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s3rp
Germany3192 Posts
On November 03 2011 22:32 FreshVegetables wrote: I've seen many good Terrans EMP their thors  Which mean you still need Ghosts ....... . And even without energy they are not that good . There is a reason he is kinda removed/changed in HoTs . Its just a badly designed unit . Its decents as support vs Mutas and some other air but thats about it . | ||
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Manimal_pro
Romania991 Posts
IMO feedback should be capped to 100 dmg / 100 energy just like EMP | ||
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Exarian
Poland58 Posts
Are you insane you know where Archons come from ? HT's and you know what instantly deals up to 200 Damage to Thors ? Feedback and you can' t even spend your Energy on anything to not get feebacked . Thor with Energy just suck vs Toss. So problem is Archon or HT? I thought we are seeking non-ghost counter to ARCHON, not HT. I don't understand how Terran cannot counter HTs. If you are using ghosts, then both EMP (even nerfed) and Snipe are hardcounters to HTs. If you don't want to use Ghost, Siege Tanks still heavy outrange HTs feedback, and 3 Tanks one-shoot HT. Cloaked Banchees, after eliminating Observer, are another safe counter. I am not very experienced player, and I play mostly Zerg, but I simply don't understand how Terran can have such problems with Archons (or even HTs). thors get raped by blink stalker flanking anyway, and if you go bio mech you will be so fucking behind on upgrades it's no contest..... the only real play style you can encompass as terran going for a macro game is mass bio with viking ghost and going for drops to get ahead. So problem are Stalkers now? Guys... You say "Terran has no counter to Archon other then Ghost" I say "Thor" You say "But HT will kill Thor" Then I say "Banchee/Siege Tank" Then you say "But Blink Stalkers can flank..." So what is the problem? Archons? Or entire Toss race? (BTW actually statistics say Toss are everything but not OP, ESPECIALLY vs Terran) You mean you cannot counter certain tactic, or you cannot win against entire race, because enemy is able to do tech switch or build counter to your counter? There is always counter to counter-tactic, and even this counter tactic can be countered by another counterable tactic... Terran is able to safely counter HTs, Archons and Stalkers, but he cannot expect Toss sitting, spamming same units and waiting for your respond (and vice versa, of course). Don't get me wrong, it's not offense, I think some people don't believe in their skills and want C&C style one-click wonders saving their *** even if their failed in either micro or macro. | ||
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ETisME
12904 Posts
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s3rp
Germany3192 Posts
On November 03 2011 22:37 Exarian wrote: So problem is Archon or HT? I thought we are seeking non-ghost counter to ARCHON, not HT. I don't understand how Terran cannot counter HTs. If you are using ghosts, then both EMP (even nerfed) and Snipe are hardcounters to HTs. If you don't want to use Ghost, Siege Tanks still heavy outrange HTs feedback, and 3 Tanks one-shoot HT. Cloaked Banchees, after eliminating Observer, are another safe counter. I am not very experienced player, and I play mostly Zerg, but I simply don't understand how Terran can have such problems with Archons (or even HTs). HT and Archons are kinda the same . There's nothing keeping the Protoss from not morphing some templars for feedback and maybe a storm . So if you seek a counter for the Archon you need one that doesn't get killed destroyed by HT's . Tanks in general are just bad vs Protoss . They deal a buttload of friendly fire and really struggle with Zealots that the Protoss will have if he goes heavy Archon/HT. Cloaked Banshees well are super expesive and vulnerable and build for ages. They are kinda like DT in the regard they are good when the opponent doesn't prepare for it but suck otherwise. You always have to look at he complete picture of unit combinations you can't just look at 1 or 2 units and say no those are not what we talk about. Since in real situations those units will be your doom. And if you do that and play and watch alot you will come to the conclusion that the MMM/Ghost/Viking is the only viable Units combination as a Terran in Macrogames . IT's the only unit combo that does at least ok against anything , the rest have big downfalls. And it's almost impossible to really techswitch as a Terran since you'll be need a buttload of new different production facilities and you will be behind in upgrades . So to really techswitch as a Terran you'd need alot of time and spare resources to spend which in most cases you just won't get. You can't just stale a toss after a big battle he'll reproduce superfast from his masses of gateways and if you don't produce from Rax you won't produce very fast ... Thors btw don't get only owned by stalkers they get owned by just about anything the Protoss has besides Phoenix and Sentrys if those units reach the right numbers. Thors are super slow and almost impossible to replace if lost in bigger numbers. | ||
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Cibron
Sweden253 Posts
On November 03 2011 22:37 Exarian wrote: So problem is Archon or HT? I thought we are seeking non-ghost counter to ARCHON, not HT. I don't understand how Terran cannot counter HTs. If you are using ghosts, then both EMP (even nerfed) and Snipe are hardcounters to HTs. If you don't want to use Ghost, Siege Tanks still heavy outrange HTs feedback, and 3 Tanks one-shoot HT. Cloaked Banchees, after eliminating Observer, are another safe counter. I am not very experienced player, and I play mostly Zerg, but I simply don't understand how Terran can have such problems with Archons (or even HTs). So problem are Stalkers now? Guys... You say "Terran has no counter to Archon other then Ghost" I say "Thor" You say "But HT will kill Thor" Then I say "Banchee/Siege Tank" Then you say "But Blink Stalkers..." So what is the problem? Archons or entire Toss race? You mean you cannot counter certain tactic, or you cannot win against entire race, because enemy is able to do tech switch or build counter to your counter? There is always counter to counter-tactic, and even this counter tactic can be countered by another counterable tactic... Terran is able to safely counter HTs, Archons and Stalkers, but he cannot expect Toss sitting, spamming same units and waiting for your respond (and vice versa, of course). Don't get me wrong, it's not offense, I think some people don't believe in their skills and want C&C style one-click wonders saving their *** even if their failed in either micro or macro. Siegetanks suck by and large in TvP. Stalkers are NOT a problem, mobility is. You can't go for thors until you have 2-2 bio because of the danger of falling behind in upgrages and then you're only adding few thors if he goes nuts on collossus. Archons can be in the game from 8:00 and onward due to DT so trust me when I say this : mech doesn't work well in general... | ||
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Exarian
Poland58 Posts
HT and Archons are kinda the same . There's nothing keeping the Protoss from not morphing some templars for feedback and maybe a storm . So if you seek a counter for the Archon you need one that doesn't get killed destroyed by HT's . Tanks in general are just bad vs Protoss . They deal a buttload of friendly fire and really struggle with Zealots that the Protoss will have if he goes heavy Archon/HT. Cloaked Banshees well are super expesive and vulnerable and build for ages. They are kinda like DT in the regard they are good when the opponent doesn't prepare for it but suck otherwise. You always have to look at he complete picture of unit combinations you can't just look at 1 or 2 units and say no those are not what we talk about. Since in real situations those units will be your doom. In "real combat situation" Terran can use army of Marines and Thors, supported by medievacs, Tanks, Vikings and Ghosts. Before enaggement start, cloacked ghosts may cut Toss health by 50% (or by 95% for Archons) and disable casters. Vikings will probably take care of Voids/Colossi, while rest of the army will slaughter remaining Toss forces (mostly THX to marines, best DPS-To-Cost unit in the game with excellent damage scaling). I don't say Terran is in "always winning" situation (because it is not truth), but this type of engagement, even after EMP nerf, definitely look Terran-favored (even if only slightly). Most obvious fact: Terran has highest number of ranged units in game, and his ranged unit mostly outrange Zerg/Toss ranged units. In big numbers units with better range scale much, much better then units with lower/melee range. Then even if long-ranged army in is balanced against mid/short range army in small-scale battle, when numbers increase, long-ranged army get unique advantage making it, at least slightly, favored. | ||
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The_DarkAngelz
Brazil221 Posts
On November 03 2011 23:02 Exarian wrote: In "real combat situation" Terran can use army of Marines and Thors, supported by medievacs, Tanks, Vikings and Ghosts. Before enaggement start, cloacked ghosts may cut Toss health by 50% (or by 95% for Archons) and disable casters. Vikings will probably take care of Voids/Colossi, while rest of the army will slaughter remaining Toss forces (mostly THX to marines, best DPS-To-Cost unit in the game with excellent damage scaling). I don't say Terran is in "always winning" situation (because it is not truth), but this type of engagement, even after EMP nerf, definitely look Terran-favored (even if only slightly). Most obvious fact: Terran has highest number of ranged units in game, and his ranged unit mostly outrange Zerg/Toss ranged units. In big numbers units with better range scale much, much better then units with lower/melee range. Then even if long-ranged army in is balanced against mid/short range army in small-scale battle, when numbers increase, long-ranged army get unique advantage making it, at least slightly, favored. The truth is that terran became lazy. Back when they could win like 80% of the games they looked to protoss and zerg and said "you guys have to try new strategies, macro more, micro more, use new units"...But i'm 100% sure if by miracle Terran becames under powered they will whine uppon us saying that they need to do new builds, try new units etc. And i foreseee more ghost nerf this unit is way too good for every situation...so Terran...IMPROVE, because more nerfs will came. This patch is not make that diferrence for terran winrate and terran will still be dominant even thou they are such whiners !! | ||
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Rannasha
Netherlands2398 Posts
On November 03 2011 23:02 Exarian wrote: In "real combat situation" Terran can use army of Marines and Thors, supported by medievacs, Tanks, Vikings and Ghosts. Before enaggement start, cloacked ghosts may cut Toss health by 50% (or by 95% for Archons) and disable casters. Vikings will probably take care of Voids/Colossi, while rest of the army will slaughter remaining Toss forces (mostly THX to marines, best DPS-To-Cost unit in the game with excellent damage scaling). I don't say Terran is in "always winning" situation (because it is not truth), but this type of engagement, even after EMP nerf, definitely look Terran-favored (even if only slightly). The theorycraft is nice and all, but not much connected with the ingame reality. Compared to the standard MMMGV composition, your composition replaces Marauders by Tanks and Thors. That means you're replacing units that cost 100/25 by units costing 150/125 and 300/200. In other words: gas-requirements go through the roof. That means your overall army will be significantly smaller or you'll lag behind on upgrades. Upgrades are another reason why MMMGV just works and bio-mech comps do not, only 1 upgrade-path to invest in. Your suggested composition needs good bio and vehicle upgrades in the mid- to late game. Which simply won't work due to the gas cost. | ||
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Manimal_pro
Romania991 Posts
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The_DarkAngelz
Brazil221 Posts
On November 03 2011 23:13 Manimal_pro wrote: after this patch hits, with such a large protoss buff i swear to god i will 1-1-1 on every map, any location See? this is not even a buff...it's a correction patch... lets take two ground units from protoss and terran and make both plus 3/3 for terran and 3/3/3 for protoss ONly when they are iqual in 3/3 and 3/3/3 armies have "same power" even thou terran earns more dps with the upgrades(but lets forget about this and analise only the costs of this upgrades) terran has spent: -570 x 2 = 1140 seconds in upgrade research, -525 x 2 = 1050 minerals -525 x 2 = 1050 vespeine gas -Protoss has spent: -570 x 2 = 1140 + 570 (for Shields) = 1710 seconds in upgrade research -525 x 2 = 1050 + 900 (for Shields) = 1950 minerals -525 x 2 = 1050 + 900 (for Shields) = 1950 vespeine gas Time and resources to maximize protoss upgrades almost DOUBLES just for catching 3/3 other races upgrades so...protoss is in situation where he have a big gap....and by "a big gap" i mean BIG GAP !!! just read this thread and u'll know a little more... http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=279695 tnx ! | ||
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Sphen5117
United States413 Posts
On November 03 2011 22:34 Manimal_pro wrote: thors get raped by blink stalker flanking anyway, and if you go bio mech you will be so fucking behind on upgrades it's no contest..... the only real play style you can encompass as terran going for a macro game is mass bio with viking ghost and going for drops to get ahead. IMO feedback should be capped to 100 dmg / 100 energy just like EMP That would make no sense since EMP is area-of-effect as opposed to single target, and comes from a unit that is faster, has longer range on the spell, and CAN GO INVISIBLE. This patch doesn't do enough to fix EMP. EMP is still the single most powerful spell in the game against protoss. And your bio style, btw, scales better with every upgrade you get than the protoss army does. Not to mention medvacs make each armor upgrade worth its weight in gold. | ||
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Sphen5117
United States413 Posts
On November 03 2011 23:13 Manimal_pro wrote: after this patch hits, with such a large protoss buff i swear to god i will 1-1-1 on every map, any location Are you kidding? You can still utilize only 2 upgades to max out your entire fighting army. I wish I could mass gateway units and for them to only need two upgrades to be optimized. | ||
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Sphen5117
United States413 Posts
On November 03 2011 22:55 Cibron wrote: Siegetanks suck by and large in TvP. Stalkers are NOT a problem, mobility is. You can't go for thors until you have 2-2 bio because of the danger of falling behind in upgrages and then you're only adding few thors if he goes nuts on collossus. Archons can be in the game from 8:00 and onward due to DT so trust me when I say this : mech doesn't work well in general... It's stupid to consistently use DT's to make archons. It's often only done if there are dt's out and they get detection. Mobility? Drops, sir. Medvac drops will always be MUCH more efficient than warp prism drops, due to them holding more effective dps in terms of units, and being able to heal (which ALSO makes them a unit that is HUGELY useful in an actual army fight, unlike Warpprisms, who's best goal is to load up ht's, then drop, then storm, hoping they didn't save an EMP for them. (not exactly as simple as having your medvac follow your army and just passively make it awesome, eh)) | ||
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Snowbear
Korea (South)1925 Posts
On November 03 2011 23:12 The_DarkAngelz wrote: The truth is that terran became lazy. Back when they could win like 80% of the games they looked to protoss and zerg and said "you guys have to try new strategies, macro more, micro more, use new units"...But i'm 100% sure if by miracle Terran becames under powered they will whine uppon us saying that they need to do new builds, try new units etc. And i foreseee more ghost nerf this unit is way too good for every situation...so Terran...IMPROVE, because more nerfs will came. This patch is not make that diferrence for terran winrate and terran will still be dominant even thou they are such whiners !! Yes, all terrans became lazy. IMmvp, boxer, bomber, puma, ... all lazy. It's so funny how some people think that there is anything else possible then bio. We tried it. IMmvp tried it, bomber tried it, puma tried it. It - is - not - possible. The only semi-viable composition is tank + bio, but it is still inferior to bio. Do you guys really think that we are having fun with bio? It's random and boring. | ||
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The_DarkAngelz
Brazil221 Posts
On November 03 2011 23:29 Snowbear wrote: Yes, all terrans became lazy. IMmvp, boxer, bomber, puma, ... all lazy. It's so funny how some people think that there is anything else possible then bio. We tried it. IMmvp tried it, bomber tried it, puma tried it. It - is - not - possible. The only semi-viable composition is tank + bio, but it is still inferior to bio. I'm not saying that is a final solution, BUT, in the times of 1-1-1 Terran only said things like "improve, use new units, etc" so we are in the same boat...but i dont understand what are u talking about...Terran still has the majority of wins, terran has won most tournaments this year, Terran is the most race by far in GSL...i don't know what's that dificulty that u saying!!! Terran is the perfect race, other races that are trying to catch up...i wish protoss have so many openings as terran do have, so many options...i wish that i could make only zealot sentry stalker ALL game and it WORKS, lol | ||
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The_DarkAngelz
Brazil221 Posts
On November 03 2011 23:29 Snowbear wrote: Yes, all terrans became lazy. IMmvp, boxer, bomber, puma, ... all lazy. It's so funny how some people think that there is anything else possible then bio. We tried it. IMmvp tried it, bomber tried it, puma tried it. It - is - not - possible. The only semi-viable composition is tank + bio, but it is still inferior to bio. Do you know what composition protoss do vs terran? Pray...and do an almost all in fast expand and try to defend it ! | ||
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Exarian
Poland58 Posts
EMP Radius: 1.5 Psi Storm Radius: 1.5 Fungal Grow Radius: 2.2 Don't you think it need some kind of correction? Damage x area (lets compare how many total damage each spell can potentially do) (I removed Pi from calculations because I am looking for comparitions, not exact values only) EMP = 1.5 * 1.5 * 100 = 225 Damage (to shields only, but also remove energy) Psi Storm = 1.5 * 1.5 * 80 = 180 Damage (you can evade this spell and easily reduce effective damage to 50% or even 25%) Fungal vs non-Armored = 2.2 * 2.2 * 30 = 145 Damage (Always do 100% damage, target cannot move for few seconds) Fungal vs Armored = 2.2 * 2.2 * 40 = 194 Damage (Always do 100% damage, target cannot move for few seconds) IMO it is clear imbalance, strongly favoring Zerg caster for no reason.Fungal on top of probably strongest secondary ability (immobilization) has greatest damaging potential (and it's damage affect not only shields...). It is also not avoidable (instant cast), and is denying micro. | ||
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Snowbear
Korea (South)1925 Posts
On November 03 2011 23:36 The_DarkAngelz wrote: Do you know what composition protoss do vs terran? Pray...and do an almost all in fast expand and try to defend it ! + Show Spoiler + Wauw, they pray :o. Then HUK and MC are awesome prayers, since the MLG final was PvP | ||
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The_DarkAngelz
Brazil221 Posts
On November 03 2011 23:39 Exarian wrote: Other thing: EMP Radius: 1.5 Psi Storm Radius: 1.5 Fungal Grow Radius: 2.2 Don't you think it need some kind of correction? Damage x area (lets compare how many total damage each spell can potentially do) (I removed Pi from calculations because I am looking for comparitions, not exact values only) EMP = 1.5 * 1.5 * 100 = 225 Damage (to shields only, but also remove energy) Psi Storm = 1.5 * 1.5 * 80 = 180 Damage (you can evade this spell and easily reduce effective damage to 50% or even 25%) Fungal vs non-Armored = 2.2 * 2.2 * 30 = 145 Damage (Always do 100% damage, target cannot move for few seconds) Fungal vs Armored = 2.2 * 2.2 * 40 = 194 Damage (Always do 100% damage, target cannot move for few seconds) IMO it is clear imbalance, strongly favoring Zerg caster for no reason.Fungal on top of probably strongest secondary ability (immobilization) has greatest damaging potential (and it's damage affect not only shields...). It is also not avoidable (instant cast), and is denying micro. Man, zerg needs that imobilization, othewise he cant keep up. And feedback and EMP can nulifly that pretty well... The main thing is EMP, that does INSTANT shield damage, and danies any caster because it has the major range line ! | ||
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