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On October 27 2011 05:52 The Final Boss wrote:
Why do I have to stutter step while you A-move Charge-lots?
Well i would stutter step zealot if it made sense. but they are melee units. i do control zealots all the time tho, if i can i will make them hit tank and ghost first. hey! a matter of fact i do stutter step micro zealot is some early game situation vs zerg
Ghosts are an anti-spellcaster unit, High Templar are an AoE damage unit. They both can fulfill the other's roles, but the way they need to be used is completely different.
yeah blizzard mention something about thousand dmg EMPs, i guess emp does no damage right. And your right they need to be used is completly different, ghost can cloak and blanket emp and it does a tons of damage AND it disable spellcaster at the same time, while templar arcording to you have to get droped/picked up, storm and select select the ghost individualy to feedback them. its is completly different. its much easier when your the ghost. and you can do it from the "safety" of a longer range and cloak. or you can just snipe them before they can get in the range for feedback.
Oh so its anti caster only? right, so i have no problem to put the AoE of the ghost back to 2 if it dosent take any shield away. I did not realise that ghost could only snipe caster also, yeah... broodlord or ultra or even muta never got sniped. ghost are so anti caster only.
Also, High Templar can change a battle in more dramatic ways than Ghosts so if it allows you to get a few storms out, it will decimate the bio army. If you can, then you should. You can, so why aren't you? Why do my units have to be weaker because you literally just said that you refuse to do micro (or perhaps you're not skilled enough to do so). The races aren't direct parallels, and the Ghost's role is vastly different from that of the Templar.
Balance change are for a reason, why did KA get remove all you had to do is emp templar and its gg you had a counter available and yet it was nerfed. Because it was imbalanced, thats why. Why did flux vane got removed? imbalanced, why did zealot building time was nerfed? balance. why did the immortal build time was nerfed? all those unit had counter. But it dosent mean that it was a balanced unit.
Yeah maybe and i say MAYBE a templar can change the outcome of a battle more ( i dont really belive thats true) but what do you invest in tech for a ghost. a barrak, a tech lab and a ghost academy. I got gateway, cyber core, twilight council ,templar archive and then a research.. yeah. even if a templar would change the outcome of a battle more than a ghost would, the investement in tech and money and time would justify that.
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Emp buff totally uneccesary
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Do you realize that most Protoss units don't even have 70 shields? And even if they did, most complaints about EMP are regarding its energy draining effect instead of its "damage" (I say "damage" because it can't actually kill a unit...)
Well like I said, it doesn't have to be THOSE numbers, specifically. This would obviously require extensive testing to get it right.
The problem with making it a percentage basis is - what do you take a percentage of? Let's say it reduces the damage EMP does to your shields by 10/20/30%: you still end up with the same numbers I proposed earlier because you're taking a percentage of 100.
If you make it a function of each unit's maximum shields, then it becomes too complicated. I think it's important for EMP shield damage to be a static number, for the sake of simplicity, I just think it should be affected by shield upgrades. It seems silly to me that Archons with +3 shields die in just as many EMPs as un-upgraded ones.
Edit: accidentally ended a quote without starting it! lol
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On October 27 2011 06:52 Kernen wrote:
Emp buff totally uneccesary
It was a nerf.
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On October 26 2011 23:20 WhiteDog wrote:
This is bullshit, why decreasing upgrade's cost of the ground attack ? That's not really serious, it's the same price as the zerg, while we need two upgrade (range and melee)...
Ridiculous.
And protoss need 2 upgrades for armor (armor + shield)...so whats your point?
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On October 27 2011 06:56 blade55555 wrote:It was a nerf.
a totally necessary one at that
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I think the upgrade cost reduction is not that big of a deal, it surely helps protoss a bit, but its just 375/375 overall and tier 3 is just for like really late game. I think its fair since the T&Z upgrades were cheaper in the past.
I dont really know about the EMP nerf, it seems that they should have nerfed rather the burst than the radius, but of course its a beginning since EMP is like one of the things left that really cause problems to the balance. Radius just doesnt matter that much when T comes along with like 8 ghosts, they would still hit the whole Protoss army easily with those EMPs.
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Not a fan of nerfing emp range when I feel the very obvious solution is using the BW model of EMP. Make it a slow moving projectile that is something you can dodge/minimize how many units can hit.
Why they made it so fast in SC2 still boggles my mind.
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The cost of Upgrade Ground Weapons Level 2 has been decreased to 150/150, down from 175/175.
The cost of Upgrade Ground Weapons Level 3 has been decreased to 200/200, down from 250/250.
The cost of Upgrade Ground Armor Level 2 has been decreased to 150/150, down from 175/175.
The cost of Upgrade Ground Armor Level 3 has been decreased to 200/200, down from 250/250.
Okay, so Toss only needs 2 Upgrades till lategame. Whatever (useful) unit they want to make.
Lets see ... Twilight Council to get 2/2 right? Hmkay.
So ... getting 2 different Upgrades for Robo and Gateway would be unfair ay? Why exactly?
Because T needs a building (if they go bio) which they will never use again to get 3/3?
Because Z can't even get "fast" 3/3?
The funny thing is, toss don't really need to consider upgrades to make tech-switched (besides ... voids?.....) while T and Z almost have to think ahead of the time in which they want to switch.
I really don't get the point in decreasing the cost of upgrades.
I was debating with friends about even raising the up costs or split them in Gateway/Robo ups.
But maybe someday I will understand what the Balancing Team of Blizz has in their minds ... maybe ... someday.
Edit: And if someone mentions shields ... Upgrades the armour of shields for all Protoss units and structures.
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On October 27 2011 06:56 IVN wrote:Show nested quote +On October 26 2011 23:20 WhiteDog wrote:
This is bullshit, why decreasing upgrade's cost of the ground attack ? That's not really serious, it's the same price as the zerg, while we need two upgrade (range and melee)...
Ridiculous. And protoss need 2 upgrades for armor (armor + shield)...so whats your point?
Logic doesn't always strike peoples heads in these balance threads. 
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On October 27 2011 06:52 Dreadwolf wrote:Show nested quote +On October 27 2011 05:52 The Final Boss wrote:
Why do I have to stutter step while you A-move Charge-lots?
Well i would stutter step zealot if it made sense. but they are melee units. i do control zealots all the time tho, if i can i will make them hit tank and ghost first. hey! a matter of fact i do stutter step micro zealot is some early game situation vs zerg Show nested quote +
Ghosts are an anti-spellcaster unit, High Templar are an AoE damage unit. They both can fulfill the other's roles, but the way they need to be used is completely different.
yeah blizzard mention something about thousand dmg EMPs, i guess emp does no damage right. And your right they need to be used is completly different, ghost can cloak and blanket emp and it does a tons of damage AND it disable spellcaster at the same time, while templar arcording to you have to get droped/picked up, storm and select select the ghost individualy to feedback them. its is completly different. its much easier when your the ghost. and you can do it from the "safety" of a longer range and cloak. or you can just snipe them before they can get in the range for feedback. Oh so its anti caster only? right, so i have no problem to put the AoE of the ghost back to 2 if it dosent take any shield away. I did not realise that ghost could only snipe caster also, yeah... broodlord or ultra or even muta never got sniped. ghost are so anti caster only. Show nested quote +
Also, High Templar can change a battle in more dramatic ways than Ghosts so if it allows you to get a few storms out, it will decimate the bio army. If you can, then you should. You can, so why aren't you? Why do my units have to be weaker because you literally just said that you refuse to do micro (or perhaps you're not skilled enough to do so). The races aren't direct parallels, and the Ghost's role is vastly different from that of the Templar.
Balance change are for a reason, why did KA get remove all you had to do is emp templar and its gg you had a counter available and yet it was nerfed. Because it was imbalanced, thats why. Why did flux vane got removed? imbalanced, why did zealot building time was nerfed? balance. why did the immortal build time was nerfed? all those unit had counter. But it dosent mean that it was a balanced unit. Yeah maybe and i say MAYBE a templar can change the outcome of a battle more ( i dont really belive thats true) but what do you invest in tech for a ghost. a barrak, a tech lab and a ghost academy. I got gateway, cyber core, twilight council ,templar archive and then a research.. yeah. even if a templar would change the outcome of a battle more than a ghost would, the investement in tech and money and time would justify that.
EMP can do less than half a units hitpoints, whereas good storms decimate bio armies. Storms do lots of damage, certainly more than half a Marine's HP even if they are only in the Storm for a small period of time.
Ghosts and Templar need to be utilized in different ways. In the same way that Zealots are melee units and don't need to be stutter-stepped, Ghosts and Templar require different forms of control. You have the units/the ability to beat Ghosts with High Templar (utilizing Warp Prisms, of course), if you choose not to use them that's your fault, and Terran units shouldn't suffer for it. If I decide not to make Ghosts in TvP, because landing EMPs is too hard, does that mean that when my army gets destroyed by Forcefields and Storms that Sentries and Templar are OP? No, it just means that I had the wrong units and didn't control properly.
Let me rephrase my original statement: Ghosts are anti-spellcasters IN TvP. Sure in TvZ they have a different role, but vZ is a completely different match-up; bio makes up the bulk of your late game army in TvP, but in TvT bio units are almost completely unused late game. My post was clearly talking about TvP, so you're arguing a completely different point.
In TvP: Ghosts=Anti-Spellcaster, High Templar=AoE damage. EMP does AoE damage, but it's important role (along with snipe) is to deal with High Templar before they can storm or Sentries before they can FF. High Templar can be used to kill energy units (Ghosts, Medivacs, PDDs), but their major role is storming on Terran armies to decimate them with AoE damage. Similarly, the main usage of Vikings are to deal with Colossi, but you can also land them to harass undefended mineral lines, or that Stalkers make up the majority of DPS in a P army, but they can also harass with Blink.
Just because something is hard to do doesn't mean that it can't be done, and frankly putting a High Templar into a Prism and drop-storming isn't that difficult at all, especially if you get Prism speed. So why are you so reluctant to do so? You're trying to make parallels between Ghosts and High Templar, but you need to realize that they are vastly different units despite both having AoE spells.
Also, just as a note: if you're going to quote a post/reference a post, include the entire thing (spoiler it if it really bugs you). Your quote of my post is missing some important points that I made/important transitionary clauses from one point to the next and you also didn't even credit my name with that quote so there's no way for somebody to see the original post.
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Cool shield upgrades down, but T_T the anothers... : (
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Now Grand Master TvP might be balanced, but anything below Grand Master will suffer because P is such an easy race, and T has 100000 times more things to do.
Wish P could have learnt to spread their units but I guess you can't ask P to do anything more than mass units and build death balls to 1a their way to victory.
Thank you.
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IMHO leave EMP radius, leave shields expensive, but have each shield upgrade reduce the damage of EMP to shield by 20.
So level 3 shields would take 40 shield damage.
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On October 27 2011 07:39 Xenogears wrote:
Now Grand Master TvP might be balanced, but anything below Grand Master will suffer because P is such an easy race, and T has 100000 times more things to do.
Wish P could have learnt to spread their units but I guess you can't ask P to do anything more than mass units and build death balls to 1a their way to victory.
Thank you.
We have to spread our inits in the same exact fashion now, both spell hit the same area, we had to spread 44% more before.
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On October 27 2011 07:39 Xenogears wrote:
Now Grand Master TvP might be balanced, but anything below Grand Master will suffer because P is such an easy race, and T has 100000 times more things to do.
Wish P could have learnt to spread their units but I guess you can't ask P to do anything more than mass units and build death balls to 1a their way to victory.
Thank you.
good protoss do spread when needed, just like good terrans
bad terrans just a move their way to victory too
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On October 26 2011 06:27 Jimbo77 wrote:
StarCraft II: Wings of Liberty - Patch 1.4.2
P.S. For P EMP radius reduction might have sense cuz HT/sentry are really small, but now EMP is even more useless against really fat infestors, that is really worse for TvZ mid/late game.
It's ok. There is already a fix for this. The ghost has 2 Ability's called cloak and snipe
Simply use both of them ( In order of Cloak then snipe )
Also works for every other unit in the game 
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On October 27 2011 07:39 Xenogears wrote:
Now Grand Master TvP might be balanced, but anything below Grand Master will suffer because P is such an easy race, and T has 100000 times more things to do.
Wish P could have learnt to spread their units but I guess you can't ask P to do anything more than mass units and build death balls to 1a their way to victory.
Thank you.
Sorry the game is so hard for you. Maybe you should've learn how to play properly instead of bringing SCVs with your attacks every game?
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EPT
