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On November 03 2011 23:47 The_DarkAngelz wrote:Show nested quote +On November 03 2011 23:42 Snowbear wrote:On November 03 2011 23:36 The_DarkAngelz wrote:On November 03 2011 23:29 Snowbear wrote:On November 03 2011 23:12 The_DarkAngelz wrote:On November 03 2011 23:02 Exarian wrote:HT and Archons are kinda the same . There's nothing keeping the Protoss from not morphing some templars for feedback and maybe a storm . So if you seek a counter for the Archon you need one that doesn't get killed destroyed by HT's .
Tanks in general are just bad vs Protoss . They deal a buttload of friendly fire and really struggle with Zealots that the Protoss will have if he goes heavy Archon/HT. Cloaked Banshees well are super expesive and vulnerable and build for ages. They are kinda like DT in the regard they are good when the opponent doesn't prepare for it but suck otherwise.
You always have to look at he complete picture of unit combinations you can't just look at 1 or 2 units and say no those are not what we talk about. Since in real situations those units will be your doom. In "real combat situation" Terran can use army of Marines and Thors, supported by medievacs, Tanks, Vikings and Ghosts. Before enaggement start, cloacked ghosts may cut Toss health by 50% (or by 95% for Archons) and disable casters. Vikings will probably take care of Voids/Colossi, while rest of the army will slaughter remaining Toss forces (mostly THX to marines, best DPS-To-Cost unit in the game with excellent damage scaling). I don't say Terran is in "always winning" situation (because it is not truth), but this type of engagement, even after EMP nerf, definitely look Terran-favored (even if only slightly). Most obvious fact: Terran has highest number of ranged units in game, and his ranged unit mostly outrange Zerg/Toss ranged units. In big numbers units with better range scale much, much better then units with lower/melee range. Then even if long-ranged army in is balanced against mid/short range army in small-scale battle, when numbers increase, long-ranged army get unique advantage making it, at least slightly, favored. The truth is that terran became lazy. Back when they could win like 80% of the games they looked to protoss and zerg and said "you guys have to try new strategies, macro more, micro more, use new units"...But i'm 100% sure if by miracle Terran becames under powered they will whine uppon us saying that they need to do new builds, try new units etc. And i foreseee more ghost nerf this unit is way too good for every situation...so Terran...IMPROVE, because more nerfs will came. This patch is not make that diferrence for terran winrate and terran will still be dominant even thou they are such whiners !! Yes, all terrans became lazy. IMmvp, boxer, bomber, puma, ... all lazy. It's so funny how some people think that there is anything else possible then bio. We tried it. IMmvp tried it, bomber tried it, puma tried it. It - is - not - possible. The only semi-viable composition is tank + bio, but it is still inferior to bio. Do you know what composition protoss do vs terran? Pray...and do an almost all in fast expand and try to defend it ! + Show Spoiler +Wauw, they pray :o. Then HUK and MC are awesome prayers, since the MLG final was PvP Finaly ONE final that doesn't have a Terran...by god if every tournament doesn't end in a TvT....because it's BO-RING !
+ Show Spoiler +
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On November 04 2011 04:20 paintfive wrote:
yeah, voidrays really should get a buff. uncharged theyre horrible and take forever to get to lvl3 charge. I also noticed they START with 0 armor. WTF?? (same with phoenix) And air armor ups cost 150/150 instead of 100/100 for some reason :/ I don't understand. at all.
Because Protoss air can never be viable, it was written in the first code line in beta. Deep, near the source.
The Protoss shall be kept to the ground, while the terrans rule the sky. And the ground. And sea. Plus your back yard.
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On November 04 2011 03:49 ishkabibble wrote:Show nested quote +On November 04 2011 03:06 willyallthewei wrote:
I do remember seeing a VR build by Mana (i think?) vs. Morrow back when the speed upgrade was in the game, and he just kept the void count up the entire game because once he got the speed upgrade he could zip all over the place to kill workers, etc.
But it definitely did not get researched at the standard all in timing of around 6 minutes... Sounds like a mutalisk, what's the problem?
WAIT WAIT WAIT. We can't have the protoss units being as effective as the other races, now can we? They have to either be MUCH more expensive while completing the same task, take alot more tech to be on par or still worse, or take a LONGass time to build. OR ALL THREE! MWAHAHAHA
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On November 04 2011 04:45 Plansix wrote:Show nested quote +On November 04 2011 04:20 paintfive wrote:
yeah, voidrays really should get a buff. uncharged theyre horrible and take forever to get to lvl3 charge. I also noticed they START with 0 armor. WTF?? (same with phoenix) And air armor ups cost 150/150 instead of 100/100 for some reason :/ I don't understand. at all. Because Protoss air can never be viable, it was written in the first code line in beta. Deep, near the source. The Protoss shall be kept to the ground, while the terrans rule the sky. And the ground. And sea. Plus your back yard.
And people say the game isn't close enough to BW!
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On November 04 2011 02:17 Serashin wrote:Something is missing in this patch , wich should have been added in previous patches already. It is .. ![[image loading]](http://img252.imageshack.us/img252/8571/unleddf.png) Basicly this important upgrade for the Voidray got removed while the Void Ray had very different damage and charge multiplicators , aswell as added to that the spore crawler root time , the fact that they didnt built infestors against mass voids and generaly bad engagements etc it was consindered overpowered for the Void Ray . However nowdays is the Void Ray extremly useless and i´d like my loved upgrade back. ps : no argueing about bringing Amulet back it was straight up overpowered.
quoting myself for truth spread
User was temp banned for this post.
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Flux Vanes for Void Rays will be nice addition to Toss race. ATM statistic-wise Toss is weakest of 3 races, and while EMP will help Against Terran, there is no viable change in PvZ (Upgrades cost reduction will have minimal impact on game) - While PvZ is still slightly Z favored.
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I honestly don't know how non-pro terrans (low-mid masters) are supposed to beat protoss after this patch now. This game is getting insanely hard for terran to play. We're expected to do soooooooooo many things micro-wise in a TvP battle just to combat the a-move with storms here and there, i really am at a loss for how we're supposed to do this with EMP getting nerfed as well.
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Want all the protoss nerf to be un-nerfed. Start with Khaydarin Amulet, then proceed to Flux Vanes.
The units themselves have been nerfed heavily, we want our upgrades back.
The nerf to amulet really halted frequent templar usage, now protoss always go colossus for aoe. Once in awhile, you see templar tech. 
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Me as Protoss Player can only agree with this patch it's been long since needed...
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I'll gladly accept these changes to my protoss potato arsenal.
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On November 04 2011 02:17 Serashin wrote:Something is missing in this patch , wich should have been added in previous patches already. It is .. Basicly this important upgrade for the Voidray got removed while the Void Ray had very different damage and charge multiplicators , aswell as added to that the spore crawler root time , the fact that they didnt built infestors against mass voids and generaly bad engagements etc it was consindered overpowered for the Void Ray . However nowdays is the Void Ray extremly useless and i´d like my loved upgrade back. ps : no argueing about bringing Amulet back it was straight up overpowered.
If you have more arguments, this could be threadworthy!
Seriously though, Void Rays are awful now, due to having been nerfed repeatedly. The cost got raised, the armor got reduced, the damage got reduced, the speed upgrade got removed...
I don't get why it's a crime for Protoss to have a powerful unit. Void Rays were only ever as effective as other races' units. Why did Voids have to get nerfed so hard?
You could use Blizzard's logic seemingly anywhere. "Banshees hurt early-mid game Protoss too much." It's not true, nor was it true that Void Rays were too strong. I thought David Kim said he liked to err on the side of "powerful."
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Please Note:
Zerg favored (only by small margin... but still!) PvZ is not going to change. Blizzard is so focused on PvT that they completely ignored viable P problems against Z - while there is a lot of space for changes (fungal nerf, some rebalance weakening early roach against Toss, something making Zealot more useful against Zerg etc. etc.). Do we really need to wait for next patch?
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On November 04 2011 02:56 willyallthewei wrote:Show nested quote +On November 04 2011 02:54 ooozer wrote:
3 Gate speed-ray all in basiclly raped terran. that's why they removed it Back then there were also those crazy maps all of which I've forgotten the names of,where the distance by air was something like half the rush distance by ground, and there were a million destructible rocks everywhere.
Desert Oasis ?
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On November 04 2011 18:20 Brotocol wrote:Show nested quote +On November 04 2011 02:17 Serashin wrote:Something is missing in this patch , wich should have been added in previous patches already. It is .. Basicly this important upgrade for the Voidray got removed while the Void Ray had very different damage and charge multiplicators , aswell as added to that the spore crawler root time , the fact that they didnt built infestors against mass voids and generaly bad engagements etc it was consindered overpowered for the Void Ray . However nowdays is the Void Ray extremly useless and i´d like my loved upgrade back. ps : no argueing about bringing Amulet back it was straight up overpowered. If you have more arguments, this could be threadworthy! Seriously though, Void Rays are awful now, due to having been nerfed repeatedly. The cost got raised, the armor got reduced, the damage got reduced, the speed upgrade got removed... I don't get why it's a crime for Protoss to have a powerful unit. Void Rays were only ever as effective as other races' units. Why did Voids have to get nerfed so hard? You could use Blizzard's logic seemingly anywhere. "Banshees hurt early-mid game Protoss too much." It's not true, nor was it true that Void Rays were too strong. I thought David Kim said he liked to err on the side of "powerful."
Even though I'm not sure Blizzard have admitted this but it was common opinion at the time of the void ray nerf that it was mainly directed towards team games.
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On November 04 2011 18:49 Mentalizor wrote:Show nested quote +On November 04 2011 02:56 willyallthewei wrote:On November 04 2011 02:54 ooozer wrote:
3 Gate speed-ray all in basiclly raped terran. that's why they removed it Back then there were also those crazy maps all of which I've forgotten the names of,where the distance by air was something like half the rush distance by ground, and there were a million destructible rocks everywhere. Desert Oasis ?
I don't think that had a million destructible rocks though unless you played the noob version. Or maybe he was talking about several maps.
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On November 04 2011 18:50 nam nam wrote:Show nested quote +On November 04 2011 18:49 Mentalizor wrote:On November 04 2011 02:56 willyallthewei wrote:On November 04 2011 02:54 ooozer wrote:
3 Gate speed-ray all in basiclly raped terran. that's why they removed it Back then there were also those crazy maps all of which I've forgotten the names of,where the distance by air was something like half the rush distance by ground, and there were a million destructible rocks everywhere. Desert Oasis ? I don't think that had a million destructible rocks though unless you played the noob version. Or maybe he was talking about several maps.
Desert Oasis had Rocks between your natural and your counter-clockwise 3rd - which is pretty much in range of your mineral line
Edit: They were right on the ramp next to the mineral lines. This picture doesn't have it for w/e reason
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On November 04 2011 18:00 Exarian wrote:
Flux Vanes for Void Rays will be nice addition to Toss race. ATM statistic-wise Toss is weakest of 3 races, and while EMP will help Against Terran, there is no viable change in PvZ (Upgrades cost reduction will have minimal impact on game) - While PvZ is still slightly Z favored.
Why are you people talking about Flux Vanes? Are they coming back in the new patch or you are all just off topic?
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On November 04 2011 18:59 Mentalizor wrote:Show nested quote +On November 04 2011 18:50 nam nam wrote:On November 04 2011 18:49 Mentalizor wrote:On November 04 2011 02:56 willyallthewei wrote:On November 04 2011 02:54 ooozer wrote:
3 Gate speed-ray all in basiclly raped terran. that's why they removed it Back then there were also those crazy maps all of which I've forgotten the names of,where the distance by air was something like half the rush distance by ground, and there were a million destructible rocks everywhere. Desert Oasis ? I don't think that had a million destructible rocks though unless you played the noob version. Or maybe he was talking about several maps. Desert Oasis had Rocks between your natural and your counter-clockwise 3rd - which is pretty much in range of your mineral line Edit: They were right on the ramp next to the mineral lines. This picture doesn't have it for w/e reason
Didn't they add those between one of the ladder seasons? Then removed the map in the next.
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Why are you people talking about Flux Vanes? Are they coming back in the new patch or you are all just off topic?
I just say something must be done in slightly Z favored ZvP to either strengthen Toss or weaken Zerg, and Flux Vanes, suggested by someone in this topic, may be one of possible solutions.
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On November 04 2011 19:08 Exarian wrote:Show nested quote +Why are you people talking about Flux Vanes? Are they coming back in the new patch or you are all just off topic? I just say something must be done in slightly Z favored ZvP to either strengthen Toss or weaken Zerg, and Flux Vanes, suggested by someone in this topic, may be one of possible solutions.
Where do you get that Z is slightly favored? All data says only Terran is favored in GM korea and biggest inbalance is seen in GSL Code S. OK, in EU they said Zergs currently have a slight favoritism, but there is no point in balancing the whole world because one region and not even the strongest one is not perfectly balanced.
Can you imagine how would GM/Masters Korea look if we balanced the game based on EU stats?!
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EPT![[image loading]](http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/252/unleddf.png/)
