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On November 03 2011 23:42 Snowbear wrote:Show nested quote +On November 03 2011 23:36 The_DarkAngelz wrote:On November 03 2011 23:29 Snowbear wrote:On November 03 2011 23:12 The_DarkAngelz wrote:On November 03 2011 23:02 Exarian wrote:HT and Archons are kinda the same . There's nothing keeping the Protoss from not morphing some templars for feedback and maybe a storm . So if you seek a counter for the Archon you need one that doesn't get killed destroyed by HT's .
Tanks in general are just bad vs Protoss . They deal a buttload of friendly fire and really struggle with Zealots that the Protoss will have if he goes heavy Archon/HT. Cloaked Banshees well are super expesive and vulnerable and build for ages. They are kinda like DT in the regard they are good when the opponent doesn't prepare for it but suck otherwise.
You always have to look at he complete picture of unit combinations you can't just look at 1 or 2 units and say no those are not what we talk about. Since in real situations those units will be your doom. In "real combat situation" Terran can use army of Marines and Thors, supported by medievacs, Tanks, Vikings and Ghosts. Before enaggement start, cloacked ghosts may cut Toss health by 50% (or by 95% for Archons) and disable casters. Vikings will probably take care of Voids/Colossi, while rest of the army will slaughter remaining Toss forces (mostly THX to marines, best DPS-To-Cost unit in the game with excellent damage scaling). I don't say Terran is in "always winning" situation (because it is not truth), but this type of engagement, even after EMP nerf, definitely look Terran-favored (even if only slightly). Most obvious fact: Terran has highest number of ranged units in game, and his ranged unit mostly outrange Zerg/Toss ranged units. In big numbers units with better range scale much, much better then units with lower/melee range. Then even if long-ranged army in is balanced against mid/short range army in small-scale battle, when numbers increase, long-ranged army get unique advantage making it, at least slightly, favored. The truth is that terran became lazy. Back when they could win like 80% of the games they looked to protoss and zerg and said "you guys have to try new strategies, macro more, micro more, use new units"...But i'm 100% sure if by miracle Terran becames under powered they will whine uppon us saying that they need to do new builds, try new units etc. And i foreseee more ghost nerf this unit is way too good for every situation...so Terran...IMPROVE, because more nerfs will came. This patch is not make that diferrence for terran winrate and terran will still be dominant even thou they are such whiners !! Yes, all terrans became lazy. IMmvp, boxer, bomber, puma, ... all lazy. It's so funny how some people think that there is anything else possible then bio. We tried it. IMmvp tried it, bomber tried it, puma tried it. It - is - not - possible. The only semi-viable composition is tank + bio, but it is still inferior to bio. Do you know what composition protoss do vs terran? Pray...and do an almost all in fast expand and try to defend it ! + Show Spoiler +Wauw, they pray :o. Then HUK and MC are awesome prayers, since the MLG final was PvP
Finaly ONE final that doesn't have a Terran...by god if every tournament doesn't end in a TvT....because it's BO-RING !
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Man, zerg needs that imobilization, othewise he cant keep up. And feedback and EMP can nulifly that pretty well...
The main thing is EMP, that does INSTANT shield damage, and danies any caster because it has the major range line !
Yes, Zerg need something making catching kiting units easier, but Fungal in it's current form is too strong. I don't say "it should be removed from game", but "It should be balanced". There are many ways of fixing it:
- reducing radius (for example to 1.5, like EMP and Storm)
- changing immobilization to speed reduction (66-75% speed reduction is more then enough)
- reducing damage (to something like 20+10 vs armored)
- turning spell into avoidable projectile (to give enemy chance to avoid spell, like Storm)
etc. etc.
IMO game will not be perfectly balanced as long as FG stay in its current form. I don't say FG is "mother of all imbalances" of course  but this spell is simply too effective, which is making playing Zerg too one-dimensional AND is overshadowing extremely limited usefulness of some Zerg units (Corruptor, hydralisk), justifying it by too strong infestor.
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Your last sentence doesn't fit the rest of your post.
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Your last sentence doesn't fit the rest of your post.[2]
User was temp banned for this post.
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On November 03 2011 23:39 Exarian wrote:
Other thing:
EMP Radius: 1.5
Psi Storm Radius: 1.5
Fungal Grow Radius: 2.2
Don't you think it need some kind of correction?
Damage x area (lets compare how many total damage each spell can potentially do)
(I removed Pi from calculations because I am looking for comparitions, not exact values only)
EMP = 1.5 * 1.5 * 100 = 225 Damage (to shields only, but also remove energy)
Psi Storm = 1.5 * 1.5 * 80 = 180 Damage (you can evade this spell and easily reduce effective damage to 50% or even 25%)
Fungal vs non-Armored = 2.2 * 2.2 * 30 = 145 Damage (Always do 100% damage, target cannot move for few seconds)
Fungal vs Armored = 2.2 * 2.2 * 40 = 194 Damage (Always do 100% damage, target cannot move for few seconds)
IMO it is clear imbalance, strongly favoring Zerg caster for no reason.Fungal on top of probably strongest secondary ability (immobilization) has greatest damaging potential (and it's damage affect not only shields...). It is also not avoidable (instant cast), and is denying micro.
Fungal growth's radius is 2.0. So 120 and 160 damage. And it's stupid to compare casters of different races based on just one spell's damage. Especially considering that ghost can EMP and snipe infestors while HT can feedback them.
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On November 03 2011 23:52 Exarian wrote:Show nested quote +
Man, zerg needs that imobilization, othewise he cant keep up. And feedback and EMP can nulifly that pretty well...
The main thing is EMP, that does INSTANT shield damage, and danies any caster because it has the major range line !
Yes, Zerg need something making catching kiting units easier, but Fungal in it's current form is too strong. I don't say "it should be removed from game", but "It should be balanced". There are many ways of fixing it: - reducing radius (for example to 1.5, like EMP and Storm) - changing immobilization to speed reduction (66-75% speed reduction is more then enough) - reducing damage (to something like 20+10 vs armored) - turning spell into avoidable projectile (to give enemy chance to avoid spell, like Storm) etc. etc. IMO game will not be balanced unless FG stay in its current form.
nice that fungal doesn't stop units but make them slower !! it'd be great, but even if fungal does too much damage, i guess it's needed !! somehow
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why were the shield prices that high in the first place?!!?
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On November 04 2011 00:01 NOTjak wrote:
why were the shield prices that high in the first place?!!?
Because ALL units & buildings benefit from it.
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On November 04 2011 00:01 NOTjak wrote:
why were the shield prices that high in the first place?!!?
Because it has synergy with buildings and EVERY protoss unit...
but that leaves a hell of upgrade gap for protoss !!
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On November 04 2011 00:01 NOTjak wrote:
why were the shield prices that high in the first place?!!?
Because they affect absolutely everything, from buildings, to ground, to air.
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Some interesting things with Stalker VS Marines is how armor/shield upgrades compare if you engange multiple times.
Let's say you engage for 16 marine attacks before you get away.
A +1 armor stalker would take 80 shield damage and 16 health damage
A +1 shield stalker would take 80 shiled damage and 6 health damage
If they wait to re-engage until full shields, the +1 armor stalker could engage 5 times before dying, while the +1 shield stalker could engage 14 times before dying.
Another way of looking at it is how long the Stalker can engage without taking health damage vs marines. It's basically 6/5, or 20% longer. This again lets the stalker do roughly 20% more damage before running or blinking away.
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The window where you could have +1 shields done and be attacking against mainly pure marine, and in a way where you can easily retreat stalkers that have tanked damage, is fairly narrow. Through the midgame, +1 armour helps you keep your stalkers alive longer just by letting your zealots take more hits.
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On November 04 2011 00:26 blackbrrd wrote:
Some interesting things with Stalker VS Marines is how armor/shield upgrades compare if you engange multiple times.
Let's say you engage for 16 marine attacks before you get away.
A +1 armor stalker would take 80 shield damage and 16 health damage
A +1 shield stalker would take 80 shiled damage and 6 health damage
If they wait to re-engage until full shields, the +1 armor stalker could engage 5 times before dying, while the +1 shield stalker could engage 14 times before dying.
Another way of looking at it is how long the Stalker can engage without taking health damage vs marines. It's basically 6/5, or 20% longer. This again lets the stalker do roughly 20% more damage before running or blinking away.
Once people become more anal about saving each unit, I think shields will be more popular. Its kind of like how in TvZ +1 infantry is better then armor if you can stutter micro.
The only issue is that conc kind of negates any hit run tactic by Protoss until blink kicks in.
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On November 04 2011 00:41 GinDo wrote:Show nested quote +On November 04 2011 00:26 blackbrrd wrote:
Some interesting things with Stalker VS Marines is how armor/shield upgrades compare if you engange multiple times.
Let's say you engage for 16 marine attacks before you get away.
A +1 armor stalker would take 80 shield damage and 16 health damage
A +1 shield stalker would take 80 shiled damage and 6 health damage
If they wait to re-engage until full shields, the +1 armor stalker could engage 5 times before dying, while the +1 shield stalker could engage 14 times before dying.
Another way of looking at it is how long the Stalker can engage without taking health damage vs marines. It's basically 6/5, or 20% longer. This again lets the stalker do roughly 20% more damage before running or blinking away. Once people become more anal about saving each unit, I think shields will be more popular. Its kind of like how in TvZ +1 infantry is better then armor if you can stutter micro. The only issue is that conc kind of negates any hit run tactic by Protoss until blink kicks in.
Yeah I wonder how PvT would look without conc shells. I think we would see a lot more agressive Protoss play.
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On November 03 2011 23:47 The_DarkAngelz wrote:Show nested quote +On November 03 2011 23:42 Snowbear wrote:On November 03 2011 23:36 The_DarkAngelz wrote:On November 03 2011 23:29 Snowbear wrote:On November 03 2011 23:12 The_DarkAngelz wrote:On November 03 2011 23:02 Exarian wrote:HT and Archons are kinda the same . There's nothing keeping the Protoss from not morphing some templars for feedback and maybe a storm . So if you seek a counter for the Archon you need one that doesn't get killed destroyed by HT's .
Tanks in general are just bad vs Protoss . They deal a buttload of friendly fire and really struggle with Zealots that the Protoss will have if he goes heavy Archon/HT. Cloaked Banshees well are super expesive and vulnerable and build for ages. They are kinda like DT in the regard they are good when the opponent doesn't prepare for it but suck otherwise.
You always have to look at he complete picture of unit combinations you can't just look at 1 or 2 units and say no those are not what we talk about. Since in real situations those units will be your doom. In "real combat situation" Terran can use army of Marines and Thors, supported by medievacs, Tanks, Vikings and Ghosts. Before enaggement start, cloacked ghosts may cut Toss health by 50% (or by 95% for Archons) and disable casters. Vikings will probably take care of Voids/Colossi, while rest of the army will slaughter remaining Toss forces (mostly THX to marines, best DPS-To-Cost unit in the game with excellent damage scaling). I don't say Terran is in "always winning" situation (because it is not truth), but this type of engagement, even after EMP nerf, definitely look Terran-favored (even if only slightly). Most obvious fact: Terran has highest number of ranged units in game, and his ranged unit mostly outrange Zerg/Toss ranged units. In big numbers units with better range scale much, much better then units with lower/melee range. Then even if long-ranged army in is balanced against mid/short range army in small-scale battle, when numbers increase, long-ranged army get unique advantage making it, at least slightly, favored. The truth is that terran became lazy. Back when they could win like 80% of the games they looked to protoss and zerg and said "you guys have to try new strategies, macro more, micro more, use new units"...But i'm 100% sure if by miracle Terran becames under powered they will whine uppon us saying that they need to do new builds, try new units etc. And i foreseee more ghost nerf this unit is way too good for every situation...so Terran...IMPROVE, because more nerfs will came. This patch is not make that diferrence for terran winrate and terran will still be dominant even thou they are such whiners !! Yes, all terrans became lazy. IMmvp, boxer, bomber, puma, ... all lazy. It's so funny how some people think that there is anything else possible then bio. We tried it. IMmvp tried it, bomber tried it, puma tried it. It - is - not - possible. The only semi-viable composition is tank + bio, but it is still inferior to bio. Do you know what composition protoss do vs terran? Pray...and do an almost all in fast expand and try to defend it ! + Show Spoiler +Wauw, they pray :o. Then HUK and MC are awesome prayers, since the MLG final was PvP Finaly ONE final that doesn't have a Terran...by god if every tournament doesn't end in a TvT....because it's BO-RING !
MMA vs MVP was far more entertaining than anything any other race has produced in a finals.
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On November 04 2011 00:57 Talack wrote:Show nested quote +On November 03 2011 23:47 The_DarkAngelz wrote:On November 03 2011 23:42 Snowbear wrote:On November 03 2011 23:36 The_DarkAngelz wrote:On November 03 2011 23:29 Snowbear wrote:On November 03 2011 23:12 The_DarkAngelz wrote:On November 03 2011 23:02 Exarian wrote:HT and Archons are kinda the same . There's nothing keeping the Protoss from not morphing some templars for feedback and maybe a storm . So if you seek a counter for the Archon you need one that doesn't get killed destroyed by HT's .
Tanks in general are just bad vs Protoss . They deal a buttload of friendly fire and really struggle with Zealots that the Protoss will have if he goes heavy Archon/HT. Cloaked Banshees well are super expesive and vulnerable and build for ages. They are kinda like DT in the regard they are good when the opponent doesn't prepare for it but suck otherwise.
You always have to look at he complete picture of unit combinations you can't just look at 1 or 2 units and say no those are not what we talk about. Since in real situations those units will be your doom. In "real combat situation" Terran can use army of Marines and Thors, supported by medievacs, Tanks, Vikings and Ghosts. Before enaggement start, cloacked ghosts may cut Toss health by 50% (or by 95% for Archons) and disable casters. Vikings will probably take care of Voids/Colossi, while rest of the army will slaughter remaining Toss forces (mostly THX to marines, best DPS-To-Cost unit in the game with excellent damage scaling). I don't say Terran is in "always winning" situation (because it is not truth), but this type of engagement, even after EMP nerf, definitely look Terran-favored (even if only slightly). Most obvious fact: Terran has highest number of ranged units in game, and his ranged unit mostly outrange Zerg/Toss ranged units. In big numbers units with better range scale much, much better then units with lower/melee range. Then even if long-ranged army in is balanced against mid/short range army in small-scale battle, when numbers increase, long-ranged army get unique advantage making it, at least slightly, favored. MC vs Puma was pretty good IMO. The truth is that terran became lazy. Back when they could win like 80% of the games they looked to protoss and zerg and said "you guys have to try new strategies, macro more, micro more, use new units"...But i'm 100% sure if by miracle Terran becames under powered they will whine uppon us saying that they need to do new builds, try new units etc. And i foreseee more ghost nerf this unit is way too good for every situation...so Terran...IMPROVE, because more nerfs will came. This patch is not make that diferrence for terran winrate and terran will still be dominant even thou they are such whiners !! Yes, all terrans became lazy. IMmvp, boxer, bomber, puma, ... all lazy. It's so funny how some people think that there is anything else possible then bio. We tried it. IMmvp tried it, bomber tried it, puma tried it. It - is - not - possible. The only semi-viable composition is tank + bio, but it is still inferior to bio. Do you know what composition protoss do vs terran? Pray...and do an almost all in fast expand and try to defend it ! + Show Spoiler +Wauw, they pray :o. Then HUK and MC are awesome prayers, since the MLG final was PvP Finaly ONE final that doesn't have a Terran...by god if every tournament doesn't end in a TvT....because it's BO-RING ! MMA vs MVP was far more entertaining than anything any other race has produced in a finals.
User was warned for this post
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On November 04 2011 00:57 Talack wrote:Show nested quote +On November 03 2011 23:47 The_DarkAngelz wrote:On November 03 2011 23:42 Snowbear wrote:On November 03 2011 23:36 The_DarkAngelz wrote:On November 03 2011 23:29 Snowbear wrote:On November 03 2011 23:12 The_DarkAngelz wrote:On November 03 2011 23:02 Exarian wrote:HT and Archons are kinda the same . There's nothing keeping the Protoss from not morphing some templars for feedback and maybe a storm . So if you seek a counter for the Archon you need one that doesn't get killed destroyed by HT's .
Tanks in general are just bad vs Protoss . They deal a buttload of friendly fire and really struggle with Zealots that the Protoss will have if he goes heavy Archon/HT. Cloaked Banshees well are super expesive and vulnerable and build for ages. They are kinda like DT in the regard they are good when the opponent doesn't prepare for it but suck otherwise.
You always have to look at he complete picture of unit combinations you can't just look at 1 or 2 units and say no those are not what we talk about. Since in real situations those units will be your doom. In "real combat situation" Terran can use army of Marines and Thors, supported by medievacs, Tanks, Vikings and Ghosts. Before enaggement start, cloacked ghosts may cut Toss health by 50% (or by 95% for Archons) and disable casters. Vikings will probably take care of Voids/Colossi, while rest of the army will slaughter remaining Toss forces (mostly THX to marines, best DPS-To-Cost unit in the game with excellent damage scaling). I don't say Terran is in "always winning" situation (because it is not truth), but this type of engagement, even after EMP nerf, definitely look Terran-favored (even if only slightly). Most obvious fact: Terran has highest number of ranged units in game, and his ranged unit mostly outrange Zerg/Toss ranged units. In big numbers units with better range scale much, much better then units with lower/melee range. Then even if long-ranged army in is balanced against mid/short range army in small-scale battle, when numbers increase, long-ranged army get unique advantage making it, at least slightly, favored. The truth is that terran became lazy. Back when they could win like 80% of the games they looked to protoss and zerg and said "you guys have to try new strategies, macro more, micro more, use new units"...But i'm 100% sure if by miracle Terran becames under powered they will whine uppon us saying that they need to do new builds, try new units etc. And i foreseee more ghost nerf this unit is way too good for every situation...so Terran...IMPROVE, because more nerfs will came. This patch is not make that diferrence for terran winrate and terran will still be dominant even thou they are such whiners !! Yes, all terrans became lazy. IMmvp, boxer, bomber, puma, ... all lazy. It's so funny how some people think that there is anything else possible then bio. We tried it. IMmvp tried it, bomber tried it, puma tried it. It - is - not - possible. The only semi-viable composition is tank + bio, but it is still inferior to bio. Do you know what composition protoss do vs terran? Pray...and do an almost all in fast expand and try to defend it ! + Show Spoiler +Wauw, they pray :o. Then HUK and MC are awesome prayers, since the MLG final was PvP Finaly ONE final that doesn't have a Terran...by god if every tournament doesn't end in a TvT....because it's BO-RING ! MMA vs MVP was far more entertaining than anything any other race has produced in a finals.
Poor human !
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On November 04 2011 00:53 blackbrrd wrote:Show nested quote +On November 04 2011 00:41 GinDo wrote:On November 04 2011 00:26 blackbrrd wrote:
Some interesting things with Stalker VS Marines is how armor/shield upgrades compare if you engange multiple times.
Let's say you engage for 16 marine attacks before you get away.
A +1 armor stalker would take 80 shield damage and 16 health damage
A +1 shield stalker would take 80 shiled damage and 6 health damage
If they wait to re-engage until full shields, the +1 armor stalker could engage 5 times before dying, while the +1 shield stalker could engage 14 times before dying.
Another way of looking at it is how long the Stalker can engage without taking health damage vs marines. It's basically 6/5, or 20% longer. This again lets the stalker do roughly 20% more damage before running or blinking away. Once people become more anal about saving each unit, I think shields will be more popular. Its kind of like how in TvZ +1 infantry is better then armor if you can stutter micro. The only issue is that conc kind of negates any hit run tactic by Protoss until blink kicks in. Yeah I wonder how PvT would look without conc shells. I think we would see a lot more agressive Protoss play.
More awesome with more micro and rewarding the player with better control?
I always wanted to see conc shell have a cool down. Nothing crazy, but something that would allow a unit to escape unless the terran timed the shots, rather than just click and wait.
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Something is missing in this patch , wich should have been added in previous patches already.
It is ..
![[image loading]](http://img252.imageshack.us/img252/8571/unleddf.png)
Basicly this important upgrade for the Voidray got removed while the Void Ray had very different damage and charge multiplicators , aswell as added to that the spore crawler root time , the fact that they didnt built infestors against mass voids and generaly bad engagements etc it was consindered overpowered for the Void Ray .
However nowdays is the Void Ray extremly useless and i´d like my loved upgrade back.
ps : no argueing about bringing Amulet back it was straight up overpowered.
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EPT![[image loading]](http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/252/unleddf.png/)
