrote (I'm a Terran player, I've been arguing with all you Ps, and frankly I think that the game was balanced before all these nerfs and buffs hurting Terran and even now it's fairly balanced), but you can't say that Protoss players don't cheese a lot. My friend went from Silver league Protoss to high Platinum only 4 Gating--and unlike that 3 Rax Supply Drop build which boosted people's ladder ranks because it was so unknown, 4 Gate is an all-in that has been around forever and it's pretty clear as far as how to hold it. Now 3 Rax will probably get you about as high up as 4 Gate, so it's really unfair to say that Terrans are the only ones who cheese like you're implying. But to be honest, Terran definitely is strong in the match-up, but their army is a lot more fragile even with good control, where as if the Protoss keeps their Colossi and High Templar relatively safe and stays with or surpasses the Terran in upgrades, then they will win. Hopefully in HotS they'll make TvP a more fun match-up on both sides, instead of a grueling war of all-ins. I want more emphasis on the Factory and Starport in a long game, but Tanks get overrun by Zealots, Hellions are only good until the Protoss gets Colossi, and Thors get feedbacked.
Actually 3 rax plus SCVs will get you to masters. (See Geiko's thread)
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Rejoice brothers for the Protoss have grown stronger!
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On October 27 2011 11:39 tomatriedes wrote:
Actually 3 rax plus SCVs will get you to masters. (See Geiko's thread)
Errr... You do realize he did so good with this build because no one knew about it at the time? I swear, try doing just this build 50 games now, and you can say goodbye to your MMR
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On October 27 2011 10:53 The Final Boss wrote:Show nested quote +On October 27 2011 07:48 iamke55 wrote:On October 27 2011 07:39 Xenogears wrote:
Now Grand Master TvP might be balanced, but anything below Grand Master will suffer because P is such an easy race, and T has 100000 times more things to do.
Wish P could have learnt to spread their units but I guess you can't ask P to do anything more than mass units and build death balls to 1a their way to victory.
Thank you. Sorry the game is so hard for you. Maybe you should've learn how to play properly instead of bringing SCVs with your attacks every game? I don't agree with what Xenogears wrote (I'm a Terran player, I've been arguing with all you Ps, and frankly I think that the game was balanced before all these nerfs and buffs hurting Terran and even now it's fairly balanced), but you can't say that Protoss players don't cheese a lot. My friend went from Silver league Protoss to high Platinum only 4 Gating--and unlike that 3 Rax Supply Drop build which boosted people's ladder ranks because it was so unknown, 4 Gate is an all-in that has been around forever and it's pretty clear as far as how to hold it. Now 3 Rax will probably get you about as high up as 4 Gate, so it's really unfair to say that Terrans are the only ones who cheese like you're implying. But to be honest, Terran definitely is strong in the match-up, but their army is a lot more fragile even with good control, where as if the Protoss keeps their Colossi and High Templar relatively safe and stays with or surpasses the Terran in upgrades, then they will win. Hopefully in HotS they'll make TvP a more fun match-up on both sides, instead of a grueling war of all-ins. I want more emphasis on the Factory and Starport in a long game, but Tanks get overrun by Zealots, Hellions are only good until the Protoss gets Colossi, and Thors get feedbacked.
1. The game isn't far off balance across the board, but we still see at the top level a large TvP imbalance. A month or two ago, TvP was 70% win ratio. Code S is mostly Terrans and almost no Protosses.
2. Cheese is part of the game. That's fine. Standard is fine too. I've seen Terrans do cheese just as often as Protoss. But then again, you think that 4gate is cheese (it's definitely not).
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EPT
